Drills

[foolinthedeck]

i dont like drills.
i prefer chi sau.
i dont even see the point in some drills.

like drills?
why? have you done any chi sau?
like chi sau?
do you still value drills?

[reneritchie]

Chi Sao is a drill.

Step by step. Skip a step, maybe earn a stumble.

[foolinthedeck]

Hmm,
either your chi sau is not my chi sau or my drill is not your drill.
i'm not sure which but chi sau doesnt hang pictures on the wall...

[azwingchun]

I don't really like the idea of just doing drills myself. But there is a place for them. We use them to show how a set of applications may flow together. But then I ask my students to break them apart and look at each movement and ask themselves what else could be done in place of each moevement in the drill or any other particular movement. But I think free flow application is most important once a student gets the idea of each movement in the so-called drill. ;)

[Mckind13]

Drills are better!

Drills teach percision and create a reference point for our proper use of techniques. They also teach the proper alignment and exeqution in reference to an opponent. We need this knowledge and experience to transition properly into San Sau.

IMO.

David

[canglong]

Everyone can benefit from a little drilling in the beginning. I would reiterate that wing chun kung fu is more than just chi sao.

[sticky fingers]

Drills, however boring and seemingly pointless, allow you to work on your weak points. Chi-sau started too early produces a sloppy and one dimensional WC player.
Just watch two novices go at it in chi sau. You will see the same techniques used over and over again because they are comfortable with those and are unwilling to try their weaker moves for fear of being hit.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
i dont like drills.
i prefer chi sau.
i dont even see the point in some drills.
Maybe you need better drills, but it seems that we're back to the points made in your thread on Respect. I suspected that there was more to it than t-shirts and belt gradings.
Matrix

[anerlich]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
i dont like drills.
i prefer chi sau.
i dont even see the point in some drills.
There may be a problem with those drills ... OTOH, the problem may lie with you.


like drills?
I have found some drills very useful to develop particular skills ... moving from conscious incompetence, to conscious competence, to unconscious competence. Repetition is the mother of mastery. I do think after a while one reaches the point of diminishing returns and it is time to incorporate the skill into a more random arena like chi sao or sparring.


why? have you done any chi sau?
like chi sau?
I expect I've probably done more than you. I do like and value chi sau (which is a drill), but it is only one facet of a complete training regimen.



do you still value drills?
Yes, as above, including chi sau drills.

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by canglong
"Everyone can benefit from a little drilling in the beginning."

Whoop, there it is !!!!!!! :cool:

-David

[swordsoul]

hmm.. drills can suck, but muscle memory and being familiar with ALL possible movements is extremely important. Here's some thing my fencing teacher told me : "Everyone has the will to win, not everyone has the will to suffer to win"

love and unity,
matt

[desertwingchun2]

i dont like drills. i prefer chi sau.

Chi sao is one drill you like. What do you like about chi sao?

i dont even see the point in some drills.

Drills are empty. This may be why you dislike them. Ask your sifu what the focus of each drill is. Then you may see it's value.

like drills?

Yes.

why?

They have value

have you done any chi sau?

Yes

do you still value drills?

to the extent that every time I drill it is the first time.

[reneritchie]

I think I've posted this a couple times before but drilling in and of itself is useless. Just mindlessly/robotically going through 1000 reps does little but waste your time.

Instead, go through each rep, one at a time, and conciously make it better than the one before. In the beginning, have your sifu watch and make corrections, work on each correction, then get the next, and as time goes by you'll be able to auto-correct and introduce variance and complexity and still conciously work to improve every single rep.

Drilling is *everything* especially in the beginning. Look at some examples of martial artists who excelled. Sum Nung practiced the turning punch until he wore ditches in the tiles outside Tin Hoi restaurant, and he had his students work reps at the beginning of every class, first solo, then partner reps.

Even in modern times, people like BTT co-founded Mario Sperry have written about the importance of reps. He makes every student do at least 100 concious reps of 3 techniques before they're even allowed to take class.

Look at boxers and kick boxers, the same combos, drilled over and over again...

[t_niehoff]

From my perspective, everything we typically do in our WCK practice - forms, lop sao, chi sao, etc. - is a drill, i.e., **a skill building exercise**. Some of these exercises also, in some cases, have very significant additional aspects. Yet the point of any drill is not to learn the drill but to learn from the drill. And as our skills build, so must the drills change. So Rene is correct when he says "Drilling is everything." Gung fu is skill obtained by hard work over time -- and a major part of the hard work over time is progressive drilling.

