Some thoughts on Tainan's Comments

[mantis108]

The thread about "Respects for Other Styles" was moved possibly because of it heading toward non PM concern. However, I followed it and saw Tainan's comment is relevant to PM. There are certain points of it that I feel need to be addressed.

First a recap of what Tainan wrote:


details of the match

Hi WM,
The takedowns that he used I learned in PM as well as their counters so it wasn't unfamiliarity of technique.
The ground control I knew except the Gi Chokes. Also what I had learned in PM.

Rolls didn't talk a lot since he was still learning to use English.
After 3 falls I said ok let's train.
Then the whole class was working on going from position A to position B.

It was the exact same move in #2 of PM Luohan Gong, the second Luohan called Tyrant Lifts the Tripod.

The other student, a sixth degree shredded Karate guy, was convinced I lost because of using an inferior style.
I can't concede to that since I already was familiar with the techniques.

After the workout I asked Rolls about his training.
His dad, also named Rolls, you may remember he died in a plane crash some years back.
Anyway, his dad had a large school in Brasil when Rolls Jr was born.
So his first memories are nothing but the mat. He started when he was three.
Compare that to me starting when I was fifteen.

So three reasons I lost...

-His brain had better nerve wiring since he started much younger.

-My training at that time(since corrected) had to much training aspects that don't directly help fighting.
Compare to PM originally having but 3 forms. Now most schools have 50 or more.
If the school has less than 20 forms it is considered few.
Better to just each the 3 original forms, or three favorites.

-It is easier to practice all out grappling and takedowns every class as compared to most PM techniques which more easily cause damage.

EG. In Judo class I can take body slams full power for most of the class.
But in PM I can't Go-Lo Tsai my partner in his nose more than once unless we have safety equipment. And then I can only do it a few times.

So he could go all out on his takedown with out worry while I can't. Maybe some can, but like my old Shrfu said, " Are you going to poke out his eyes to prove a point?"
Not to say that I could have won with an eyepoke...



Mantis108

[mantis108]

"The takedowns that he used I learned in PM as well as their counters so it wasn't unfamiliarity of technique.
The ground control I knew except the Gi Chokes. Also what I had learned in PM."

Well, I'd share a little story with you, Tainan my friend. One of my students who is praticing Karate at the same time just got her Karate brown belt 2 months ago. Couple weeks ago she told me that they were doing some Bunkai (2 people drills) which involve a takedown similar to PM's Deng Ta. She was able to counter and even disrupted the flow of her opponents' moves using the counter that PM has (she kind of cheated there). Her opponents? 2 male black belts. She was excited to say that she was very please with the Kung Fu training. Now the moral isn't about Kung Fu is better nor is it that Karate has been waterdown. To me the story is about PM is practical and there is no question about that. It would be upto the person to apply it. BTW, those are the same counters that you showed me and it is on your video as well.

"Rolls didn't talk a lot since he was still learning to use English.
After 3 falls I said ok let's train.
Then the whole class was working on going from position A to position B."

Here is, I believe, where the difference between many Kung Fu schools (including a majortiy of PM) and BJJ is. While we work on perfecting the forms for show, they work on techniques for real. Not only that, they also have figured out a training format that is relatively safe and would empower their techniques. This is what is lacking in most Kung Fu training today. Personally, I see in PM that such format can be made available but it needs those who are in the teaching position willing to accept it. Now that would be a mission impossible. BTW, please don't think that I am speaking of San Shou.

"It was the exact same move in #2 of PM Luohan Gong, the second Luohan called Tyrant Lifts the Tripod."

I see. Thanks for sharing that. :)

"The other student, a sixth degree shredded Karate guy, was convinced I lost because of using an inferior style.
I can't concede to that since I already was familiar with the techniques."

I hear you and I agree with your position on that.

"After the workout I asked Rolls about his training. ...
So three reasons I lost...

-His brain had better nerve wiring since he started much younger."

