Gene you may want to read this!. Question on Black/Chinese KF Masters in History

[diego]

http://members.tripod.com/pointingbird/lostfeatherintl/id58.htm

So i know their were black kings in china, anyone have notes on black kungfu men?. Is their any blacks recognized as great warriors in chinese kf history?....any statues etc?.

[Vapour]

Hmm, never heard of this before.

Is this the same with Jesus being black stuff, taking very liberal definition of what is black. My guess is that these refer to people in South East Asia who are darker but certainly not African.

Muslim Kung Fu are very well know, the most famous one being Xingyi.

China was also a great civilization which traded with number of Islamic countries in Africa so I'm quite sure there were African (non-arab) traders and other who settled in China.

[Vapour]

Wait, they mention dravidian. I got it. Yes, they are dark but are not african or negroid.

[diego]

hello, i havent read the whole link yet, but i'm sure i read somewhere that their were actual africans who ruled as kings in china!?. Which part of the world are dravidians from agian?.

[rogue]

I've seen these folks on TV. They take words and twist them to support whatever point they're trying to make. Really quite entertaining.



American: The term "American" according to U.S. history was supposedly taken from the Italian navigator, Amerigo Vespucci. The truth is that the term, "America" is a two part word (Amer) taken from the French word, "Moor" which were the inhabitants of West Africa (Morocco, Mali). These Africans were also referred to as, "Muur, Mor" and "Morenos" in Spain to mean, "Black." The term, "Moor" is the root word of the Latin term, "Amor" which means, "Beloved" and was the term used in reference to the Moroccan kings who sailed via Spain and became religious leaders of the Vatican. The original Vatican priesthood was African! (Catholic = Cat Holistic or "Holy Cat" of Egypt symbolized by the Sphinx.) The Moroccan priesthood oversaw the Papal government. The term, "Rica" derived from the Middle English word "Ric" to mean "Power realm." Power was determined by bloodline and by wealth, thus the term, "Rich" or "Reich," and referred to the wealthy Moroccans that was depicted in the films, "Casablanca" and "The King and I". The term "American" literally refers to the early inhabitants of this land who wore gold in their noses.

I love the meaning of the word "Catholic", which I always thought was of Greek origin.
"katholikos, from katholou, in general"

[MonkeySlap Too]

What p!sses me off about this kind of sloppy scholarship is that it distracts people from the real acheivements of Africans and thier descendants and repaces it with a fantasy that supplies justification for not suceeding. It's easier to beleive that someone is holding you down*, rather than share the inspirational truths that lift you up.

Once again, it's those British explorers who gave us the concept of color = class. I get so irritated because I just see people, no matter what the KKK or louis farrakahn might say. I can understand this type of nonsense as a responce to living racism, but unfortunately, it just means the perpetrators win, as the victim moves into fantasy land.


*(especially, when in more practical terms it is happening to you every day. I'm a conservative and I'll be the first to tell you we still have serious f@cked up race issues here in the U.S. I've got a buddy in the midwest who, while in uniform gets treated like a king, but can't get a cab or good service when out with his family. How f@cked up is that?)

[Vapour]

Originally posted by diego
hello, i havent read the whole link yet, but i'm sure i read somewhere that their were actual africans who ruled as kings in china!?. Which part of the world are dravidians from agian?.

South Indians (e.g. Tamil) are the major decendant of dravidians. Australian Aboligines are also said to be strongly related. The bloodline of these people were widespread in Asia but they do not associate themselves with African.

Another thing these people of this site don't realised is that not every black (especially African) identify themselves solely on the basis of colour. In England, there are no single Black community. Instead, there are African communities and Caribean communities. It is possible to hear cussing between caribean and african people in which african might call caribean as a slave baby (or saying something like "we sold you guys") and carabean calling african an African (in derogately sence as in someone still living in stone age).

I met few Africans who ridicule black Americans who visit Africa to find their African root. For African, what define them are not colour of skin or DNA but their tribe and its culture.

[dezhen2001]

As far as i know, islam spread to china around the 2nd half of the 7th century during the rule of the Khalif Uthman. So islam has been there for a while, mainly because of trade. im sure also there was probably trade all along that route between many different peoples.

but going by the section rogue posted theres no need to get too het up about it imo :D

i agree, its something interesting - how cultures mingled and joined and something worth study :)

dawood

[guohuen]

Yup. Katholou, Gr. in general. Catholic, Lt. universal.

[Liokault]

What p!sses me off about this kind of sloppy scholarship is that it distracts people from the real acheivements of Africans and thier descendants


Like.....Really cool reggae, a laid back life style and fitting 18 inch split rim alloys on a honda.

[Liokault]

And what about the white Chinese? I was reading a bit about that a few years ago and do not remember to much but the link with scandinavian types in western china looks quite strong with many pointers being hidden by the chinese givernment.

