Lifting weighs

[Lews]

Ok I know that everyone has had this debate before but I have some questions for you all:

1.Do you have to train harder for speed to compensate for lifting heavy weights?

2.If you lift and don't practice for a while do you see yourself becoming slower

3.If there is anyone out there who lifts weights I would like to know how he incorporates that to his workout

thanks in advance brothers and please stay on topic....

[AndrewS]

1). No, weights have improved my speed.

2). Dunno, I have never stopped practicing long enough to be able to observe this. I usually do footwork or turns between sets when I'm lifting for serious strength and need 5-6 min rest intervals. Why wouldn't you be able to practice?

3). I cycle my lifting schedule, make sure to get rest, and these days keep all my reps low <6, using a variety of schemes to achieve anatomic adaptation, hypertrophy, and strength, based on a loose interpretation of periodization literature. I use free weights wherever possible, primarily squat and deadlift, with some old-school strongman lifts for my upperbody.

I also use kettlebells for fun and cardio.

Basically- keep it simple. Lift free weights. If you're not squatting or deadlifting, stop wasting your time in the gym. Isolation is useful only for looks and rehabbing.

Later,

Andrew

P.S. One of my seniors *only* oly lifts and trains for competetive oly lifting for his weight work. It's been superb for him.

[AndrewS]

Oh yeah,

when possible, I try to separate my weight work from my martial practice by 6 hrs and avoid hard partner work and heavy lifting on the same day, particularily one after the other.

Squatting at 85% RM1 then going to do full-contact or vica versa is f*ck'n stupid. And yes, I've learned that the hard way.

Andrew

[[Censored]]

Lifting weights? Isn't the pole heavy enough for you? ;)

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Lews
Ok I know that everyone has had this debate before but I have some questions for you all:

1.Do you have to train harder for speed to compensate for lifting heavy weights?

2.If you lift and don't practice for a while do you see yourself becoming slower

3.If there is anyone out there who lifts weights I would like to know how he incorporates that to his workout

thanks in advance brothers and please stay on topic....

1. No. See 3.

2. No.

3. Resistance training days: Full-body warmup - full-body stretches - weights - full-body cooldown (3-stage) - full-body stretches (incorporate WC practice into warmups and cooldowns). Alternate days, 30-40 mins cardio, also incorporating WC practice.

Staying on topic - why worry about this? Just take what you need.

[IRONMONK]

hi,

i know most athletes use weight training and some world class martial artist who have phenomenal speed.
i have noticed that guys that do weight lifting tend to be very tense but then i have seen guys who weight train and are very fast and relaxed in chi sao. So my biggest fear of weight training is that i become slower and tense.
maybe those guys who are slower weight train incorrectly?so how do u weight train to get positive results(increased speed etc)?
Wing chun is an art that doesnt fight force against force-so what benefits does weight training give to the wing chun practioner?

[wingchunalex]

I lift weights. My sifu does too. he attributes being in good health at 50 to lifting. Lifting hasn't hurt my speed. its just you gotta keep doing things with explosive (snapy) force. i think its just a matter of being able to relax the muscles you are not using.

i don't think getting huge is a good thing, but sculpting your body is fine. being one of those huge body builders could slow you down. but having a good chizled body is not going to hurt your wing chun.

having nice tennis ball bicepts is fine i think, shouldn't slow you down. but having the mass of the guys in the world's strongest man contests probably would.

my weight training and wing chun practice is separate. I just lift 3 times a week in the morning. I train my wing chun at other times.

I separtate conditioning and wing chun practice.

I know bruce lee said something about doing finess movements when you are not tired so you're technique is good.

Oh, yeah, that reminds me. bruce lee lifted weights and he was really fast.

I hope that helped.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Lifting weights? Isn't the pole heavy enough for you? ;) You speak truth.

[Stevo]

So my biggest fear of weight training is that i become slower and tense.

It won't make you slow and tense if you warmup and cooldown and stretch. (This will extend each lifting session by another 40 mins or so).

Re. weight training, I'm talking more about strengthening and toning the muscles, rather than piling on bulk for the sake of it (which is actually hard to do for most people, anyway - which is why weightlifting supplements are a multi-billion dollar industry, and why so many bodybuilders take anabolic steroids and growth hormones).

maybe those guys who are slower weight train incorrectly?so how do u weight train to get positive results(increased speed etc)?

warmup(calisthenics)-->stretches-->lift-->cooldown(calisthenics+extra cardio)-->stretches.

Also, some 'explosive' or plyometric-type lifting - push out the weight fast and lower it slowly. Plus, higher reps with lower weights at times.