That might be and one might also think that genetics plays a part too? ;)

"-My training at that time(since corrected) had to much training aspects that don't directly help fighting.
Compare to PM originally having but 3 forms. Now most schools have 50 or more.
If the school has less than 20 forms it is considered few.
Better to just each the 3 original forms, or three favorites."

I am glad that you have corrected the course. :) Well, I definitely think that proliferation of forms is problematic. However, far too many people think that it is a "proud heritage". There is also a blind pursuit of form which is a reflection of the believe that forms equals a collection of techniqes. So the formula goes like more forms equals a huge arsenal of techniques. That might be so in some styles. However, in Mantis many techniques are actually variations of a few techniques. For example, the movement of Deng Ta and Deng Pu takedown are identical. The difference is where and how do you apply it.

"-It is easier to practice all out grappling and takedowns every class as compared to most PM techniques which more easily cause damage.

EG. In Judo class I can take body slams full power for most of the class.
But in PM I can't Go-Lo Tsai my partner in his nose more than once unless we have safety equipment. And then I can only do it a few times."

While I absolutely agree that Go-lu-tsai can very well be a one move knock out, I think we can not forget that go-lu-tsai is also a fake to backon trapping and even takedown (ie go-lu-tsai followed by a waist chop).

"So he could go all out on his takedown with out worry while I can't. Maybe some can, but like my old Shrfu said, " Are you going to poke out his eyes to prove a point?"
Not to say that I could have won with an eyepoke..."

Well, you have worked with me before and you know that chit jow (cut elbow or standing arm bar ) is a preferred stand up grappling technique among my tools. Many follow up techniques can be launch from that "position". In a way, it's like the "guard" of BJJ.

I believe it is upto the individual to decide whether his/her PM fighting is striking oriented, grappling oriented or even a mixture of both. That goes for the degree of "ugliness" as well. The guidence of the instructor is just that - a guideline. It should not be revered as a golden rule. Making it work for you the way you wanted it must be your own responsibility. This is what, we as instructors, needed to encourage the students to not to be affraid of taking the step toward freedom of expression.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[HuangKaiVun]

ANY Gracie is a very tough fighter.

There is absolutely no shame in losing to one, particularly since this was NOT a real fight.

Besides, Praying Mantis's real application is in the street anyway. You can't eyejab somebody in a friendly encounter - not even a Gracie.

TainanMantis knows that Praying Mantis is a very tough fighting style. So do we all.

[Tainan Mantis]

I agree with both you guy's comments.
In the end it just boils down to the fact that the man was more skilled and experienced than me.

Huang,
you are right, it wasn't a real fight.
But Rolls didn't know that.
He walked into the room and the student said," Hey Rolls, this is a kung fu guy from Taiwan, he's gonna fight you." Then the student says to me," Use any technique, poke out his eyes, kick him in the balls, it doesn't matter..."

[flem]

tainan,

i probably missed it, but did this guy just rush in allowing you no time to apply techniques. i assume you were taken down, were you unable to apply your techniques there? sorry if you've already covered this

[Tainan Mantis]

I came in to hit him on his left ear.
He blocked it with his left hand and put his shoulder to my belly and took me down.
Very fast and very smooth.

If I had chance to practice with him I think I would be better at avoiding his takedown.
Obviuosly we know what to do in theory, but just have to have someone to practice it on full speed many times.

I should mention that other peole who have come in like that I have hit on the head. Usually these people didn't have enough experience and tried to come in at a bad time.

[WanderingMonk]

Now, I don't want leave the impression that I don't think PM is effective. I was just wondering how the contest went and how did the Gracie guy won.

You don't see Gracie's fighting in the Pro MMA format lately. Many people who are trainned in BJJ (grappling, etc) got taken out in the last Pride in Japan by strikers (or at least that's why people on other forums are saying).

It seems to me that strikers on the MMA circuit had gone to school on how to deal with BJJ stylist and figure it out. TMA stylist could do that too, but it requires some tweaking in the training which Tainan Mantis already mentioned.

