OT... Protests

[Gold Horse Dragon]

You know...you see all these antiwar protests...too bad they did not come out to protest against terrorism after 9/11, or the atrocities committed by Saddam H and his henchmen. These protesters all take advantage of the free life they have in the US and Canada and Europe and then have the gall to protest against the forces that will aid in getting rid of terrorism, torture, genocide. They should have all taken a trip to Irag a year ago and protested there...maybe then they may have appreciated the country they live in and the freedoms they have. Protesting an unjust war is noble, protesting a just war to get rid of present and future atrocities...well I for one do not call that a Peace protest!
Just my thoughts...

GHD

[Kinjit]

Well, wether the war is just or not is probably were you disagree. Just a thought.
;)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Seems you missed the main point...they did not protest against 9/11, terrorism.

GHD

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
Seems you missed the main point...they did not protest against 9/11, terrorism.

GHD

Aren't you forgetting all the march held around the world for the victim of 9/11 including in Germany and France. Your country's embassy was flooded with condolense.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

True...some small numbers did protest, but more for the occurrence than the forces, regimes etc that support terrorism. And they should also be protesting that now.

GHD

[Kinjit]

Some people consider not going to McDonald's for a week a valid way to protest... How you gonna do that with bin laden?:D

[Laughing Cow]

GHD.

Pls, specify and proove which forces and regimes support terrorism.

You might get a shock when a few "anti-terrorist" names pop up.

Cheers.

[GLW]

With all of the TV coverage and interviews...you know the type : "My sister's brother-in-law's hairdresser's first cousin knew someone that knew someone that may have been passing by New York...let's interview them" and the Self serving TV rememberance specials ad nauseam...there was enough crass commercialism going on then that no one would have noticed condolences, protests against the actions, support, or anything.

In fact, in the back sections of some papers there WERE some stories about how many people across the world supported us and how many in this country were against the actions but urging restraint and an application of Christian values - the turn the other cheek thing...but of course, we never remember those things because they are not good copy.

[prana]

guess dats the reason why Iraqi civilians, shop keepers, mothers et al are willing to stay and defend for their own country.

Why are you so numb to think that ppl outside of North America were not affected by the twin tower bombings and Bali bombings ?

How about a different avenue, since Saddam has commited so much crime, it should be easy then for international law to find Saddam guilty and have troops overthrow the government, instead of killing innocent civillians by throwing missiles in their direction.

Remember, most of the people who die are like us, neighbours, a mother of 10 hungry children, a husband to a wife (or three :D ) a sister, a brother, a provider of food, shelter, a shoulder to cry on, a sustainer of life, a place we sleep at night, a place we call home where we place ouir children, loved ones, and hope they are safe, a place we put doors, locks and love, and like them, we, the peaceful loving nations, are tearing them apart in the name of peace, like they did us in the name, we call terrorism.

Theer are so many views on the same field, but none are completely righteous nor completely wrong. Ultimately karma will catch up with them.

OM AH HUM, may the dying be borned out of this hell.

[dezhen2001]

good post prana. :)

dawood

[David Jamieson]

The protest took the form of the 7 pm vigil, globally in regards to 9/11. The thousand who gathered and placed flowers, the outpouring of emotional regards towards everyone who had lost someone in the attack and especially to the firefighters and policemen and women of the City of New York.

I put a candle out and that attrocity floored me for a week.

The follow up to protest of 9/11 was the assault on the Taliban and the forces which went and still are in Afghanistan. The people were not divided about it in the least.

This was the form of protest for 9/11. I think it was much more than a few scattered people.

The people are completely divided on this issue of the unprovoked attack on Iraq. For whatever reasons.

