chain punches

[Lews]

I have tried many different approaches in chain punching I want to know what you (all)think is the best....


chain punch for 2 min

chain punch for reps/sets

.....and has anyone's hand speed went up as a result of this (outside of chain punching)

[taltos]

My take would be chain punch while being mindful of perfect form and relaxation. If you want just speed, get a speed bag. If you want just power, get a heavy punching bag. If you want to train the WC Punch (which includes the previous things, and a heck of a lot more), then throw it in accordance with ever principle you have been taught. Go as fast/energetic/long as you can while maintaining perfect form. When your structure starts to slip, or you start to tense up and "push," the excercise has reached it maximum benefit, and you're done.

-Levi

[Savi]

Levi, great advice on how to go about training and what to look for!

One quick note I'd like to mention about hand speed. If you want to develop a fast punch, you really do not develop faster hands. You develop faster elbows. The elbow travels much slower than your hands. Focus on how fast you can raise the elbow in each of your punches and you should see the speed of your fist increase. You should also begin to feel your reaction time being affected by this. This builds upon being mindful of where your elbows are and what they are doing.

Hope it helps!

Take care,
-Savi.

[Lews]

hey thanks for the advice guys whoever sent the one about the elbow could you go a little more in depth, especially about reaction

[Savi]

I'm alittle slow this morning, but I'll do my best...

There are 2 types of speed: movement speed and reaction speed. Movement speed constitutes about 1/8th of the speed factor. Reaction speed is the other 7/8ths. Which one should be addressed and which one needs work? Depends on the individual right?

I believe it is said that the elbow travels about 8 times slower than the hands. Speed up the slower parts and you speed up the other parts by default.

1) Try your punches and only focus on your hands. Throw several punches as fast you can. Again, only focus on your hands.

2) Then throw your punches again, but THIS TIME focus on your elbows. Focus on how fast your elbow raises from its sunken position. You should feel more control, more snap, and more power in your movement – that feeling is the connection between the body and mind.

Do you recognize any difference between when you focused on the hands versus elbows? The faster your parts can respond to each other (reaction time), the more it will influence movement speed. This is part of what Levi referred to as being ‘mindful of your parts’.

Reaction speed is probably the most important factor you have WRT Speed. It is directly related to your martial self-awareness. How?

In Wing Chun it is commonly known that we do not chase a person’s hands. That would distract us from the opponent and by doing so our self-awareness goes further and further away from our center. Thus, that disconnection begins to slow us down (reaction time decreases). Stay focused on your elbows and how they move rather than your own hands. This should allow you to be more mindful or aware of how the body works with the punch, and how it can affect it.

WC chain punching is similar; but not exact, to the old-fashioned boxer who keeps the elbows down and close to the body. It is much more damaging than with the elbows out.

The less you are aware of the slower parts of your body, the more that can be a disadvantage to you and your attributes. The more you are aware of your parts and their function in WC, the more you will benefit from it.

Right now that’s about as best I can tell you. You have to experience it and experiment with it. Maybe later my brain will be more functional. I guess my reaction time is slow this morning!

PS: Reaction speed is best trained with Chi Sau... but if you do not have a partner to train with, focus on your elbows to build up movement speed. If you want to focus on reaction speed without a partner, focus on the connection between your center and the elbows... give it a try.

-Savi.

[t_niehoff]

A couple of points from my perspective . . . take them fwiw.

First, how fast you can throw lien wan chuies (linked, chain punches) shouldn't be an issue IMO, and IME if you focus on that then you'll miss what you should be concerned with. The real issue is whether or not you have penetrating and stopping power behind those punches. Too often I have seen folks pepper their jik chung chuies with fair speed, yet none of the punches had either penetrating or stopping power. And if your lead punch doesn't have real power neither will your second punch because it will not have the correct distance to be optimally effective. Nor will the third punch. Etc. It is important that the first punch stop the opponent cold in his tracks and even blast him backward. A blow like this penetrates through the body attacking organs and the nervous system. Now you will have the distance (and time!) to hit with full power on the second blow, and then the third. If a really big man rushes you and you hit him and he just smothers your power and keeps coming, you've missed your chance for follow up, and you're going down. To develop this stopping power one needs to grasp the proper mechanics of the punch. And it is easy to test whether you (or your teacher) possess those mechanics or not -- have a training partner hold an airshield in front of him and have him run at you from across the room with the idea of running over you (and not stopping even when you hit him). Now hit him with your punch(es). If you have the right mechanics, you'll blast him backwards (he'll feel like he ran into a battering ram) at first contact and then you'll drive him across the room. TN

