Should all Wing Chun Forms be done Fast or Slow or both ways ?

[FIRE HAWK]

How should Siu Lien Tao , Chum Kui , Bil Jee , Wooden Dummy , forms be done fast or slow or both ways ? Or should certain techniques and movements be done slow or fast or both ways ?

[anerlich]

I practise:

Slow for precision.
Medium for flow.
Fast for speed.

My Sifu is not an advocate of "extended duration" SLT, like some.

[yuanfen]

Firehawk-
different folks have different strokes on this.
FWIW- from this POV.

1. On slt best to do the first section (tan, wu fok) slow- the rest full speed provided you have control of the motions.

2. None of the other forms need to be done slow- but you can vary the power or energy specially on the dummy depemding on what function you are working on.

[wingchunalex]

moderate speed for all of them (slt, ck, bj). the one exception is the tan/fook section of sil lim tau, it should be done extra slow (a good bit slower than tai chi speed)

dummy form done moderate to fast. more moderate though.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


In Koo Lo WC, as preserved by Dai sihing Wong Wah Sam, Leung Jan taught his pupils in the beginning to work on a smooth flowing pace. Its best for the beginner to spend lots of time like this as it is good for a few reasons.

1) The smoother movement allows for greater focus of the mind and concentration on the positioning/path of movement.

2) The smoother movement will eliminate a more linear or harder outlook of your boxing. This will link together each action without edge as I call it.

3) The smoother movement tends to help people avoid that muscular tension everyone uses so early on. Faster and more edgy action early on may not be as easy for the young pupil to relax with.


It kind of like a pinch fater than common Taiji.


Now! Once you spend good time on this you need to build up the speed/sharp twisting. Normal speed should be played with once the movement is properly burned in to the muscle memory. You cannot get the correct release of energy if you only practice slow so start slower and then do medium and then normal.


Just my thoughts!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hello again,


For a good example of how Koo Lo basics are trained you can take a look at Fung Keung sifu web page. He has recently added a bit more footage to the site.

The footage is from Koo Lo TV and in the beginning of the video there is nothing ther but then they show someone talking with a few young kids. Two boys and two girls. These four kids have nothing to do with Koo Lo WC but are there for the purpose of the TV show. They introduce them to Leung Jan's teaching and let them play around a bit. You can also check out Leung Jan's hometown!

PLEASE do not look at them and think they are representing Koo Lo WCK! They are more representative of kids clowning around!

Fung Keung is wearing a silk white kung fu type coat and his "real" pupils are wearing the orange shirts with the Chinese symbols on it. They only briefly demonstrate in the early stages of the footage.

Click on the icon above the other footage of Master Fung Chun.


http://www.ee.cuhk.edu.hk/~ymfung/kulo/PoAUoo/poauoo.html


Regards,

[Phenix]

Hi JIm,

Great stuffs. What Master Fung pracitises is identical with a segment in the 2nd part of Yik Kam's SLT. ... so there are some convergence again.


As for fast and slow, IMHO, it is about Yee.

As it was said in the Kuit " Yee moves and Shen is there". .... Yee is faster then body movement.......since Yee is the control or aiming guide.....thus the projectile of Jing can be very fast adaptive to the needs as soon as there is a contact surface and comfirm the need of the issue via sensing.

since the projectile is not greatly dependent on the type of surface. Thus, this can achive "lay lau hui song.... and using the tranquil to subdue the action...." at any time and place .... without compete in physical speed such as external art.

Well, but then different people can do the way they likes....
It is a free will world.


Hendrik

[reneritchie]

IMHO its like music. There is a definate rhythm, some parts faster, some parts slower, all clear and distinct, relaxed and precise.

(btw- some maintain slow is better for relaxation, but in the end you'll have to move fast and stay relaxed, so slow is okay for relaxation provided you work to increase speed and stay just as relaxed).

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik/Rene,


Good info.!

Strong Yee will produce strong Shen. Makes sense! Now if I could only do it!

Henrdik! Which movement did you see that shows connection to second section Yik Kam SLT? I am curious.

One must practice the speed otherwise they will be dead on the street. Stay relaxed and precise was the best way to put it RR.


See ya,

[Phenix]

Hi Jim,

That bong and huen... segment...



As for strong Yee will produce strong shen, I rather look at it as natural mindfullness yee will activate full shen.

And to cultivate the mindfullness Yee.

one needs to enter into the state of as what the Chan Buddhist said Samadhi. The Daoist said Enter into Silence. Some Said Knowing God. The Osensei of Akido said Let got the limiting thoughts...... or Theta State of MInd....

Certainly doesn't make sense for the people insist on Dimention, Space, Time....... God is everywhere and eternal means time is not applicable but not about forever. Get a copy of "Sound body sound mind by Dr. andrew.. get into the "deep" while listerning. and get some experience.....

http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/product.asp?sourceid=00398880837040651373&ean=619088122421&bfdate=03-27-2003+00:51:08&bfinfo=619088122421



The art of "lay lau Hui song..." has to be less dependent on Space, Time.... otherwise, we fight speed vesus speed... we need other alternative......IMHO


I don't belive in secret which is passed down and no one will know..... but limited to some who are having the original art... I belive in we all born equal and has the capability to experience.
it is about personal experience not about art collection exhibition.

if one listern to the above tape and experience the "deep" then my question is how did those Shao Lin Monks transmit these "deep" with the Dimention, Time, Space.... formula....
can that be done? or do these monks have the experience which claim to have?