I live in a country that does NOT support mr Bush's incursion into that country. I also live in a country that will contribute to the clean up and rebuild that will be required afterwards.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

P
I think you are numb...I never said ppl outside NA were not affected...read again...I posted about protests....too bad you do not mention all the men and women killed in 9/11 and other terrorist attacks and how their children were left fatherless, motherless and how their families were affected. In precision strikes, most of the people who die are not people like us. There will be some non-combatant casualites in any war and of course this is highly regreatable...but in 9/11 there were thousands of non-combatant casualties in the terrorists war against the free world.
Easy for Irag soldiers to overthrow SH...please get real...he tortured, killed anyone at the slightest hint of an overthrow and by the way he has been found guilty...just no one did something about it.
George Bush is a strong president, a lot better than the States has had in a long time especially the last one who just liked to get his jollies under the table in the oval office :eek:
The defeat of Irag is going to take a crunching bite out of terrorism in the short and long run...protestors should think about what will happend to innocent people in the free world if terrorism is not checked and stopped...such as a small nuke going off or biological agents being spread...with catastrophic results of 10s of thousand innocent people killed - women, children, infants, men.

And yes Karma has finally caught up with Saddam.

GLW...these are remembered...but I just wonder how many of those protesting now also protested against the atrocities that took place in Iraq by Saddam and did they also protest when 9/11 happened?...not too many I think.

Remember SH could have prevented all of this...he chose not too.
I hope he lives and is captured so he can be put on trial, Same with Bin Laden.

LC...it has already been proven and they are not aniterrorist names as you say...please do your research.

unprovoked attack on Iraq Please :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

kl
As far as Canada's PM...this is from a guy who did not keep one of his election promises, a guy who chokes a man who just wanted to talk with him, a guy whos own party wants him to step down but he is so arrogant that he will not...he is an embarasment to Canada.
Demonstration of grief is one thing...protests against the agents of terrorism is quite another...you just still do not get it. If you use your example of the taliban...then to use the same logic...the war at present is a protest as well...please. Assault on the taliban was not a protest...it was a military action against terrorism..same now.

GHD

[David Jamieson]

ghd-

you keep telling me "i don't get it" and "i don't understand".

I do not concur, I do get plenty and I understand plenty.

The attack on Iraq is not about freeing an oppressed country.
The 9/11 attrocity never had a connection to Iraq. Mr. Bush can't seem to uncouple that one though for some reason, but then, I guess it can be difficult to sell wholesale slaughter.

I have been a proponent for the putting down of tyrants such as Hussein and I believe that the sanctions and the inspections were working. The attack ordered by Bush has wholly different reasons than those he is dressing up with sparkles for the American people and the rest of the world.

Many of the people in his own country and many other countries are not buying what he's selling and day after day thousands are marching and voicing their clear opposition to this uncalled for tactic.

The following letter to Mr.Chretien as printed in the community news papers in the city i live in comes very close to how I feel about the situation.



Dear Prime Minister Chretien:

My name is Stuart Green and I'm a journalist with a chain of community newspapers in Toronto
where my focus is primarily on municipal politics and not world events.

I write to you not as a journalist but as a Canadian.
Over the years I have taken issue with your stand on a great many matters on both a personal and professional level.
But your stand on the American led military action in Iraq is one that I believe you can be proud to stand by and I stand with you,
never prouder to call myself a Canadian.

Your position on this conflict, I believe, is one that a majority of Canadians also support.
You, like many here at home and abroad, know that this is a unilateral action being perpetrated by a select "coalition" of the willing,
so President George W. Bush would have us believe.
I have to wonder how willing members of this coalition really are, given the intensive lobbying that has been going on.

Just so you know, I think Canada has shown, through your actions, that it is no less "willing" to take a stand in this conflict.
A stand that happens to run counter to what Bush and company would have the world believe is right.
To know that our country has taken a stand by refusing to take part in a forceful occupation masquerading as some kind of
"war on terror" that doesn't have the backing of the much respected United Nations is of great comfort to me.

You, sir, know the reality of the situation, having been privy to much more information than the average citizen and have still
taken the stand you have.
You know what the objective is and I suspect that deep down you know it's not to liberate the people of Iraq, as Bush likes to say.
You know that it's about controlling oil supplies. It's about a regime change that is more beneficial to the current presidency.

Bush tells you and the world that he's moving in to stop the horrendous oppression of the Iraqis and Kurds being raped and slaughtered
for their opposition to Saddam Hussein. But you know as well as I do that if the U.S. was serious about stopping global atrocities,
it would have invaded any number of African nations where government sponsored genocide has been allowed to occur unchecked for decades.