Stretching should work at least the muscles being used in the lifts that session, but unless I'm short of time, I aim to do full-body stretches each session.

Wing chun is an art that doesnt fight force against force-so what benefits does weight training give to the wing chun practioner?

It's good for your health and wellbeing (and stamina, if done properly) and makes it easier to stay slim - ie some extra muscle cranks up your metabolism and burns fat.

I personally find it relaxes me a lot, as any vigorous exercise does.

It strengthens your muscles and tendons and ligaments, making injury in emergency situations less likely.

Strength in reserve is a good thing to have - you never know when you may need it. Wing Chun, or our use of it, isn't infallible.

Also, if you look fit and strong, you may not be so likely to have to use Wing Chun in the first place, ie you may be less susceptible to being targeted by muggers, who will often pick what they consider to be easy targets (the 'victim syndrome').

[Block]

The key thing to remember is that you don't substitute strength for your Wing Chun technique and structure.

Speed and power in Wing Chun comes from relaxation and structure. I see many new students who are built like body builders try to use their strength in their techniques because that’s what they have learnt to rely on.

The hardest thing to do is to change this inner strategy to stop using muscular strength and to use relaxed force and technique.

Back to your issues ;)

1.Do you have to train harder for speed to compensate for lifting heavy weights?

No. Infact heavy resistance training will increase your speed. At a muscular level there are 2 types of muscle fibres, fast twitch and slow twitch. Not to get too technical but fast twitch muscle fibres are responsible for speed and power. The way to train them is not to do lots of reps at low weights (as most people believe) but fewer reps at high weights. If you want some references I can get them for to you.

2.If you lift and don't practice for a while do you see yourself becoming slower

If you don't train you are likely to slow down somewhat anyway. But as long as you don't make the fundamental mistake of relying on strength but stick to your Wing Chun principles you'll be fine.

3.If there is anyone out there who lifts weights I would like to know how he incorporates that to his workout.

If you really want to get the most out of weight training I suggest you start with Bill Phillips book Body for Life. It's a great program that I and many of my fellow students follow and it really works great.

Good luck with it. If you want some more info, I'm happy to give you some links.

[mun hung]

Gave up bodybuiding for kung fu. I actually feel much better and...lighter.

Might go back to the gym for light workouts in the future, but that's strictly for the chicks! ;)

Polework? Nothing like it. Miss it. Have to wait for my wrist to heal up from a fracture. :(

[foolinthedeck]

you may think that you can lift weights and not be too tense, but your own feeling of tesnion is relative. most of us think we are relaxed. it takes another person to do chi sau with you to tell you that no you're not relaxed.

and the pole is heavy enough - ouch!

[Stevo]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
you may think that you can lift weights and not be too tense, but your own feeling of tesnion is relative. most of us think we are relaxed. it takes another person to do chi sau with you to tell you that no you're not relaxed.

and the pole is heavy enough - ouch!

Can you explain why lifting weights is meant to make you tense? Are you built like a stick insect? If not, chances are that you have actually used your muscles at some stage during your life, causing them to undergo some growth. Has that made you tense?

[foolinthedeck]

theres some difference between
a) using muscles
and
b) lifting weights specifically to train muscles.

like i said before, you may not feel as if they make you tenser but they will to the other guy.
having said that there are ways and means. the book "brawn" and "beyond Brawn" are worth a look.
and if you must lift i'd recommend you lift as slowly as possible like 5 counts up 5 counts down, not this quick pump pump thing.

i'm no stick insect, my body doesnt turn heads, but i can easily deal with muscle heads in wing chun situs, and can FEEL when people do weights. the only people i know who really have sensitivity and feel are my sifu, my best mate in wing chun, and most of my female wc sisters

[Atleastimnotyou]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
you may think that you can lift weights and not be too tense, but your own feeling of tesnion is relative. most of us think we are relaxed. it takes another person to do chi sau with you to tell you that no you're not relaxed.




i agree with this 100%.

[gnugear]

I've completely given up on weights, situps, pushups, pullups, etc. I bulk up way too easily and it all goes right to my shoulders. Not a good thing (for me).

[AndrewS]

Amazing.

Someone asks for advice on how to lift and ever person who's convinced weights are the antichrist feels the need to chime in.

Perhaps the peanut gallery can start their own thread on how much weights s*ck and leave those of us who lift alone to have a discussion on the matter.

Read the first post in this thread and realize IF YOU DON'T LIFT YOUR OPINION WASN'T ASKED FOR.

Later,

Andrew

[1renox]

Answer to 1. No 2. No-not speed, but there are other issues. Wing Chun often and there will be no issues.

