Poison hands/fingers

[Grinding Hands]

A couple of silat/kuntao styles have these techniques probably from chinese masters who migrated to the southeast and integrated with the indigenous styles there. I see James Mcneil also teaches it or practices it. I believe its internal training so that you would be able to penetrate through skin skin with fingers. Have any of you guys heard of these techniques or practice it? It sounds intresting and would surely add another dimension in dim mak. Does anybody believe that its real?

I also put this post in the southern chinese styles check it out.:)

[Laughing Cow]

Never heard it mentioned in context to TJQ.

[HuangKaiVun]

Gichin Funakoshi, the grandmaster of Shoto-Kan karate, stated in his "My Life" book that this was impossible.

He speaks of how a person who claimed mastery in the fingerjabbing "nukite" method tried to pull that technique on him. Funakoshi ended up with some red skin, but no more.

Now Funakoshi does speak about his master Itosu, who was strong enough to crush a bamboo pole in his vice-like hands. But even Itosu was not capable of "nukite" in that extent - otherwise Funakoshi would've mentioned it.

I have yet to see this technique demonstrated on a live resisting opponent, so I defer to Funakoshi's judgment in this matter.

[Laughing Cow]

Never mind that even if you succesfully execute it you will have very slippery fingers as they are coated in blood now.

Not good if you still got opponents that need to be dispatched.

;)

[Grinding Hands]

I heard you strike soft tissues like the front of the neck. Is funakochi from shotokan? Shotokan is pretty external. I would assume there would be a certain internal ging used. I dont think I would ever hear any stories like this come from japanese styles maybe ninjustu, maybe. I would assume there would be snake training involved. Do any japanese styles have snake in them?

[jon]

"I believe its internal training so that you would be able to penetrate through skin skin with fingers. Have any of you guys heard of these techniques or practice it?"
* I know people who can stick there hand in between your rib cage, fix your heart and then pull there hand back all in a split second - you dont even feel it!

We practice a type of 'internal' training in my Tai Chi which allows us to use photon blasts of light which distroy our opponents blood cells after several years of prolonged exposure. Its very deadly and very misunderstood.

"It sounds intresting and would surely add another dimension in dim mak. Does anybody believe that its real?"

* Yes the poison fingers of death are a very scary and deadly art. Much more applicable than understanding of leverage or use of body mechanics to enhance force. I mean who wants to learn about stupid things like good balance and stable defensive structure when you can just stick your fingers though peoples stomachs and manipulate there spine instead.

Im going to ask my sifu tommorow, if i find out there is no poison fingers of death to be learned... Im leaving!

[Grinding Hands]

I dont really believe in it. But i know of several styles that practice it. No need for sarcasm. I didnt know a post can **** an aussie off. Listen whether it breaks through skin or not there is a poison fingers. So if you know nothing about it shut the f*** up and go down on somebody. Im not stating facts. There are myths that may or may not be true. I think this would of been a good topic for disscussion without arrogance.

[jon]

Grinding Hands

Honestly im just having fun, no need to take it personaly. Although i do realise i can be kind of abrasive.



Ive heard some old timers used to mix up various forms of poison with dit da. They would then apply the combination to the skin on either there finger tips or there palms. This meant that if a strike caused blood and broke the skin there was also a chance of poisoning occuring from the injury as well. Only a very small amount of poison was used a time so that over a period of years a gradual immunity could be built up for the poison of choice.
This practice was however very detrimental to the practioner and had a habbit of turning the hands and finger tips black.

Ive not heard of anyone doing this in a *long* time and i honestly doubt it ever worked that well in the first place.



Also finger tip striking is very commen and very usefull, trying to actualy use your fingers as a knife is pretty much impossible to my knowledge.

[bob10]

FWIW I heard from a friend who practiced out east with silat guys that this was down to people having a poisoned thorn or small blade concealed in the hand.

One scratch, the other guy is down, the blade is thrown away - to onlookers it looks like "poison touch".

[joedoe]

We have a poison hand form in our school, but it has nothing to do with breaking skin. It is more to do with causing serious damage to your opponent with the fingers or palm. It is supposed to be a more internal discipline.

And no, it isn't like a dim make death touch :)

I have also heard about people using the poison in the dit da and building up slowly over time. Is this what they call the cinnibar palm?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by bob10
FWIW I heard from a friend who practiced out east with silat guys that this was down to people having a poisoned thorn or small blade concealed in the hand.