Oh, but there's no prize in helping those people, is there?
They have nothing of value that Bush covets, do they?
Mr. Prime Minister, there are those who in this time may call you a coward for not committing our nation to the actions in Iraq.
I think the opposite is true. You have shown more courage by standing up to our nation's largest trading partner and saying we will not be bullied
into helping it fight an immoral and illegal "war". To simply follow blindly would be the easy and cowardly thing.

There are those who will also joke about our national defence forces and
wonder what good a canoe and two guys with McDonald's straw pea shooters would do anyway.
"Who needs you?" some may say.
Truth is, they don't need us and, frankly, we don't want to be needed.
We are Canada, we are not the 51st state, and you've made that clear.
And for that I thank YOU.


good day

[Gold Horse Dragon]

No you do not get it and not just with regard to this topic...I know you, your background, your behaviour...and you just do not!

GHD

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon

George Bush is a strong president, a lot better than the States has had in a long time

ROFL!!!

[Goldenmane]

Hmm... just a thought:

Something happens, that is in no direct way done by your government or a major part of your society... how you gunna protest that?

If the key thing about your viewpoint is compassion, and that defines your stance, then how are you going to get a bunch of people to march, chanting slogans about it, in the midst of the misery and pain that the US was suffering at the time? Surely it is more effective, more 'compassionate' to look at ways to help those who have suffered directly from these attacks than to organise 'protest marches'?

It's an attack on what your society is percieved to stand for. Marching in your own streets serves no purpose whatsoever, surely? If one is protesting against what one sees as being an unjust action on the part of the government of the nation one is a part of... how does the same form of action come to be regarded as the correct or effective move when dealing with a government half a world away?

To put it another way: I can march in a protest against what *my* or *affiliated* government/s is/are doing... but I might not be stupid enough to think that I'll get *anywhere* marching in my country to protest against what another country is doing... especially when my country has been emotionally blown apart by an attack by a group of people who are not even a government.

In the former sense, it is calling 'my' government to account, in the latter, it is screaming about the same sort of things as anyone else in 'my' country, and so is lost in the noise and serves nothing.

-geoff (I am not a protestor, but I do admire some degree of clarity of vision)

[David Jamieson]

ghd-

You have your perspective, and I have mine.
I respectfully disagree with your perspective on this topic.

Do you think I am just stumbling through life blind to the realities?
You knew me once, as I knew you. Today, that is different, I would venture that neither of us holds to views we once shared.
That's life.

regards

[David Jamieson]

stumble-

your vehemence is more towards me regardless of the subject matter it seems.

Frtom my perspective, this only makes you a bitter and vindictive person unwilling to discuss and argue the real issues at hand.

When it comes to politicians, there will always be those who are for and those who are against.

You keep refering to "polls". Where are you getting your polls from? Mine indicate that yours are wrong.

Here is the reality, our country is divided on the issue, but our global stance is not.

That's all there is to it. Now, if you would care to address the real issue of the hegemonic practice being carried out under the command of GWBush then I'm all ears and infact I'm even willing to read whatyou have to say.

you keep sullying your argument with personal attacks though man. It reveals something to me about your communication style.

regards

[GLW]

The wondering about a question is natural.

However, answering your own question with no data to support it - answering solely out of your opinion and bias yields a worthless answer.

The answer could be right - but that is a complete hit and miss thing.

The issue here is that YOU are condemning an entire group of people based upon YOUR bias and completely denying any possibility of the validity of their opinions and ideas.

The connection you are trying to make is an irrelevant one.

If you are looking at a person protesting something NOW, all that matters in regards to their protest NOW is their reasons and statements in regards to the protest NOW.

While past behavior MAY indeed make you respect or not respect an individual, it can never invalidate the reasons behind current behavior. Each instance must be evaluated on its own merit.

Whether or not a person is a hypocrite is a different question that "Does their stance NOW have merit?"

GHD, you obviously don't like the protesters. Fine...state that. You don't respect their viewpoint. That is fine too....but what would happen if you stated that?

