Jong Sao - what is it?

[5thBrother]

Jong Sao - Cantonese, Palm inward block. Knifehand-like high,
outer parry that lies somewhere between a Biu Sao
and a Tan Sao


can any one decsibe for me more clearly what this is .. i think its like a outward knife hand block - like a bent sat sao as a block.. or the outward knife hand block of karate say ...

anyone clarify please?

thanks

[KPM]

Jong Sau is the opening technique of the dummy form in the YMWCK method. Picture it kind of like a Tan Sau that stops half-way. Contact is with the back of the hand rotating slightly outward to clear the center. It would be similar to a Tan that does not rotate to a fully palm-up position. It is used to "break" an opponent's guard position to create an opening. At least that's my take on it. :-) I'm sure others can elaborate further.

Keith

[wingchunalex]

its your lead arm in bi jong (fighting stance, on guard). while wu sau (protective hand) is your rear hand.

[KPM]

I always heard the lead hand in the guard position referred to as a "man sau" or "asking hand" because it is the one in front "asking" the opponent what their intention or response will be. It "probes" or "asks" for an opening. Jong Sau would be a specific technique from that Man Sau position.

Keith

[5thBrother]

thanks guys.. :)

kpm



so its a "block" with the back of the hand and muscles side of the forearm .. kinda like an open hand backfist or back hand slap? wityh a very slight outward ? ...

wcalex


as kmp replied i thought the front hand was "man sao" .. can also be called jong sao in ur school? or is there some difference?

thanks :)

[5thBrother]

i just realised..

is this aka chan sao? .. does anyone recognise the term

chan sao?


further .. how about gang sao who uses that term? what does it mean to u?

thanks

[yuanfen]

"jong sao" is not a "block" in the common non wc sense of the term.

[reneritchie]

Jong Sao basically means "posture hands". It's most common usage is to describe the way the hands are held in Bai Jong (Assuming Posture). Although not a specific arrangement, the classic one would probably be the Tan Sao (Dispersing Arm) Wu Sao (Protecting Arm).

So, it's not a "block" or anything like that, closer to an "en guard".

[Savi]

Greetings 5th Brother, I’d like to share some details of the Jong Sau from my kung fu family. Jong Sau plays a very important role in our family’s WC because for us, it is the foundation of many other techniques. Well there are other reasons as well… Again, the information below is what I understand from my family only.

Nature:
The nature of the Jong Sau is quite simple. By understanding the details of the Jong Sau you can see one thing is clear. It is designed to protect your center from attack. Being defensive in its nature, the effectiveness of its use (as with anything) depends highly on the practitioner. The other techniques listed below build on this nature. It is said in the Hung Fa Yi family that the center is the origin of everything. Maintain center and you can control yourself. Lose your center, and you really have no choice but to struggle with your enemy. Jong Sau is part of our family WC’s foundational training.

Principles and Concepts:
To make your Jong Sau functional, mentally and physically, you must understand six basic ideas.

1) Go to and occupy center
2) Continuous forward movement
3) Inner and Outer gates
4) Hand replacement
5) Two parts work as one
6) Body unity, sinking the horse to the root

Definition and example:
Jong Sau is translated to “structure hand” in English. This “positioning” of the hands illustrates two specific points in space where everything starts and stops. For example, a punch could be thrown from the back hand position (Wu Sau), but after its extension and recoil it must end at the front hand position (Mahn Sau/Kiu Sau). In our family the Jong Sau is commonly referred to as a 'Two-line offense and defense.' Or sometimes we refer to the Jong Sau as the cross hairs on a gun – a targeting device.

Function:
With regard to combat, it is designed to give you the ability to have a simultaneous offense and defense at a specific distance from your enemy, whilst retaining control your own personal space. To do this, and not jam your own parts, you must be familiar with the structure and mechanics of a Jong Sau.

Space:
Jong Sau takes into account proper spacing of your body’s parts. In the Moy Yat family, the Jong Sau aligns the wrists on the center of the body averaging about one fist and a thumb between the body and the wrist for the back hand, and another ‘fist and thumb’ from the body to the elbow – to measure the extension of the lead hand. Both elbows must be pointed down to the ground as much as possible. The height of the hands is oriented anywhere between the diaphragm and the shoulder height.

From a bird’s eye view you can begin to see the shape of a triangle, using each shoulder as the base and the leading hand as the apex of the triangle. This space is your battlefield, and where the majority of your training is spent defending. Also note that a triangle is more or less a wedge, therefore it implies that to make the ‘wedge’ work it must move forward.

If my description is accurate enough you should see the spacing of the hands depth-wise is symmetrical. Symmetry equates to balance and the efficient use of space, thus giving you the ability to have adaptability at close range combat.

