Lap sau [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

fa_jing

03-23-2003, 10:19 PM

When I learned TWC, the lap sao was to pull to the point where the elbow was on the centerline and about 1.5 fist from the chest, and the forearm pointing out about perpendicular to the practicioner's chest. I found it a good paradigm for the movement. Also when practicing in the air, the hand was to pass the ear at the start of the movement, to cover a wide area.

When I then studied regular Yip-man style, we had an inside/outside lap sao drill, with stance turning. The arm ended up in the same position as above. The area covered was a little lower, but that may have simply been due to it being a different drill.

When we applied it, the object was to jerk the opponent so that there balance was compromised and they stumbled, and at times to pull them into a strike, but always with a jerk.

I really don't think there's a big difference between the two styles' interpretations of the movement. The way to do it is the way that works.

Ultimatewingchun

03-24-2003, 10:57 AM

Okay..let's try it again...larp sao is a grag and pull across (and slightly forward, though mainly across)...because by doing this you not only start to upset his balance but you also REALLY start to take his other arm out of the picture (and therefore he now has major problems, if only for a brief moment , striking you with his other hand or turning to face you in an attempt on his part to come back to the centerline).

If you do this properly you now have (in that brief moment I just described) a better opportunity to strike him with your other hand.

By the way...by pulling across...you now have a better opportunity( than you would have had if you don't pull across) to convert the technique from say larp with your right hand and punch with your left to gum sao (pinning hand, similar to pak but more of a stiff-arm forward energy than the slapping energy associated with pak)...gum sao with your left and hit with your right if he does start to try to turn and face you, as well as now making it much more difficult for him to try to release the arm you grabbed (larp) and come under and back up and around to hook punch you.

Now can I go home and have a glass of wine? Have we finally settled this?

Phil Redmond

03-24-2003, 11:37 AM

Victor, Most people don't understand the TWC lop sao. You and I have done other versions of WC so we know the differences. And yes we do pull across with the lop so as to off balance an opponent and to limit the use of his other hand. Some people pull down. That will only open a door for the other hand to punch.
Please look at the lop sao in the Chum Kiu form on my site to see how the energy is applied.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp#top
Phil

yuanfen

03-24-2003, 11:45 AM

ultimatewingchun sez:
Okay..let's try it again...larp sao is a grag and pull across (and slightly forward, though mainly across Now can I go home and have a glass of wine? Have we finally settled this?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ultimatewingchun- you or anyone else can do it the way you want to-nothing personal.

But analytically-
in application- lots of things can happen between two persons
depending on several important variables.
However fundamentally and structurally- if you pull- a competent person with good timing can convert the pulling energy into a stepping or turning and an elbow fairly straight and crashing in.
There are other additional options open to the person being pulled including converting the pull to a takedown..

With an incompetent person- no worries.

Careful with the wine- it may play games with the lop.

tparkerkfo

03-24-2003, 11:55 AM

Hi All,

I have done two types of lap sau and I do not beielve they are mutually exlusive. Lop Sau I think transilates somehow to grabing/pulling hand. I'll leave it to the translators to give the real meaning. But I think we can all agree it is a grab and pull of sorts.

My first teacher taught us to pull the person off balance. When used with structure, you can launch the person and rip his shoulder. We practiced this quite a bit and it was very effective. But it is difficult to get just right.

My second stint in wing chun taught a very different and stil very effective lop sau. Rather than aggresivly displacing the opponent, it is more of a droping motion that causes the body to be VERY unbalanced and impossible to defend agaisnt once it is applied. It disrupts your structure at its core without displacing the body.

I think they both are valid and the same technique. At times we may want to displace and other times we dont. My first teacher taught a cool and effective counter to the pulling lap, which only requires a good stance and structure. The funny thing is both laps stem from the same source.

An added point of contention is the thumb placement. I do not use the thumb to grab around the arm, but rather keep it tucked in next to the for finger so it is on the same side of the hand as the fingers. I bet this will stir up some discussion as well. LOL.

As far as twisting, I think that is personal preference. I don't think it is a part of lap sau that we learn, but it is a valid application. I think it depends on your intent and the energy applied. You may want to turn, or you may not want to.

Just my thoughts
Tom
________
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Ultimatewingchun

03-24-2003, 11:56 AM

Yuanfen:

Do you need a hug?

