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joedoe
03-25-2003, 06:44 PM
Merging the threads has made for a very confusing read :)

dnc101
03-25-2003, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by joedoe
The silly thing is that the French oppose what the current day US leadership is doing. They still have a great deal of respect for that those WWII soldiers did for France. Two different things, but people seem to want to link them together. Silly

Last I heard, the Frogs wanted to bulldoze a major portion of WWII cemitary and put in an airport. Don't know how much support that had, just heard it on the news in passing.

As for the link, I didn't check it out. I see no point. We knew there would be casualties, and war is gruesom. I don't blame the Iraqui soldiers for combat casualties. But if those were executions, I hope Bush doesn't back down on his promise to treat ALL those responsible as war criminals. Anything less than trying and executing anyone who can be determined to have participated in any part of that, in any way, would be criminal negligence on our part.

And no, for you dingbats that are thinking of asking me if that includes George Bush, it does not. You, though, are suspect!

ZIM
03-25-2003, 07:21 PM
"British Royal Marine commandos on the Fao peninsula said Sunday that both they and low-flying US aircraft had come under sporadic fire from Iranian anti-aircraft batteries and fixed machine-gun posts.

The 40 Commando marines were in the town of Fao on the far south of the peninsula, just a few hundred metres (yards) from the Shatt al-Arab waterway that marks the border.

A Royal Marines spokesman said: "We are content that the fire from Iran was inaccurate and ineffective, but none the less puzzling".

The first of several volleys, witnessed by a reporter from London's Daily Mirror, was directed at a US A-10 Thunderbolt ground attack jet that swooped low over the Iraqi town to "buzz" a gun position."


full story @ spacewar.com...not much more, tho. Iran denies it...

Black Jack
03-25-2003, 07:52 PM
For those that wish to send there thanks to the men and women of the U.S. armed forces for their courage and ongoing efforts overseas here is a great link and it only take like 10 seconds.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/nmam.html

btw-Kung Lek, please don't merge this post as the link to send the thank you message will be harder to find. Thanks.

Serpent
03-25-2003, 07:54 PM
What about the British and Australian forces, fighting alongside?

Fukking Americans.

:rolleyes:

Black Jack
03-25-2003, 07:57 PM
Take it easy douchehump.

Its a American government website and if you can find one for the British or Aussie forces I would be more than happy to sign it.

This is the only one of its kind I could find.

Jeezzzz :rolleyes:

Laughing Cow
03-25-2003, 08:01 PM
Hey rogue.

You remember that chemical plant they captured in Iraq:

Here is a link to what they found there.

Findings (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=3&u=/ap/20030325/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_chemical_plant)

Seeya.

Serpent
03-25-2003, 08:03 PM
That's only part of the problem. Don't you think it's insulting that the British and Australian troops aren't included on that website you linked? Not even mentioned?

Serpent
03-25-2003, 08:09 PM
It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Laughing Cow
03-25-2003, 08:18 PM
Looks like more fronts are opening up in the Iraq War.

Arab league of nation will try to push for a UN resolution declaring the war illegal.
Britain and USA will certainly veto that one. :(

Also Turkey insist that they can send in troops to norther iraq to protect their buffer zone.

Looks like it is starting to turn nasty & ugly.

Serpent
03-25-2003, 08:20 PM
WTF!? This whole thing has been nasty and ugly for weeks.

Laughing Cow
03-25-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Serpent
WTF!? This whole thing has been nasty and ugly for weeks.

Ok, nastier and uglier.

Lets just hope it doesn't turn into a free-for-all over there.

I also heard some reports that shots were coming from IRAN.

Black Jack
03-25-2003, 08:25 PM
Serpent,

I did not make it out to be that big of deal. I just took it for what it was worth. It is a American government website that probably goes through some sort of specific channel for the U.S. troops to view overseas.

Don't look for fires where their is no smoke. Again, if you have a website for the other armed forces I will sign it and pass it around to my chums as I did with this one.

ZIM
03-25-2003, 08:32 PM
A 3 year old could describe it- succinctly!- "It's nasty like poo"


I also heard some reports that shots were coming from IRAN. I just posted that. The Iranians are denying it- might be Iraqis over the border?

Oh, yeh- lots more facilities to check out, still. Did a link last page. Strange war profiteering (http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/145/361/ssMain.asp?fmt=child&sld=8&res=10x7&0ss=N287145361) Anybody try to get Iraqi tv on their pc? (http://slate.msn.com/id/2080681/)

joedoe
03-25-2003, 08:33 PM
On one hand Australia's contribution is miniscule - 2000 troops and some equipment. But on the other hand, it has been disappointing to hear that recognition of Australia's contribution is largely overlooked in the USA. First I heard that there was a symbol of world unity in the media centre - except that it left Australia out. Then GWB delivers a speech thanking all its supporters in the coalition and went on to list everyone except Australia.

It often makes me wonder how important our relationship with the USA really is to the people of the USA.

Serpent
03-25-2003, 08:33 PM
The forum is populated by a very broad range of posters from all over the world. It wouldn't hurt to remember that when you post this stuff, that's all.

joedoe
03-25-2003, 08:36 PM
And the vultures continue to circle.

Laughing Cow
03-25-2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by joedoe
On one hand Australia's contribution is miniscule - 2000 troops and some equipment. But on the other hand, it has been disappointing to hear that recognition of Australia's contribution is largely overlooked in the USA. First I heard that there was a symbol of world unity in the media centre - except that it left Australia out. Then GWB delivers a speech thanking all its supporters in the coalition and went on to list everyone except Australia.

It often makes me wonder how important our relationship with the USA really is to the people of the USA.

This is what irks a lot of people in other countries.

They often seem to forget people that supply little or non-combat roles like re-fueling & intelligence.

Japan another firm ally of the USA often gets forgotten too.

count
03-25-2003, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by joedoe
On one hand Australia's contribution is miniscule - 2000 troops and some equipment. But on the other hand, it has been disappointing to hear that recognition of Australia's contribution is largely overlooked in the USA. First I heard that there was a symbol of world unity in the media centre - except that it left Australia out. Then GWB delivers a speech thanking all its supporters in the coalition and went on to list everyone except Australia.

It often makes me wonder how important our relationship with the USA really is to the people of the USA.
Hey Joe, I wonder about that myself? I thought it might be by request or something. Let me say for all of us...

THANKYOU Aussies
Thanks for the link Blackjack

joedoe
03-25-2003, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by Laughing Cow


This is what irks a lot of people in other countries.

They often seem to forget people that supply little or non-combat roles like re-fueling & intelligence.

Japan another firm ally of the USA often gets forgotten too.

Now you have irked me too - apparently the Aussies are providing frontline troops!!!

Just kidding. I know you didn't mean it that way. :)

Black Jack
03-25-2003, 08:57 PM
Look its no fuss and there are no cavalier attentions on my part, just passing along a good link I found, which you may notice allows people from all over the world to say thanks to the U.S. troops if they wish to do so, I understand a good deal of the posters here are from different parts of the globe, but that had nothing to do with putting up the link.

joedoe
03-25-2003, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by count

Hey Joe, I wonder about that myself? I thought it might be by request or something. Let me say for all of us...

THANKYOU Aussies
Thanks for the link Blackjack

No, I don't think there was any request not to be mentioned. The thing that gets me is that we are constantly being told how important our alliance with the USA is to both countries and this is why we had to support the USA in the current situation, then that kinda thing happens. It really does make me wonder how important the alliance is to the US.

I mean, I understand that in the big scheme of things Australia is not a big player - we barely even register as a small player. We are constantly told that our alliance with the USA is vital to Australia's security - this I do not doubt - but I start to wonder whether the USA really would come to our aid if we required it.

Please understand I am not talking about the people of the USA, but the administration.

Laughing Cow
03-25-2003, 09:02 PM
BJ.

We all appreciate the link, actually I send a message as a few of my US friends are over there now dodging bullets.

But at the same time let us also allow us to voice a bit of frustration over little recognition that people & fellow country-men get for either fighting alongside or supplying other vital services.

I am sure Japan would have loved to send in combat-troops, but alas their consitution forbids them from doing so.

Hence they sent aegis destroyers and re-fueling ships.

Black Jack
03-25-2003, 09:12 PM
Cow,

I agree and I did not mean to stir up anybody's frustration or to create a hornets nest. It's just a link.

Speaking for myself I admire and respect anybody who is helping out even if it is just logistical. It's a tough pc world out there and I would wager that their are even countries who are pitching forth what they can on a private scale. I have heard Rumsfield and Bush mention the Coalition forces by name a number of times on televison, the British, the Aussies, the Polish, even the Japenese as moral support.

It's all good.

joedoe
03-25-2003, 09:16 PM
BJ - wasn't having a go at you man. Just pointing out something I have noticed that kinda raised some questions in my mind.

Black Jack
03-25-2003, 09:20 PM
Joe-

No sweat bro, I agree with a lot of your thoughts.

Serpent
03-25-2003, 09:52 PM
So long as we're all agreed then.

;)

joedoe
03-25-2003, 10:37 PM
Fair enough. :)

joedoe
03-25-2003, 10:43 PM
Group hug :D

Serpent
03-25-2003, 10:49 PM
Bush could learn from us!

:)

joedoe
03-25-2003, 10:54 PM
Bush could learn from a monkey :D

Just kidding for all those Bush supporters :)

Serpent
03-25-2003, 11:00 PM
No, you're right. A squid could teach Bush a thing or two.

shaolin kungfu
03-25-2003, 11:06 PM
That would be funny. A squid teaching a retard.

dnc101
03-25-2003, 11:15 PM
Joe, I once put an add in the paper thanking all the business in town that supported our volunteer ambulance crew. I listed everyone, more than 20 businesses that contributed in some way. Everyone except the one business that contributed the most of everything. They had three employees who they let go from work whenever needed. They contributed more cash and materials than anyone. And I forgot to mention them! Their manager allways held some kind of officership in the association, and as EMS Coordinator, instructor and crewmember I worked with him on a regular basis. And I forgot. It wasn't that I didn't appreciate or value their service. I think that I just considered them so much part of the team that it didn't occur to me while writing the list. So don't read too much in the ommission. It could be a sort of a left handed compliment in that you are allways there. Sort of like my hand. I value it, but I don't ever think about it when I reach for a beer. Good on ya, guys!

joedoe
03-25-2003, 11:15 PM
LOL!!!!!!! :D I dunno why, but that is one of the funniest comebacks I have read in a while. I nearly fell off my chair.

I was gonna say a) GWB could learn something from amoeba, but it appears he already has. b) I don't know if GWB is smart enough to learn anything off a squid

:D :D :D

JennyLiuJKD
03-26-2003, 01:31 AM
i've only contributed to this board once or twice and that was a long time ago but i see there's been lots of comments and thoughts about the war. i've been expressing my opinions very loudly lately and so i thought maybe i could voice myself even more by adding my 2 cents on this board. firstly i admit i'm not knowledgeable in politics and i've heard all kinds of arguments back and forth between people who support the war and people who are anti-war. i'm not qualified to talk about history and political details but for what it is worth i think that if we have to fight then we shouldn't be afraid to. nobody wants to see soldiers and civilians die and everyone who has any concept of war knows that there will be human costs and that it is impossible to have a war that is not ugly or needlessly destructive in some way. but we enjoy such freedom and quality of life in america that it is definitely worth defending. i have many family, friends and acquaintances who had to struggle so that they could finally come here and become citizens and they know more than many people who were born here that life is much different in certain other areas in the world. of course life here is not perfect but its still very good comparatively and americans are generally speaking very good and moral people in a pretty civilized society. how can so many people in the world be so against america when victory means that we will be ridding the world of an evil dictator? maybe there are some reasons that we shouldn't be there and its not good for us to go against the U.N. opinion but at least something positive can happen as a result of the war. and we are not trying to conquer iraq. once hussein is gone we will stay until order is restored, which is our responsibility. but then we will leave iraq to be independent. as has been said, we are not there to conquer and that's why american troops are not even putting up the american flag in the places they have cleared of resistance. people seem to forget that in the first gulf war hussein attacked kuwait to conquer it. he is a murderous person who has no sympathy for his own people let alone anyone else and now the world seems to side with him instead of the united states. to me it just doesn't make sense.