3. I've lifted nearly all my life and lifted before starting WC and prefer lifting and conditioning to WC.

I lift for strength, power and endurance because I like it. The thing about lifting heavy is that a person can become very strong, but it's also very devastating to the body.
I don't think my program adds much to my WC, but I think it does add to my ability win a fight if I did need to resort to strength. I can Chi Sao longer than anybody I know because of my shoulders. I'm not very good mind you, but I can outlast them. So maybe lifting heavy has helped.

If you are perhaps interested in incorporating a weight program for WC--IMHO, a high rep, 60% 1MR program with goals of high endurance and secondarily of strength, targeting the bigger muscles in legs, arms, abs and back would be best. Stretch before and after. Do full body2X week. Consistency and frequency are the keys to progress. Each person reacts differently to weights; each person has different goals. It also takes some months of experimentation and research to discover an effective program that can be incoorporated into a person's schedule.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
theres some difference between
a) using muscles
and
b) lifting weights specifically to train muscles.

like i said before, you may not feel as if they make you tenser but they will to the other guy.
having said that there are ways and means. the book "brawn" and "beyond Brawn" are worth a look.
and if you must lift i'd recommend you lift as slowly as possible like 5 counts up 5 counts down, not this quick pump pump thing.

i'm no stick insect, my body doesnt turn heads, but i can easily deal with muscle heads in wing chun situs, and can FEEL when people do weights. the only people i know who really have sensitivity and feel are my sifu, my best mate in wing chun, and most of my female wc sisters

You Fool,

'Lifting weights' is about as generic a term as 'martial arts'. There are so many different ways to approach lifting, with many different types of results. To say that all lifters are tense only makes me realise how wise you have been in the choice of your name.

You say you don't lift, and yet you are giving people advice on how to lift!

You conclude by naming the few people you know who have good sensitivity. Are all the other people who do Wing Chun that you know weight lifters?

[foolinthedeck]

lol
yes
well put

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Block
Speed and power in Wing Chun comes from relaxation and structure. I see many new students who are built like body builders try to use their strength in their techniques because that’s what they have learnt to rely on. This is true. However new students, especially males of the species, tend to try and muscle their techniques. It is the "natural" response of many, body builder or not. This is one reason why we train, in order to overwrite the programming of previous life experiences.

As Foolinthedeck says, the tension is felt by your chisao partner, and you may not be aware of it yourself. Tension is a problem for all WingChunners, lifters and non-lifters alike. I lift weights. It provides core body strength and if done with stretching can be beneficial. I am tense, but I believe that I am steadily improving. It is more of a mental rather than physical issue, IMO.

Your mileage may vary,

Matrix

[AndrewS]

Matrix,

'mental and physical'- that's an irrelevant, in fact near impossible, distinction.

To me, whether I'm doing Wing Chun or lifting, the primary determinant of my performance and the primary system I train is neurologic.

Relaxation- whatever mental image or trick you use that gets your arms 'empty' while maintaining the appropriate ability to connect. Conning your body into no longer twitching in response to shocks. 'Feeling' holes, missing bits of balance and exploiting them by replacing and removing bits of your balance/force- all profoundly neural.

Lifting- look at power lifters or oly lifters. Compare them pound for pound with body builders. Who is stronger? The strength athletes, by far. The difference- many things, but in large part neurology. A lifter will hit a certain weight and their lifts will keep going up for years at the same weight (slowly, granted)- the reason- it ain't muscle, it's the wiring and program. Past that, wanna improve your lifts- use the right imagery to drive them, change your mindset.

All this stuff is pretty clear demonstration of the superficial nature of the mind/body distinction. That distinction, in fact, may be the only portion of this which is truely 'mental' (of course on can argue that no thought exists without physical corrolates in the brain. . .).

Later,

Andrew

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
'mental and physical'- that's an irrelevant, in fact near impossible, distinction. You're kidding me, right?


All this stuff is pretty clear demonstration of the superficial nature of the mind/body distinction. Not only is it not clear, it's not a perspective that I share. Yes, you train your nervous system, but it is the conduit through which mental determination translates into physical results.

Power lifters are stronger than body builders because of the focus of their training and the methodology used to achieve their goals. For body builders, strength is a bi-product of trying to look asthetically pleasing (this is often subjective as well). Power lifters train for strength, and their routines are structured to deliver that result.

You cannot extract your neurological system from the equation any more than you can remove the mind or the body. All creation comes from the mind (consciously or sub-consciously), you need to train your nervous system to respond accordingly. To trivialize the body-mind connection is a serious error in judgement, IMO.