To Tainan Mantis,

Thanks for the reply.

wm

[mantis108]

I just want to clarify that I have worked with Tainan Mantis myself. This working relationship is still very much alive. There is no doubt in my mind that he is one of the high calibur Mantis exponents that I have the pleasure to work with in person. I am also aware of the difference between self defense, martial arts/sports and even ritual arts. What Mantis and BJJ can offer IMHO are very different. I think most people on these boards know that very well. Personally, I respect BJJ for what it is and that goes the same with other legitimate styles out there.

Mantis108

[HuangKaiVun]

" Use any technique, poke out his eyes, kick him in the balls, it doesn't matter..."

And yet you STILL restrained yourself?

Tainan Mantis, my regard for you goes even higher.

Like it or not, you don't just start tearing into people in challenge matches. There's an unspoken rule about not going overboard in using excessive force in friendly fighting.

What you did was exactly what a MASTER would've done.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
" Use any technique, poke out his eyes, kick him in the balls, it doesn't matter..."

And yet you STILL restrained yourself?

Tainan Mantis, my regard for you goes even higher.

Like it or not, you don't just start tearing into people in challenge matches. There's an unspoken rule about not going overboard in using excessive force in friendly fighting.

It's not necessarily a matter of restraint, but, oftentimes, one of self-preservation. If one party steps over the line and takes a challenge match to the next level with biting or eye gouging, he is now implicitly giving the other person permission to do the same to him.

[HuangKaiVun]

It IS a matter of restraint when you are the proprietor of a business.

You can throw that ear strike, but you're not going to follow through with full force. Do that and you'll go to jail no matter what country you live in.

It's obvious that this was NOT a real life-or-death challenge match. Otherwise one of the opponents would've been seriously injured or killed. "Friendly fighting", Knifefighter.

That's why Tainan Mantis acted like the professional sifu that he is.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
It IS a matter of restraint when you are the proprietor of a business.

Not necessarily. I know several MA school business owners who have had some pretty serious challenge matches at thier studios which, while not resulting in death, ended up with some emegency room visits. Knowing how to put together comprehensive informed consent and waiver forms can significantly limit any liability exposure.



Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
You can throw that ear strike, but you're not going to follow through with full force. Do that and you'll go to jail no matter what country you live in.

You don't actually think you can kill someone with an ear strike, do you?

[diego]

Knifefighter, (for my own ignorance) why wouldn't a full force strike anywhere kill someone?.:confused:

you trolling this forum or am i missing something?:) .

[18elders]

different bodies structures have different advantages, you are very tall and it is a disadvantage for your body for takedowns. If it was a "real" fight perhaps it would've been different and you may have been able to hurt him during his takedown?

[Stacey]

more Knifefighter bullshiBe

maybe in your ass backwards aparteidland....in America, that little waiver doesn't hold water. You will get sued for everything you have.

If you want to soften the blow, incorporate and get good health insurance with an ad&d rider.

[Stacey]

more Knifefighter bullshiBe

maybe in your ass backwards aparteidland....in America, that little waiver doesn't hold water. You will get sued for everything you have.

If you want to soften the blow, incorporate and get good health insurance with an ad&d rider.


MMA is a sport...your skills will help you......if your style sucks, thats your problem.

[Tainan Mantis]

18 Elders,
You know the funny thing is that this Gracie was 6'4.

There are some takedowns I don't feel comfortable with, like the ones he did to me(I'll show you when I'm in town next month).

But I find that most of the PM takedowns are the kind that suit me well.

[yu shan]

Tainan Mantis

Are you going to be in the states (florida) soon? If so, does John know this? I would like to hook up while you are here, many things to talk about. I have learn some "mantis take-downs" from my Shrfu, I do have extensive wrestling background also. It is interesting to me the comparison between the two. Not much on the defense side of the take-down Gong-Fu style. Is there a defense to a take-down taught in the Asian arts?