Note:
Jong Sau is also indirectly trained by other basic yet primary techniques of the system such as Paak Sau & Paak Da, Wu Sau & Wu Da, and Tan Sau to name a few. These all share the same mechanics of the Jong Sau and vice versa, but with the changing of the hand position, the function and the effect of its use in essence also changes its nature.

Again, these are just some details I thought could be helpful to you.

Take care,
-Savi.

[yuanfen]

5th brother. Are you doing/learning wing chun now/ How does your teacher do it? You had used the term "knife hand block" in your first post- which comes from non wc perspectives.

Jong sao has many purposes. Not just defense.The first section of the mok yan jong highlights the jong.

It can be part of bai jong as Rene pointed out and you can use
it in an attack.

[Savi]

5th Brother, does your kung fu also have a Jong Sau? And if so, how is it used? What is its nature? Could you describe it for us?

Originally posted by yuanfen
Jong sao has many purposes. Not just defense.The first section of the mok yan jong highlights the jong.

It can be part of bai jong as Rene pointed out and you can use it in an attack.
Jong Sau most certainly serves many purposes as my previous post discusses... To highlight the point, Sifu Chaudhuri's last post supports these comments below.

Originally posted by Savi
*...It is designed to protect your center from attack.*

... In our family the Jong Sau is commonly referred to as a 'Two-line offense and defense.'

... Or sometimes we refer to the Jong Sau as the cross hairs on a gun – a targeting device. (that's @ Bai Jong as Rene points out)

... it is designed to give you the ability to have a simultaneous offense and defense at a specific distance from your enemy, whilst retaining control your own personal space.

... Also note that a triangle is more or less a wedge, therefore it implies that to make the ‘wedge’ work it must move forward.

... Symmetry equates to balance and the efficient use of space, thus giving you the ability to have adaptability at close range combat.

Again, these are just some details I thought could be helpful to you.
Thanks for your time,
-Savi.

[reneritchie]

Savi,

Man/Wu would be another classic. Good point.

Another consideration is whether or not there is "set up" time, ie. whether you know an attack is coming in advance and can set up as ideal a pre-contact posture (inlc. jong sao) as possible, or if you have little or no warning and your reflexes must engage at first impression however they can given the circumstances, and then work to achieve better.

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Another consideration is whether or not there is "set up" time, ie. whether you know an attack is coming in advance and can set up as ideal a pre-contact posture (inlc. jong sao) as possible, or if you have little or no warning and your reflexes must engage at first impression however they can given the circumstances, and then work to achieve better.
I think this would be different from Jong Sau discussion. For me to partake in this discussion I can only reference HFY from my information, Rene. I know you do not want to discuss HFY as said in a closed thread, but please refer back to the early Kiu Sau threads a few months prior which discuss HFY's progressions of Fau Kiu - Kiu Sau if you are interested, it would address your question. Either that or perhaps a new thread could be started about your question. But again, based on my experience, the best answer I could give you would be in HFYWCK.

Thanks Rene,
-Savi.

[yuanfen]

With good practice- one can do jong sao without setting up
or getting into bai jong.

[taltos]

Rene,

The inability to "set up" is, in my opinion, one heck of a scary timeframe to find yourself in. When you are caught almost completely unaware, you are arguably in the most dangerous position you could possibly be in. (I say "almost" because at least you ARE aware of the attack, and it wasn't a complete blindside.) For the sake of the discussion, let's say your hands were down and you have almost no time to react, let alone set up, but you did see it coming.

It has always seemed to me that, at least in application, anything you do under those circumstances had better be a recovery. Whether you call it Biu Ji (as debated in an earlier thread), or it's just a biu sau or a mahn sau or a faat sau, You had better make sure that you are doing two things when you act:

1. Clear the threatened space.

2. Recover/regain control of the battlefield.

I've always seen this moment in time as being the "bridgeless" version of when you have lost the line in chi sau. You ARE NOT in control, and you have the blink of an eye to turn that around.

Of course, with proper Bai Jong the risk of that first, bridgeless attack is minimized significantly, but when caught by surprise you have to immidiately go from one step behind to one step ahead. Risky business, to be sure.

In the Yip Man lineage I train, these "emergency hands," designed to clear the area quickly, include (but are not limited to): Biu Sau (high gates), Mahn Sau (high gates), Faat Sau (high gates), Gaan Sau (low gates), Jaam Sau (high and middle gates), Gaan Jaam Sau (high and middle gates), etc. etc., in additon to all of those wonderful Biu Ji recovery hands we train but hope we never have to use.