Terence

[treestump]

Another point of view about drills is that you can train them on your own(outside of class). As posted above if you do every rep with the intent to improve yourself, you will. And these improvements will manifest themselfs in applications like lat-sao, the forms and chi-sao.

IMO people who have problems doing the basics of any art whether its becase they think they are boring, they just dont like hard work, or worse they dont respect their Sifu enough to beilive they are being taught things for a purpose might want to re-evaluate their continued practice of kung-fu

as i understand it "kung-fu" translates into english as 'Hard work' so get use to it

[foolinthedeck]

treestump wrote:


IMO people who have problems doing the basics of any art whether its becase they think they are boring, they just dont like hard work, or worse they dont respect their Sifu enough to beilive they are being taught things for a purpose might want to re-evaluate their continued practice of kung-fu

when i say i dont like drills let me say what i prefer.
when i began wing chun i did single sticky hands (dan chi sau?) for 4 hours at a time for about 6 months, then double for the nextr 6 months, i dont have a problem with 'hard work' just when i have to punch in a certain way or its 'not the drill anymore'... when i do a drill, i'm not allowed to swap legs, to change my centre evenb subtley, when someones hitting me and i have to drill a certain defence, i'm not allowed to let my body react with its learned chi sau reflexes, i have to do a particular defence for a particular attack. real life is not how things are in drills. In my expereince, and its only my exp, people who drill loads do get really good technical ability,m but change the parameters from how they originally drilled and they cannot deal with it, i find alot of people cant cope with being hit really really slowly because all their drills are at a set speed - as fast as possible.
is chi sau a drill? not in my sense of a drill being restricted to me do this you do that. i do waht i like, chi sau ios about 'play' i do the worng thing constantly, i enjoy the exp.

dont assume that just because i'm a fool and i'm willing to ask the questions
people seem to think i've done no chi sau and i know nothing because i ask. i'm interested in your opinions, how much chi sau i've done or not is irrelavant. i see an angle i exploited it.

[treestump]

dint mean to sound harsh, its just that ive delt with some bad apples

anyways back to topic

ok chi-sao is suposse to be as natural,smoot and flowing as possible, in other words your not suppose to pause mid-attack ro defense in order to check your positioning angle, ect. ect

what mind numbing drills allow you to do is to perfect your positioning and technique as much as possible in a controlled enviroment so when you do free form stuff or chi-sao your movements and positioning are as correct as possible

I think i know where your comming from though i use to hate doing the forms but after a while i started seeing how much they improved my WT.

i felt the same way about drills

now the only time i dont like doing drills or anything for that matter is when the people im working with dont take it serious or have a bad/negitive attitude.

[wingchunalex]

drills are great. If I had to pick between only doing drills or only doing chi sau, i'd choose drills. I like drills because they are what makes your wing chun second nature. Drills are the repetition that makes your wing chun become your reflexes. I view chi sau as another drill. It's a sensitivity drill. I think after about 2 to 3 years of wing chun half your time should be spent of drills and half on chi sau. (excluding forms and sparring from this discussion). most of chi sau should be done in a repetitious "drill like" format anyway. only 20 percent of chi sau practice should be free style chi sau in my oppinion. free style chi sau is useful and fun, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket if you know what I mean.

[black and blue]

At my Kwoon we practise forms, do drills, then play some Chi Sau or various other reflex drills depending on your level.

We practise drills to work on a specific aspect and to instill the oft mentioned Muscle Memory.

But that said, I was recently in class doing some drills that worked Pak Sau, and asked my Sifu a few questions. He answered the specific questions and then said:

"All of our drills are really about movement, Duncan. Sure, a Pak Sau drill is for working Pak Sau, but it's equally about your feet, your hips, your movement and angling. Think about the bigger picture. There's more to the drill than just the hand work."

So that's what I try and work in the drills...
Everything.

[yuanfen]

B & B sez:

Thinking


"All of our drills are really about movement, Duncan.

So that's what I try and work in the drills...
Everything.

-------------------------------------------
good thinking.

[stuartm]

Hi,

Rene is right - of course chi sau is a drill. The problem is that people think a drill has to be completely regimented. Not the case. Look at chi sau - in its initial stages it is undoubtedly a drill, but at gor sau stage it is free flowing applying techniques (that you first learned through drilling !!) as and when appropriate.