Also the white "natives" for want of a better term on japans north island.

Also what do people think of american indians being mixed Chinese/African? Its the first time I ever heard that one.

[ZIM]

Another thing these people of this site don't realised is that not every black (especially African) identify themselves solely on the basis of colour....I met few Africans who ridicule black Americans who visit Africa to find their African root. For African, what define them are not colour of skin or DNA but their tribe and its culture.

Yes! It can't be called racist, more tribalist.

I've a cousin who spent time in the peace corps, in Burkina Faso. A 'prominent black American politician' [leave it at that] went there to talk about how 'whitey keeps them down in the USA' and how the 'brothers in Africa need to help them out'. Vile stuff, by report.

She was the only white in the arena. Her hosts were profoundly embarassed with this- thats just not the attitude.

I gotta say tho, this info is pretty cool. China is less monocultural than I thought. I mean I knew Han, Hakka, Tibetan, Mongol, Islam, etc. [and their attendant problems] But Dravidian?? :cool:

[dezhen2001]

hey is it just me or is this islamic :D

http://members.tripod.com/pointingbird/lostfeatherintl/12f83810.jpg

i can see ishmail and mecca on the map :D Is there a mecca in indiana?

dawood

[ZIM]

Didn't post for me, dezhen.

Edit: took out refs. What organization is it?

[dezhen2001]

its from the same website on the original post... :D

remember the moors have been muslim since almost islams inception - found that link rather funny :)

dawood

[ZIM]

Ah- thanks! Oddly, I've got to go through the main link...:confused: *Info warfare! Call Homeland Security!* Whoop! Whoop!

edit: the Q & A section is troublingly based on half-truths... it's the NA tribes that make determinations as to who is and is not NA, not the gov't. The gov't just does recognition of the tribe's determinations... Cherokee say 'one drop' is enough, Iroquois say matrilineal [I'm patrilineal Mohawk, I know!] The Seminole are both 'adopted' and mixed blood from many tribes in the floridas.

Half-breeds here are not recognized in the cultures of either, thats the rub- in Canada [Metis] or Mexico/S. America [Mestizo?], its different- they formed their own tribes. Legacy of bad relations not made better by this approach, IMHO.

To be entirely fair, they should also mention the neolithic Causaziod Beothuk tribe of Baffin Island, who were totally exterminated.

[dezhen2001]

thats interesting thanks dude :)

u learn something new every day :)

dawood

[ZIM]

sorry...I DO get carried away, don't I? :p oops.

[dezhen2001]

i was being serious :)

dawood

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Liokault
And what about the white Chinese? I was reading a bit about that a few years ago and do not remember to much but the link with scandinavian types in western china looks quite strong with many pointers being hidden by the chinese givernment.

Also the white "natives" for want of a better term on japans north island.

Also what do people think of american indians being mixed Chinese/African? Its the first time I ever heard that one.

There are area in China where inhabitant has more caucasian feature though this doesn't means they are related to scandinavian.

Strictly speaking categorising race/ethnicity with colour is totally outdated. Meranesian in Pacific islands, for example, have afro and dark skin but totally unrelated genetically from African. Indian are far darker than Oriental but more closely related to European.

Also there are group of villages in China whose inhabitants originated from Roman. Linguistic study identified their language as Latin.

[diego]

Well i'm glad your all friends now....UH anyone know about black kungfu men in china?:mad: :D

I read on another site their were, and i posted this to show their were blacks in china...so=NEXT:)

[ZIM]

[a little "Men On: Kung fu"/ in living color humor there. ;) ]


I read on another site their were, and i posted this to show their were blacks in china...so=NEXT Right. Thanks! I'll look around
----------------------------

not a whole lot in english, mostly french stuff, key word: negritos.

some sites [u might have them]:
http://www.trinicenter.com/FirstChinese.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Bay/7051/pac1.htm

http://www.edofolks.com/html/pub95.htm

http://clyde.winters.tripod.com/junezine/id1.html

Alot of repeated info on them. I do remember a recent-ish book [guns, germs and steel? maybe] a biologist was looking at diversity...he noted that madagascar's language & people were afro-polynesian, unique in Africa. Anyway, thats an angle to explore.
Hope that helps. :)

[GeneChing]

That's always a touchy subject with the chinese. There were definately some dark skinned warriors - probably the most predominent one that comes to mind is Jow Chong, the arms bearer for lord Kwan, kung fu patrons saint. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/70121.html) There are also many black faced gods and arhat. I've asked many Chinese point blank if these figures were black, and they almost always retort with immediate denial. It's funny, sort of like " they were black skinned byt they were not black," whatever that means. I remember hanging out with RZA at Wudang temple, and how he was so into the black taoist gods. He really liked the parallel symbolism when he found it. There was trade between China and Africa since way way back, so it's possible there were more influences, but such research is very difficult to validate and I'm uncomfortable with any such presentation as fact. Nevertheless, I'm very open to the possibilities...

p.s. Why is this thread directed to me? I'm not black and certanily not an authority on black history (or even chinese history...)

