Respected style outside

[grifter721]

Whats your most respected style outside of your own?
I would have to say that Boxing is the best/dangerous next to my own style.
Their hand speed is ridiculous, along with knowing what it is like to be punched often. Thier footwork can get them by and obviously their striking ability is to be reckoned with.
Tai chi is obviously the best BUT in order to master it in order to use it in fight takes toooo long and by the time you do you are old and you no longer care about combat.

[azwingchun]

I would have to say Xing Yi. Though, I did study it for awhile so may be I am a little bias. ;)

[grifter721]

Why other than the fact that you studied it?

[azwingchun]

Well, I guess to start off I would have to say that it is a very powerful and direct system. The forms were very simple, at least the for the most part, unfortuantely there were many of them.

As simple as it all sounds, that is what I look for in a style/system. An art that offers health benefits, is simple, direct and powerful, and lack of flash. ;)

[Tainan Mantis]

One of the Gracie's beat me very quickly and I admired how he did it so I would like to learn more from him.

Boxing has some good stuff, but I don't think you can practice it all your life like some other MA.
It is educational to get punched silly and your partner doesn't stop until you crumple to the floor.
I'm afraid I might lose some of my precious IQ points if I do it too often though.
Great training regimen for speed and power.
But PM has the grabs kicks and slams in between the punches.

I haven't seen anything in another style to make me want to switch though.

They say Taiji is great, but most often I see his great skills mixed in with bogus theatrics which gives me doubt.

EG.
The famous Chen Hsiaowang came to Tainan to show his stuff.
To demonstrate his power 6 people line up in a straight line pushing on each others backs while the guy at the front of the line pushes on Chne's chest.

Big deal!
Now if the tie a rope around his chest and let 6 people fail at pulling him then I am impressed.

But I did see a Taiji guy lie on the floor and put a small dumbell plate on his stomach and shoot it off landing by his knees.
I couldn't do that with an object of any weight.

[grifter721]

tai chis principles alone make it a good style, while I agree with you that Tai chi guys have a lot of theatrics, there are the serious guys in the style,but they are too old to fight anymore.....thats why I would only use it soley for longevity and health. Pm was made for fightin and thats it, no flash no dash just fightin, its teh only syle o kung fu I do and will do sides tai chi one day.
Yeah Boxing does have its brain cell prob, but still they are fighters to be reckoned with at all times :)
I have heard a lot about xing i, I saw a guy do a demo with a crap load o power. I was impressed. It is also a bit like tai chi no? But with more...'movement' to it and more of a readilly identifiable commbat movements, hence it is easier to put into combat.

[B.Tunks]

Tainan,

O.K, yeah that demo does sound pretty crap. Most Taiji demo's are, fake jumping around and taking dives etc. But I know for a fact, Chen Xiaowang is a very tough guy who has smashed plenty of people in real fights. You should try going at it with him in grasping, locking, grappling and pushing. He has arms like pythons. I myself was very sceptical of him and rather unimpressed by what i at the time percieved as his arrogance. I gained my respect for him by trying him out and the two of us ended up going through an internal wall of a house and a very expensive stereo system. He is very tough and I would have lost the use of my left hand if I hadn't picked him up and rammed him into the wall (which was a little dispespectful on my behalf but hey, I was young!). This guy was willing to let me go at it with him and I am at least 25 years his junior. I can say I hit him hard and hit me me harder. I respect that! Not only that he dislocated three of my brothers fingers and also dropped two of us from a hands on start.
Thats my take on Chen Xiaowang.
B.T

[Tainan Mantis]

Brendan,
Thanks for your enlightening description of Chen Hsiaowang.
I'm happy to hear he has MA spirit.
Did you feel that he fought using Taiji principles as you understand them?

His student teaches Taiji right next to me.
I don't think his best guy there could fight his way out of a paper bag.
100% emphasize beauty of forms.
It doesn't bother me. But that helped to make me think that Chen couldn't fight since what little I have seen of his students can't fight.

Maybe he doesn't realize that what his students do is a representation of how others, like me, perceive him.

But I wouldn't go at it with a Taiji master with grappling and pushing, at least not him.
I think I would get suckered into his game.

I was at a Taiji class some years back when the teacher and all his students were challenged by an outsider. Something right out of the movies.

The outsider cleaned up.
After everyone was gone I went at it with Mantis punches and didn't give him a chance to push.
I figured it would be hard to win at his game since he was a very strong guy.
Also, the Taiji guys used to beat me up in the park when I tried using only their stuff.
But he couldn't stop or defend against a single punch and I felt a little embarrassed to be hitting an older guy.

So to this day I don't see how Taiji, by itself helps against PM punches.

But I should add that in Tainan a lot of guys mix their Taiji with White Crane which has some hand stuff not unlike Wing Chun.
This totally changes the battle as it then becomes difficult to get a punch in.

I don't know if you have seen their stuff.
Their push hands looks a little like Taiji, but fast and walking and jumping at the same time.
Probably my Shrfu's favorite southern style.

[WanderingMonk]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

May I ask you how did the Gracie guy beat you. Specifically, I am wondering: Do you feel that you lost because unfamiliarity with his tactic? Or was he just more skillful? Did he take the fight to the ground? If he beat you on the ground, do you think you would fair better if you study how to defend against their takedowns?

I hope you don't mind.

wm

[grifter721]

everyone is going off topic now....but hey I got yo guys talking

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi WM,
The takedowns that he used I learned in PM as well as their counters so it wasn't unfamiliarity of technique.
The ground control I knew except the Gi Chokes. Also what I had learned in PM.

Rolls didn't talk a lot since he was still learning to use English.
After 3 falls I said ok let's train.
Then the whole class was working on going from position A to position B.

It was the exact same move in #2 of PM Luohan Gong, the second Luohan called Tyrant Lifts the Tripod.

The other student, a sixth degree shredded Karate guy, was convinced I lost because of using an inferior style.
I can't concede to that since I already was familiar with the techniques.

After the workout I asked Rolls about his training.
His dad, also named Rolls, you may remember he died in a plane crash some years back.
Anyway, his dad had a large school in Brasil when Rolls Jr was born.
So his first memories are nothing but the mat. He started when he was three.
Compare that to me starting when I was fifteen.

So three reasons I lost...

-His brain had better nerve wiring since he started much younger.

-My training at that time(since corrected) had to much training aspects that don't directly help fighting.
Compare to PM originally having but 3 forms. Now most schools have 50 or more.
If the school has less than 20 forms it is considered few.
Better to just each the 3 original forms, or three favorites.

-It is easier to practice all out grappling and takedowns every class as compared to most PM techniques which more easily cause damage.

EG. In Judo class I can take body slams full power for most of the class.
But in PM I can't Go-Lo Tsai my partner in his nose more than once unless we have safety equipment. And then I can only do it a few times.

So he could go all out on his takedown with out worry while I can't. Maybe some can, but like my old Shrfu said, " Are you going to poke out his eyes to prove a point?"
Not to say that I could have won with an eyepoke...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

The ground control I knew except the Gi Chokes. Also what I had learned in PM.

what style of pm was it that taught that - I'd really love to see it.


-It is easier to practice all out grappling and takedowns every class as compared to most PM techniques which more easily cause damage.

EG. In Judo class I can take body slams full power for most of the class.
But in PM I can't Go-Lo Tsai my partner in his nose more than once unless we have safety equipment. And then I can only do it a few times.

can you not apply the principle behind it to make it safer? yes, in judo, I can ippon seionage you all day, but I can also turn your arm a different way and snap it in half during the throw, a la shuai chiao's "rhino gazes at the moon" - there's a safe version of the throw for training and competition. It's the same principle, just a different variation.

he could go all out on his takedown with out worry while I can't. Maybe some can, but like my old Shrfu said, " Are you going to poke out his eyes to prove a point?"
Not to say that I could have won with an eyepoke...

he modified his stuff too - he could have slammed you on your head. in the case of submissions, he can choke you unconscious or break limbs.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by grifter721
Whats your most respected style outside of your own?
I would have to say that Boxing is the best/dangerous next to my own style.


Am I reading this wrong, or are you saying that your style is the most dangerous? you mean, in your eyes, right?

[joedoe]

I respect no styles outside my own!!!! Hahahahaha. :D

Seriously, I have a healthy respect for most styles. In the end it is the person who makes the fighter, not the style.

[prana]

if I ever learn another set of MA, it would have to be one from the 18 lohan ...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis


So to this day I don't see how Taiji, by itself helps against PM punches.


:rolleyes:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by grifter721
Tai chi is obviously the best BUT in order to master it in order to use it in fight takes toooo long and by the time you do you are old and you no longer care about combat.

Obviously the best according to....?

[SevenStar]

elitist attitudes in ma are played out - or at least they should be. There is no most dangerous style. There is no best style.

[grifter721]

Pm in My eyes is teh most aggressive/dangerous.....In other words I dont feel it necessary to learn another are o fightin, sides thats not teh only reason I embarked on the Kung Fu journey.


In theory Tai chi is teh best ma/ seeing as ma evolved first as a health exc then as a fighting art, and tai chi incorporates teh power of teh body, ie chi, and they learn how to manipulate that energy. they learn teh energy sytem and how to manipulate others energy, now that is just facked. BUT as I said it takes too long to learn all of this so learning tai chi is like teh last thing to do if all you wanna do is fight. There are other reasons but sheet who want to write em all out.
What other style can you practice till teh end of your days? Muay Thai? Judo? Jusi jitsu? Kicboxing? and I am not talking out o my ass I know many Muay thi guys and they know that if you are serious at uay thai there is no way you can compete for very long/too taxing on teh body.

[B.Tunks]

Hi again.

I know were off topic here but...

>Did you feel that he fought using Taiji principles as you >understand them?

Yes actually. Chen style has a lot of that in it. Besides that, the push (which has come up in several replies to this post), is certainly not the number one weapon in Taiji. It is part of, but not all of the system in action.

>His student teaches Taiji right next to me.
>I don't think his best guy there could fight his way out of a >paper bag.

No doubt many of his students over the world are the same. He travels 8 months of the year basically teaching anyone and everyone ($$$), and I doubt there are many that can fight well using the Chen style. But dont underestimate the system, there certainly are tough Chen stylists around, especially in China. Chen himself though, and his close brothers can all do the do.

>100% emphasize beauty of forms.

Yes, I agree this is a worthless approach.

>It doesn't bother me. But that helped to make me think that >Chen couldn't fight since what little I have seen of his students >can't fight.

As above.

>Maybe he doesn't realize that what his students do is a >representation of how others, like me, perceive him.

More that he wouldnt care ($$$)...

>But I wouldn't go at it with a Taiji master with grappling and >pushing, at least not him.
>I think I would get suckered into his game.

Well we tried it both ways and he was no problem with either. Either you can fight or you cant, and he can. Besides which I can use Taiji principles and Tanglang principles for fighting (Tanglang shares many of these and I practice both).

>So to this day I don't see how Taiji, by itself helps against PM >punches.

I think perhaps thats because you have only crossed hands with no good Taiji boxers. Taiji is designed to deal with any kind of punches and delivers its own effectively as well.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the individual anyone can make a good style look s.hit.

On topic again, I think Baji, Xinyi Liuhe, Chuojiao Fanzi and Tongbi (off the top of the head) are also powerful fighting styles. Of course there are many, many more.
B.T

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Sevenstar,
I studied PM with Shr Zhengzhong.
He did a variety of PM styles.
There are takedowns in the style which you see in other styles.
What happened on the ground with Rolls and I was very short, I didn't have the skill to counter his technique. I just happened to have learned those in class before.
So I'm thinking,"Hey I learned that too."

We do apply some principle of movement to make techniques and punches safer.
And I know that the nice polite throw can be an evil and ugly throw.

About Taiji, it is just based on what I have seen, maybe not enough.
In push hands class they push hands, maybe add throws, but I haven't seen Taiji people working off punches.
Not to say it doesn't happen.

[Merryprankster]

Yes, grifter, you are talking out of your ass.

I can train in Judo, Boxing, BJJ, and MT, long after my competitive years may be behind me.

Training and full contact competing aren't the same thing, and require VERY different committment levels from you and your body.

Of course, you probably don't know that.

[Tainan Mantis]

Brendan,
We posted at exactly the same time.
Anyway, thanks for the detailed answers.

I should mention that I have seen good Taiji fighters, but they also did other styles so I am not sure how much integration took place.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by grifter721
Pm in My eyes is teh most aggressive/dangerous.....In other words I dont feel it necessary to learn another are o fightin, sides thats not teh only reason I embarked on the Kung Fu journey.


In theory Tai chi is teh best ma/ seeing as ma evolved first as a health exc then as a fighting art, and tai chi incorporates teh power of teh body, ie chi, and they learn how to manipulate that energy. they learn teh energy sytem and how to manipulate others energy, now that is just facked.

judo and shuai chiao both teach energy manipulation, as well as other internal styles. several other external systems do also. I am really (seriously) interested in the ground control you learned in PM though - I've never seen such in kung fu. are there any links I can see?

What other style can you practice till teh end of your days? Muay Thai? Judo? Jusi jitsu? Kicboxing? and I am not talking out o my ass I know many Muay thi guys and they know that if you are serious at uay thai there is no way you can compete for very long/too taxing on teh body.


1. you don't have to compete to train in it. My judo coach ( a three time mational champ) is 73. he started training when he was in his late 30's. you can definiitely do judo and bjj for life. As far as kickboxing, I know someone who competed in a smoker for his 50th b-day. he spars with younger guys on a regular basis. There's a thai gym in denmark (dunno the name) that Royce sent one of our guys to to teach bjj. The coach of that gym and a few other guys came to our school recently - the coach is in his 40s and can still hang with the young guys.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

About Taiji, it is just based on what I have seen, maybe not enough.
In push hands class they push hands, maybe add throws, but I haven't seen Taiji people working off punches.
Not to say it doesn't happen.

William CC Chen's son Max is vicious in san shou. He's only trained in chen tai chi, as far as I know. And shooter has tc guys that compete in mma competitions.

[Liokault]

Lots of arts I really respect and wish I had the time or opotunity to train in.

1/ Capoara....just looks soooo cool. (is a club in Oxford but they just look silly (sorry Wahoo who trains there lol))

2/ Boxing ....gypsey style....you got to see it to belive it!!!

3/ BJJ for doing somthing differant REALLY well and taking every body else out.

[Kumkuat]

I think William CC Chen's son is trained in Cheng Man Ching taiji not Chen style. But that doesn't really matter.

Most wushu-fied taiji probably emphaize a lot on the beauty of the forms. But there is a difference when a good teacher corrects the student's form to look pretty or to adjust the student's aligntment and structure so that the student can become more relaxed.

I don't really know any good taiji guys living in Taiwan right now except for maybe Adam Hsu. But I really haven't heard from reliable people or met him myself to see if he's actually good as he says he is.

['MegaPoint]

Join a Taebo or Krav Maga class and check out the a$$! Hella b-itches!!! I'm in Texas so I bought a handgun for self defense and got a permit. For a good time and a good aerobic workout do things where chicks are rampant. Do you know how h o rny bee-yotches get when you are the only sweaty dude around?! DizAMN!!! Get some!

Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu has been good to me... BJJ is good too, but like Muay Thai it destroys your body. That is the truth. I don't care what folks think. I use empiricism and modern medicine as my sources. Dont' look at the Gracies (they gots Gracie genes), look at Mark Kerr. Broke. No man is meant to be regularly twisted, slammed, choked unconscious (or near it) and beat upon like a slab of beef. The human body will get you back when you're old. Who says people don't do these harmful things b/c they secretly want to punish themselves and kill themselves faster? That's my theory at least, hahaha!

PM ain't sh it. Tai Chi is much better, depending upon who teaches it. Don't be an impatient martial artist. Be a smart and long-term minded one. Get a good teacher AND style (yes some styles are better at teaching fighting than others) then stick to it. Get to the advanced level, and if you want to supplement your training, increase your range(s), then check out other systems when you have a solid base. You can also be the consumate journeyman, like Bruce was, hit the weights and cross-train and learn to defend yourself while you are fast and strong. Most grapplers won't be "Judo" Gene LaBell when they get 60+. They will be "Arthritic" Arthur Grapplin. 'Nawmean? Most western strikers (boxers) won't be Cheng ManChing, Sokon Matsumura or Morio Higaonna. They will have the Parkinsonian talent of Muhammmad Ali. All that knowledge and skill, but a tore up body and mind (same thing) that can't apply it.

Get sporty you Sport Billy types. Get good health coverage now. Dowutchyalike... It don't concern me. I'll live to 120 minimum and I'll be kicking some but-tocks, heheheheh!

[SevenStar]

I think this is the first time I disagree with you, man. Like I said, my judo coach is 73 - I know for a fact it can be done into old age. you only have to train right. you're not gonna be taking full force throws at that age, but you can definitely roll.

[HuangKaiVun]

Taijiquan is a GREAT combat style provided you actually apply the techniques you learn in the sets.

For example, I've got several moves for "Form the Ball". Lately, I've been focusing on using it as a takedown.


EVERY combative style has something to make me afraid to fight it.

So I have a lot of respect for anyone who does any form of combative martial art. Even some of the schools that people here trash have plenty enough martial applications to hurt anyone IF used properly.

It's just a matter of matching up the right practitioner to the right venue.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I think this is the first time I disagree with you, man. Like I said, my judo coach is 73 - I know for a fact it can be done into old age. you only have to train right. you're not gonna be taking full force throws at that age, but you can definitely roll.

Hey we can't agree about everything, bruh'! I didn't say everyone that grappled or did full contact stuff would be crippled. I just said that the chances were most folks don't have the genetics to endure continuous punishment. Your sensei probably trained smart yet hard. He's probably just innately resilient. I know for a fact that many BJJ guys and Thai Boxers are broke up like football players by the time they are in their late 30s.

The old school Judo cats were into punishing themselves as were many original karate guys. Some guys go all out, and train TOO hard. I know of some Shorinkan bad-asse s who needed a complete hip replacemnet by the time they were 45! That's from wear and tear (from hard sparring), too much stressing and forcing your stretches, and too many high kicks! So bad training includes "traditional" systems also.

To try and explain the reality of the world to someone who only understands and lives in his/her reality, is impossible. I can say that the orig. MP, 7 ("G") Star, and Rogue are 3 of the folks that I respect on this board. I may not agree with them totally sometimes, but they are diplomatic (something I lack) and very astute. Oh yeah, Ryu is included too, even if he teaches JKD (j/k of course)!

I still respect and like you, even if we disagree Sev'. Peace....

[grifter721]

just to let all y'all outside o teh mantis board
I NEVER ASKED FOR ANY OF YOUR OPINIONS!
if it wasnt moved we wouldnt o had this problem.

[SevenStar]

and you REALLY felt that was necessary to say? Ah well. If it makes you feel better, I mod the southern forum and do look at the NPM forum from time to time.... If I woulda seen this thread there, I still woulda replied. it's a DISCUSSION forum....

[scotty1]

"BUT as I said it takes too long to learn all of this so learning tai chi is like teh last thing to do if all you wanna do is fight"

Wrong. Wrong diddly wrong wrong.

Dude rode into town on a horse called ignorance.

Intensity of training my man. Obviously things take time, but hey, it'll take a bit of time to be a GOOD Western boxer.

[rogue]

I just said that the chances were most folks don't have the genetics to endure continuous punishment. Sadly for me I have those genetics. For the longest time I could train my a$$ off, but now I'm not mending like I used to. My mom recently had a knee replacement and while I marvel at what medical science accomplished I'm in no hurry to end up needing the procedure.

'MegaPoint how's med school going?

[shaolin kungfu]

Wrong. Wrong diddly wrong wrong. Dude rode into town on a horse called ignorance

I don't know why, but this made me laugh my ass off. I completely agree with you about the boxing thing scotty. You may learn all the techniques in a very short time, but it could be a very long while before your ready for the title fight.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by rogue
Sadly for me I have those genetics. For the longest time I could train my a$$ off, but now I'm not mending like I used to. My mom recently had a knee replacement and while I marvel at what medical science accomplished I'm in no hurry to end up needing the procedure.

'MegaPoint how's med school going?

You seem like a cat that's wid' it. Be good to your mind-body "weapon". You deserve that. Intelligent/real warriors (and people) are few and far between.

I'm almost finished with my fourth year. I'll be going into PMNR (Physical Medicine and Rehab). My internship starts in August. Thanks for asking, and keep striving to be you.

When are we gonna see you in a Hollywood MA flick? :)Represent... Peace, "7od"!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu


I don't know why, but this made me laugh my ass off. I completely agree with you about the boxing thing scotty. You may learn all the techniques in a very short time, but it could be a very long while before your ready for the title fight.

I don't think we're talking about title fights though... take a guy and train him in boxing for 6 months. Do the same with another guy, but train him in TMA. After 6 months, let them fight. In several TMA schools, it may be three to four months before you do any fighting at all - maybe longer. Maybe the style doesn't fight at all. In boxing, they will start sparring in about 4 weeks. even if he's not a GOOD boxer, he's got months of experience under his belt that the other guy doesn't have.

[shaolin kungfu]

You make a very valid point. However, If a tai chi practitioner did start sparring early on(as I recommend they do), I believe they could use the few techniques they know effectively. They would not have the full range of techs available in the style, but what he does have is effective.

I have both boxed and done tai chi, and both have a lot to offer. Boxing is easy to pick up and starts you sparring extremely quick. Tai chi has a wide range of different techs to offer the practitioner. It's true most tma schools don't get sparring soon, if ever. In this case I recommend that people spar outside of the school.

[Sho]

Most respected arts (out of my own) for me would be Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and western boxing for their directness and "no bull****" attitude.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
You make a very valid point. However, If a tai chi practitioner did start sparring early on(as I recommend they do), I believe they could use the few techniques they know effectively. They would not have the full range of techs available in the style, but what he does have is effective.

agreed.

[TjD]

outside of wing chun, which i am obviously biased towards:

i have much respect for GOOD xing yi and GOOD tai chi from what i've heard (not much respect when the internal arts get *******ized and are done purely for health - i'd rather do yoga).
also white crane, if wing chun came from it, it can't be all bad :D

i'm not too interested/impressed in boxing as a complete art, because of its lack of legwork, but to each their own.

[SevenStar]

forget completeness. no one art is truly "complete" what about the effectiveness of it?

[scotty1]

Yeah I agree that boxing would become 'usable' probably quicker than taiji but that's not what the guy said. He said

"learning tai chi is like teh last thing to do if all you wanna do is fight"

and that I disagree with.

[TjD]

Originally posted by SevenStar
forget completeness. no one art is truly "complete" what about the effectiveness of it?


mabye i'm just being single-minded when i doubt the efficacy of boxing when the kicks, knees and elbows start flying. yes, i agree boxers can hit **** hard. they are **** good with their set of rules.

i'm not giving the "oh but i can poke you in the eyes and win!" defense here, but from watching boxing (which i have been impressed with), i admit they are excellent in their skill set but i think could be extremely troubled with an opponent with the same amount of training who had experience with kicks, knees and elbows - not to mention any sort of groundfighting.