The most important and positive aspect of drilling is that it teaches you to build up force - both in delivering and receiving it - in a controlled manner. New comers dont come to a VT class knowing how to do chi sau do they - you teach them it through dan chi, huen, forms etc. It could even be argued that the only time you do not drill is in sparring or a full-blown fight.

Good drills also get the hand - eye - legs coordination working.

You'd be hard pushed to find a MA class on earth that doesn't - even the most 'spontaneous' and 'non-conformist' of arts drill! Boxers will work the pads in a series of rhythmic patterns, Tai Chi practitioners will use tui shou (push hands) and us folks use Chi Sau.

Wing Chun progression like any good art is attritional, and does not happen overnight. You need drills

Stu

[yuanfen]

Stu- differences in terminology. I dont regard chi sao as a drill-
it's a form of martial communication. Its never mechanical IMO.

[TjD]

sometimes you have to break things into parts before you can build them back into the correct whole.

practicing chi sau without doing drills will only reinforce your bad habits, and not allow you to truely benefit from the wealth of knowledge wing chun can give you.

just for one example:
if you've never learned and drilled bong sau/lap sau, you arent very likely to use the reflexes it teaches you in chi sau - let alone if you ever got into a fight. however, these reflexes are extremely important to using wing chun properly and have saved my butt on quite a few occasions. it takes lots of drilling and perfection to get this right - but the benefits are worth it.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Stu- differences in terminology. I dont regard chi sao as a drill-
it's a form of martial communication. Its never mechanical IMO.

Chi sao = a form of martial communication.

A very good and concise description of chi sao. I also think that chi sao is not a drill. Dan chi sao might look mechanical. But is it not mechanical.

Dan chi sao consists of one partner doing tan sao, punch, bong sao. And the other partner doing fook sao, chum sao, punch. But it is not as simple as described above. Each partner is listening for his opponent's next move. For example, the person doing fook sao must "listen" when his opponent changes his tan sao into a punch (question). Only then will he execute the chum sao as his "answer" to his opponent's punch (question). It is wrong for the person doing fook sao to execute a chum sao even if his opponent did not change his tan sao into a punch. It is like answering a question even before the question is asked.

This is my interpretation of "chi sao as a form of martial conversation".

[TjD]

Originally posted by Wingman
A very good and concise description of chi sao. I also think that chi sao is not a drill. Dan chi sao might look mechanical. But is it not mechanical.

Dan chi sao consists of one partner doing tan sao, punch, bong sao. And the other partner doing fook sao, chum sao, punch. But it is not as simple as described above. Each partner is listening for his opponent's next move. For example, the person doing fook sao must "listen" when his opponent changes his tan sao into a punch (question). Only then will he execute the chum sao as his "answer" to his opponent's punch (question). It is wrong for the person doing fook sao to execute a chum sao even if his opponent did not change his tan sao into a punch. It is like answering a question even before the question is asked.


i think you just made an excellent description of how all the wing chun drills should be practiced :) always listening, always paying attention.

[taltos]

Well stated, Wingman!

I think a lot of frustration/boredom with drills stems from not being mindful of the excercise at all times. As an example, I've been studying WC for 5+ years now, and I still learn everytime I play simple Paak Sau/Paak Da drills with my Sidai/Simui. Not just because I'm explaining or teaching, but because, as you put it, I am "listening" to the drill. If I'm throwing the punch, and my partner is playing Paak Sau, I don't have to do any fancy footwork or collapse their structure or counterattack to learn. I just feel the energy, and I note (without action) in my head when I had the line, when there was a split second of tension, when the elbow was out of position, etc. If the Sidai/Simui is at a level in their Kung Fu to understand and implement a suggestion, I'll make the suggestion.

Drills can do more that teach us the motion. When we know the motion, drills let us train sensitivity. Sure, I'm not training WHAT to do in a certain situation/condition, but I AM training to recognize WHEN that opportunity is there.

With a little modification to the way one thinks, suddenly every drill, from a student's first day to what you're currently struggling with, offers up a great opportunity to learn.

-Levi

[KenWingJitsu]

Which brings to the fore the issue of "live" drilling versus "dead" drilling. Typically,Chi-sau is "dead" drilling. Anyone wanna take a stab of what "live drilling might be? It could be derived from chi-sau...

[Ultimatewingchun]

foolinthedeck:

I'm impressed with your sincerity and I'm in sympathy with your predicament...haven't read all the responses since your post..so at the risk of perhaps repeating what someone may have already said, let me add my two cents!