How does this relate to Jong Sau? From what I've been exposed to, in this situation you really don't have a Jong Sau position, you have a Jong Sau motion. Whatever you did, if it accomplishes the two things above, allows you to "place" your hands where they are need for maximum WC effectiveness. We refer to the perfect Bai Jong hand position as Jong Sau, but it could also refer to the act of positioning your hands.

Just a thought. Anyone else with another take on it?

-Levi

[Rob Wolf]

Jong Sau is indeed performed in the opening of the Wooden dummy, The hands form a triangle and both hands move forward together for optimum structural power,Deflecting incoming movements very well.

Worthy of mention is "BUE JONG SAU" which is the long bridge version of Jong Sau and is introduced in the first section of the Chum Kiu form. Bue Jong sau can be used to shoot into the opponents shoulder joint to utilize a type of "stop Hit" tecnique.(all very much based on angle structure and a type of slipping, while striking)

Jong Sau is Deflective in nature, bieng based on a triangle and is used as a bridge to contact the opponents bridge , continuing into a tan or bong, etc. This is a good example of Wing Chun's touch and go method, I.e. The hands do not "BLOCK" per se yet contact the bridge and flow into response counters......Hope this helps....

Regards , Sifu Lopez www.sillumwingchun.com

[Savi]

I'd like to get a clarification on the following, because it seems a couple of the posts here:

1) are associating Jong Sau exclusively with Bai Jong, or

2) are of the understanding that Jong Sau is used to engage the bridge, which contradicts #1 above, or

3) say Jong Sau is a static positioning of the hands, or

4) say Jong Sau could possibly any 'technique' representing a "post/structure hand"

Just my impression of the posts here thusfar.

I haven't read too many posts here actually describing what their understanding of Jong Sau is, rather, how and where it is used.

For one, Sifu Chaudhuri and Sifu Lopez reference the Wooden Dummy for one application of their Jong Sau. That leaves me with the impression that Jong Sau is first trained at the Muk Yan Jong then in their lineage? Or no?

Also, since Jong Sau is seemingly different within the lineages, may I ask what EXACTLY is Bai Jong to the posters here?

-Savi.

[reneritchie]

Hi Savi,


I think this would be different from Jong Sau discussion. For me to partake in this discussion I can only reference HFY from

I see them as aspects of a whole.


For me to partake in this discussion I can only reference HFY from my information, Rene. I know you do not want to discuss HFY

My problem is that if you talk HFY, and I disagree, it looks like I'm disagreeing with HFY, not with you (even if prefaced by "your understanding of"). Some of the larger arguments have started that way, so I feel avoiding the labels and just sticking to our own thoughts, even if they reflect a silent label, is more productive.

Hi Levi, thanks for joining in!


The inability to "set up" is, in my opinion, one heck of a scary timeframe to find yourself in.

I agree its scary, but also think its common, and that makes it all the more important. You raise some excellent points as well!

The way I learned, the movements/response pattern broke down pretty much:

If you had enough time, you could move into superior position and counter.

If you had less time, you could attain a neutral position and counter.

If you had little time, you could counter for the disadvatageous position to create opportunity to improve position/follow up.

If you had almost no time, you could defend from the disadvantageous position to create opportunity to improve position and counter.

So, in a bad situation, you may only have time to raise an intercepting arm and deflect an attack (maybe only partially), but your body would have to be programmed to take what little opportunity that provided to get into better posture, maybe even position, and begin disrupting the opponent.

WRT how this relates to Jong Sao, I'm a big believer that there are no positions or poses, just actions or motions. Jong Sao is a bit of an exeption in that, in precontact, if there's time, good Jong Sao minimizes your profile (physically by creating angles that would shear away certain lines of attack, mentally by placing threatening elements in the opponent's way.) The opportunity cost of this (*everything* has a risk/reward ratio that you need to understand) is that it telegraphs as well - gives away you structure to a trained eye, gives away that you've been trained, and gives away that you will use that training. For this reason, I learned not to assume my posture until an opponent is close and intent enough that contact is imminent. (the opportunity cost for this is potentially not good enough training/reflex to assume in time).

[woseung]

In a general term Jong Sao is used to set up and properly face an opponent. In more technical discussion some systems use Jong Sao primarily as a guarding position and others use it as a way to target opponents. Some systems even go past the techniques of Jong Sao and use it from a tactical point of view.

" A novice in the discussion of Jong Sao would be concerned with what is and what is not. A practitioner with deeper insight would understand the true nature of Jong Sao is determined by the measure in which a person has attained liberation from self. The total experience of the practioners journey should be realized."

[Savi]

Originally posted by woseung
In a general term Jong Sao is used to set up and properly face an opponent. In more technical discussion some systems use Jong Sao primarily as a guarding position and others use it as a way to target opponents. Some systems even go past the techniques of Jong Sao and use it from a tactical point of view.

Welcome to the form Woseung!

In the HFY family (I am part of), facing is multi-layered and specific in each layer.

1) A general facing is referred to as "Chiu Meen", more of watching the perimeter.

2) A more 'intent' facing where you are aware of the threat we call "Deui Yeng", where your body is oriented to the enemy

3) A 'proper' or complete/total facing we call "Jeui Yeng", where all your weapons are ready to be - or already are - in use against the opponent.

-------------------------------------------

Jong Sau in my family is primarily used as a foundation to build the proper expression of several concepts through our body structure and its motions. It might also be viewed as the foundation of many other techniques, being that in our family it is trained first and upfront.

When I use the Jong Sau in the context of targeting, I use it as a means to "lock on" to potential weaknesses in the opponent's defensive or offensive structure.

-Savi.

[taltos]

Originally posted by reneritchie
The way I learned, the movements/response pattern broke down pretty much:

If you had enough time, you could move into superior position and counter.

If you had less time, you could attain a neutral position and counter.

If you had little time, you could counter for the disadvatageous position to create opportunity to improve position/follow up.

If you had almost no time, you could defend from the disadvantageous position to create opportunity to improve position and counter.

So, in a bad situation, you may only have time to raise an intercepting arm and deflect an attack (maybe only partially), but your body would have to be programmed to take what little opportunity that provided to get into better posture, maybe even position, and begin disrupting the opponent.

I totally agree. I've been taight that the most dangerous time in an engagement is before the bridge is built, Jong Sau or not. That's when you are limited to the speed of your eye-hand coordination, because you have no bridge to utilize your sensitivity. That's what I meant by "Clear the threatened space" and "Recover/regain control of the battlefield." The most important thing is to get something between your opponent and you. Preferably something that allows you to immidiately "read" the bridge and tell your feet (and the rest of you) where you need to be.


WRT how this relates to Jong Sao, I'm a big believer that there are no positions or poses, just actions or motions.

Definately. Hand out, palm up is not Taan, because you're not really dispersing anything unless it's in motion and interacting with an external force.


I learned not to assume my posture until an opponent is close and intent enough that contact is imminent.

By this do you mean the Bui Jong point? (We also call it the "Go Point.) I mean, is that range the distance at which the opponent could begin to compromise your reaction time if they get any closer? If so, we train in a basically similar fashion, in that we try to remain "neutral" (only worrying about general facing) and don't "set up" our hands until the opponent is in a range that could allow a long range attack. Then, closer than that, is the "Go Point," the point at which all bets are off, and WC range has been entered (the "line in the sand," if you will).

Thanks for the good points, it definately gives me more to think about.

-Levi

[Tom Kagan]

My problem is that if you talk HFY, and I disagree, it looks like I'm disagreeing with HFY, not with you (even if prefaced by "your understanding of"). Some of the larger arguments have started that way, so I feel avoiding the labels and just sticking to our own thoughts, even if they reflect a silent label, is more productive.

Rene, if we really want to have some fun, imagine if I chose to say that, even though you never met my Sifu, your interpretation of JongSao (and Joy's) is closer to what Moy Yat taught as JongSao than what Savi says is the "Moy Yat method" and that his physical description of how I and most of my SiHings supposedly stand is a bit off the mark.

But I don't want to appear as if I disagree with the "Moy Yat Method" instead of just disagreeing with Savi, do I? So, I won't say it, regardless of what silent label it reflects on me. ;)

Simply put, JongSao just means "neutral", and is more correctly thought of as a concept than a specific hand/stance placement.

As you very aptly pointed out, it's "en garde."

Moy Yat taught that the classic JongSao position (whatever that may be given your lineage or even your particular martial art style) can unecessarily escalate a situation. To anyone who spent enough time with him, Moy Yat gave many example JongSao positions which did not give an appearance of a challange and also a few examples that were intentionally provocative.

As one final thought, JongSao does not specifically apply to martial arts. Even golf has its own JongSao if a person considers it from the proper perspective (how do you say "pitching wedge" in Cantonese? :) ).

[reneritchie]

Levi,


By this do you mean the Bui Jong point? (We also call it the "Go Point.) I mean, is that range the distance at which the opponent could begin to compromise your reaction time if they get any closer?

Yes, mixed with a read of their intent (your girlfriend when you come home late vs. the masked man oggling your wallet), and constant training to minimize reaction time and maximize quality of reaction.

Hi Tom,


Moy Yat taught that the classic JongSao position (whatever that may be given your lineage or even your particular martial art style) can unecessarily escalate a situation.