[Tainan Mantis]

yu shan,
John has asked me to come to his school while I am in FL.

Takedown defense(IMHO):
First is attack while being attack, makes takedowns more difficult.
This is like long range against short.
Like spear against saber.
When the saber passes the spear it is hard for spear to recover, but it is hard for saber to pass spear so...

next is counter takedown attempt with short strikes.
Like elbow to back of neck to counter leg grab.

next is counter takedown with reversal.
Like over shoulder throw when you apply dengta.
This one you see in Judo, but without the punches to "butter him up."

And most important.. Like what you said, not much about defense.
PM is not self defense(disagreers feel free to comment).
It is not practical to think of how you will defend from this or that technique.
Just how to attack your opponent.

I think John also makes this evident in his teaching.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by diego
Knifefighter, (for my own ignorance) why wouldn't a full force strike anywhere kill someone?

Yes, a full-force blow MAY kill someone. However, the chances of being able to kill another skillful fighter (or even a non-skilled person) with a single blow are pretty remote. The majority of people who are killed by blows die after they fall and hit their heads on a hard surface.

Striking someone in the ear is no more likely to kill someone than hitting him in any other area of the head.


Originally posted by diego
maybe in your ass backwards aparteidland....in America, that little waiver doesn't hold water. You will get sued for everything you have.

You DO understand the need for having both waiver and informed consent forms and understand the difference between them, right? That's why you understand that just having a waiver form may not hold up in court, right? And you are familiar with the variety of recreational related judgements that have come down through the courts over the last several years, right? That's why you can make such an informed comment on the lack of validity of these types of forms, right?

[HuangKaiVun]

This discussion has become pointless.

Too much testosterone, too much juvenile uninformed BS, too much macho "self-preservation".

REAL martial arts business owners don't do that crap.

It's just legally STUPID to do that.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
REAL martial arts business owners don't do that crap.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't I seen several posts of yours where you have proposed fighting others from this board, either at their school or yours?

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

And most important.. Like what you said, not much about defense.
PM is not self defense(disagreers feel free to comment).
It is not practical to think of how you will defend from this or that technique.
Just how to attack your opponent.


While I agree with you about PM not being a defensive system, it does allow one to defend oneself. ie, if all you concern yourself with is how to attack, a skilled opponent will catch you off-guard if they attack first & you are not familiar enough with a counter-attack to close the door on them.
IMHO, defending sometimes equals knowing how to counter-attack efficiently & this is indeed practical.

Just some thoughts;

Best Wishes to all,
~BTL

[HuangKaiVun]

It goes like this, Knifefighter.

A lot of guys here, when called on their BS, shut the hell up and run far away.

Other guys, like you, attack when people call them on their BS. I've seen you do it to blacktaoist and others.

I know EXACTLY what you're thinking. And I'm already 6 steps ahead of you.

[BeiTangLang]

Please cease the personal bickering. If you want to bash each other, please do it through pm or email.

[Tainan Mantis]

BeiTangLang,
You are right.
It is just hard to put it into words without being misunderstood.

[mantis108]

I think Tainan is right in that PM is beyond simple self-defense. It is designer Kung Fu that offers the practitioner the full spectrum , which CMA has to offer. To say that it is about self-defense is only stratching the surface of the gold mine. But then there are people who are contant with superficial understanding of MA.

Mantis108

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by mantis108
I think Tainan is right in that PM is beyond simple self-defense.
It is designer Kung Fu that offers the practitioner the full spectrum , which CMA has to offer. To say that it is about self-defense is only stratching the surface of the gold mine.

Beyond simple self defence as a system, I agree totaly.


Originally posted by mantis108
But then there are people who are contant with superficial understanding of MA.

Mantis108 [/B]

Once again, I agree; some folks are indeed content with superficial understandings.

Best Wishes,
~BTL

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
A lot of guys here, when called on their BS, shut the hell up and run far away.