[ArrowFists]

Dravidians are blacker than any African American I've seen.

[Liokault]

Vapour, by white chinese i dont just mean pale chinese guys but northen ruropean peoples who migrated to china and setteled.

This much is fact. What happend to then is open to conjecture. Some think they mixed with the chinese till they were no longer a seperate people others think they were wiped out.

[diego]

Zim thanks for the links and after reading my mad sentence i know why you thought of toine..fuq you!:D

Gene, something told me if their is any famous kungfu heros in china from africa you would know more then say zim;)
Cheers

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Liokault
Vapour, by white chinese i dont just mean pale chinese guys but northen ruropean peoples who migrated to china and setteled.

This much is fact. What happend to then is open to conjecture. Some think they mixed with the chinese till they were no longer a seperate people others think they were wiped out.

If there is a village of Roman in China, I'm not surprised if there is a village of Nordic people in china as well. Then, it is hard to tell difference between Slavic people though.

[GeneChing]

I'm flattered by that, but I'm afriad I let you down on this one. I don't know much about blacks in China. It's something that I've been curious about myself, but haven't done any serious research on.

There's a non-Eurocentric way to view world history that might offer more light on this subject, but I've only looked at them in passing and don't have any ready references for you on that. It is out there, though. I fear that I'm a student of history by default. I have to learn it to keep things in perspective, but I don't really have a passion for it on it's own.

[African Tiger]

:rolleyes:

You just gotta love it when non-Africans interpret African history...


I wish I could respond to this in earnest, but I'm still without my own computer for a few more days. Rest assured, I am going to pick this post apart when I do, should it still be on the forum board. But let me preface by reiterating the FACT that JESUS was "black", and so were most of his apostles - his physical description in the bible should have told you that.

Point two: the earliest human skeletal remains were found in Africa, specifically Ethiopia.

Point three: the Egyptians illustrated katas on the walls of some pyramids, making them the first organized martial artists...but anyone who saw the Wesley Snipes documentary on The History Channel knows this by now ;)

[diego]

Gene, what do you think the chinese you talked to about black statues only being blackskinned were thinking...maybe in their eyes the statues had mythological influences in their makeup if the statues were of real people or they just don't like blacks?.:)

AT good to see you agian, please tear this mothafuqa a new a$$hole nah mean:D

[joedoe]

And any other Muslims that may be interested - when I was last in Xiamen (Fukkien province, China) I was told by our local guide that there is tomb in the city of two of the prophet Mohammed's disciples who had travelled to China to bring Islam to China, and had never returned to their homeland(s). The guide reckoned that if more Muslims knew about this, then Xiamen would most probably be almost as Holy a Muslim city as Mecca.

I dunno how true this is - have you ever heard of this?

[dezhen2001]

well i do know that in the generation after the prophet Muhammed islam had spread far - i think due more to trading and other things it got to China...

Didnt know it got to Fukien though :D i thought it was mainly the Hui in the NE? learn something new each day :) Are there many mosques there?

As far as i know, Mecca is only Holy because it houses the Kabbah (and the cave where he sat for ages away from society) and Medinah only because its where the first mosque was properly build (where Muhammed is buried). But really its Mecca thats the place.

So even if there are disciples buried there, there are also many who travelled all over the middle east and beyond.

i dont think it would be as popular as either of those 2 cities in Saudi as muslims are only instructed to do the "hajj" which is like a pilgrimage to Mecca (if you can afford it), but for sure its pretty kewl - maybe for chinese muslims :)

dawood

[Stacey]

I have yet to see any afro-suppremecist scholarship that isn't as backwards as a nazi archeologist.

Africa had a few short lived civilizations that mostly sucked. The end. The Egyptians did well, Nubia as well, but the place never really got giong until the Arabs started taking over and enslaving people.

Most African American haven't bothered to learn any real history simply because it wasnt taught in school. Ok, Jesus was Black and not semetic. Who cares? Is that all you have? Do you think that the many civilizations of Africa only came up with game with nuts, a thumb piano and a drum? If so, I can see why unread Africans might cling so dearly to Egypt.

Its as logical as Inuit taking pride in the temples of Tenochitlan or Apache lamenting the theft of Incan gold.

If you are using such sloppy scholarship, the KKK at least does a "slightly" better job. Ironically, they also lay claim to Egypt.

[Suntzu]

:rolleyes:

[ZIM]

Its as logical as the royalty of Europe and the KKK being proud of the fact that they're inbred! *huff*puff* :D

Revel in ignorance! Yeah!