My sigung, and hence my sifu, taught similar.


As one final thought, JongSao does not specifically apply to martial arts. Even golf has its own JongSao if a person considers it from the proper perspective (how do you say "pitching wedge" in Cantonese? ).

LOL! True enough. (Ngaw m'sik wan "golf").

[taltos]

Originally posted by reneritchie
constant training to minimize reaction time and maximize quality of reaction.

Well stated! 11 words that basically sums up the focus of virtually all of our training tools.

Thanks for the pleasant conversation.

-Levi

[reneritchie]

Thanks for the pleasant conversation.

Same here!

[Savi]

Hi Tom,

Originally posted by Tom Kagan
if we really want to have some fun, imagine if I chose to say that, even though you never met my Sifu, your interpretation of JongSao (and Joy's) is closer to what Moy Yat taught as JongSao than what Savi says is the "Moy Yat method" and that his physical description of how I and most of my SiHings supposedly stand is a bit off the mark.
No need for the discretion... I am quite open for conversation Tom! The description below is MY understanding of the Moy Yat family Jong Sau as Sitaigung Moy Yat discussed here at Mengs of AZ back in 1999. Not to say anything bad about you or anyone, but I did spend some valuable private time with him where he gave me some invaluable insights. The words below were not specifically his words, but my own. I did preface that it was my understanding of the MYVTK Jong Sau.

Originally posted by Savi
Again, the information below is what I understand from my family only...

Originally posted by Savi
Space:
Jong Sau takes into account proper spacing of your body’s parts. In the Moy Yat family, the Jong Sau aligns the wrists on the center of the body averaging about one fist and a thumb between the body and the wrist for the back hand, and another ‘fist and thumb’ from the body to the elbow – to measure the extension of the lead hand. Both elbows must be pointed down to the ground as much as possible. The height of the hands is oriented anywhere between the diaphragm and the shoulder height.

If my description is accurate enough...
What is your understanding of Jong Sau if I may ask? I am quite interested in how different your response may be.

Regards,
-Savi.

[yuanfen]

Savi asks:For one, Sifu Chaudhuri and Sifu Lopez reference the Wooden Dummy for one application of their Jong Sau. That leaves me with the impression that Jong Sau is first trained at the Muk Yan Jong then in their lineage? Or no?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Briefly- NO. The dummy motions incorporate movements from the 3 hand forms. The jong motion is very much there in the first section of the mok yan jong form.
To do it right one must master some chum kiu.
And as Rob Lopez pointed out the biu jong sao is early in the chum kiu. Once learned jong sao can be apllied in many different contexts always coordinated with the other hand. Jong sao is a devastating can opener and can be used for striking, deflecting, breaking and even throwing- depending on "listening jing".
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Taltos sez:That's what I meant by "Clear the threatened space" and "Recover/regain control of the battlefield."
----------------------------------------------------------------
Levi- a comment on phraseology. FWIW- I am not fond of battlefield analogies. The southern arts and wing chun in particular was not developed in set battlefield dynamics as some of the Northern arts---in the use of the kwan do, stretching exercises for jumping off horses etc.
Wing chun is as close quarters as there is. The battlefield is when you are in contact with the other person- a wing chun person is looking for contact. Wing chun always prepares for contact- because that is a dangerous time. Pre contact is actually lessdangerous IMO.

[Savi]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Briefly- NO. The dummy motions incorporate movements from the 3 hand forms. The jong motion is very much there in the first section of the mok yan jong form.
To do it right one must master some chum kiu.
And as Rob Lopez pointed out the biu jong sao is early in the chum kiu. Once learned jong sao can be apllied in many different contexts always coordinated with the other hand. Jong sao is a devastating can opener and can be used for striking, deflecting, breaking and even throwing- depending on "listening jing".
Thank you for the explanation Sifu Chaudhuri.

Originally posted by yuanfen
FWIW- I am not fond of battlefield analogies. The southern arts and wing chun in particular was not developed in set battlefield dynamics as some of the Northern arts---in the use of the kwan do, stretching exercises for jumping off horses etc.
How does this affect/influence your POV on the militaristic histories presented by pre-red boat era Wing Chun? Also by your above statement, how does that explain the existence of the 9-12 ft Gwan in Wing Chun as a close range fighting system?

Originally posted by yuanfen
Wing chun is as close quarters as there is. The battlefield is when you are in contact with the other person- a wing chun person is looking for contact. Wing chun always prepares for contact- because that is a dangerous time. Pre contact is actually lessdangerous IMO.
I know this is just your opinion, but aren't the more grappling-oriented arts more "close quarter" than Wing Chun? I gues that's my opinion...

-Savi.