One scratch, the other guy is down, the blade is thrown away - to onlookers it looks like "poison touch".

Makes a lot more sense to me this way.

[Grinding Hands]

Im sorry to then jon. Bob its called a kerambit. Its a little deceptive knife that goes around your thumb and the blade curves out your bottom knuckle. Indonesia is a little bigger for trapping and limb control the malaysians is the small one. check it out on the web. I think it would be great for wing chun since we use bottom knuckles.

[Grinding Hands]

Kerambit is a weapon. There is poison finger systems that claim to penetrate through skin . Ive seen somone stick his finger through thick tree bark and peel it out. Its a whipping motion. They wont show me how to do it. But I know that training your body to be a full whip will do alot of damage its also there form of iron body. Velocity increases and the end of the whip and you can break things that would take a iron palm guy years to break. I have whip training from my teacher but it was a filipino style. Its painful at first because the blood rushes so fast to the end of your limbs. I dont think its was good because you cause things to reverse flow. It has to be quick and very very relaxed or theres damage to you. Indonesia is one of the few countries that still have that mystery about them. Alot of the best chinese masters migrated there during the ching. They still believe in ESP spirit training, telekenesis. Im not saying that its all true but i would love to find out myself. Too bad indonesians hate americans right now.

[HuangKaiVun]

Gichin Funakoshi invented the "Shoto-Kan" style for exercise as opposed to combat.

However, his true background was in Okinawan karate. That form itself had a very huge influence from Chinese kung fu.

In his "Karate Jutsu" and "Karate Kyohan", Funakoshi quotes liberally from "The Bubishi".

The Bubishi itself is actually the Chinese "Shaolin Bronze Man Book" from Fukien White Crane and Monk Fist. That's as "internal" as a book as one will ever see in Chinese kung fu.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Some 25 +/- years ago i watched a mediocre 8mm movie of Mas Oyama striking a Pig (hanging from a tree by its hind legs) with a spear-hand and pull out its heart.. that's all i can remember (it was the late '60s you know)... I am skeptical of long-range chi projection.. but, confident of hands-on energy work, including Martial applications.. i do not dismiss long-range chi projection, its just that the numerous Masters i have seen "do it" with their students, refuse to let me sense it with the excuse that it could seriously hurt me... At a Jeff Bolt Tournament in the mid '90s Victor Kim gave me a profound demo of hands on Chi (a wall 10-12 feet away stopped my body from certain major embarassment.. Master Cui Lu Yi did an amazing healing on an excruciating torn groin muscle.. the next day i was hiking in the mountains of WA State..

Validation or invalidation may be as simple as the mind that conceives it..

Be well..

[HuangKaiVun]

But using the technique to defend yourself against live resisting opponents?

That's a whole different ball of wax. . .

just like supposedly being able to shatter heavy bricks with a light slap as certain masters claim they can do.

[les paul]

Poison hands

Indeed….

In my 20+ years, I never saw any one with the ability to penetrate someone’s skin with his or her hands. Demonstrating a technique on a watermelon is hardly evidence, considering that a watermelons skin doesn’t stretch, nor is there very resilient bone and cartilage underneath it. It’s laughable that someone would actually try to pawn this off to the public as some sort a evidence of martial skill. Humans move and strike back; watermelons don’t…not unless someone is throwing one at you. :)

As you can tell I’m contemptuous of this type of skill. I think it can easily lead one astray.

That said many hand techniques if done correctly don’t need to penetrate the body to be extremely effective. This we all know


On the subject of Qi projection from a distance.

As of now, (I’m only speaking for myself) I haven’t come across any Chinese or Japanese or Western master that possessed any more Qi than myself.

And……………. “NO I don’t project Qi from a distance.”

My latest investigation/ inquiry into so-called real Qi projection was when I started training here in Detroit under a highly ranked Japanese Aikido master who trained under Ueshiba himself, he claimed to possess KI/Qi projection powers. One night he started waving his hands around like “Cloud hands” and his senior students started falling like trees in a typhoon. When it came to my turn I just stood there (I didn’t feel a thing, not even a breeze) the look on his senior students said it all. That was the last time I worked out there. I’m not knocking Aikido or the man’s school (he had some top notch students and he was highly skilled himself)

However, he was fooling himself and his students knew it.