Is that what this is about?

If it is ...I'm sorry, but I am a married man, and you're geographically undesirable.

And besides...I just don't like yor views about...EVERYTHING!

So there's no chance!

Good bye and good luck,

-Victor

yuanfen

03-24-2003, 01:01 PM

ultimatewingchun- sez
Dear John Letter
Yuanfen:

Do you need a hug?

((No thanks))

Is that what this is about?

((Not from my POV- strictly wing chun-the proper lop motion
is a foundation for wing chun based grappling motions- when learned well it has its uses against people from other styles))

If it is ...I'm sorry, but I am a married man, and you're geographically undesirable.

(wise guy! maturity comes late your way apparently. Geography is a fairly desireless subject)

And besides...I just don't like yor views about...EVERYTHING!

(I should think so))

So there's no chance!
((empowers your soliloquies))

Good bye and good luck,

((good bye is ok- I dont depend on luck))

03-24-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
I have done two types of lap sau and I do not beielve they are mutually exlusive. Lop Sau I think transilates somehow to grabing/pulling hand. I'll leave it to the translators to give the real meaning. But I think we can all agree it is a grab and pull of sorts.

Hmmm ... literal translations aside, I don't think that I can agree with these implications in context of my practice. Use of the terms "grab" and "pull" would have to be used very flimsily for me to agree, wrt my Wing Chun, and in context of what it means to economize and reduce vulnerabilities. I realize others do indeed pull and grab, and I used to do that myself in a former incarnation. YMMV.

My first teacher taught us to pull the person off balance. When used with structure, you can launch the person and rip his shoulder. We practiced this quite a bit and it was very effective. But it is difficult to get just right.

I actually learned to do this too, and even to some good effect on most of my training partners. The dilemma is that with a skilled opponent, or a person who is very strong relative to me (pretty much everyone), doing this leaves me far too vulnerable, and requires too much commitment. So while I once embraced it, I am perfectly content to eliminate it from my Wing Chun now.

My second stint in wing chun taught a very different and stil very effective lop sau. Rather than aggresivly displacing the opponent, it is more of a droping motion that causes the body to be VERY unbalanced and impossible to defend agaisnt once it is applied. It disrupts your structure at its core without displacing the body.

Yes, I can pretty much agree with this. The severe disruption and dropping which occurs is more an incidental yet highly desireable result, rather than primarily a dropping motion in and of itself, IMHO and IME.

I think they both are valid and the same technique.

IMHO, they are not the "same," at least in the ways I have practiced them. They may both be valid in the range of what is generally considered acceptable practiced, but both are not valid in what I consider my acceptable practice.

At times we may want to displace and other times we dont. My first teacher taught a cool and effective counter to the pulling lap, which only requires a good stance and structure.

Case in point.

The funny thing is both laps stem from the same source.

Depends on how the term "same source" is being used. Using the same body and arm can be considered the same source. Yet, and while the "technique" and position may look similar, in my experience, the nature and application of the motions is substantially different.

An added point of contention is the thumb placement. I do not use the thumb to grab around the arm, but rather keep it tucked in next to the for finger so it is on the same side of the hand as the fingers. I bet this will stir up some discussion as well. LOL.

Agreed. We don't ever use the "tiger's mouth" as it is too vulnerable (e.g., to chin na/kum na, and also instigates tightening of muscle groups that poses its own vulnerabilities). I know a lot of people do use the tiger's mouth though, so again, MMV.

Just my thoughts too, which I know plenty of people will consider to be "wrong."

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

reneritchie

03-24-2003, 02:48 PM

What is it about WCK people that, despite the art showing from say one that its all about *change*, their minds seldom if ever seem to wrap themselves around more than one method for doing anything???

Lap Sao is just Lap Sao. There is no written in stone truth to how it should be done because your opponent won't be following any similar rules.

Can you pull, yank, cross, sink, open, or do any one of a bunch of different things with Lop? Sure. You can also be *extremely* subtle. What tells you which method to employ in any given circumstance? WCK.

We're flexible. We change according to feeling. We're economical. We achieve maximum results through minimum effort.

