Pressure in Rolling/Poon Sau

[headstock]

hi,
This is my first post here on the forums. I've been doing wing chun for about 7 months and really enjoying it so far. As a relative new-comer to chi sau i'm uncertain of a few things. One thing i notice with different people is the pressure used when rolling. I try and keep contact with minimal pressure, to stay light and relaxed. Among other people ive felt different degrees of force. I asked a fellow student who said something like "you need to keep that pressure to come forward through a gap" this made sense but then i thought that it should be possible to feel the gap and come forward with fa jing energy from a relaxed state. We drilled this in class once i think, it starts with forarm to forarm then one partner drops his arm and the other partners hand comes forward quickly, it is important that the partners arent pushing each other to start. Anyway, even if i dont get a straight answer id be interested to read other opinions. Foolinthedeck, i know you're light in contact and agree with me ;)

Owen

[S.Teebas]

headstock says:

I asked a fellow student who said something like "you need to keep that pressure to come forward through a gap" this made sense but then i thought that it should be possible to feel the gap and come forward with fa jing energy from a relaxed state.

Pressure in chi sau should be increased over time. The beginning stages should be light. This is because you need to make sure what doing is correct. (ie your structure, direction of force, listening to the energy of the opponent etc..)

So make sure your doing it right before your push your limits.

Once you're able to correctly maintain a structure you will feel you are able to deal with the light force quite easily, where upon you should request an increase the pressure exerted one more notch. Only increase so much so you can retian the WC attributes. If your overloaded with force your wont beable to practice your structure, direction of force and relaxation (which will numb your ability to be sensitive). In which case you'll only be fighting force with brute strength and NOT working on increasing your WC skills.

Over time as your structure, relaxation and focus increase you will gradually be able to handle larger and larger forces placed upon you. Your skills in redirecting, eventually, huge ammounts of force will relate directly to somone throwing a full power punch at you. Actually i'd say once you reach the higher levels of chi sau, dealing with another WC persons whole body mass through your own structure (as over time your gradually increasing the pressure) should be easier than what most people can throw at you using localised muscle.

In anycase, increasing over time...in direct relation to your ability to maintain a progresive WC base.

And dont force your way in chi sau, its a art based on sensitivity and precision.

[kj]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
headstock says:


Pressure in chi sau should be increased over time. The beginning stages should be light. This is because you need to make sure what doing is correct. (ie your structure, direction of force, listening to the energy of the opponent etc..)

So make sure your doing it right before your push your limits.

Once you're able to correctly maintain a structure you will feel you are able to deal with the light force quite easily, where upon you should request an increase the pressure exerted one more notch. <snip rest of the good stuff>

Very nice, S. I agree that this type of progression is appropriate and helpful.

I would only add that at ever more advanced stages, and after the foundation, structure and usage is well developed, light pressure is once again appropriate, emphasizing and requiring even higher degrees of sensitivity.

Regards,
- kj

[old jong]

I would say that a certain amount of forward pressure is always needed in chi sau. You need to equalise what the other guy is giving but that does not mean that you have to go against force.
I always say to my few students to "have the switch on!" It is that forward pressure that is giving the signal that an attack is coming or that one has to go.It has nothing to do about ordinary reflexes.It is more some kind of mechanic reaction to me.
For experience, just try to stop a palm with your fok (Like in dan chi sau) first without any forward pressure or just laying on his tan,and now try it with the switch on!...
What amount of pressure can you equalise?...It depends a lot on your skills in body unity/structure and good positioning. The idea is to do it without straining or going against force (But we all know that!) ;)
BTW, We have to practice with /against realistic attacks if we want to be able to take care of a real situation out there.

[hunt1]

Of the 8 or 12 (depending on your method of counting) energies that can be used why commit to only one? Why commit energy at all ? Why not use 2 hands 2 energies ? If someone uses forward why not swallow? Why not spiral ? Why always forward vs. forward ?

[Marky]

If you're talking about pressure specificallly in the rolling motion, you should keep it constant with the tan, bong, and fok pressures you're applying at the "endpoints" of the rolling. If you apply more pressure, your opponent will redirect you. If you relieve the pressure, your opponent will come in, and his attacks are more likely to succeed.

[foolinthedeck]

i agree with most of what ahs been said.
there needs to be continuous variation, be able to respond not react, be like water as bruce said. having said that, relaxation and sensitivity will serve you better in the long run than attempting to use energy, by training for no energy, eventually u master it, by training to use it (IMExp) it masters you.

just a thought - dont say that foolinthedeck agrees with you, if you look at his posts, most people dont agree with him.:confused:

[wingchunalex]

the pressure is what lets you feel what the other person is doing.