This isn’t to say I don’t recognize the existence of Qi….. To my /knowledge, Qi get manipulated internally or transferred externally through actual contact or sub-contact. …(palms in close proximity to another’s body etc…)

Either I’m dense as a rock physically or hypnotically dense, I haven’t felt a thing when someone attempts some sort of projection technique on me. Never have.

I’ll call anyone on the carpet to demonstrate it to me…..

My Old Sifu always laughed when this subject was brought up. He was skeptical and I guess his view on Qi projection rubbed of on me.

One day I said “Sifu, but what about the old masters? Recorded history states they had great powers, didn’t they posses great martial abilities with Qi, couldn’t they project Qi to defeat an opponent?”

He replied, “If they did possesses great Qi powers, then what were they doing with all those weapons?”

“Good point!” I answered

[dezhen2001]

if all the masters could fly then why did houses have stairs? :D

dawood

[joedoe]

I once heard a story about an old monk who could prevent people from coming within 15 feet of him if he wanted to. He was still killed by the bullets of the Japanese soldiers :(

[jon]

Originally posted by joedoe
I once heard a story about an old monk who could prevent people from coming within 15 feet of him if he wanted to. He was still killed by the bullets of the Japanese soldiers :(

* I guess sadly even terrible BO is no defence against gunfire :(

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"Several students of Willy wetzel another silat master claims of having poison fingers. These are just some of the people that i heard train in it."

my sifu was a student of wetzel. not once have i heard him mention poison hands or anything of the sort.

[Grinding Hands]

Gunned. Do you know of anyone who practices willy wetzel's hand in chicago? Thanks.

Im currently doing research on Guru Wetzel and Guru Willem reeders.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

sorry to say that i don't man. i only know of two teachers around here as this is the area willy was in. my teacher and some other guy i have heard mixed opinions on. i live in wheeling wv, which is about 45 mins outside pittsburgh. to my knowlege willy operated out of pa which is why there'd be a couple teachers in my area.

looking around on the web a while back i came accross a couple other schools, but sadly most of them looked pretty bad. there were 2 i think that looked pretty good, but they were in ca if i remember right.

i wish you a lot of luck in finding anyone knowing willys pukulan as i don't think he taught a whole lot of people in the states.

[dubj]

Check out Master Art Sikes because he trained with both of these men and was Grandmaster Reeders top student. What kind of info are you researching? I don't usually ask my teacher about the history too much because we are usually busy, but I am sure he would answer some questions. I would really like to find out more facts about Liu Seong as that info seems hard to come by on the net.

Peace and blessings to all

[dubj]

By the way, here is Grandmaster Sikes' website
http://www.nasda.net/index.html

[Grinding Hands]

I believe Master liu Seong trained with the uncles of the De Thouars brothers. Do you think he helped influenced the Serak style? He sounds like he had super human powers or atleast a very very high skill. What do you know about him. And thanks for showing up I thought i was the only one who heard of this. It was almost to the point that thought i made it up. Do you guys know of Guy Savelli?

Peace

[dubj]

Check this site out. This interview seems to be where most of peoples info on Master Reeders comes from. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/1043/index.html

Let me first say that I don't know any "facts" because I was not there. I have read that Liu Seong had trained one of the De Vries in exchange for them training Master Reeders in the Serak system. I would have no way of knowing if he influenced the Serak system itself, but I doubt it. Like I said, Master Sikes is the one person I know of that spent a great deal of time with Master Reeders, and he would know any details you are looking for. As far as the history of the systems passed down to us, I still have a great deal to learn. Learning and knowing the systems themselves is a lifetime of work ahead of me, if I am so lucky. Yes I know of Guy Savelli, and I have heard mixed things about him. He is one of the oldschool guys though and I imagine he is a very good martial artist. If what he does is different than others, that is common in these arts as individuals are taught individually. My only gripe with him is the whole correspondance course thing, but it may work for some people. Anything else, I would have to fist experience before I pass judgement.

Peace and blessings to all

[Fu-Pow]

I doubt you could do it. The skin, despite being very thin is also very strong and elastic. Most likely "demonstrations" of this skill are hocus pocus.

[Shaolin-Do]

Senior master Mullins and Senior Master Leonard have been known to do 1 finger bored breaks at tourneys... one with the pointer and the other with the thumb... But as posted before, the skin is very elastic... it wont snap like wood... But for pressure points to be effective, theres absolutely no need to break skin. so whats the point of that anyways? :)

[Shaolin-Do]

Im sorry.. its been a very long day. Bored whislt half asleep means board. :)