Answers to question thread Rogue refuses to answer

[NYerRoman]

As it is said....there is always a reason or background.

ANSWERS to other thread:
1. How many Kurds does Turkey kill a year?

Merryprankster got it right. See other thread.
But there have been thousands
of deaths a year due to the conflict. How many, no one really knows. Amnesty and human rights groups only conjure a guess.

2. How many Nicaraguans were killed in the 80s for which the US was condemned for international terrorism by the World Court on 31 March 1986?

Tens of thousands. About 35, 000 as an estimate.

3. How many Vietnamese were killed in the Vietnam War? There were 55 000 Americans killed or MIA.

US figures: 2-3 million.
UN figures: 3-4 million.
(they didn't teach this to us in high school)


4. When Saddam killed the 60 000 Kurds in 1986, why did GW Sr renew his trading status in 1989?

He was a US ally and it was more important he keep oil prices down and crush the Shiites in the south.

5. Why did we arm Saddam in the 80s and make him our ally?

He fought Iran and quelled shiite insurrections in the south. He brought stability to the country, although as an oppressor. We reflagged his ships with American flags to transport the oil through the Persian Gulf....remember that??? He was our kind of guy that Saddam....

6. Why did George Schultz, Sec'y of State under Reagan, make it a State Department policy of the US government NOT to negotiate with the Iraqi democratic opposition in exile?

He was a US ally and the opposition was trying to overthrow him. This would have created a power vacuum in the country allowing unfriendly factions to take power and raise oil prices or ally themselves with Iran or another Arab nation.
Like what's going to happen when we finally get rid of Saddam...you know the Shiites in the South and the Kurds in the north...big fargin' problems....

7. Why did the Washington Post put Rumsfeld on the front cover three months ago in a picture of him and Saddam shaking hands during a meeting in the 1980s?

Rumsfeld went to give Saddam our unconditional support when we reflagged his ships with American flags going through the Persian Gulf.

Oh I forgot...he was an evil dictator then and we have to get rid of him.......

[Kristoffer]

Yeah this war is crap

[Merryprankster]

Context. How many freaking times must it be said?

Cold war and now are not the same thing. Our foreign policy looks different. Is it inconsistent. Yup. Do I care? Nope. Why? Because our actions during the Cold War led us to victory. The overall improvement in the human condition justifies containment policy and the steps we took to ensure containment worked.

Deal with it. Those of you who believe that we can sit around with people who don't care about human rights dunking cookies in milk until we all feel empowered to change and have a glorious love-in without war and death aren't living in this reality.

This is the really real world, where people like Saddam, and institutions like the Soviet Union don't care how many people they smash in order to maintain power. Here's a real quick clue about how power works--only totalitarian regimes behave that way. Democratic nations don't because their power is derived differently. To apply the same reasoning when comparing totalitarian regimes and democracies is fallacious at best and simply stupid at worst.

To those of you whining about the conspiracy at the top and how we're being ruled by a dictatorial regime with a madman at its head, shut the **** up. Nobody in human history has had it so good in terms of physical, material, or intellectual freedom.

People have gotten more humanitarian over time--more respectful of human life and more respectful of the native rights each individual possesses by dint of being born--not less. Don't believe me? Go read a few history books--cruelty and death were instruments of the state against not only other nations but their own peoples. Those of you who suggest that hasn't changed in the aggregate are either morons or willfully obtuse.

Democracy, whether republican or otherwise, is superior to all other forms of government. There, I said it. On top of that, the philosophical values that birthed democracy and continue to fuel it today have borne out to be inherently better for the human race than any other way of life in the history of man. We are better off in every way that counts.

Those of you that would like to dicsuss how "morally equal," philosophies and governments are, lack the courage to stand-up and be counted. Moral relativism is a jumping off point for making value judgments--not a nihilistic call for inaction.

To those of you that think we're imperialist, the U.S. is not now and has never demonstrated itself to be imperialist. We get in and we get out. When we nation build, we actually do it pretty well. We get out and mind our own business so well, in fact, that Germany and Japan are perfectly willing to oppose us in many situations.

[rogue]

Merry, ever get the feeling that you're talking to cats, ala Gary Larsons Farside? NYR is a true believer and not open to reason, facts or experience.

I think he deserves one of your patented "Thanks for playing" signatures.

[Kuen]

Because our actions during the Cold War led us to victory.

"Victory"?, Typical American short sightedness, never looking past the end of your own nose. Our actions during the cold war led to this current situation.

[dwid]

"Victory"?, Typical American short sightedness, never looking past the end of your own nose. Our actions during the cold war led to this current situation.

"During," but not related to the cold war. If you want to blame Cold War politics for Osama Bin Laden, that's one thing, but our policy in the Middle East, while taking place during the Cold War, was not directly related to it. There was never much threat of a spread of communism to Iran, and our initial support of Saddam was quite simply part of an effort to combat Iran.

Your statement is also far too simplistic. Our actions during the cold war led to a good many things. One of them is a world where the total number of nuclear weapons is on the decline rather than on the rise, among other things.

MP made a lot of good points. I find it odd that you took just one sentence, totally out of context, and this was the best you could come up with as a retort.

[dwid]

One other thing, in response to the initial post in this thread...

It seems a lot of the arguments against action in Iraq revolve around the rather flimsy premise that if we were responsible for creating Saddam Hussein, then that means we should leave him alone.

This is totally illogical. When you make a mistake, you try to rectify it. All the finger-pointing about how U.S. policy of the past has created the current environment only suggests that we rethink future foreign policy, it has no bearing on whether we should deal with current threats. Whether it was us or f-ing Santa Claus that created people like Osama and Saddam is immaterial in context of the need to deal with the here-and-now.