You wrote the following:

"Have spent 4 hours at a time for 6 months doing dan chi sao..
4 hours at a time for 6 months doing double arm chi sao...

not allowed to swap legs..change my center..not allowed to let my body react..

Real life is not how things are in drills...people who drill loads..get good technical ability..but change the parameters..they can't deal with it..."

I can't remember how many people I've known in the 28 years that I'm involved in wing chun who fit the picture you just described....GREAT WING CHUN CHI SAO, AND WOODEN DUMMY, AND OTHER PRE-ARRANGED DRILL PRACTIONERS ...

who would get their butts kicked in a real confrontation because they have spent too much time on these 'DRILLS' and not enough time ...
ALLOWING THEIR BODIES TO REACT NATURALLY, ALLOWING THEIR FOOTWORK TO ADAPT TO WHATEVER SITUATIONS COME UP, etc. etc.

And yes, you have already spent more than enough time on single and double arm chi sao...so if your current instructor doesn't start doing other things real soon that make more sense to you...GO FIND ANOTHER WING CHUN SCHOOL!

AND LAST, BUT NOT LEAST, MY RECOMMENDATION TO YOU IS THAT IT BE A TRADITIONAL WING CHUN SCHOOL AS YOUR FIRST CHOICE...

although I'm sure there are other non-traditional wing chun schools that might provide more realistic training than what you're getting right now.

[yuanfen]

foolinthe deck-
I dont know your school or your instructor or you- so my comments aren't against a specific person.

What you describe is some sort of robotic drilling rather than knowledgeable and well supervised chi sao. People would be better off in mma if that is what they do.

Chi sao is not a drill, but is a wing chun laboratory. Newbies need to be supervised by very knowledgeable folks in the experimentation. There are stages in the development of chi sao skills. How much you move and what you move and when you move and what else you do- very much depends on the progress of skill development.

I have held for some time the view that wing chun has spread too fast and too wide to have decent quality control.

Without sustained good wing chun instruction ( if it is not available), I would investigate other arts and activities which
enhances your confidence and self defense abilities or just your health and athleticism--depending on your goals and weaknesses....

BTW, I am using the broad editorial "you" and not the personal "you".

[KenWingJitsu]

GREAT WING CHUN CHI SAO, AND WOODEN DUMMY, AND OTHER PRE-ARRANGED DRILL PRACTIONERS ...
who would get their butts kicked in a real confrontation because they have spent too much time on these 'DRILLS' and not enough time ...ALLOWING THEIR BODIES TO REACT NATURALLY, ALLOWING THEIR FOOTWORK TO ADAPT TO WHATEVER SITUATIONS COME UP, etc. etc
I concur..........hence my post about "dead" versus "live" drilling. Dead drilling leads to being good at...dead drills. Live drilling gets you good at REACTING to SPONTANEOUS attacks/situations

:D

[old jong]

Practicing drills is the same as practicing chords,arpegios and scales on a musical instrument. It makes you "sharp" for the real playing. It builds a solid technical foundation that can be used in a free way in improvisations.
BTW, the forms of Wing Chun and Chi Sau are not simple drills like practicing pak da or whatever. They are more than that in my opinion.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Forms, pak sao exercises, bong sao exercises, lop sao, one-arm and double arm chi sao are.. DRILLS.. (and in the case of forms they are simply MOVEMENTS) that do not allow for hardly any spontaneous realism. To a certain extent double arm chi sao does provide for this, but since double arm must always be done within certain somewhat limited parameters the spontaneity that chi sao provides is also limited.

Now don't get me wrong...everything I've mentioned so far (including the Wooden Dummy techniques) ...MUST BE DONE...
if you are to learn wing chun; but the real issue is... HOW MUCH OF THE ABOVE... should be done...BEFORE IT BECOMES OVERDONE ?!

Before you make the mistake of not allowing enough training time to do other things that are also so vital in terms of learning how to use WC in a fight? I'll be more specific: with the exception of the forms (which are done alone) everything I've mentioned so far are drills wherein you are...ALMOST ALWAYS MAINTAINING CONTACT...with your opponents body (ie.- his arms) and when contact is broken you are still...ALWAYS CLOSE ENOUGH...to strike (or perhaps kick) him on a line that is open...VERY QUICKLY.