If an attack is crude and unskilled and you touch tells you that, you don't need to waste time with any soft, hesitant, reserved, approach. Just break their structure and smash them (and yes, you can do this when you're old, watch an old WCK master fight sometime ;) )

If the attack is sophisticated and skillful, and your touch tells you that, you will have to be careful not to give anything away, to nutralize and control, and to break down the opponent step by step while maintaining your own integrity (and yes, you can do this when you're old as well, providing you've held onto your patience ;) )

WCK isn't about organization or branch dogma. When you cling to an approach you become bound to, and blinded by that approach. Of course you've all seen fantastic WCK master "prove" some certain method better than others, but fantastic WCK masters could probably prove anything they dang well want. It's not about them. Its about us, and our WCK.

Lop Sao is a grasping arm. It is about what the opponent does and what you need to do. It comes BS free and should be allowed to go the same way.

EoR

tparkerkfo

03-24-2003, 02:51 PM

Hi KJ,

OF course my choice of words probably aren't the best. By Grab and pull, I mean in the broadest sense. Since our experiences overlap a bit, I hold your method as similar to the former one I mentioned. The grab would be much more agressive in the original way we did it. The newer way I learned it is less of an active grab and pull. But it still is in the broad framework that your pulling the hand down. Argh.... or pushing. LOL. OK maybe there is a bit of a difference. Though I do think in the broad sense they are the same.

Each hand technique in my opinion has its distinct application. Indeed, using the pulling lap can by applied inccorectly as you pointed out. But I feel it still has a use. I too favor the newer one I have been exposed as I think it follows the essence of wing chun much better and seems to be applicable to smaller people against larger ones.

The source I refer to is people related. The first method comes by way of Eddie Chong and hense Ken's earlier teachings. The latter comes from Ken. I would be interested in hearing if he still advocates the other under any circumstance or not. I admit I have never seen him use it or discuss it.

Tom
________
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03-24-2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie
What is it about WCK people that, despite the art showing from say one that its all about *change*, their minds seldom if ever seem to wrap themselves around more than one method for doing anything???

If the discussion remains about pros and cons, and sharing relevant reasoning and experiences surrounding such things, I don't see any need to "label" individuals or groups at all, as 'WCK people' or otherwise.

Constructive communications can break down very quickly when we resort to "people like you" or other prejudicial references.

I just finished a bout of jury duty earlier today, so apologies if I seem compulsive about detail at the moment ... it's merely a reflection of my concern for fairness to the defendants, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

yuanfen

03-24-2003, 03:31 PM

Rene-
I was referring to the mechanics of a good lop sao as lop sao can be used in chi sao or the dummy. Not an issue of lineage at all but good mechanics as I see it..
In good art as in carpentry- measures and applications are not always the same. The specs may call for 5 inches of a piece of wood for a joint.. but when fitting and adjusting to the wood, the temperature and the humidity
variations from 5 are likely and wise.
In application one can do many things with lap sao- yank, pull etc
depending on the unique aspects of each situation.
In many wing chun discussions the distinction between good developmental motion and multiple applications clears up some but not all issues.

joy

Ultimatewingchun

03-24-2003, 05:14 PM

My final words about lop sao: the grab provides certain advantages in certain situations; and doing the same pulling across motion but not actually grabbing works better in other siuations...

BUT THE CONCEPT OF BRINGING YOUR OPPONENTS' ARM ACROSS INSTEAD OF DOWN OR IN TOWARDS YOURSELF IS THE KEY...

if you bring the arm down or towards yourself you are inviting them to elbow you, or hit you with their shoulder, or perhaps even a headbutt or a takedown.

Try it out and see for yourself...if , after that, you still don't see the logic to what I'm saying,

...then God bless you and have a nice day!

S.Teebas

03-24-2003, 05:20 PM

UltimateWingChun says:

Larp sao should be a grab and pull across...not pulling down or in toward your own body...but rather..pull across

What happens if when you pull his arm across, he is stronger and he ends up pulling your attempt to pull him (so your pull has failed due to strength issue). What would the counter be for this situation?

EnterTheWhip

03-24-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Larp sao should be a grab and pull across...not pulling down or in toward your own body...but rather..pull across Lap sao should not be a pull across. Across requires muscle power - that's not Wing Chun.

Sometimes a twist is used in TWC during larp sao with your other hand/arm going to the pressure point on his arm 2 inches higher than his elbow or sometimes right on his elbow...and then bring him straight down to the ground as a restraint or possibly a submission hold. Too many holes. It wouldn't work on someone who knows what they're doing. (Did yuanfen already say this?)