[ZIM]

"Just because a man dies for a belief, doesn't necessarily make it true"

On that note, Rachel Corrie's last email to her folks was posted on the net... I thought it was important enough to post here because it gives perspective to both sides of this 'lil debate we're having. It IS lengthy, so skip it, if you want...
----------------------


"I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States -something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me, "Ali" - or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say "Bush Majnoon" "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited Arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: Bush mish Majnoon... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago--at least regarding Israel.

Nevertheless, I think about the fact that no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it, and even then you are always well aware that your experience is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli Army would face if they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and, of course, the fact that I have the option of leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. Ostensibly it is still quite difficult for me to be held for months or years on end without a trial (this because I am a white US citizen, as opposed to so many others). When I leave for school or work I can be relatively certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting half way between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint—a soldier with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and whether I can get home again when I'm done. So, if I feel outrage at arriving and entering briefly and incompletely into the world in which these children exist, I wonder conversely about how it would be for them to arrive in my world.

They know that children in the United States don't usually have their parents shot and they know they sometimes get to see the ocean. But once you have seen the ocean and lived in a silent place, where water is taken for granted and not stolen in the night by bulldozers, and once you have spent an evening when you haven’t wondered if the walls of your home might suddenly fall inward waking you from your sleep, and once you’ve met people who have never lost anyone - once you have experienced the reality of a world that isn't surrounded by murderous towers, tanks, armed "settlements" and now a giant metal wall, I wonder if you can forgive the world for all the years of your childhood spent existing - just existing - in resistance to the constant stranglehold of the world’s fourth largest military - backed by the world’s only superpower - in it’s attempt to erase you from your home. That is something I wonder about these children. I wonder what would happen if they really knew.

As an afterthought to all this rambling, I am in Rafah, a city of about 140,000 people, approximately 60 percent of whom are refugees -many of whom are twice or three times refugees. Rafah existed prior to 1948, but most of the people here are themselves or are descendants of people who were relocated here from their homes in historic Palestine - now Israel. Rafah was split in half when the Sinai returned to Egypt. Currently, the Israeli army is building a fourteen-meter-high wall between Rafah in Palestine and the border, carving a no-mans land from the houses along the border. Six hundred and two homes have been completely bulldozed according to the Rafah Popular Refugee Committee. The number of homes that have been partially destroyed is greater.


Cont'd

[ZIM]

Today as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood, Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border, "Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. Followed by waving and "what's your name?". There is something disturbing about this friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we are all kids curious about other kids: Egyptian kids shouting at strange women wandering into the path of tanks. Palestinian kids shot from the tanks when they peak out from behind walls to see what's going on. International kids standing in front of tanks with banners. Israeli kids in the tanks anonymously, occasionally shouting-- and also occasionally waving--many forced to be here, many just aggressive, shooting into the houses as we wander away.

In addition to the constant presence of tanks along the border and in the western region between Rafah and settlements along the coast, there are more IDF towers here than I can count--along the horizon,at the end of streets. Some just army green metal. Others these strange spiral staircases draped in some kind of netting to make the activity within anonymous. Some hidden, just beneath the horizon of buildings. A new one went up the other day in the time it took us to do laundry and to cross town twice to hang banners. Despite the fact that some of the areas nearest the border are the original Rafah with families who have lived on this land for at least a century, only the 1948 camps in the center of the city are Palestinian controlled areas under Oslo. But as far as I can tell, there are few if any places that are not within the sights of some tower or another. Certainly there is no place invulnerable to Apache helicopters or to the cameras of invisible drones we hear buzzing over the city for hours at a time.

I've been having trouble accessing news about the outside world here, but I hear an escalation of war on Iraq is inevitable. There is a great deal of concern here about the "reoccupation of Gaza." Gaza is reoccupied every day to various extents, but I think the fear is that the tanks will enter all the streets and remain here, instead of entering some of the streets and then withdrawing after some hours or days to observe and shoot from the edges of the communities. If people aren't already thinking about the consequences of this war for the people of the entire region then I hope they will start.

