UFC2 Unseen fights : the review...

[bougeac]

wow, didnt realise this thread would go off at such a tangent!!!

but thats what discussions are about right??

anyways, what im going to do is contact my friend who did the preliminary tape for me and get his permission to stick a link to his site....

in the mean time, i will review each of the fights as i remember seeing them...

scott morris (ninjitsu) vs shaun dougherty (tkd)

the two fighters quickly closed on each other, dougherty fired off a couple of innefectual kicks whilst morris quickly swallowed up kicking range, grabbed the tkd stylist by the head (front headlock ish) and performed a suplex style motion, they both crashed to the ground, morris held on to the choke and the tkd guy tapped out...

ray wizard (kenpo) vs patrick smith (kickboxing)

smith rushes the kenpo guy who attempts a kick, a brief vertical grapple follows before smith gets wizard in a guillotene choke and cranks it for dear life!!!, wizard passes out : winner : smith

david levicki (wing chun) vs johnny rhodes (karate)

as a wing chun stylist myself, this was the fight i was keenest to see, interestingly, im pretty sure that i saw master ron heimburger coaching levicki from the sidelines during the fight (maybe someone can confirm this).

levicki is a giant of a man, 6 ft 5 and around 275 lbs, rhodes is around 6ft and about 220...

the fight starts off with levicki advancing in a wing chun guard position (amazing !!, never seen this before in nhb) and uses biu mah to advance towards rhodes, as soon as levicki is in rhode's kicking range, rhodes fires off a spinning back kick which levicki stops with bong gyeuk (yes REAL wing chun techniques here),immediately after deflecting the kick levicki attacks with a front kick followed by a chain punching attack (some of which lands) and rhodes back pedals like crazy trying to avoid the wing chun attack, levicki then litterally runs after rhodes and they tie up against the fence and both crash to the ground...

from this point on, levicki is on his back with rhodes in his guard..

for the next 10-12 minutes the fight remains in this position, rhodes is probably more agressive in my opinion ,constantly trying to score with punches and headbutts, levicki makes good use of his sensitivity and manages to deflect most of these attacks, but eventually some of the blows do get through one of which opens up a large cut over levickis left eye, a couple more strikes cause the cut to release a torrent of blood and levicki taps out...

thadeus luster (kung fu san soo) vs frank hamaker (sambo)

7th degree blackbelt luster anounces before his fight that "i believe my current discipline , kung fu san soo , is the most potent fighting system on the planet..."

the fighters quickly tie up in the middle of the octagon in a vertical grapple before LUSTER initiates a takedown, hamaker quickly reverses, lands a barrage of punches and then submits luster with a figure four elbow lock, so much for the potent system...

albert sierra leon (pentjak silat) vs remco pardoel (jiu jitsu)

i have watched literraly hundreds of no holds barred fights and this is the only fight i have seen a clean ,clear hand trap followed by a punch...

which is delivered by the pentjak silat fighter on the jiu jitsu player before a vertical grapple ensues...

pardoel manages to sweep the pentjak silat fighter to the ground where they grapple for a short time before leon taps out due to a choking technique..

jason de lucia (5 animal kung fu) vs scott baker (wing chun)

on paper, this looked like possibly the most fascinating fight of them all, 2 predominantly vertical based traditional kung fu systems against each other, but....

basically the ENTIRE fight takes place on the ground strait out of the stables baker advances towards delucia (baker was even wearing a judo gi!) before they quickly clinch and go to the ground what follows is what looks like a judo match, there is NO kung fu strategy in evidence from either fighter (baker shows no wing chun whatsoever), both fighters exchange being in the guard position, trying locks and heel hooks on each other before finally de lucia gets baker in a triangle choke which he manages to then get on top of baker with and causes the wing chun fighter to tap out due to strikes from de lucia.

i have no doubt that baker did do wing chun, but it looked like he threw his skills away and just tried to out grapple his oponent instead....

so there you have it, the unseen fights, and guess what the common denominator is in all of them, yep GRAPPLING...

[Merryprankster]

so there you have it, the unseen fights, and guess what the common denominator is in all of them, yep GRAPPLING...