EnterTheWhip

03-24-2003, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by reneritchie
Lap Sao is just Lap Sao. There is no written in stone truth to how it should be done because your opponent won't be following any similar rules.Body mechanics are body mechanics. Sure at the end of the day we can all do whatever the **** we want and call it whatever the **** we want, but when we call ourselves "sifu" and have others do the same, we have to be careful that we're not teaching them whatever the ****, especially when we postulate so ****ing much that Wing Chun is simple, efficient and uses little or no muscle power, giving one the ability to defeat bigger and stronger apponents. (I put the astericks in myself)

We're flexible. We change according to feeling. We're economical. We achieve maximum results through minimum effort. Only via good technique. Bad technique limits one's ability to be flexible, economical, and efficient.

If an attack is crude and unskilled and you touch tells you that, you don't need to waste time with any soft, hesitant, reserved, approach. Just break their structure and smash them (and yes, you can do this when you're old, watch an old WCK master fight sometime ;) )Hmmmm.... I wonder how he got there....? Simply watching & behaving like one doesn't give you the gift.

fantastic WCK masters could probably prove anything they dang well want. Are there any?

Lop Sao is a grasping arm. It is about what the opponent does and what you need to do. It comes BS free and should be allowed to go the same way. Hypocrite?

tparkerkfo

03-24-2003, 08:11 PM

Hello Victor,

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
My final words about lop sao:

Sorry to hear your not gonna contribute more to the topic.

if you bring the arm down or towards yourself you are inviting them to elbow you, or hit you with their shoulder, or perhaps even a headbutt or a takedown.

With all due respect, this shows ignorance on your part. I don't mean your ignorant on the whole, just of different methods. Your lop works well in a certain context. I agree 100% with that.

However, I don't think you fully understand the nature of the lop sau in question. If you did, you would realize that what you said is not true. You can indeed lop sau downward with out going across the body. The key is, you have to affect the persons core. The only real difference is that the person goes downward instead of sideways. The same effect is manifested to the opponent. That same shocking power that launches the guy sideways is now going in a different direction. Well, the mechanics are a bit different, but you get the idea.

If the opponent can manage to elbow you, then your doing something wrong, and it is time to flow to a new technique. No technique is 100%. The best defense against the pull across, from my experience, is simply to raise your front foot and go with the flow. Make the guy pull your entire body weight in a good strong stance. As you are dragged a little, you then plant your foot and turn into the opponent with a crushing punch. Works every time : ) at least when practiced regularly.

Tom
________
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03-25-2003, 05:30 AM

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
By Grab and pull, I mean in the broadest sense. Since our experiences overlap a bit, I hold your method as similar to the former one I mentioned. The grab would be much more agressive in the original way we did it. The newer way I learned it is less of an active grab and pull. But it still is in the broad framework that your pulling the hand down. Argh.... or pushing. LOL. OK maybe there is a bit of a difference. Though I do think in the broad sense they are the same.

I can agree that the opponent may "feel" as if they are being strongly pulled by a great lop sau. The feeling can belie the nature of the originating movement.

The source I refer to is people related. The first method comes by way of Eddie Chong and hense Ken's earlier teachings. The latter comes from Ken. I would be interested in hearing if he still advocates the other under any circumstance or not. I admit I have never seen him use it or discuss it.

Yes, good to inquire if Ken ever advocated such a thing. As I recall, Eddie also had training elsewhere. I have never seen Ken or the other Leung Sheung students I know advocate such a pull. I think it unlikely Eddie's practice resulted from Ken's direct instruction, but if it did, I would still be interested to know if it was from Ken's first learning, or his relearning.

Again, with the lop sau and some other motions, the opponent may "feel" that they are being strongly pulled or jerked. However, the source and origin of the motions, as I know and work them, is much different from what I know as a pulling motion.

When I "pull" something" I typically use triceps, biceps, or even lean away from something I've gripped tightly utilizing weight and gravity ot overcome friction and/or gain momentum. So pulling, to me, has those connotations which contradict my Wing Chun practice.

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Lap sao should not be a pull across. Across requires muscle power - that's not Wing Chun.

I must agree with this.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

03-25-2003, 05:37 AM

Hi Tom.

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
By Grab and pull, I mean in the broadest sense. Since our experiences overlap a bit, I hold your method as similar to the former one I mentioned. The grab would be much more agressive in the original way we did it. The newer way I learned it is less of an active grab and pull. But it still is in the broad framework that your pulling the hand down. Argh.... or pushing. LOL. OK maybe there is a bit of a difference. Though I do think in the broad sense they are the same.

I agree that the opponent may "feel" as if they are being strongly pulled by a great lop sau. In my experience, the feeling can belie the nature of the originating movement.

The source I refer to is people related. The first method comes by way of Eddie Chong and hense Ken's earlier teachings. The latter comes from Ken. I would be interested in hearing if he still advocates the other under any circumstance or not. I admit I have never seen him use it or discuss it.

Yes, you might inquire. As I recall, Eddie also had training elsewhere.

Again, with the lop sau and some other motions, the opponent may "feel" that they are being strongly pulled or jerked. However, the source and origin of the motions, as I know and work them, is much different from what I know as a pulling motion.

When I "pull" something" I typically use triceps, biceps, or even lean away from something I've gripped tightly, utilizing weight and gravity to overcome friction and/or gain momentum. So pulling, to me, has those connotations which contradict my Wing Chun practice.

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Lap sao should not be a pull across. Across requires muscle power - that's not Wing Chun.

I must agree with this.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

stuartm

03-25-2003, 06:06 AM

Hi all,

Id agree with ultimatewingchun - Larp Sao should never be down - the energy should be of the 'pulling-in' description or across, and should always be used with Juen Ma - a pivot, or step.

A straight lap sau without a pivot or step will invite the attacker to defend against lap with a lan sau, bong or kwai jarn.

Think about where you train your lap sau - in Siu Lim Tao ! When you do you first punch , you open up to Tarn, huen and then lap sau withdrawing the fist to your side. I see many schools where after they huen, they withdraw their fist (lap) slowly to their side. So when are you training the energy if not here.??

I have heard some say - 'we train lap sau in lap sau drill' - fair enough, but you should have trained your lap energy long berfore that. The lap sau drill will train the action, and use of the elbow in bong, rather than the energy. SLT is about energies, particularly the first section. If you are not training energy in SLT than you are getting very little out of the form.

You should also lap in the direction of the energy. If you want to take energy down wards you should use a jut sau - not a lap. Jut is prefereable whan you are already in close contact and may not be able to use lap.

As always - just a humble opinion. Its good that we can discuss this in friendly manner - unlike some forums out there !!!

Foolinhedeck - still waiting to hear from you for some Chi Sau

Best wishes, Stuart

reneritchie

03-25-2003, 07:13 AM

If the discussion remains about pros and cons, and sharing relevant reasoning and experiences surrounding such things, I don't see any need to "label" individuals or groups at all, as 'WCK people' or otherwise.

Darnit, KJ, please don't interlope calm and reason into a good rant! 8P

I was referring to the mechanics of a good lop sao as lop sao can be used in chi sao or the dummy. Not an issue of lineage at all but good mechanics as I see it..

Good point Joy, but good people will disagree about what constitutes good mechanics (one need only look around). WCK people (for KJ 8P) tend to think theirs is the really good of good methods, of course, but its a complex equation that seems to be able to balance within a range of differently weighted variables. (ie. A3 + B2 = C5 can be as valid as A2 + B3 = C5).

In many wing chun discussions the distinction between good developmental motion and multiple applications clears up some but not all issues.

Sure, and even good developmental motion can vary by the needs/level of the individual. What does the motion need to do, what is the optimal method in the moment to do it?

BUT THE CONCEPT OF BRINGING YOUR OPPONENTS' ARM ACROSS INSTEAD OF DOWN OR IN TOWARDS YOURSELF IS THE KEY...

Victor, I would contend that Lap Sao is a core motion and crossing the opponent's center is a core tactic, and while they can be used together when the situation calls for it, each can also be used/achieved in other ways as well.

Body mechanics are body mechanics.

Yours, Ken Chung's, Chris Chan's, Hawkins Cheung's, Fung Daat's, Gary Lam's, Johnny Wong's, Emin Boztepe's, Rick Spain's? Who's body mechanics are body mechanics? All different, but I doubt any think their method is the wrong/lesser method. That leaves us with a range of interpretation (different weights arranged differently to hopefully balance similar in the end).