Other guys, like you, attack when people call them on their BS.

So... If a guy is going to "shut the hell up and run far away", it's OK to challenge him. On the other hand, if someone might step up, suddenly "real martial arts business owners don't do that crap." Is that the deal?

[BeiTangLang]

Back to the topic please...hurl insults, D ung, whatever on pm's & email please.

[yu shan]

Hats off to Tainan Mantis for his courage. Took balls to walk into a school no matter the circumstance.

PM Gong-fu, from what I have seen, is very offensive. There are numerous take-downs. Are there defends to the shoots (takedowns) ? My counter is from "wrestling". Have a good day.

[Tainan Mantis]

I have been visiting MA schools as a habit since TKD days.
Later both my sifu Art and Shr said it is good to go to other schools and look at what is going on.

Since learning about KFO that has included individuals.
Some of the schools I went to allowed me to walk in and spar, others let my join the workout.
Once, I was surprised to walk into one JKD school and find my kung fu brother as the head JKD instructor!

In Chinese there is a saying about a frog in a well that describes people who don't get out and look around.

Hanging out with the Judo guys helped me to realize why they do their throws differently from PM and why many PM throws are difficult to execute against judo people following their rules.

There are good counters to takedowns in PM.
Probably the best is the simple straight punch to the face, though there is also the elbow to the back of the neck and the reversal.

Also when someone tries to grab your wrists for a takedown it is a good time to apply the chinna.

These counters are common to many MA styles but not something you would learn in wrestling class.

Another useful point of the PM training is how the failed throw goes quickly to the strikes at a distance.
Also, how to fight an opponent who is better than you at a certain skill such as throwing.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Tainan Mantis,
I've also visited schools over the years whenever I travel. Unfortunately all I ever got was to watch a class then get a sales pitch to join. Even after I tell them I'm not there to join but to see what they're all about. Usually they're too busy dropping names of people I never heard of and insisting how great they are and their teacher. That includes both Karate and Kung Fu schools. Usually the attitude is 'whatever you know is crap compared to what I know' so I usually don't get to see what I went there to see. I find most are unwilling to share and if they do show something it's to prove how great they are. Nobody ever asked me to prove myself or show what I know. Nobody ever made an attempt at friendy conversation comparing techniques, forms or training exercises.

The last school I stopped in at (hi guys) considers me to be just another brain dead WL Sifu and pointed out some very basic stuff as if I don't know to drive thru a rising elbow arm break. Guess I just look like a goober.:)

I'm not looking to 'test' other styles and teachers but I do have a genuine interest in MA in general. Just trying to expand my knowledge.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hua Lin,
Sometimes I have to stand in a class and have junior tell me the proper way to stand in a horse stance.

Sometimes I am asked to share anything of my choice with the students and sometimes I get a spanking.
Whatever it is it helps me improve.

An elder brother who changed to Longfist came to visit me and learn my 2man saber stuff.
The conversation turned to empty hand fighting.

Neither of us was willing to swallow the other person's theory and so it quickly turned into a full contact melee.
This was good as I had a nice chance to "test" the theories of combat.

His side kick's to the knee weren't the end all he had imagined while my punches to the back of his neck from PM dodging and leaping were effective.

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan Mantis,


His side kick's to the knee weren't the end all he had imagined while my punches to the back of his neck from PM dodging and leaping were effective.

Is that the "Lao Hau Sheng Feng" (wind blows at the back of the head) that you have been working on? If it is, that's way to go! :D

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

Yes that is it.

[Joe Mantis]

Hey Guys,
IT took me awhile to glean the knowledge from this thread, finally.

Anyway, what about the Shoot? What do we have in PM that helps in dealing with this?
Or is PM better designed to be offensive? ie attack before the opponent shoots in.

gotta run but want to breakdown Tainan's experience.

Thanks,

Joe Mantis

[Joe Mantis]

Quick,

elaborate on Principles remaining constant regardless of standing or being on the ground.