IMHO.
once it gets to time, space, formula... one gets stucks in the time, space, formula one defines for oneself. It is more prone to interfering with nature then get back to nature...
at least the original face of Chan cannot be achive with attaching to a set of rules or riture.... thus one needs the guru to resonance and synchronize the attaiment.


KJ might think I go nuts again with eeg and biofeed back and those high tech garget. LOL.
but then, why should we belive in Shao Lin, Chan, Emei.....or this person or that theory... if we can't even quantitatively taste it or test it?
IMHO, the question is can the system derive the link of mind and body?

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
KJ might think I go nuts again with eeg and biofeed back and those high tech garget. LOL.

LOL, I think I misrepresented myself ... you'd be hard pressed to find someone enjoying "gadgetry" much more than I do. I'm literally an "instrumentation" person from way back, not to mention love of a good experiment. :)

When it comes to Wing Chun though, don't want to get sidetracked too long, or away from "simple" and "natural" too far, nor develop external dependencies, especially those biased toward one aspect of a thing rather than the balanced and integrated whole. And especially, I don't wish for focus on the "martial" and results oriented aspects to be lost in pursuit of something digressive. So my seeming "objection" was merely a reservation and a caution, not a showstopper. I promise I'm as interested as anyone to see measured and recorded data. ;)

Regarding your post above and writings in general. I'll be the first to admit that at times I'm completely unable to grasp what you're writing about. Given different backgrounds and communication styles, not at all surprising for things to go over my head time to time. Yet just as often, as with some points in your post above, I perceive something so keenly observed as to be enrapturing and on the verge of eloquence surrounding the profound depth and simplicity of Wing Chun ... aspects of such a deep or personal nature that few of us are able or willing to approach in discussion. Indeed, it is about personal experience. Whether genius or madman ;), thank you for the pensive moments.

(BTW, I don't really think you're nuts. Not yet anyway. :D )

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Jim Roselando]

Hey KJ,


Check into Zhan Zhaung (Jam Jong). There is lots of info on Yi Chuan, and other arts, that follow this principle. You will get a better idea of what Hendrik is writing about. I too had no clue (and still dont) but atleast I think I have a better idea since starting my Jam Jong practice and reading.

Most internal Chinese arts start with this training or have it. Chen Taiji starts with it. Check out Chen Zheng Lei's book. Hsing I has the San Tsi pole practice. Yi Chuan is based on 8 postures. A friend was just here from the UK showed me his 6 posts from some Emei art. A lot of systems even just start with the Wuji posture. You can also read (as Hendrik mentioned) anything written by Ueshiba (O Sensei) on Aikido. WC starts off with Siu Lin Tau which is non moving so one may wonder if the root is the Zhan Zhuang idea versus the Som Bo Gin or San Chin of the so-called "Shaolin" related arts!


Ok. Have to run.


Regards,

[kj]

Hi Jim, and thanks.

Yes, I've done some poking around about Yi Chuan, Chen's Taiji, and also some reading re Ueshiba and Aikido among other areas of similar interest. While I try to remain focused and not allow myself to get too often or too far off on tangents, I too see areas of common ground and interest. I don't understand enough about Emei, and I don't remember hearing of Zhan Zhaung before, but trust that those mysteries too may appear less cloudy over time.

Thanks for all the tips and hints. I haven't read Chen Zheng Lei's book, but will check it out when I get the chance.

I've a strong hunch we're on the same general wavelength. Another reason I'm intrigued by Hendrik's posts despite things going over my head at times.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Jim Roselando]

Hey KJ,


Chen Zheng Lei's book is nothing special but the one thing I like about is that the very first thing you do in the art is Zhan Zhuang! Hug the tree standing pole. Then you real silk and so on. I tried a pinch of this for a few months but droped it. Chen Zheng Lei showed me a few exercises and his movement was incredibly beautiful but I did not want another art. One is more than enough. Plus! The root of all these internal arts seem to be the first thing you learn. Zhan Zhuang! So, since my WC art does not focus on Chi Kung, and I wanted only that aspect to cultivate health, Zhan Zhuang was the perfect answer! Now I am realizing there is a lot more to it as Hendrik mentions.


Check out the foto! If you want to see more stuff just e-mail me off list!


:D


Regards,

[kj]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Chen Zheng Lei's book is nothing special but the one thing I like about is that the very first thing you do in the art is Zhan Zhuang! Hug the tree standing pole.

Aha! I am familiar with this, but only in English, LOL. Thanks for illuminating, Jim.


I did not want another art. One is more than enough.

Understood, and agreed. :)

Regards,
- kj