(I put the astericks in myself)

Thinking of the kids, man, that's good 8)

Only via good technique. Bad technique limits one's ability to be flexible, economical, and efficient.

Or the ability to be flexible and efficient constrains what can be good technique.

Hmmmm.... I wonder how he got there....? Simply watching & behaving like one doesn't give you the gift.

Natural selection? The human animal crests over time and minimal movement or expended effort becomes a need rather than a want. Those who can't evolve stagnate or become extinct (in a WCK development sense).

Are there any?

Sure. Get out more.

Hypocrite?

I prefer Yin/Yang approach 8P

Larp Sao should never be down

Stuart, Lop Sao should never be anything other than disruptive to the opponent and the method in which it can be will depend on your own cultivation. The method Victor discusses can be effective given the right timing, conditions, and opponent. The method KJ discusses likewise, but IMHO requires a greater skill level to pull off (more sensitivity and the ability to generate specific types of body power).

(Freaky flash image of Joy's sometimes quoted parable about blind men describing an elephant...)

03-25-2003, 07:40 AM

Good overall summary, René. I may even be able to overlook that last "WCK people" reference. ;)

Originally posted by reneritchie
The method Victor discusses can be effective given the right timing, conditions, and opponent. The method KJ discusses likewise, but IMHO requires a greater skill level to pull off (more sensitivity and the ability to generate specific types of body power).

Having experienced both methods of lop sau and disruption, I have to agree with this. I am not one to claim that I have chosen an easy or intuitive way of training, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2003, 08:15 AM

I am beginning to appreciate people like KenWingJitsu and some others more and more as time goes on...I'm relatively new to this website and began initially posting on the thread about sparring, very late in the thread...I've gone back and read the whole thread now after this latest business with lop sao...

The amount of time spent discussing and debating the smallest little details is ridiculous...if you want to understand what works and what doesn't work regarding lop sao then spend more time SPARRING against someone who is really trying to put up a fight , and less time doing endless amounts of chi sao and whatever other "drills' you do...

and of course lop sao is just one example of what I'm getting at.
For years I 've been telling my students that 80% of all the people they'll ever meet in the martial arts are full of sh#t.

They think they want to learn how to fight but they really don't.

Now I'm coming to the conclusion that in the world of wing chun kung fu......

it's about 90%....!!!

reneritchie

03-25-2003, 08:30 AM

Victor,

True enough. Of course, nobody thinks *they* are part of the 10% ;)

mun hung

03-25-2003, 10:10 AM

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
For years I 've been telling my students that 80% of all the people they'll ever meet in the martial arts are full of sh#t.
Now I'm coming to the conclusion that in the world of wing chun kung fu......it's about 90%....!!!

Ever think that some may feel the same about you?

tparkerkfo

03-25-2003, 10:57 AM

Victor,

I agree with part of your statement. Few people reach a high level of skill. However, how dare you suggest that those of us with a different POV than yours are not training? You don't like our way of doing it, so we don't know and we dont practice? Hmmmm...... I suppose Your methods are the only valid ones in WC?

Tom
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Sandman2[Wing Chun]

03-25-2003, 11:11 AM

Ok, before this gets any worse, please keep the discussion polite and avoid the personal insults.

Ultimatewingchun

03-25-2003, 12:36 PM

Okay...I lied...I will do one more post about lop sao.

This is for : S.Teebas
tparkerkfo
Kathy Jo
Enter the Whip

As regards the issue of not wanting to pull (or guide) your opponents' arm across because ...YOU FOLKS THINK...it leads to a strength vs. strength situation:

If you begin the lop as I'm advocating it and he starts to pull back at you ...because of your chi sao training... you should immediately FEEL his superior strength (if indeed, that's the case) and ...LET GO...RELEASE HIS FORCE...WITH HUEN SAO ( the circular movement that you do so often in the forms)...AND CHANGE INTO A DIFFERENT TECHNIQUE....USUALLY ACCOMPANIED WITH SOME CHANGE IN YOUR FOOTWORK...exactly what technique you change to will depend upon EXACTLY how he's now moving.

In other words...YOU DON'T FIGHT WITH FORCE AGAINST FORCE...you're simply re-directing his force (by releasing it) ..and then you change the line of engagement (ie.-you renew your attack on a different line!)