[Ryu]

"Those of you that would like to dicsuss how "morally equal," philosophies and governments are, lack the courage to stand-up and be counted. Moral relativism is a jumping off point for making value judgments--not a nihilistic call for inaction."


I love you, Merry. :D And I'm not afraid to admit it to the board. ;)


Ryu

[NYerRoman]

The spread of communism was not relevant b/c the Cold War was not just about that.....duh.

It was about controlling the Earth's resources as well. Come on people...stop being so simplistic. Controlling the crude brings wealth and a lot of influence and control.

AND...the US not imperialistic b/c "we're in and out". Are you
fu(king insane? Economic imperialism is the core to American foreign policy. Read the books buck-o.

Dwid...you make a mistake and have the right to rectify it???? What drugs you taking?
Oh yeah, woops, we give him weapons and money and when he killed the Kurds we said something but gave him MORE WEAPONS AND MONEY and GB Sr renewed his trading status until 1989 and it was State Department (George Schultz) policy to NOT negotiate with Saddam's opposition in exile....

Woops. We made a mistake and we're trying to rectify it according to you????
Loser.

[dwid]

Woops. We made a mistake and we're trying to rectify it according to you????

The basic point I was making (which apparently was not put simply enough for you to understand it) is that whatever the reasons are for current circumstances , these reasons are essentially irrelevant to whether or not current circumstances should be dealt with.

[Merryprankster]

The spread of communism was not relevant b/c the Cold War was not just about that.....duh.

Ah, I see. And which alternate universe are you from?


It was about controlling the Earth's resources as well. Come on people...stop being so simplistic. Controlling the crude brings wealth and a lot of influence and control.

Oh you're so RIGHT! Why didn't I see this before?! The Cold War was about OIL! That's why we fought proxy wars against the Soviet Union, and beefed up our presence with our focal points in Europe and the Far East, instead of trying to control the Middle East, or Western Hemisphere oil producers like Venezuela. Gosh, I see the light--why waste our resources trying to control the huge deposits of crude oil in the Arabian Peninsula and South America when, the CLEAR path to the oil was through beefing up our military presence in the Western Pacific and Europe. Brilliant! Instead of economically smashing or occupying nations that had no infrastructure 40 or 50 years ago--that we could have absolutely rolled over either way--we'll choose the much simpler and less complicated route of protracted hostilities against a powerful nation. Boy, I'm sure glad that's cleared up!


AND...the US not imperialistic b/c "we're in and out". Are you Fu(king insane? Economic imperialism is the core to American foreign policy. Read the books buck-o.

Ah, the classic argument! Exploitation of the masses! McDonald's on every corner! Levis in the stores! It's a plot against the world! (Oh, the horror....)

Remind me to tell you sometime why globalization is the best thing that will ever happen to the human race.

[apoweyn]

Controlling the crude brings wealth and a lot of influence and control.

By 'crude', do you mean 'spice'? If so, I think we might have answered MerryP's question about what alternate universe you hail from.


Stuart B.

[dwid]

"He who controls the spice controls the universe"

If MP has any spice exposure, I sure as hell wouldn't want to grapple with him. If he can fold space, imagine what he could do to your arms/legs/neck...ouch.

:D

[red5angel]

LOL!@ Ap, nice Dune reference....


Kuen - typical small sightedness in your comments. You should go back and re evaluate what you said as it pertains to this thread.

HOLY CRAP!!!! The cold war was about OIL?!?!?!?!? So if NYeroman has it right the only reason political bodies exist in the first place, the only reason small tribes of human beings into large globally spanning governments is OIL?!?!?!??

keeerist man, you want to talk about oversimplification, according to you brother every fight from here back to the beginning is about crude oil.

[NYerRoman]

merryprankster...
I'm shocked at you.
You are kidding when you write these things????
1. The Cold War went beyond ideological differences. The Soviets were amazing businessmen. Look at the former communists now...they're the richest men in the world.

2. Explotaition of the masses is the cornerstone of the economic system. Where were your nike shoes made...or puma or addidas or reebok or levi jeans or whatever.....?

3. You know what happened to Venezuela? The White House was on the phone with the coup leaders when the coup-d'etat happened. It is oil.

What is wrong with you. Sometimes you're cool...sometimes you're not.
I don't like you right now. And it's not b/c you don't agree with me. Oil is power. Exploitation exists. Factories are placed throughout the world for cheap labor and no regulations of any sort.

[norther practitioner]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/03/24/son_of_saddam/

This is a good article from SI

[rogue]

What is wrong with you(MerryPrankster). Sometimes you're cool...sometimes you're not. I don't like you right now. I think someone is showing they're female side. :D

[Merryprankster]

What is wrong with you. Sometimes you're cool...sometimes you're not. I don't like you right now. And it's not b/c you don't agree with me.

NYer, it sounds to me like it IS because I don't agree with you. FWIW, my sarcastic tone of voice is because I'm dead tired of everything in the world being America's fault, or capitalisms fault or etc, etc, etc. I have very specific problems with your arguments, not your opinions, and you've provided no evidence, other than a personal hunch, or I suspect something you've gleaned from the editorials, to back up your claims.

I will write more, later, when I have the time, and will do so sans sarcasm, if you promise not to throw triteness at me ("Oil is power," "exploitation exists," "War is Peace," "Freedom is Slavery," etc.) or tell me how smart Noam Chomsky is, ok? :D