SHOCKING!! :D

[bougeac]

hi mp, knew youd be interested in this!!!

btw ive wanted to ask you a bit of advice (nothing to do with watching these fights btw!!).

i have limited grappling experience, and because the majority of my free time is spent on wing chun/family/working i dont have a great deal of time to spend on grappling...

mind you, i do enjoy a good roll and the fitness benefits are tremendous, recently ive thought about trying to fit in 2-3 hours on a sunday morning maybe , just to practice ground fighting
a friend of mine knows a guy who teaches judo who is supposed to be a nice person, im very tempted to try and get private tuition from this guy or there is a jiu-jitsu academy over here where i could probably get some tuition although not sure of the quality of tuition...

given my time constraints etc what would you advice, judo or jiu-jitsu for groundwork???

chris

[t_niehoff]

bougeac,

I tried to reply to you offlist but my email was returned. Send me a good address. Thanks.

Terence

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by bougeac
so there you have it, the unseen fights, and guess what the common denominator is in all of them, yep GRAPPLING...

That's because the event's originator, Rorion Gracie, set it up to favor grappling.

[bougeac]

no! no! no! no! no! no! no!

its got NOTHING to do with the gracies, and its got NOTHING to do with the fact that the kung fu stylists were "patsies" or unskilled, if the tourney was solely geared for grapplers, how come levicki (wing chun) vs jonny rhodes (karate),ray wizard (kenpo) vs pat smith (kickboxing),jason delucia(5 animals) vs scott baker(wing chun) didnt stay on their feet and settle the fight VERTICALLY , all of these stylists were VERTICAl fighters and they ALL ended up on the deck!!

the simple reason is this : if you dont settle a fight quickly, you will be in vertical grappling in a split second, vertical grappling will quickly translate to ground grappling, irrespective of what "style" you study...

i love wing chun very much, but i do appreciate the necessity for studying grappling, besides, its fun!!

i will post my friends email address in order for people to be able to purchase the prelims, tomorrow...

[Merryprankster]

bougeac,

It depends. :D

If you are confident that your WC training will KEEP you on your feet, then train BJJ. It's a groud oriented art--most of your training will take place on the mat.

If you are concerned that against a concerted effort, your WC will not keep you on your feet, train Judo--you'll get enough groundwork to deal with most people (probably), and you'll learn how to stay on your feet very well.

I would personally take Judo. It allows you to dictate the fighting range better--and he who dictates range, wins.

[t_niehoff]

bougeac wrote:

the simple reason is this : if you dont settle a fight quickly, you will be in vertical grappling in a split second, vertical grappling will quickly translate to ground grappling, irrespective of what "style" you study... B

I don't agree. I think the real issue is that at that time most stand-up fighters hadn't spent much time on the skill of "standing up" and remaining standing -- they took it for granted (as they only fought other stand-up fighters that also took it for granted). Then when they met fighters that challenged them to remain standing, and had trained to take standing folks down, these "stand up" guys were at a loss. Today, that's no longer the situation (at least for some ;) ). However, I do agree with you about ending the fight quickly as the longer it goes on, the more opportunities the opponent has (for whatever his strategy). FWIW, one of the drills we do is 5 second sparring (each round is 5 seconds, with a variable delay between rounds) -- it's a good way to learn not to get caught in "the sparring trap." TN

Terence

[UltimateFighter]

These are not "unseen fights". They are very very old UFC fights that have been shown on TV in UFC shows to show how far the sport has come since these basic fights occurred.

The David Levicki fight was on the UFC 2 tape. Levicki showed proper Wing Chun stances and fought as would be exopected for someone who had never trained outside WC. He used Wing Chun as he had trained it (not full contact), and he had no grappling ability.

The deficiencies of WC as it is trained for MMA have been known for years. The only way WC/WT will ever be successful in mma is if the fighter is adequately cross trained and has sparred full contact.

[wiz cool c]

how can one get a copy of this tape? I have been trying to get these fights for a long time now.

[bougeac]

"ultimate fighter", you must be blind mate, i have the official us ufc 2 and the uk version and they DONT have ANY of the prelimary
fights bar gracie vs ichihara...

they show a TINY clip of levicki vs rhodes but the entire fight ,
i dont think so...

[wiz cool c]

How do you get those videos?