I also hope you'll come here. We've been wavering between five and six internationals. The neighborhoods that have asked us for some form of presence are Yibna, Tel El Sultan, Hi Salam, Brazil, Block J, Zorob, and Block O. There is also need for constant night-time presence at a well on the outskirts of Rafah since the Israeli army destroyed the two largest wells. According to the municipal water office the wells destroyed last week provided half of Rafah’s water supply. Many of the communities have requested internationals to be present at night to attempt to shield houses from further demolition. After about ten p.m. it is very difficult to move at night because the Israeli army treats anyone in the streets as resistance and shoots at them. So clearly we are too few."

[prana]

My apologies to others, my fangs show today :D But I like to have a sense of humour sometimes too :p

GHD, I never take these forums too seriously, but I hope you still enjoy reading this post ...



Originally posted by Gold Horse Dragon
P
I think you are numb...I never said ppl outside NA were not affected...read again...I posted about protests....too bad you do not mention all the men and women killed in 9/11 and other terrorist attacks and how their children were left fatherless, motherless and how their families were affected.

No! you read my post carefully. I mentioned all lives affected in 9/11 and the Bali attacks. Numb I am, numb to the continual propaganda programs played on television with great precision and timing. The timing was soo good, it reeked of brain-wash.

The good see through the filth of media timing, the dumb simply play along.



In precision strikes, most of the people who die are not people like us. There will be some non-combatant casualites in any war and of course this is highly regreatable...but in 9/11 there were thousands of non-combatant casualties in the terrorists war against the free world.

Precision strikes, like those "mistakes" that the great American troops made that killed innocent people, or perhaps the reason why journalists were prevented from releasing footage of ground battles during the gulf war ? What about the fact that the Americans are sh1tting themselves because Australians are airing the progress of their troops on public TV ? And NA wants us to remove them ? Because unlike you, we like to see the truth behind the events.

I especially appreciate the US TV coverage who focus on how amazing their weapons are, how much land it can wipe out, and how it is released from aircrafts or warships. Looks like a piece of metal with mass-killing power is more important than blood.

Are you numb, or perhaps shielded from the footage we get elsewhere in the world ?


Easy for Irag soldiers to overthrow SH...please get real...he tortured, killed anyone at the slightest hint of an overthrow and by the way he has been found guilty...just no one did something about it.


Oh is that why shopkeepers and mothers would hold guns to fight for their country ? Cause they are so shut up by their opwn government and they want to remain that way cause the Americans are coming to free them ?

Or perhaps, its because it was the Americans who betrayed them ?



George Bush is a strong president, a lot better than the States has had in a long time especially the last one who just liked to get his jollies under the table in the oval office :eek:

They often say, the greatest lies have a bit of truth in it. I hope you understand why I also think GWB is one of the greatest terrorist ever borned. He and his father has single handedly ordered the death of thousands, faking the name of peace.

Thankfully, GWB has followers who cant see the truth for what it is.



The defeat of Irag is going to take a crunching bite out of terrorism in the short and long run...protestors should think about what will happend to innocent people in the free world if terrorism is not checked and stopped...such as a small nuke going off or biological agents being spread...with catastrophic results of 10s of thousand innocent people killed - women, children, infants, men.

And yes Karma has finally caught up with Saddam.

GHD

Ah a great shinning example of a super-power in fear. Are you any different from the sons of Saddam ?

As a side note, the civillians of Iraq would have been more at peace with Americans if they didnt abandon the Iraqis in the last Gulf War hours before they have promised to help overthrow the government. The freedom soldiers were then forced to live in hiding and when found, were killed. The blood of brave freedom fighters flowed to mark the end of a possibly the least amount of death possible

Many thanks, to the almighty American president.

I deeply wish you, just for one day, be able to wake up outside of NA and see the world without pro-American glasses on, and see why so many nations are against this war.

If you are a KF man, you should have the discipline in knowing the path of peace before the path of war. Else, the teaching of CMA should never have been bestowed upon you.

...

Karma will catch up with them.

[Laughing Cow]

Anybody that relly thinks that taking SH out will make a major impact on terrorism needs to study their history better.

Terrorism is a multi-headed hydra chop one head of and 3 new ones appear.

Terrorists are back in afghanistan and training people again at the old camps and actually got a boost of intakes and resources.

So SH is gone and one possible source of weapons and money dries up, those guys got many more lined up.

Even if bin Laden is gone and most of Al Qaeda is gone, even than there will still be terrorists.

Taking Arafat or Sharon out won't solve the Israel/Palestine dispute either.

Terrorism is coutnry-less and not bound to any specific place, source or ethnic group.

As for the prostest.

Where were the US protesters against the IRA, PLO and similar for the last 30yrs??

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

Canadians booed the US national anthem at a recent hockey game - apparently in disfavor of the war...

http://espn.go.com/nhl/news/2003/0320/1527086.html

[dezhen2001]

prana - didnt know u had such fangs dude :)


The defeat of Irag is going to take a crunching bite out of terrorism in the short and long run...

Well, either you are right and its gonna be good for us all - or ur wrong and terror will only increase more. either way many innocent lives will be jepoardized and in trouble these ocming months.

terrorists dont need WMD to cause "terror" - they seem to be achieving that right now... i hope its worth it.

dawood

[David]

I went on a Stop the War march on Thursday and I'll do it again BUWAHAHAHA. Fu(k you and your nonsense about patriotism GHD. I get very angry in War threads because it's all about Life and Death and ppl keep siding with Death like there's no other way.

I may go on anti-war marches but don't think that makes me a "Peace, Man" hippy. I'll fight for what is mine and would gladly take on any war-mongering muppets causing trouble for me and the people I care about.

There are still more protestors marching every day than there are members of the 'coalition' forces. And where there aren't protesters it's because they are too scared to protest because they are suffering with peer-pressure. It's OK to disapprove of protest? I think not.

Now the dogs are out, the protesters, abstainers and other opposers are supposed to rally behind their boys? Excuse me but I hope the alllies get their asses handed to them on a plate for the cheek of an illegal attack. I got friends out there but that is no reason for me to back the 'coalition' - I just want these people home until they have a justifiable excuse to be where they are.

Patriotism is the lamest kind of morality (lamer than polls nad lamer than stats) that could possibly be invented - and invented it was. Patriotism was a device invented by a control-freak. Hilariously, it came to pass that the little people came to think of it as a good thing because it made life easier.

Anything that makes life easier is probably wrong. But the funny thing is that people who take these mental and moral shortcuts are precisely the ones that don't understand the implications of their behaviour.

Furthermore, I don't think you can protest an act of terrorism because terrorism is itself an act of protest. It sounded like a fair statement but it's entirely comprised of nonsense - very daytime tv. And they say tv doesn't cause violence! It makes ppl too stupid to avoid violence.

Have you ever heard the argument that "the soldiers have to go in because they're psyched up and to pull them back would harm their morale". It's been used in the current context. Think about its lameness, ffs. It sounds like logic but it is a joke.

I wonder how many ignore-lists I'm on...

Peace, or else!

-David:mad:

[prana]

:D

Well playing on the other field, I can understand the reasons why many Americans are becoming trigger happy. May their pain be comforted.

I wonder if all Buddhists can get together and march the streets, instead of throwing bottles, or breaking glass, or worst still, being anti-propaganda slaves... walk the city streets chanting at the top of their voice, the purification mantra.

heheh perhaps I am a "protestor" at heart ....

[SevenStar]

saddam has two sons - usay (sp?) and uday - pronounced "you die" - I have a magazine that features an article about them (can't remember if it's 'TIME' or "Reader's Digest', I'll look for it.) At age 13, they were killing people along with the firing squads. They're ruthless, but uday is the worse of the two. They may be a bigger threat than saddam, in the event that he is killed...

[Laughing Cow]

I saw an report on Al Qaeda, that mentiones that bin Laden actually is neither the real brains nor the real power behind it.

But another guy (Azzam methinks) that converted bin Laden to HIS cause, and used bin Laden's money and influence to build Al Qaeda.

But than we all know how accurate some reports can be.