That's it...!!! I'm finished...!!! I'm going home. This time for a whole bottle of wine... to share with my wife!

03-25-2003, 12:44 PM

LOL. Thanks for your effort to clarify. This is a challenging medium at best for such technical expressions.

Most importantly, enjoy the wine and the company of your wife. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

reneritchie

03-25-2003, 12:47 PM

In vingtsun, veritus??

yuanfen

03-25-2003, 02:36 PM

The important thing in developing the lop motion is to find the way in which the least amount of muscle power is used.
Sometimes strength may be needed but the more skill that is developed- then less muscle and ergo a smaller person can defeat a bigger person....or atleast has a better chance than otherwise.

S.Teebas

03-25-2003, 11:57 PM

Ultimatewingchun says:

The amount of time spent discussing and debating the smallest little details is ridiculous...if you want to understand what works and what doesn't work regarding lop sao then spend more time SPARRING

I dont dissagree with sparing, but there's nothing wrong with trying to understand the small details. Small details can make big differences.

fa_jing

03-26-2003, 12:22 PM

It's interesting that what Yuanfen described against a pulling lop sao is what me Taiji friend showed me - basically, if you can lock their arm out past a critical point they will not be able to avoid losing their balance - but a really sensitive TaiJi player can borrow your force, drop down and strike you with his shoulder around your hip area. He was able to demonstrate this, however, only if I let him know the lop was coming. This was a player with about 5 years of experience. When we pushed hands, I was able to apply the lop effectively at times. Anyway, my work with him did increase my respect for Tai Chi.

reneritchie

03-26-2003, 02:47 PM

They say both god, and devil, are in the details...

(but they don't say who they are, do they??)

yuanfen

03-26-2003, 03:35 PM

Rene- it depends on whether you are a monist or a dualist!

EnterTheWhip

03-26-2003, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
LET GO...RELEASE HIS FORCE...WITH HUEN SAO ( the circular movement that you do so often in the forms)...AND CHANGE INTO A DIFFERENT TECHNIQUE....USUALLY ACCOMPANIED WITH SOME CHANGE IN YOUR FOOTWORK...exactly what technique you change to will depend upon EXACTLY how he's now moving.

In other words...YOU DON'T FIGHT WITH FORCE AGAINST FORCE...you're simply re-directing his force (by releasing it) ..and then you change the line of engagement (ie.-you renew your attack on a different line!) Is THAT how it's done....?!! You mean I've been training all this time only to discover on a forum that it is THIS simple???? A couple o' huen sau's... throw some energy here and there... switch lines a few times... oh and make sure I move my feet here and there....and poof!... I good solid execution of something or other...

t_niehoff

03-27-2003, 05:52 AM

IME our use of any "tool" - like lop sao - is informed and driven by what we personally bring with us to an encounter -- our timing, skill, sensitivity, experience, etc. One thing I've noticed about these sorts of "technical" discussions is that often folks assume that there is *one correct way* to use that tool, which - among other things - assumes that we possess perfect timing, sensitivity, skill, etc. and that every situation is the same. The fact is that there is no "correct way" for every situation as we are limited by our personal development and because every situation is different -- what will work, and how we use our tool, will depend on what is going on at that moment between combatants, their relative skill, what we bring to the table (in terms of sensitivity, timing, experience, etc.), etc. If a person is off-balance forward, a sharp pull downward can send him to the floor whereas a pull across may permit him a better chance to regain his balance -- but this assumes I have the sensitivity to feel his balance, the timing to lop at the proper time, the mechanics down so that I don't need to use muscualr exertion, etc. If I don't have these things, then perhaps a pull across, to give me "safety" may be my (personal) best option in that moment. TN

IMO our focus as students of WCK should be on first developing "the tool" so that we can use it effectively (the mechanics) and at will, then expanding our use to as many situations as possible (so we have more ammunition). This involves experimenting with the tool, seeing what works for you, when it works, how it works, and why it works. Then, to look at how others use it and see if they may have some ideas we hadn't considered -- and whether we can make them work for us. Yip Man said, "go out and test it for yourself, I may be tricking you" -- in other words, don't be bound (certainly take it into account!) by what your sifu or lineage tells you about application, but let application be your sifu. TN

Terence