[foolinthedeck]

i disagree.
i can feel without pressure, i can feel what the other is doing when i'm going back under pressure. its relaxation and sensitivity that gives access to the silent talk, not pressure. can you refine your comment or would u suggest that the actual way to develop 'feel' is by using pressure?

of course if your opponent uses pressure you will feel that - but then thats obvious isnt it?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
i disagree.
i can feel without pressure, i can feel what the other is doing when i'm going back under pressure. its relaxation and sensitivity that gives access to the silent talk, not pressure. can you refine your comment or would u suggest that the actual way to develop 'feel' is by using pressure?

of course if your opponent uses pressure you will feel that - but then thats obvious isnt it?
You are correct. I think S. Teebas and KJ know what's correct as well.

The key is good structure, then when the opponent exerts force, all they feel is their own energy. When an opponent gives me force, my horse absorbs it, and it increases my root and rebounds to the source.

In the progression as described by S. Teebas, it is important to start light and find perfect position, and to know it when you find it. Then, as you progress, you can exert greater pressure on your partner in chi sao through structural means rather than merely muscling it.

Regards,

[wingchunalex]

Yes I would say that the actual way you develope feel is by using pressure. I might add that its not huge amounts of pressure like i see some wing chuners use where they just bear down on their opponent and push them around. It just some spring like pressure that you just press a little bit with each roll, you don't try and run your opponent over with rolling like I've seen people do. If you get to see the instructional video by wong shun leung, the kind of spring loaded rolling they use in that is what I mean.

I'm not saying that you can't have really soft rolling and still have sensitivity, tai chi's push hands sensitivity training is very soft. It's just my way to use the pressure method, to me it better suites wing chun. just my 2 cents.

I am curious, what way does your sifu prescribe, that's what I would follow.

[foolinthedeck]

alex.
thanks for the clarification, that makes more sense to me now.
my chi sau is very much like push hands in terms of sensitivity, i've done chi sau with someone else doing puch hands and it works fine. I'd never suggest that everyone should do what i do, and so i agree with your approach.

one thing i would say though is that we all have to find our own way, keep asking questions, experiencing for ourselves etc, not just doing what our sifu says.

My present sifu is excellent in my opinion, but many people teach without fully understanding some things. i would not put myslef in a position to teach only share at the moment.

i have the problem that my original sifus - Michael Tse and Darryl Moy in Manchester England were very sensitive and relaxed, they both emphasised these aspects. Both also taught Chen Tai Qi, Wild Goose (Dayan) Qigong, Hard Qi gong and other internal arts. I believe this made my Wing Chun quite traditional and internal. the problem here is finding new sifu's who mirror the same emphasis. like i said my present sifu is great, but the emphasis is different. i prefer to stick to my original sifus emphasis.

[black and blue]

Where I train (Kamon) we use slight forward pressure and lots of forward intent :) Our forward pressure should be enough to hold good structure - we're not pushing forward hard.

We work on having very relaxed arms and shoulders, but don't subscribe to the 'little tap' school of hits ;) Some classes I've seen are very soft but a little flicky in the way they attack. If our hit on our training partner is not a solid hit, our attack is too forced/out of range/issued with poor timing.

If you don't mind me asking, where do you currently train, foolinthedeck?

[foolinthedeck]

foolinthedeck trains with the midlands wing chun association, in an unspecified location to protect the identity of the guilty.

black and blue

lots of forward intent

intent is like a tensed mind. if you use so much intent the skilled will pak sau your mind. relax more

[black and blue]

I don't know much about the Midland Association, do they have a website? From your first post, it sounds like you guys begin Chi Sau a little earlier than us. We usually start Seung Chi Sau after about 1.5-2 years.


relax more

Don't you start, I'm always telling me this too! :p


intent is like a tensed mind

More like a focussed mind - I don't want a lax mind, I'd start day dreaming. Sensitivity should be found in many places, not just the arms.

[wingchunalex]

Thats very interesting detail about your former sifus. It sounds interesting. My sifu teaches yang tai chi also. Good luck with adapting what you know and integration with what your present sifu's method. What an opportunity to experience both soft and pressured method.

This is just a idea, it would be benificial I think to use the method your current sifu uses and become very proficient in that, and then to also become very proficient in the soft method.

If you can't find a sifu like your former sifus then after you perfect the pressured rolling method then you can try and bridge the gap between the pressured rolling and your limited experience with soft rolling with experimentation and personal experience.

I would guess it would be great to be able to aply both methods of chi sau, just sort of the yin and yang of chi sau.

[foolinthedeck]

nice thoughts alex.