Second, all this talk of "reaction time" is misplaced IMO. WCK's method - at least as I understand and practice it - is not to be reactive. Should my opponent move, his movement will generate my movement -- instantly and without reaction. We don't want to act "fast", as that will not be fast enough. You must be instant. And there is a huge difference between being fast and being instant. Instant means that there will be no time for an opponent to react to what you do, because it does not enjoy degrees of speed. It is simply instant! But instant involves a good many things. In order to achieve it, a fighter must train his body in such a way as to achieve it. And that's what our training should involve. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Lots of good points. Only thing I'll add is that Lien Wan is not just about the Choi, or punch, but uses it as a quick and easy example to show one version (depending on how you train, I learned more than one version) of the vertical cycle, which, IMHO, is important in and of itself.

[Savi]

Terence, you are talking about something different than what Lews was asking.

First, how fast you can throw lien wan chuies (linked, chain punches) shouldn't be an issue IMO, and IME if you focus on that then you'll miss what you should be concerned with. The real issue is whether or not you have penetrating and stopping power behind those punches. TN

Terence, the real issue here is about discussing the use of chain punching as a training method, not a fighting application. The focus of this discussion is on the development of attributes; not fighting ability. There is nothing wrong with training a hardened fist as Lews method would do.

Too often I have seen folks pepper their jik chung chuies with fair speed, yet none of the punches had either penetrating or stopping power. And if your lead punch doesn't have real power neither will your second punch because it will not have the correct distance to be optimally effective. Nor will the third punch. Etc. TN

As it is Terence, let’s make sure we understand that you speak of what you have seen, and that’s it. What you have stated in the above quote is true with regards to the scenario you used. But a failed punch (one which does not have “penetrating or stopping power”) should not be followed up by a second or third punch. Let’s keep in mind that strategy and tactic must be addressed. Chain punching should only be done when you are driving your enemy back, not when you are engaging them.

It is important that the first punch stop the opponent cold in his tracks and even blast him backward. A blow like this penetrates through the body attacking organs and the nervous system. Now you will have the distance (and time!) to hit with full power on the second blow, and then the third. TN

First strikes are never a guarantee. However, if you are looking to give yourself the space and time to do what is necessary, it should not be done through striking. It should be done through redirection: i.e. risk management.

If a really big man rushes you and you hit him and he just smothers your power and keeps coming, you've missed your chance for follow up, and you're going down. TN

This is very true, but that would mean I used the incorrect strategy. WCK, as its method is taught in our family, is always to meet a forward attack with a flanking or sideways position / maneuver and never meet the enemy head-on as your example may be suggesting. One should not become the deer in the headlights when a mack truck is coming right at you. Move to side.

To develop this stopping power one needs to grasp the proper mechanics of the punch. And it is easy to test whether you (or your teacher) possess those mechanics or not -- have a training partner hold an airshield in front of him and have him run at you from across the room with the idea of running over you (and not stopping even when you hit him). Now hit him with your punch(es). If you have the right mechanics, you'll blast him backwards (he'll feel like he ran into a battering ram) at first contact and then you'll drive him across the room. TN

Here I would have to disagree with you. It doesn't matter how good your structure is Terence. If they have the momentum and you do not, even structure will not save you. The nature of Wing Chun is not to stop an incoming force, but to redirect it and bend it to your will.

Your example here is assuming Wing Chun uses the mentality of force on force. Your approach is an extremely basic and primal method to deal with incoming force and contradicts the nature of Wing Chun. Wing Chun does not give rise to ‘yang to yang’ and ‘yin to yin’. If your strategy is to stay in the path of the attack, you had better be good at what you say buddy! I’d be moving to the flank of my opponent, especially if I am smaller than they.

-Savi.