[taltos]

Originally posted by yuanfen
FWIW- I am not fond of battlefield analogies.

Fair enough. Words are just words, and can be restated to convey the same material in a more inclusive way. Perhaps "Clear the threatened space" and "Recover/regain control of the battlefield" could be rephrased as "meet and neutralize the incoming threat" and "recover/regain control of the situation."


The battlefield is when you are in contact with the other person

I agree with this, but I would also include in that definition (let's use "area of potential attack" instead of "battlefield" to avoid military terms) the space near the bridge that would also allow a vector of attack. I'm a cautious guy - I like to cover all my bases.


a wing chun person is looking for contact.

Agreed. Without contact - without a bridge - you severely hamstring yourself and your options.


Wing chun always prepares for contact

Agreed, for the same reasons stated above.


because that is a dangerous time.

Definately. Any time you are in conflict with another being is dangerous.


Pre contact is actually lessdangerous IMO.

I would agree that pre-contact when the opponent is in no position to launch an immidiate attack (including long range attacks) is less dangerous. I was only refering to that split second of time when the two fighters begin to "share" their immidiate space, and there is yet no bridge.

As an illustration, in training we do blindfolded chi sau. That's not really all that hard when you know what you're doing and you have a bridge to serve as your information finder. If I try that from a bridgeless position, I am FAR less confident that I will safely keep my opponent from hurting me. From immidiate precontact to building the bridge, you are more reliant on your eyes that in arguably any other stage in the game when a bridge is present. And eye-hand coordination leaves a lot to be desired in close quarter combat, at least IMHO.

It appears that we agree on most of the statements - there was just an ambiguity on what I meant by "pre-contact." I hope this was a little more specific.

-Levi

[reneritchie]

I think Joy makes a good point. China has both civil, militia, and military (and other) martial developments, and we WCK folks don't seem much with the regiments 8).

Interesting if disturbing: I was reading about the history of Sambo (Russian blend of Judo and ethnic former-Soviet Republic wrestling) and why they favor leg breaking to the more commonly seen stangulations and arm locks of arts like Judo. They figure if you break a guy's arm, he can still fight. If you choke him out, he can wake up and fight. If you break his leg, he's stuck there, and will occupy 2 or 3 of his friends to carry him away as well. So overall, it removes more opponent's from the field. Not sure the logic is all worked out there, but still, rather cold analytical attempt.

[Tom Kagan]

By the way, what's up with the requoting of yourself? That's kind of odd, don't you think? :confused:

I know you cherish your time with my Sifu, but you also should realize I spent time with him, too. Maybe my time was insignificant by your standards, I don't really know.

Regardless, the amount of time I spent pales in comparison to some of my SiHings (and even to a scarce few of my SiJat), but the time I spent still amounted to spending some time with him almost every day for the last several years of his life. The time that I cherish and refer to here was totally aside from the additional time I spent (and spend) training in and out of the class.

I was there the morning Moy Yat passed away. And I was the one who made and took countless numbers of phone calls to countless numbers of his friends, my SiHings, and also Moy Yat's own son and his two daughters. And I was the one who had to explain to your SiGung (my SiHing) what happened and argue with him why our Simo was in no position to speak to him in a telephone call.

I don't pretend to be any good, because I'm not. My skill is like a baby's compared to some of my SiHings. And, I don't pretend to be an authority on Moy Yat or any so called "Moy Yat Method" (whatever that could possibly mean). All I am is his student - nothing more, nothing less.

Moy Yat was always careful to give concise, simple, and proper answers to questions such as what you say he talked to you about. But, many students, for whatever reason, prefer to remain stagnant in their training (their thoughts and personal growth, really). They took many of his answers like the one you describe a little too literally and lost sight of the fact it was just one moment in time. What was a concise, simple, and proper answer to you in 1999 during a very brief visit to your school (actually, I believe it was a visit to see his new daughter-in-law's father) may not have held true under another circumstance.

If the descriptions you are posting are a correct recollection of that time and they are indeed, an accurate reflection of whatever Moy Yat may have discussed with you you privately, then, in order to truly understand it, you need to reexamine why he chose to tell you that. Believe me, he chose his words - even the choice ones - carefully. :D

There could be many reasons why. They include your character/manner, what level you were at at the time, your particular mood that day, etc., and even a teensy bit of randomness thrown in for good measure. Also, you need to reexamine the dynamic of the group with which you were working out at the time, your own Sifu's character/manner, your SiGung's Sifu's character/manner, and, yes, even your own SiTaiGung's (my Sifu's) character/manner. Everything I mentioned above, and a lot more, shaped his answers to you and to others. Also, whatever just happened to be on his mind at the time shaped his answers similarly.