[diego]

lol at this thread...some of you ever thought some protestors are simply peace loving christians...read this in the local paper something like "yes im going to the protest only because im a christian and am agianst war of anykind!." lol, what you want them to say you want them to march the streets in support for those fighting iraq well they cant say that its not in their religion to march down the street and say bomb babies to catch a serial killer and his two sons...sounds retarded donut!?>

lol at davids post you had some quotables in their talking about tv makes em to stupid to not react with violence LMAO:)

[ZIM]

Hi Zim,Somewhat lengthy post and a little rambling.
..
Hi. 'Tweren't my words.


But i guess it point to the difficult problems that the Iraelis have....It's a difficult problem but ii'm sure the Israelis can prevail.
The ISRAELIS?!? I've been there- they don't have half the problems the Palestinians have, tho they do have their own, fair enough.


Perhaps the destruction of Saddam will help stop fueling the hatred against them and stop using the palestinians as pawns. Bush supports the creation of an independent Palestinian state. Maybe they won't be pawns any longer....

I'm not even really attacking your positions, BTW- only when they're not quite position, but vitriol. Behind some of that, there can be substance, if you so please. ;)

[respectmankind]

Hey Golden Horse moron, the idea behind the protests wasn't that Saddam was good and US was bad. It was that there are other solutions other than war or creating the same resolution over and over again. But hey, spout that 'Anyone who disagrees with me is not a patriot' bull****.

[ZIM]

"The Israelis problems are the Palestinians and vice versa.
Imagine if you were that woman and were feeling sorry for what the Israelis have to do!!!
..
Then you have approached an understanding of what is happening. "

-----------------
Been there, done that. Not a woman though! :p

Disagreeing is Patriotic! Everybody in the World wants to argue like the Americans! We have an Image to uphold! Have a TV and get started! :p :p

[the only sign i'd ever carry...LOL]

[ZIM]

Norway Files Terrorism Charges Against Kurdish Leader
VOA News
21 Mar 2003, 20:14 UTC
AP

Norwegian authorities have filed terrorism charges against the leader of a Kurdish guerrilla group accused of links with the al-Qaida network.

Prosecutors in an Oslo court accused Iraqi Kurdish leader Mullah Krekar of terrorism and of money transfers to Ansar al-Islam, which U.S. officials have designated a terrorist organization. Authorities in Norway arrested Mr. Krekar late on Thursday.

Police said they detained Mr. Krekar because they feared he might flee the country, and that charges against him could be expanded.

Mr. Krekar has been living as a political refugee in Norway but has come under investigation recently because of his links with Ansar al-Islam, a militant group based in northern Iraq.

In an interview broadcast on Dutch television earlier in the week, Mr. Krekar said if his group is confronted by U.S. forces in Iraq, it might launch suicide attacks.
--------------------

'I'm protestin' fer tha kurds...oh, nevah mind...'

[Black Jack]

I have about had it with the ignorance of you protestors. You remind me of the retarded character Dudditz in the novel Dreamcatchers by Stephen King sans the alien magic powers.

You don't seem to have a clue about where you got the Freedom to express yourselves the way you do. Meaning someone much more noble gave their very life for you to have that freedom.

It won't matter anyway, when the history books look back you will just be a sad footnote for the year of 2003, wannabe clones of a generation some 40 years prior.

Tootles :p

[respectmankind]

Black Jack, as far as I am concerned you can go down on this ****. Ignorance? Who thinks in terms of disarm or war? Small minded little *****.

[Royal Dragon]

You know, this may very well be a situation that is much more complicated than we as regular Joe's know. But based on what I have seen, we are doing the right thing.

The way I see it, we did not go all the way to Bagdhad in the early 90's because Saddam agreed to disarm. He clearly has not done that (Since he's fireing Scudds he's said he did not have at us), so now the fight is back on.

I may be wrong, but I don't remember this kind of backlash when we liberated Kuwaite. Since the current situation is just the continuation of that, I don't understand the hub ub and the protesters.

Also, on the subject of Oil, we are putting out a major expense. If we get some compensation for that by getting some oil, is that really going to give us a profit? or just break even the expenses?

If it was just for Oil, I think we would have conquered Baghdad in the early 90's.

[David Jamieson]

Although we have differences of opinion I don't think we need to fall into bouts of name calling.

emotions are high and that is understandable, but the points are lost in the mudslinging.

regards

[Gold Horse Dragon]

respectmankind...interesting screen name you chose for yourself, since all you do is call people names and swear at them.
BTW...you did not really comprehend by post.