[Savi]

Second, all this talk of "reaction time" is misplaced IMO. WCK's method - at least as I understand and practice it - is not to be reactive. Should my opponent move, his movement will generate my movement -- instantly and without reaction. TN

What do you mean by misplaced? To be spontaneous, as you are suggesting, is to react to a cause with an effect. A mental or physical stimulus causes other muscles to react. How fast that occurs is referred to as “reaction time.” Is that misplaced Terence? I would think that involves every single thing that you do.

-Savi.

[t_niehoff]

Savi,

IMO we apparently have fundamentally different views of WCK and its approach and training. In my WCK I use stillness to overcome movement, I stay as he comes (to receive him), prefer less movement over more movement, use WCK mechanics and not "attributes", etc. "Time and space" aren't factors when you are joined with an opponent (for example, when your arm and my arm are joined -- becoming one arm -- where is the "time and space"? Does my forearm "react" to what my elbow does? Or does my elbow cause my forearm to act *instantly*? When we are joined, your arm is the elbow and my arm is the forearm of our combined arm.). These things, like speed and "reaction time" are only relevant when you don't know the most fundamental of things, like "dap", or if you are using a different method. TN

Terence

[KenWingJitsu]

First, how fast you can throw lien wan chuies (linked, chain punches) shouldn't be an issue IMO, and IME if you focus on that then you'll miss what you should be concerned with. The real issue is whether or not you have penetrating and stopping power behind those punches. TN
Correct!!!!

[S.Teebas]

Good points by Terence.

Theres no point in having fast hands that casue no effect. Better to train correctly first, then speed willl become naturally available.

Slow chain punches are a good way to concentrate on getting the mechanics, relaxation, co-ordination all as close to perfect as possible. Then use the wall bag for some feed back on if your doing it right.

[Lews]

You know what I really appreciate all of the feedback but, I kinda have a bone to pick brothers.... All of you give a good point of view but please, please just stick to the topic......Savi bought up a good point and I appreciated how explained it. But what I don't like is those crazy answers, I have been taking wing chun for a year and a couple of months now and I think I have a fair understanding of the concepts...don't turn into a fortune cookie on me...

EX:"I wonder how a gun works, you know how the bullet leaves the chamber?"

these are some of the answers I get

Focus on the finger my brother, that is where the evil lies
No not the finger the man, he made the gun that is what you should ask
No, No ...it's all about the gunsmith...lol
======
I don't want to hurt anyones feelings, and I know it isn't always about speed but please out of respect to the person who started the post....STICK TO THE TOPIC!!!

Lews
P.S.-thanks Savi for enlightening a younger bro
P.P.S-thank you older brothers for your input

[EnterTheWhip]

Chain punches are useless, and they look stupid.

[t_niehoff]

Lews wrote:

You know what I really appreciate all of the feedback but, I kinda have a bone to pick brothers.... All of you give a good point of view but please, please just stick to the topic......Savi bought up a good point and I appreciated how explained it. But what I don't like is those crazy answers, I have been taking wing chun for a year and a couple of months now and I think I have a fair understanding of the concepts...don't turn into a fortune cookie on me...L

From my perspective (20+ years), your question -- about chain punching reps and "hand speed" -- show that you don't have a "fair understanding of the concepts"; if you did, you wouldn't be asking this type of question. But don't feel slighted: you've only been doing WCK for a little over a year. there are folks that have been doing it for much longer and still don't "get it." TN

Enterthewhip wrote:

Chain punches are useless, and they look stupid. ETW

Perhaps you've never met someone that could really use them or knew how to use them. TN

Terence

[EnterTheWhip]

Perhaps you've never met someone that could really use them or knew how to use them.Perhaps. Perhaps those who do them think they know how to use them.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
From my perspective (20+ years), your question -- about chain punching reps and "hand speed" -- show that you don't have a "fair understanding of the concepts"; if you did, you wouldn't be asking this type of question. Once again TN hits one out of the park. Well said. :cool:

Oh, BTW, am I off topic? :rolleyes:

Matrix

[Savi]

The thanks goes back to you Lews for creating this thread. I understand your original question was just about others' experience in chain punching. I just thought that a little tidbit about the elbows might benefit you in any way.

Keep training,
-Savi.

[KenWingJitsu]

Does anyone smell any trolling around here? *sniff* yup.