I also met your Sifu personally and spent, as you like to put it, some "valuable private time with him" and, also, with your Simo. I also closely observed the way he interacted with his early students and his students with each other (and with me and one of my SiHings). I even shared with him some of my thoughts on the subject late one night at your SiGung's father's house.

I have also had the opportunity to do the same with your SiGung (my SiHing) on more than one occasion. Needless to say, I also did the same with your SiTaiGung.

While I have my own thoughts as to why my Sifu would tell you such a thing as you describe, my impression is not important in this case. To write it here would be tantamount to speculation on what is really "Richard Loewenhagen Method," (or possibly even "Savi Method.") Interestingly, that "method" has nothing to do with what or how my Sifu taught, regardless of any real or perceived similarities. Nor does any words written here imply anything about what impression I may have of why Moy Yat told you something. That is for you to decide alone. But, it is also for you to reexamine regularly as you progress.

Moy Yat had an uncanny ability to "read" a person or situation and tailor a response to what a person needed to experience, rather than what a person expected. Many times, the two points came close to coinciding. But when they didn't, the more impetuous of persons who had an opportunity to speak with him always seemed to misunderstand and would jump to quick conclusions all the time. He had little tolerance for people like this and would quickly tailor a response designed to drive that person away from him as fast as humanly possible. Interestingly, such answers he gave in these types of situations would almost without exception be designed to make himself look silly or stupid - someone who the person in question would rather not spend anymore time with. Moy Yat didn't seem to care how it made him look personally, but it did many times allow the other person to "save face." If he suceeded, he didn't really pay much attention to how it made him appear. He just wanted such a person to leave him alone.

When these situations came up, most got the idea Moy Yat was not worth their time, and left him alone. Others, perhaps those a tiny bit more perceptive, thought they were being insulted. Still others were oblivious, stuck around, and annoyed him to no end. :)


Since my previous post already explained what I see as JongSao and also included a small window into some of my observations of my sifu's method of teaching, I see no need to requote myself for that would be repetitively redundant. ;)

Methods are just that: methods. Some are good, some are not, some are better than others. And, in the case of an art involving people and emotion, rarely, if ever, is there a "best," even if someone "passing_through" this life insists there is one and only one. ;)

But the good methods in life all share some things in common: they always undergo change, and the result, when reached, is instantly recognizable as the same thing as the result another method, albeit only in retrospect.

Be ready for change. Admire the flowers. That's JongSao. How else can you end up amidst a "beautiful springtime" year after year? :cool:

[hunt1]

Rene on sambo. Reminds me of the first person to show me JJ. Before the Gracies made it popular. He wanted to learn WC because of 2 episodes in his street fighting past. (He liked to fight and learned his JJ from his father). In one fight he broke someone's arm and they did indeed keep coming. Another time he choked out a very tough person and you guessed it the guy came to and attacked him again. He decided after these two things he needed to be able to cause more damage to opponents.

[yuanfen]

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Originally posted by yuanfen
FWIW- I am not fond of battlefield analogies. The southern arts and wing chun in particular was not developed in set battlefield dynamics as some of the Northern arts---in the use of the kwan do, stretching exercises for jumping off horses etc.
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How does this affect/influence your POV on the militaristic histories presented by pre-red boat era Wing Chun?

(Which history and whose history. There are several quite different oral traditions. There are also some scholarly accounts of southern resistance against the Ming. The martial groups, enraged peasants and brigands fought more unorthodox wars rather than pitched battles. The Chings- unfortunately- eventually took over the south and there were lots of betrayals in the process including the usually unrelaible (in any society) the lierati. Wing chun at its best devlops individuals not armies))

Also by your above statement, how does that explain the existence of the 9-12 ft Gwan in Wing Chun as a close range fighting system?

(The kwan length varies. The kwan is most likelya heritage of the boat era for deveral southern arts including wing chun. Wing chun converted pole usage to its own mechanics, While wing chun excels at close ranges- it is not limited mechanically to a specific range. It is simply better than most other arts at close range.How close is close- on boats and between boats the kwan is an effective weapon. Plus- there are "short" motions with the kwan))

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yuanfen
Wing chun is as close quarters as there is. The battlefield is when you are in contact with the other person- a wing chun person is looking for contact. Wing chun always prepares for contact- because that is a dangerous time. Pre contact is actually lessdangerous IMO.
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I know this is just your opinion, but aren't the more grappling-oriented arts more "close quarter" than Wing Chun? I gues that's my opinion...

((My wing chun works fine at zero inch-vertically or horizontally-
though wing chun stays pretty vertical when learned well))Yuanfen

[reneritchie]

Hunt1 - Roy Harris had an interesting Q&A up at one time (still might) where he tried to inject some reality and perspective on real fighting. In one, he showed that while people think they could just gouge or groin attack a ground fighter, the ground fighter could do likewise and from superior control/position. He took his opponent down, pinned him, bit him on the nipple, when he screamed, he reached down and did his version of "monkey plucking peaches", and when he screamed from that, he chin-gouged him in the eye, then stood up and either curb stomped or ran depending on the situation. Then, in contrast, he explained how BJJ had its delusions as well. He took a purple belt down and went into his guard. As the pb began to look for subs, Roy bit him on the chest until he gave up. They tried again, this time the guy defending the bite, so Roy reached down and did the "monkey plucking peaches" again. When the guy defended that, he went back to the biting and when the guy tried to defend both, he placed his thumb on the guy's eye and showed what a gouge would do. His bottom line was that you had to know what was possible, and if it was your theory, you had to train it so it would become your reality (and that meant training bites, gouges, etc. as seriously as you would punches and shoots if you intended to really use them).

What does this have to do with Jong Sao? Er... ummmm... anyone highlevel will realize the connection right away. Yes, that's it... that's the ticket!

[yuanfen]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yuanfen
FWIW- I am not fond of battlefield analogies. The southern arts and wing chun in particular was not developed in set battlefield dynamics as some of the Northern arts---in the use of the kwan do, stretching exercises for jumping off horses etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How does this affect/influence your POV on the militaristic histories presented by pre-red boat era Wing Chun?

(Which history and whose history? There are several quite different oral traditions. There are also some scholarly accounts of southern resistance against the Ming. The martial groups, enraged peasants and brigands fought more unorthodox wars rather than pitched battles. The Chings- unfortunately- eventually took over the south and there were lots of betrayals in the process including the usually unrelaible (in any society) the literati. Wing chun at its best develops individuals not armies))

Also by your above statement, how does that explain the existence of the 9-12 ft Gwan in Wing Chun as a close range fighting system?

(The kwan length varies. The kwan is most likelya heritage of the boat era for deveral southern arts including wing chun. Wing chun converted pole usage to its own mechanics, While wing chun excels at close ranges- it is not limited mechanically to a specific range. It is simply better than most other arts at close range.How close is close- on boats and between boats the kwan is an effective weapon. Plus- there are "short" motions with the kwan))

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yuanfen
Wing chun is as close quarters as there is. The battlefield is when you are in contact with the other person- a wing chun person is looking for contact. Wing chun always prepares for contact- because that is a dangerous time. Pre contact is actually lessdangerous IMO.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I know this is just your opinion, but aren't the more grappling-oriented arts more "close quarter" than Wing Chun? I gues that's my opinion...

((My wing chun works fine at zero inch-vertically or horizontally-
though wing chun stays pretty vertical when learned well))Yuanfen

[Savi]

Pardon me Sisukgung Tom (grand-uncle right?),
I really do not wish to speak ill of anyone or discuss personal relations over a public forum such as this. I truly meant no intention on speaking about your relationship or personal experience with Grandmaster Moy Yat or his disciples. I did not know, nor did I intend to, put that into question if I did. I was merely referencing my experience and that’s all it was meant to be. I do appreciate the stories you have shared in your last post on this thread. I have met Sitaigung several times here in AZ and have been his chauffeur on those occasions.

I had much rather discuss this in private, IF you feel it is necessary at all. Please e-mail me instead: hfysavi@yahoo.com

As far as quoting something I had already written, it was intended to be so - in case what I quoted was overlooked. No more no less…

Lastly, with regards to Jong Sau, I did not understand your post on your knowledge of Jong Sau, which is why I asked you.

My apologies to you in advance, take care.
-Savi.

[KPM]

I think this thread is a good example of the fact that not all of our terminology within the WCK system is "standardized" through-out the different families. This can and does lead to some confusion and argument when trying to discuss certain things. Some may have learned that a "Jong Sau" is a specific technique, while others learned the term "Jong Sau" as a more non-specific concept. I think part of the problem may be that within the YMWCK method, there may not have been specific terms for everything and different teachers came up with their own terminology, or applied terms they heard differently. I know its a pipe dream at this point, but it really would be nice if the WCK system as a whole could agree on a standardized set of terms. :-)

Keith

[mjharper]

Resurrecting an old thread here,

I train Shaolin style with also some kick boxing / competition training. One of the hand forms we do is Jong Sau. Is this a condensed set of Wing Chun principles for close range fighting? It feels very similar to me - we also practice dan chi sau.

I've performed Sil Lim Tao and the similarities are obvious but I'm not so sure of it's (Jong Sau) origins etc. In Lau Gar are there more forms similar to this?

Thanks