Prana...your right...I do not take your posts seriously especially the last part...you obviously do not know too much about kung fu...thats okay...go back to your Sifu and learn :D

GHD

[prana]

:D

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Stumblefist

I don't know how the oil industry works, but isn't there a cartel or council of Middle Eastern states that determines a standard price for the world?


It is called OPEC and contains ALL the countries that produce and export Oil, including venezuela, britain, etc.
HQ of OPEC is in Vienna.



So yeah, so thnking purely economically, will America even break even?

Not for about 10~15yrs.
Iraq at the moment does not produce enough oil to pay for the proposed re-construction, but than they still have a LOT of untapped oil-fields and can up their Oil-production five-fold I think.

But than a lot of kick-back will not come from Oil directly but reconstruction & maintenance contracts and similar to US & other companies.

If the US controls Iraqi Oil they get a big vote within OPEC.
Whoever controls OPEC also controls the worlds economies.

Seeya.

[Royal Dragon]

If we install an new Iraqie government, where Iraq governs themselves, how is it we would be in controll of the oil?

Really, other than gaining a place to station troops for an indefinate amount of time, what do we gain by doing this?

I just think those that say were only doing this to steal oil haven't realy thought this through.

[Laughing Cow]

RD.

We still do not know what shape the new Iraqi goverment will be nor what possible limiations might be imposed on it.
Same thing happened after WW II to the german and japanese goverments.

Remember they were talking if a military style interim goverment first for a possible few years.

THe US might demand that all the reconstrucion efforts have to be directed via their control and US companies alone and thus could influence the Iraqi goverment.

This of course is a hypothesis only and only one of many possible scenarios.

;) ;)

[Goldenmane]

"If the key thing about your viewpoint is compassion, and that defines your stance, then how are you going to get a bunch of people to march, chanting slogans about it, in the midst of the misery and pain that the US was suffering at the time? Surely it is more effective, more 'compassionate' to look at ways to help those who have suffered directly from these attacks than to organise 'protest marches'?"
- Goldenmane
---------------------------------------------
Reporter: Why are you protesting?
Protester :We've gotta stop the War, of course!
-----------------------------------------
So there it is! Why they are protesting. They hope to do what the Vietnam protesters did,
But they can't, it took years before, and the war AND the protesters wore down the politicians.


Where, when, etc. All the standard questions... I can, should I choose, make quotes up wholesale and present them the same way, to whit:

Reporter: Why did you steal the marbles?
Protester: Because the ging-gang-goolie is a wizzer!

This parody, though not very funny, serves to highlight a point. The point being that if you're going to bother quoting me and (apparently) responding to me, then you could at least go to the trouble of making your response coherent and meaningful.

I was going to go into a long discourse about how one isolated random individual may not be necessarily a 'good' (for want of a better word) representative of a segment of society.. but I don't really see the point right now.

In short, I don't understand your response to what I posted. In fact, I don't understand how it is meant to be taken as a response rather than a semi-coherent and vaguely-if-at-all-related short rant.

Maybe I'm just not intelligent enough to understand the telling subtleties of your posts. I'm trying to improve.

-geoff

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Stumblefist
So by your inference you are saying Iraq now controls the world's economy now, unless they are under some interdiction.

I am interfering NOTHING that is all YOUR doing.
I said WHOEVER controls OPEC, I NEVER said Iraq controlled OPEC.

Seeya.

[diego]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
You know, this may very well be a situation that is much more complicated than we as regular Joe's know.

YA THINK!?????:D

[respectmankind]

Gold, quite the persceptive comment. I mean ****, not only did you see what everyone including I did but you also managed to generalise every single one of my many posts on this site as being as rude as the ones you just saw. Congrats man. And yes I did get your post ass. And if you are curious as to why my response is not very respectufl it is because I am being called a anti america when I am infact very patriotic. Stupid people shoud rethink their conclusions about people who know there was more than just one solution to this problem.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Right (said with vocal expression) ;) :rolleyes:

GHD