[mun hung]

The chain punch done properly can be a very dangerous weapon in the right range. The problem with it is that ALOT of people feel it is the end all/be all solution to multiple problems. I would'nt go as far as saying that it is useless, but IMHO it's applications are definitely misunderstood by many. I remember watching a UFC match where one of the fighters did something resembling a chain punch after making contact with a good solid punch first. He literally chased the guy pounding him with punch after punch and ended up winning the fight short after. Can't remember the name of the fighter or the match.

The chain punch can be very effective once you are "in" the opponents horse but is virtually useless against any skilled fighter outside of it (opponents horse).

Lew - IMO it does'nt really matter if you punch for two minutes or twenty or if you practice them in sets. What matters IMHO is the quality of the punches thrown and of course...the horse. :)

[t_niehoff]

Enterthewhip wrote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you've never met someone that could really use them or knew how to use them. TN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps. Perhaps those who do them think they know how to use them. ETW

That's a fair point. And that's why I have repeatedly said we have to test these things against uncoopertative, resisting opponents to *know*. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Once again, focus seems to be too much on the "choi/punch", not enough on the "lien wan/linked chain"... If you're looking at the fists, your missing most of the goodness.

[Savi]

Parts vs Whole:
I'm of the mind that a technique is never any singular part of the body whether it be a hand, an arm, a leg, or whatever. I feel that once the practitioner understands [both physically and mentally] what Body Unity is, then the technique is really addressing the body as a whole, from head to toe.

That said, to me, a tan sau is incorrect if the horse does not support it. ANY hand application without proper body and horse support is invalid. But this is just my opinion...

Lin Wan Kuen:
Chain punching, personally I would not do as the only contact to my enemy would be my fists. I would much prefer a second point of contact accompanying each punch, whether it be a leg bridge to their horse, or a gum sau to the arm, or a pak sau to the shoulder, etc...

What that would mean then is that rather than keep my opponent at my perimeter which is bridging/long striking range, I personally feel more comfortable in the trapping range of combat, which would of course require 'two-hand' applications.

WRT chain punching, should my first reaction be to connect with a fist and it is successful, then my second response (faan sau) would most definitely be another punch to exact same location should the hole in their defense still be open. How effective the punch is would be determined if:

1) my structure (head to toe) is correct throughout the ranges of motion, and superior than the opponent
2) I am at the proper distance to deliver a penetrating strike
3) it disrupts or destroys their self-awareness
4) it destroys their balance
5) it takes away any possibility of return fire (from the opponent)

Of course you do not think about all these things at the given moment. You can only capitalize on a person's self-awareness when it is failing to overcome yours.

-Savi.

[kj]

Originally posted by Savi
That said, to me, a tan sau is incorrect if the horse does not support it. ANY hand application without proper body and horse support is invalid. But this is just my opinion...

I share that opinion.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by Savi
Parts vs Whole:
I'm of the mind that a technique is never any singular part of the body whether it be a hand, an arm, a leg, or whatever. I feel that once the practitioner understands [both physically and mentally] what Body Unity is, then the technique is really addressing the body as a whole, from head to toe.

That said, to me, a tan sau is incorrect if the horse does not support it. ANY hand application without proper body and horse support is invalid. But this is just my opinion...

I share that opinion.

Regards,
- kj

[Savi]

Originally posted by kj
I share that opinion.

Regards,
- kj
Cool :cool: !

Keep training, thanks.
-Savi.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Chain punches are not useless and don't look stupid.

They have their place in your wing chun arsenal of moves and strategies...

...Especially AFTER you've gained an "opening line " to attack on...

BUT DON'T GET HUNG UP ON CHAIN PUNCHES...!!

The whole idea of using them is.. WAY.. overdone!

There's a lot more to learn than this one move.

[Stevo]

Are chain punches meant to be like 'shock and awe'?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Stevo
Are chain punches meant to be like 'shock and awe'?
No, more like "aw, shucks," as in, "Aw, shucks, this isn't working. I should'a studied the details of Wing Chun more."

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Grendel

No, more like "aw, shucks," as in, "Aw, shucks, this isn't working. I should'a studied the details of Wing Chun more."

LOL!!! Good one Grendel!

Stevo

[hunt1]

Renee stop giving away the secrets!:cool: