Natural Attributes

[taltos]

This stems from a conversation I had recently with some of my fung fu brothers...

First, I know that good WC is good WC, and it can be used to overcome a size/power disadvatnage in a confrontation. However, if two people fight, and all other things are equal (speed, energetic, structure, timing, sensitivity, etc.), then simple physics would dictate that the larger mass would come out ahead. (Again, assuming all other variables are equal).

I have several kung fu brothers that are big guys. They came in to the school with great physical strength. However, most of them began their training actively removing most of their strength from the equation, instead choosing to focus on structure and relaxation first. They wanted their natural attributes to eventually be an augmentation of their

already good WC, not a safety net fot their mediocre WC. They are very good about using strength when their partner is trying to test it against real, active resistance, but wary to apply strength when they themselves are training.

My question is, at what point do you think those natural attributes be brought back into the mix? Or do you think it is incorrect alltogether to remove it in the beginning?

I'd be interested to see what students think, and what teachers think, just to see if there is a difference.

Thanks!

-Levi

[Savi]

Hey Levi,
I reflect back upon when I first started learning Wing Chun. Previously I have been trained in Yang Tai Chi and the Shaolin 5 animals for a few years, so I did have some abilities prior to my current Wing Chun days. I was good with coordination, speed and reflex, and had a fair skill in dealing with energies from the Tai Chi and Shaolin animals training.

Looking back, I do recall my Sifu telling me on my first WC day with him, that if I want to learn Ving Tsun in its purity, I must first empty my tea cup of any preconceptions about combat. I should not let go of what I have already learned, but I should also not subject what I am learning to what I have learned until I finish this new journey.

Several years have passed since then. Now I have found that what I have learned since then has actually deepened my understanding of my previous training. It has enhanced my abilities to execute the animal styles with more precision and focused power and intent, but also it has brought much more meaning to the Tai Chi I practice and studied.

To first be able to fight, you must have the ‘Heart of the Tiger’, and nobody can give that to you or teach it to you. That comes from your own experience, your heart, your spirit.

To know how to fight, you must have the ‘Head of the Dragon’, and that is something a knowledgeable AND experienced teacher can give you.

Thought I’d share on the discussion … just my experience.

Regards bro,
-Savi.

[reneritchie]

Levi,

One of my classmates was abnormally strong (for jokes he would go into gyms and lift heavier than the lifters), and fast (close to olympic speed sprints), but most of all, could absorb incredible amounts of physical punishment (saw him take a Thai round kick in the head from an equal sized guy with narry a flinch). I was technically better at WCK than him, but I could hit him several times and he was still okay, but if he hit me once, I would be in trouble. In essance, his natural physical attributes provided a buffer. And they always will.

All other things being equal, anything unequal can make a difference. Wrestling, boxing, MMA, etc. have weight classes as part of this, and still weight cutting can make a difference.

But there are also mental attributes. Heart. Dedication. Will. Comprehension. These can also make a difference, perhaps not as evident as in the beginning, but as the years go by, when those with natural ability find its not enough any more and, absent a work ethic (if they never bothered to develop one) quit and go find something else to be naturally good at, the person with the mental attributes can just keep on keeping on.

To get back to your question, I do think physical attributes should be minimized for beginners so that they learn and don't just fake their way through. I think everyone should get as solid and detailed a foundation as possible. Then, if they can do that, the attributes will still be there if they need them (lucky b******s).

[reneritchie]

Savi,


Baak Fu, Ching Lung

The other two are pretty cool as well.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I agree with reneritchie that physical attributes should be minimized for beginners so that they don't "fake" the techniques and principles of wing chun...

But on the issues of head, heart, dedication, will, etc.

...the WILL... and the desire to win that always stands behind will and fuels it...

THE WILL...AND THE POWER TO,CONCENTRATE...OR FOCUS...

totally upon the task at hand (ie. - the fight itself)...


IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR IN DETERMINING WHO WINS AND WHO LOSES!

[Savi]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
...the WILL... and the desire to win that always stands behind will and fuels it... THE WILL...AND THE POWER TO CONCENTRATE...OR FOCUS... totally upon the task at hand (ie. - the fight itself)... IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR IN DETERMINING WHO WINS AND WHO LOSES!
I also agree with Sifu Parlati about will. I guess it's how you define it, and 'will' would fall into my understanding of "Heart of Tiger"...

Thanks,
-Savi.

[Marky]

Hi Taltos,

In my opinion, it's best to "block" an attribute from being a factor until you can use it or not use it under any circumstance, at will. For the purposes of training other attributes ONLY, of course (you'd better hit hard in a real fight even if you aren't as "sticky" as you'd like to be!).

[desertwingchun2]

Savi,


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baak Fu, Ching Lung
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The other two are pretty cool as well. -RR


If animals were smilie faces they'd be this guy -----> :cool:

-David

[Savi]

If the Tiger has a strong root, and the dragon has a military-style hair cut, they would both look like you put together...

-Savi.

Throw in a few more animals and you have Mr. Shipman! :D

[desertwingchun2]

"They came in to the school with great physical strength. However, most of them began their training actively removing most of their strength from the equation, instead choosing to focus on structure and relaxation first. They wanted their natural attributes to eventually be an augmentation of their already good WC, not a safety net fot their mediocre WC. They are very good about using strength when their partner is trying to test it against real, active resistance, but wary to apply strength when they themselves are training.

My question is, at what point do you think those natural attributes be brought back into the mix? Or do you think it is incorrect alltogether to remove it in the beginning?- Taltos"

IMO it's about one's self-awareness of, rather than the removal of raw strength. In that awareness comes the ability to focus on structures, relaxation, sensetivity, etc .... The story that shifted my strength paradigm is classic. Just can't share it online. If I did I'd be this guy -----> :o

So to answer the questions :

A) There is nothing to be brought back since it is still there. Just with a new attitude.

And ..

B) Being a "natural attribute" I don't think it can be removed. But must be re-focused (sp??)

-David

[aelward]

I think that Wing Chun optimizes your best attributes-- whether that is speed, strength, mass, or whatever. However, these physical attributes also have limitations, and you will always find someone stronger, faster, or bigger than you. Therefore, I agree with what some people have said: you have to learn to give up your physical advantages and replace them with solid structure and good sensitivity.

But once those are in place, you can learn to put your speed, strength, and size back into the equation. And chi sao or san sao with different sized partners definitely helps.

As my Sifu said, if someone hands you a 100-dollar bill (a real one, that is) without any strings attached, you would be a fool not to take it. Meaning that, it is pointless to abandon your strength if you are strong, your speed if you are fast, or your size if you are big.

[yuanfen]

A list friend sent me a wonderful article by Barry Lee of WSL WC-
empahsizing the devlopment of the attribute of focussed spirit
and how yee gee kim yeung ma when done right adds to strengthening that attribute.... which is unevenly distributed in
people. Nature is not always fair.

[taltos]

Originally quoted from yuanfen...

A list friend sent me a wonderful article by Barry Lee of WSL WC- empahsizing the devlopment of the attribute of focussed spirit and how yee gee kim yeung ma when done right adds to strengthening that attribute

Could you share the title, or perhaps an issue/link to it? I'd be very interested in seeing it. I have also enjoyed Mental Skills in Martial Arts by Miguel Hernandez, and there is unfortunately too little written on the mental aspects of training.

Thanks in advance!

-Levi

[yuanfen]

Taltos- one of the WSL folks or perhaps Rene may have the citation.
I have made an unorthodox career of paying attention to substance and leaving citations to library types and bibliogtraphers who cite but pay scant attention to substance.
Its a good article on traditional wc mechanics, the knees and
the development of the martial spirit.
Barry lee is a major wsl protege- real family in more ways than one.

[[Censored]]

My question is, at what point do you think those natural attributes be brought back into the mix? Or do you think it is incorrect alltogether to remove it in the beginning?

Ideally, the practitioner would stop trying to apply strength and speed advantages, because they were worthless against the Wing Chun of a smaller and weaker fellow. Not for any other reason.

Use specific practices to develop specific abilities. Strength and speed development DO have a place in Wing Chun. They are not everything, but they are most definitely something. Unless you are a impotent theorist, that is. :)

[taltos]

Thanks, yuanfen. I'll try to track it down.

Does anyone have any ideas? I ran a quick internet search, but came up short. Any help is greatly appreciated.

-Levi

[reneritchie]

If the Tiger has a strong root, and the dragon has a military-style hair cut, they would both look like you put together...

Do plaits still count as military? Anyway, I figure that's already covered without the dragon having to get shorn 8) But hey, when 2 out of 4 are mythic, the other 2 really have to pull more than their weight ;)

[Stevo]

Taltos, try:



Barry Lee Ving Tsun Martial Arts Academy

PO Box 65, Strathfield NSW 2135 Australia

Tel: +61 (0)419 746 001

Fax: +61 (0)2 8850 3420

Website: www.vingtsun.net.au

E-mail: info@vingtsun.net.au

[S.Teebas]

Levi says:


ARTICLE BY SIFU BARRY LEE??



Re: The novel-Barry Lee
Wednesday, 04-Nov-98 20:00:26
193.158.132.241 writes:
Andrew, BL'98.
I will answer your question as soon as I am able.Unfortunately I find
myself particularly busy at present and as I said this is a question
which cannot be answered in a few words.
I would say however that while you are often bound up in biomechanics
and injury as related to sports medicine you are missing the most
important aspects of training.
Sports medicine in particular is a fairly young science and by no
means has all the answers.In fact much can still be learned from
martial arts in particular,which have been around for a very long
time.We often seek to overcome the basic laws of physics and we can
still teach modern medicine a thing or two.
The stance in particular,if done correctly is more likely to relieve
pressure on the spine and correct many back problems while at the
same time strengthening the muscles which support the spine.It builds
strength in the ankles,legs and waist.The waist controls the
generation of power,the direction of force and energy,angles of
attack and defence,absorbtion of impact,the speed of your
step,balance,control,centre of gravity,facing and control of your
centre line and much,much more.You cannot aford to lose this position
and if you do you must be able to retrieve it in an instant.
If you feel pressure in the knees then you are most certainly
standing incorrectly.Do not put your weight in your knees or you will
NEVER be able to step quickly,never be able to use the waist to
propell you forward.You will ultimately "telegraph" your movement
when you step backward and will find yourself dragging your rear foot
when you step forward.You will have an incorrect centre of gravity
while standing still and when you kick and will be easily decimated
by a kick to either your front or your rear leg.You will never
properly control a sudden unrush of power by your opponent and often
will be driven into the ground instead of being able to step or
change direction easily.
The stance is meant to place controlled tension on the joint
areas..those areas easily damaged by quick changes in direction
particularly when under pressure from an opponent always trying to
force you away from your centre,in other words to force your weapon
and with it you away from your intended target.A form of isometric
training if you like which creates great strength in the ligament and
tendon areas of the knees and ankles not to mention the related
muscle areas.
If you cannot hold this toe in stance for long without your feet
straightening,then you will not be able to keep your feet in correct
position when you step..you will open your centre to attack,you will
drag your back foot and your kick will not be spontaneously delivered
from any angle at any time either while standing or in motion and
most importantly you will often find your waist incorrectly
positioned.If you have your back foot turned either out or in
incorrectly a kick to the front leg from the right angle will cause
both legs to collapse and you will lose you centre in the bargain.
It's an amazeing thing but this toe in stance creates a particular
tension through the legs,in the most important areas of the waist and
back and in the internal muscle groups of the abdominal wall.Without
this tension in the ankle you would find it almost impossible to
learn and feel the correct tension required for balance and strength
throughout your stance.
Also AND PLEASE REMEMBER THERE IS MUCH I HAVE LEFT OUT..
The Ving Tsun Stance is not a normal body position.We spend our whole lives
standing and moving in another way.Do you think that by standing in
this stance for a limited period each day or perhaps three training
days a week that the body will be able to retain this position or
retrieve it instantly when is under the extreme stress and pressure
of a real fighting situation.
Often one hour is all students have today in which to train this
stance due to the comittments of work and family etc and they also
want to go on to other things.What I am saying is that you should not
be in a hurry to proceed and overlook what is a fundimental and most
important part of your Ving Tsun training.Without the roots,without
the foundation the first good wind will uproot the tree.
From the outset,by standing for extra long periods in this stance,you
build correct balance and control of the body,the ability to feel and
draw energy from the ground,the ability to feel and control your
waist,not your waist controlling you,the ability to hold the correct
foot position by training and stretching the related areas.You are
taught the fundamentals of distancing of the feet,direction of your
step,the basis for easy natural kicking,a stance that will not easily
allow the legs to sink when tired.The ability to face and control
your centre and basis of lut sao and everything that siu lim tao
teaches us,which is considerable etc,etc,etc
Lastly and for me very,very important,is something overlooked almost
totally today by most who train in Ving Tsun particularly those who
train to fight.Standing for very long periods in this stance builds a
strength of mind and body which is a very hard combination to
defeat.If you can pass through the period where the boredom sets
in,pass through the burning legs and total body soreness that turns
ice cold and steel your mind to the pain you will eventually really
begin to feel everything that your body is doing and you will truly
be in control of your body not your body in control of you.
If your will cannot be broken you often cannot be beaten.When your
arms are so tired you can no longer hold them up,when a particularly
hard punch or kick really shakes you mentally as well as physically
you will find yourself drawing on reserves you never knew you had and
in a controlled balanced manner,because the body knows automatically
what is expected of it.It is conditioned to hold or take the correct
position particularly with the waist without the need for undue
strain because your training has made it such a natural position that
the surrounding muscles no longer have to TRY to hold it.
I have seen many fights won by strong minds that just would not give
in and many recoveries from almost certain defeat because of
instinctive reaction and a body that automatically positioned and
balanced itself correctly.
There are many other aspects to your Ving Tsun that encompass a
lifetime of learning and the siu lim tao stance is only a small
part,but without the stance there is no siu lim tao.Without siu lim
tao there is no Ving Tsun.Siu Lim Tao is not fighting but it is a
much more important step than many believe,not only to your
understanding but to everything you will be asked to do in the
future.
If you do not give Siu Lim Tao and this stance the time it
deserves,NOTHING ELSE will work for you with maximum efficiency.You
will never really understand your Ving Tsun and each new movement
will be harder to perform correctly..perhaps you never will know or
understand true Ving Tsun.
Regards,
Barry Lee. copyrightBL5.10.'98.

[vingtsunstudent]

i don't really know how far back the archives on the wing chun forum go but for those who have been around here for a while you should remeber that i did post this and another one or two of his articles quite some time back.
so if you enjoyed that one, you may be able to do a search and find them, although, i haven't had need to look for them myself, so i just don't know.
vts

[Rill]

The stance article, as well as an article written on the knives, can be found at http://www.vingtsun.net.au/mc01.htm.

There are several other noteworthy articles on the site, the discovery of which is left as an exercise for the reader (whoever's maintaining/constructing that site deserves to be made to listen to Celine Dion for a few hours).

vts - the archives only go a little way back before the mass conversion where we all suddenly joined in 1970, so if there's anything you posted that's not on the site and you feel like re-posting, I'm sure more than one of us would appreciate it.

[yuanfen]

Rill- Thanks again! Not only does Barry reinforce the imortance of learning ygkym well but his admonition to those who hurry and brag about knife usage is well stated.

Vingtsunstudent- I remember your earlier posts on Barry Lee.

[vingtsunstudent]

rill, actually after going over the site i think that all the articles i am allowed to post are on there.
yuanfen, good to see that some of my posts have not been forgotten, i just hope that this doesn't cause any controversy like some of them did way back when.
do you remember that bunch of fun?
also, i am glad that you enjoyed barry's articles and must thank you for the kind comments.
vts

[kj]

Great article. Thanks for posting, S.
Rill, thank you too for the link.

Regards,
- kj

[taltos]

Rill and S Teebas:

Much appreciated. I have some reading to do. :)

Thanks again!

-Levi