Matrix

[AndrewS]

Matrix,

the mind-body dualism is one imposed only by consciousness and which occurs only in the pages of philosophy.

If you choose to assume that we are physical beings living in a physical universe without some ineffable animating force (i.e. soul, chi, whatever), that the construction of a body, cell for cell would result in life and consciousness in some form, then the thing you consider 'mind' is merely an emergent property of a physical body observing itself.

The relevance of this- whether you are discussing strength or softness, mind and body are part of the same package. Good health and exercise will improve your mood (medline search 'depression' and 'exercise'). There is reasonable evidence to support the effect of mental states on immune response (medline search 'psychoneuroimmunology'). Cut open someone's chest and they tend to be depressed afterwards (I believe statistically out of proportion to cutting open their abdomen, unclear if this is 2ndry to common meds post open-heart or partial sympathetic denervation of the heart during surgery).

The difference between putting force in the ground and falling over- a visualization.

Teaching- sometimes all it takes is one gedanken-trick to vastly improve a student's progress. Recue them to that 'trick' and they overcome their block- to me this is part of teaching.

In performance the effects of visualization (with similar training times), a purely mental exercise, on physical performance are well documented.

Competetive power lifters use a number of psychological tricks in training and on meet day. In training some are 'instinctive' trainers, cycling in part based on body-feel. Others are scientists, recording and plotting out rep schemes, cycles, and accessory muscle work. All this is profoundly 'mental'.

You may chose to draw a line between mind and body.

If you presume a physical world, that is ultimately an arbitrary distinction.


This is, essentially, a dispute of philosophy. Nonetheless, I hold that the distinction between mind and body limits one's ability to use the entire package to best effect.

Later,

Andrew

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
If you choose to assume that we are physical beings living in a physical universe without some ineffable animating force (i.e. soul, chi, whatever), that the construction of a body, cell for cell would result in life and consciousness in some form, then the thing you consider 'mind' is merely an emergent property of a physical body observing itself. Andrew, You made no mention of soul, chi or spirit in your previous post, but rather "seemed" to focus on the central nervous system, which as far as I can tell is also a physical mechanism.

Quite frankly, I have no problem with what you've just said. Now you're adding a different dimension which was not clear to me in your previous post. I thought you were taking this discussion in a totally different direction. My mistake.

Matrix.

[AndrewS]

Hey Matrix,

fair enough. This whole subject wanders into new-agey b.s. which tends to annoy me, but when you kick back and look at the organism it becomes more clear what's going on. From that perspective, it starts to make more sense how to manipulate the organism- which is what we're really talking about with any form of training.

Andrew

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Lews
Ok I know that everyone has had this debate before but I have some questions for you all:

1.Do you have to train harder for speed to compensate for lifting heavy weights?

2.If you lift and don't practice for a while do you see yourself becoming slower

3.If there is anyone out there who lifts weights I would like to know how he incorporates that to his workout

thanks in advance brothers and please stay on topic....

1. No

2. Maybe, but that will be because you haven't been training, not because you are lifting weights.

3. I do. I'm in the gym every day and stick mainly with compound exercises, however I do do some isolation exercises. I do plenty of cardio also.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by IRONMONK
hi,

i know most athletes use weight training and some world class martial artist who have phenomenal speed.
i have noticed that guys that do weight lifting tend to be very tense but then i have seen guys who weight train and are very fast and relaxed in chi sao. So my biggest fear of weight training is that i become slower and tense.
maybe those guys who are slower weight train incorrectly?so how do u weight train to get positive results(increased speed etc

proper strength training won't decrease speed. that's an old gym myth. Check out "power to the people" by pavel tsatsouline - lots of good strength training info there.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
theres some difference between
a) using muscles
and
b) lifting weights specifically to train muscles.



there's part of the flaw. proper strength training targets the nervous system, not the muscles - you are training your nervous system to be able to contract harder than normal at will in order to produce work. you can strength train and not gain mass.

[AndrewS]

Sevenstar,

comrade, good to see another member of the Party on board here.

;-)

(presently putting zheng gu shui on hands from 140 snatches in 12 mins with 1 1/2 pood and heading of to do full range squats and abs density-style)

Later,

Andrew

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AndrewS
This whole subject wanders into new-agey b.s. which tends to annoy me, but when you kick back and look at the organism it becomes more clear what's going on. Yep, that can happen. My philosophy in that case is, "eat the chicken, spit out the bones".

Matrix

[SevenStar]

Indeed, comrade. Maybe we can do some good here by making the Party stronger :)