So it is always about being very close (though not as close as ,say, grappling would be); the problem then becomes the fact that you haven't spent enough time dealing with LONGER- RANGE DISTANCES. Let's say your opponent does Karate:

He's been trained to start at a greater distance away from you. perhaps moving here and there, circling around,whatever..and then from a longer range than what you're used to seeing he launches a lead arm back fist followed immediately be a spinning back kick ( or better yet: a FAKE backfist followed by the spin kick...and then maybe he immediately moves back out of contact range...comes back in with a low lead leg roundhouse kick towards your thigh followed instantaneously by a reverse punch toward your head (similar to the boxer's rear cross)...and then backs out again...In other words, he's constantly trying to vary the distance with footwork, broken rhythm and longer-range striking and kicking techniques than you're used to seeing.

How much training have you done in terms of... YOUR... footwork, rhythm, and bridging the gap and longer range attacking techniques so that you can deal with him (not to mention time spent drilling counters against some of the exact Karate techniques I just mentioned)

NOW MULTIPLY THIS SCENARIO BY ABOUT 5X ...Now the opponent is a BOXER...now he's a WRESTLER...now he's a THAI-BOXER...now he's a BRAZILIAN JIU-JITSU guy...now her's a WILD AND TOTALLY UNPREDICTABLE STREETFIGHTER-TYPE...

Where is your training against these different "geoghraphical" distances, broken rhythms, techniques, strategies, and scenarios? Have you allotted enough training-time to prepare for all of these contingencies?

Or have you spent at least 75% or more of your time only dealing with someone who fights... JUST LIKE YOU...constantly pressing forward,into an arm-to-arm contact range, with his hands, arms, and elbows close in towards the center of his body?

DO YOU SEE MY POINT?

And to those of you who think the answer to the "geographical distance" question is to simply rely on ...CHARGING STRAIGHT AHEAD ON YOUR CENTERLINE (PERHAPS WITH CHAIN PUNCHES, PERHAPS NOT) ...whenever your opponent attempts to lengthen the distance...LOTS OF LUCK..! Or to simply WAIT FOR HIM TO COME BACK INTO CONTACT RANGE...LOTS OF LUCK, AGAIN..!

The Karate or TKD guy might time you and find a way to land a front, roundhouse or (if he's really good and really fast) a spin kick right in-between your legs...if you charge him.

The Boxer will time you (even if you're chain-punching) and duck under and around and hook punch you on the side of your face...or perhaps an uppercut to your body...

The Wrestler or Jiu-Jitsu guy will take this opportunity to go down and take your knees out and throw you right down to the ground...

TheThai-Boxer might catch you with a WICKED rear roundhouse kick to your legs...

The Streetfighter might just cover up and charge directly into your charge, take a shot or two, manage to start grabbing your arms, tie you up, put you in a front bear hug, trip you clumsily down to the ground and then start biting you ear or gouging your eyes...

Sound like fun?

I know of what I speak from experience, not from reading a book...

The wing chun strategy of coming right in like this (perhaps with chain punches) against everybody and anybody because ..YOU THINK...it's all about maintaining that limb-to-limb contact range...or worse yet...just waiting for him to renew contact...THEREBY ALLOWING HIM TO DICTATE WHAT HAPPENS...

brings us right back to the original probelm...too much time spent doing drills that are limited in the scope of allowable techniques and the allowable distances.

There are 2 kinds of critics in the world: those who criticize you because they want you to succeed; and those who criticize because they want you to fail.

You carry the WING CHUN name. You may not be calling it TRADITIONAL WING CHUN as I do - but 2 out of the 3 words in your name are the same as mine; and they are the most famous words that describe you and me.

No...I don't want you to fail. I want the world to think highly of WING CHUN

So wake up and get crackin'...You've got a lot of work to do!

And speaking of names: ...foolinthedeck... I think you need a new one.

[AndrewS]

Hey Victor,

100% agree.

The WT party line- a martial art which trains to fight itself commits incest. Inbreeding rarely makes for strong stock.

Application is truth.

Later,

Andrew

[foolinthedeck]

thank you for your posts and opinions.

[wingchunalex]

you brought up many good points. my solution to your points about the limitations of drills is sparring. the reactiveness, flow, unpredictability, you mentioned I think are best trained with sparring, and sparring many different types of opponents. I definately see your point with how once you do something unpredicatable a lot of wing chun people freeze up and get lost because what happened didn't fit a predetermined pattern. I think sparring really helps that. it doesn't have to be all out put the gloves on sparring all the time or even half the time either.