[shaolin kungfu]

Africa had a few short lived civilizations that mostly sucked. The end. The Egyptians did well, Nubia as well, but the place never really got giong until the Arabs started taking over and enslaving people.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. To say that Egypt did well is a vast understatement. As for short lived, they're culture had a longer history than the greeks and romans combined.

The west african city of timbuktu was a major trading center that rivaled cities in europe. I'm pretty sure this means it didn't suck.

[Black Jack]

Actually Ireland has the oldest intact building in the world, which one could take as meaning a civilization, it is far older than Stonehenge and the Pyramids of Egypt, Built over 5,200 years ago, the structure is a large stone temple with a entrance covered in white quartz stones, inside are spiral carvings symbolic of the evolving soul.

It is called Newgrange. You can find it right north of Dublin.

[diego]

Where can i find more info on the tibetan view that jesus studied bhuddism?. I have heard this from other scholars and it makes sence as jesus studied in egypt and bhuddism made its way to egypt within the 500 years it was founded to when jesus was born.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by GeneChing
. . .I've asked many Chinese point blank if these figures were black, and they almost always retort with immediate denial. It's funny, sort of like " they were black skinned byt they were not black," whatever that means. . .[/B]

I haven't read through this whole thread so forgive me if this has been answered already. Yours was the only post I read so far which seemed to ask the question instead of coming up with some sort of half baked theory about CHinese black muslims.

In Chinese, "black" or "white" is the pretty standard adjective for referreing to someones complexion, not race. Someone with a tan or a ruddy complexion is referred to as being "really black". Pale skin is "white". My Chinese girlfriend always gets teased for being so "black" because she tans in the summer. Grammatically:
heiren = black person = negro
zhege ren hen hei = this person is very black = dark/ruddy/tanned skin.
bairen = white person = westerner
zhege ren hen bai = this person is very white = light/pale skin or clear complexion.

All Chinese beauties in stories are described as having "white" skin. Warriors and workers all have dark/black skin. Priveledged upper class, scholars and other rich folk are pale skinned/white. Warrior gods are traditionally painted black or red. The color in Chinese art are never meant to be directly representational. Look at Chinese opera. Each character is painted in a style particular to their character. It doesn't indicate race.


In Chinese cartoons, the characters are not painted with slanted eyes. ...Does this mean the characters are western?

Chinese Muslims like the Hui are visually indestinguishable from Han Chinese.

Chinese Muslims like the Ouigers are turkick and have white skin like other caucasians.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Liokault
And what about the white Chinese? I was reading a bit about that a few years ago and do not remember to much but the link with scandinavian types in western china looks quite strong with many pointers being hidden by the chinese givernment.


You may be thinking of the caucasian remains found in the Gobi desert some years back. They are older than Chinese history and wear wool garments, which indicates a Nomadic culture. Han Chinese articles of the same period were hemp or cotton. The bodies were extordinarily preserved due the the extreme dryness and high salinity of the Gobi (Taklamakan) dessert.

[shaolin kungfu]

It's believed those bodies in the gobi desert were celtic.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by diego
Where can i find more info on the tibetan view that jesus studied bhuddism?. I have heard this from other scholars and it makes sence as jesus studied in egypt and bhuddism made its way to egypt within the 500 years it was founded to when jesus was born.

There is a book called "The Lost Years of Jesus Christ" by a biblical scholar called Elizabeth Prohpet that explores this theory.

There is another book called "Two Masters One Message" that touches on it too (I cannot remember the author).

[omarthefish]

Could be Celtic. They had blond hair...

Anyways, I just got back from the site where this thing came from. Still laughing at the revisionist wishfull thinking. He mentions 'Xuan Di' the "black emperor". "Black" is "hei" in Chinese. 'Xuan' can mean black but more typically means 'mysterious'. Dark and impenatrable. In the first chapter of the "Tao De Jing", 'Xuan' is used to describe the Tao. Is the Tao a black man too? :(

[joedoe]

Culturally the lower classes in China were considered dark skinned because they spent much of their time working in the sun. The higher classes were white skinned because they were able to spend their days indoors. There is still a trace of this cultural behaviour still in some Chinese people, where pale skin is considered more cultured or beautiful and darkened or tanned skin is considered a sign of a less cultured person of the working class.

[Serpent]

Interestingly, though slightly tangential, Indian people consider the paler the better with skin tone too.

Probably for much the same reasons as the Chinese like Joe just described above.

[Starchaser107]

ghthomason

egypt was originally a part of africa
if you look at the earlier statues of egyptian kings and queens you will see that they are black people.

do modern day egyptians consider themselves black, probably not, but are modern day americans native indian for the vast majority , no.

people shouldnt bring hazy facts into the picture true. i think people might be straying from the point though, i believe the question that was posed was about the presence of africans in chinese history.

there must have been. what thier lives were like might be difficult to find out.the european marco polo made it there why couldnt others from other races/continents.