i talked to someone who was demonstrating against the war near ucla and she said that she hopes our military fails in iraq because innocent lives are being caught in the crossfire. i really think we are doing everything we can to fight a war and avoid killing innocent people. and i could not believe that she hoped that our military would fail! if you say you want them to fail you basically say that you would rather see many of our troops die than see saddam hussein and his mercenary republican guard be thrown out of power. no matter how your political views are, the american troops are our neighbors, friends, and family members. how could any american wish for them to lose their lives? thats ridiculous. i know people who are fighting in iraq. one good friend of mine could have been accepted to many good universities after high school. he is a smart guy. but he felt that before going to college he wanted to challenge himself with something he could be proud of and become more mature and experienced. he wanted to do something good and serve his people and country. so instead of going into college right away he took a much harder and sacrificing route by joining the army. he is an infantry soldier and he is in iraq right now. i wish i knew the unit he was assigned to so that i could write him a letter. maybe i don't know much but i do know that a man like saddam hussein should not rule a country and i do know that people like my friend deserve my love and support. i take it very personally if an american girl says she wants him to fail.
i hope that the war will end soon so that no further death and violence will occur. i wonder if we could use special forces to take down hussein and his regime leaders. it seems that it would make things easier. in somalia i remember we wanted to get rid of the most brutal and powerful clan in the civil war going on there. we used special forces to try to locate and arrest or kill the clan leaders and unfortunately anyone who knows the true story told in black hawk down knows that we failed altho we came close. but i wonder if its possible in iraq. but anyway that is what i have to say about the whole thing. thanks for listening to me rant
:)

Liokault
03-26-2003, 02:24 AM
how can so many people in the world be so against america when victory means that we will be ridding the world of an evil dictator?

Lets see.

May be its because America countrys with HUGE oil reservs to remove the dictators from.........HMMMM altirior motive? How much did the USA benifit from afganistan? They benifited hugely and put in power people who were ex US related oil men.

Will north korea be next?

They have a evil dictator, they have weapons of mass destruction but how much oil do they have?

That is the real question.

Laughing Cow
03-26-2003, 04:29 AM
how can so many people in the world be so against america when victory means that we will be ridding the world of an evil dictator?

Hmm, could it possible be because he does not pose a threat to the rest of the world.
;)

Merryprankster
03-26-2003, 04:31 AM
May be its because America countrys with HUGE oil reservs to remove the dictators from.........HMMMM altirior motive?

If oil's the goal, why not Nigeria--easier sell, much more vested interest.

Crimson Phoenix
03-26-2003, 04:32 AM
Dnc, the graveyard thingie is once again major disinformation.

France is thinking about building another big airport. There are three putative locations, among which one is in Normandy. The commissions mentionned that if Normandy was chosen as the location, then the current blueprints and geographical data would mean the cemetary was overlapped (hence, the plans should be adjusted should Normandy be chosen). That's all that was said. And see how it was distorted??

This anti-French thing is going a bit too far. Usually, there's a crapload of distorted facts in media everywhere...Some because of lame journalists, others because of limited coverage time and vulgarization needs etc...but the problem is that with such a tensed political context, any distorted info (willingly or not) can have a LOT of unintended meaning and consequences...

Joedoe has it right. People who were there during WWII (who are accounting for most of the French population given the demographic curves) are all glad the US helped us. Every kid in school reads about it in the history books. We ARE glad, whether we were there or not during WWII. It has never ever been denied. But we also are a free country. And it is not because you saved us 60 years ago that we cannot voice our opinion as a free country. It's too bad most people see France's stance as a treachery...it's more complicated than "you're with us or against us"...anyway...

Budokan
03-26-2003, 09:25 AM
I can't understand the confusion on the Coalition as to why these Iraqi's are putting up more of a fight than the politicos thought. Of course they don't like Saddam, but they're fighting for their country.

Why are so many politicians surprised a man -- even one who lives under a dictator -- will fight for his country when it's invaded? Isn't that basic human nature?

PaulH
03-26-2003, 09:39 AM
Budokan,

While there are a few resistant people whose stakes are bound with Saddam's fate, the majority of Iraqi civilians wish the Allied troops to come to liberate them. They are a severely oppressed people who want us to bomb Saddam and kill him at whatever the cost. I know the feeling because I once wished and got very disappointed when the US ceased to bomb Hanoi and its communist parasites though I'm a Vietnamese in the 70's. There is no country if you live in slavery.

Regards,

Budokan
03-26-2003, 09:48 AM
I just wonder if the politicos overestimated the people's will to fight an invader. Again, I think it's simply human nature to want to protect your home country. You fight for your country more than to protect the guy who runs your country, whether he be benevolent or a monster like Saddam. We're innately wired to protect hearth and home.

However, you're right that the people in the south and the north have a higher percentage of the population who wants us there. But then they also want to break away and form their own countries. And that ain't gonna happen because the other countries in the Middle East don't want Iraq carved up. Oh, and neither do we for that matter. Another Yugoslavia in the Middle East is one thing no one wants.

Your own experience gives a poignant perspective, however. Thanks for sharing what must be a difficult time in your life.

PaulH
03-26-2003, 09:58 AM
Budokan,

Your kind reply and understanding is greatly appreciated by me.

Best wishes,

ZIM
03-26-2003, 10:32 AM
Still, you gotta update.

On Bush, The Coalition and The UN:
The Bush administration is preparing to announce a 'significant cut' in the dues it pays to the UN. It appears that the role of the UN in a postwar Iraq is what the Bush-Blair summitt will be about.

Uncensored Info on Iraq War from the Russian GRU (http://162.42.211.226/article2375.htm)

North Korea threatens Japan over spy satellite plans (http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-26mar2003-53.htm)

interesting historical stuff from TE Lawrence on the brit occupation of Iraq and what happened then (http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/mesopo.html) Might be relevant.

"Peoples of Egypt, you will be told that I have come to destroy your religion," said Napoleon as he entered Cairo. "Do not believe it! Reply that I have come to restore your rights!"" Maybe the french knew what they were talking about: stay out! :p

Last, if you play stocks or are interested in boycotts (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reuters20030325_465.html)

TjD
03-26-2003, 01:03 PM
seems the french want a lot to do with iraq, once all the dirty work is done by the coalition.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20030325/ap_on_re_mi_ea/war_france_rebuilding_iraq_2

red5angel
03-26-2003, 02:16 PM
What really cracks me up about this whole thing, is that if two other countries went to war, you wouldn't be hearing about it all over the world minute by minute. why is it that the world is so concerned about what the US is doing?

BeiTangLang
03-26-2003, 02:17 PM
Very typical.

ZIM
03-26-2003, 02:19 PM
What really cracks me up about this whole thing, is that if two other countries went to war, you wouldn't be hearing about it all over the world minute by minute. why is it that the world is so concerned about what the US is doing? We own the media *shrug*

Serpent
03-26-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by dnc101
Joe, I once put an add in the paper thanking all the business in town that supported our volunteer ambulance crew. I listed everyone, more than 20 businesses that contributed in some way. Everyone except the one business that contributed the most of everything. They had three employees who they let go from work whenever needed. They contributed more cash and materials than anyone. And I forgot to mention them! Their manager allways held some kind of officership in the association, and as EMS Coordinator, instructor and crewmember I worked with him on a regular basis. And I forgot. It wasn't that I didn't appreciate or value their service. I think that I just considered them so much part of the team that it didn't occur to me while writing the list. So don't read too much in the ommission. It could be a sort of a left handed compliment in that you are allways there. Sort of like my hand. I value it, but I don't ever think about it when I reach for a beer. Good on ya, guys!

Nice try, mate, but no one's buying that! ;)

joedoe
03-26-2003, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by dnc101
Joe, I once put an add in the paper thanking all the business in town that supported our volunteer ambulance crew. I listed everyone, more than 20 businesses that contributed in some way. Everyone except the one business that contributed the most of everything. They had three employees who they let go from work whenever needed. They contributed more cash and materials than anyone. And I forgot to mention them! Their manager allways held some kind of officership in the association, and as EMS Coordinator, instructor and crewmember I worked with him on a regular basis. And I forgot. It wasn't that I didn't appreciate or value their service. I think that I just considered them so much part of the team that it didn't occur to me while writing the list. So don't read too much in the ommission. It could be a sort of a left handed compliment in that you are allways there. Sort of like my hand. I value it, but I don't ever think about it when I reach for a beer. Good on ya, guys!

I guess you could see it that way, but I gotta be honest - I doubt it. Ultimately though it doesn't really matter. What matters to me is that it sounds liek our boys & girls are doing well over there and doing us proud and that is all that matters to me.

Serpent
03-26-2003, 04:57 PM
And there's a difference between forgetting once and regularly ommitting.

Stacey
03-26-2003, 05:02 PM
Yes, I would like to thank them for making Halliburton's profits sore.

Its good that the company doing major funding for the republican party is going to have the US government creating billions in work for them. They won the bid and they are a great company....after all until a few years ago **** Cheney was the CEO.

But I'm sure this has nothing to do with our intentions in Iraq.

My childhood friends are dying for a good reason. Iraqi children are being killed for freedom and justice. They will love us for killing their parents and liberating them. They won't turn into terrorists because we will give them a forced democracy.

Souljah
03-26-2003, 05:22 PM
D@mn Right!
And they'll Put out what theyre told to god D@mn it!

(D@mn Insubordinance!)

Laughing Cow
03-26-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by red5angel
What really cracks me up about this whole thing, is that if two other countries went to war, you wouldn't be hearing about it all over the world minute by minute. why is it that the world is so concerned about what the US is doing?

Could it be a John Wayne syndrome of wanting to see yourself in a heroic role in the media?

j/k

joedoe
03-26-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Souljah
D@mn Right!
And they'll Put out what theyre told to god D@mn it!

(D@mn Insubordinance!)

It is the home of the brave anf the free after all :D

PaulH
03-26-2003, 05:39 PM
Republican Guard: Iraq's crack fighting force (Middle-East Online)


They are considered by western military experts as elite force, notch above regular US Army, on par with Marines.


DOHA - The feared Republican Guard is Iraq's crack fighting force, an elite squad par excellence crammed full of the fittest, best-trained, best-equipped and most highly-motivated men in the country's army.

Coalition forces steaming towards Baghdad know that at least three divisions of this awesome army-within-an-army stand in their way before they can penetrate the gates of the Iraqi capital.

But the Americans have already sent their anti-tank Apache helicopters to work on bombarding the positions of the armoured Medina division, which are a major obstacle to their progress.

Russian-made T-72 tanks and an extremely dense and effective anti-aircraft defence system are the key weapons at the Guards' disposal, one of the reasons they are considered by western military experts as an elite force, a notch above the regular US Army and on a par with the Marines.

Nevertheless, the Republican Guard suffered heavy losses in the 1991 Gulf War and has never entirely been able to rebuild its strength or its artillery, let alone modernise, amid 12 years of international sanctions.

The force is composed of volunteers drawn from the serving army. But only Sunni Muslims need apply; Kurds and Shiites are generally not considered up to the task and are excluded.

The reward for acceptance to the Guard is access to a world of privilege, for this is the realm of the highest-paid career soldier with all manner of perks from a furnished apartment to a new car.

Set up by Saddam Hussein, initially as an elite presidential guard, the Republican Guard grew in strength throughout the war with Iran from 1980 to 1988, at its peak the ranks swelling to 150,000 men as a reliable alternative to the increasingly deficient regular army.

Independent of army command, it was the Republic Guard which carried out the invasion of Kuwait in 1990.

Considerably weakened by the last Gulf War, the Guard has been bolstered by the regime in recent years and handed the responsiblity of defending the capital.

With a fighting force of just 60,000 men, the Guard is made up of eight divisions, three of them armoured.

And they do not come any tougher than the Medina Division. "It is one of the best of the Republican Guard divisions, one of the most powerful," Major General Stanley A. McChrystal, vice-director of operations for the US Joint Staff, explained. "It is a lynchpin to the consistency of the Republican Guard defence."

The division has already come up against the American military when, in 1991, it stood its ground and fought instead of turning tail and running as many other Iraqi forces did - and at a cost of considerable losses.

It was on February 27, 1991, that the Second Brigade of the US First Armoured Division took less than an hour to destroy an impressive array of artillery which had lined up against it, including 61 tanks and 34 armoured cars belonging to the Medina Division.

According to the Pentagon, the division has now established a line of defence some 80 kilmoetres (50 miles) south of Baghdad, with a second line on the immediate outskirts of the capital, the Nida division to the east and the Hammurabi division to the west.

But according to the influential British publication, Jane's Defence Weekly, these divisions can only call on 500 artillery units, some 800 tanks and 1,100 armoured vehicles.

Saddam Hussein is said to be wary of allowing the Guard to be deployed widely throughout the country and has set up an inner circle, the Special Republican Guard, a force of 15,000 men charged with guarding his various palaces and the only regular military presence in the capital itself.

Serpent
03-26-2003, 05:40 PM
Nothing worth having is free. Didn't the Americans teach us that?

joedoe
03-26-2003, 05:41 PM
LOL!!!! :D Don't tell my fiance that (she is a seppo).

Budokan
03-26-2003, 05:41 PM
Joedoe, first of all Shrub -- as we like to call him over here -- couldn't find Australia on a map if his reelection depended on it.

However, I for one would like to thank from the bottom of my heart all the other countries who have troops in harms way.

But don't expect Shrub to waste his time doing the same. As far as he's concerned this is an Amercian action driven in part by his own fundamental belief system -- allies and their spilled blood need not apply.

But I thank you and pray for your guys and ours every night.

Serpent
03-26-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by joedoe
LOL!!!! :D Don't tell my fiance that (she is a seppo).

:D

Laughing Cow
03-26-2003, 05:46 PM
PaulH.

Another reason why many people support their oppressors is because it is a known evil and they learned to live with it.

Whereas regime change brings a lot of new and unknown factors to bear on their lives, without having any real guarantee of being better or an improvement.

Example:

I know that some blacks on South africa were OPPOSED to getting rid of Apartheid.
Why, for one all their utilities like Water, electricity, etc were covered by paying a nominal FIXED fee a month (like 30$).

After the got rid of Apartheid they had to pay like their white "oppressors" and thus their cost of living increased drastically, where as their salaries didn't.

Cheers.

Serpent
03-26-2003, 05:48 PM
Thanks Budokan. It's nice to know that at least some of you aren't victims of Shrub's rhetoric. (Shrub. LOL.)

joedoe
03-26-2003, 05:49 PM
Shrub - love it. But shouldn't it be Shrubya? :D

PaulH
03-26-2003, 06:00 PM
LC,

I agree with your general reasonings though the Iraqis seem to think otherwise:

> > "As US forces push deep into Iraq, farmers and remote villagers are > greeting > > them with white flags and waves. But the ground forces, backed by massive > > artillery and air support, are encountering pockets of resistance from > > Iraq's military. One man, about 30, yesterday ran from a field towards a > US > > convoy shouting insults about Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. Other men and > > boys stood in fields waving white flags. In keeping with the local Muslim > > custom, no girls or women appeared from their houses." > > Lindsay Murdoch in southern Iraq, The Sun-Herald, 3-23-2003
> > "....The return of the Americans to Safwan was also an occasion for hope, > > even if mixed with wariness. 'Saddam finished!' shouted another young > > [Iraqi] man, who gave his name as Fares. 'Americans are here now.' His > > friend, Shebah, added, in broken English, 'Saddam killed people.'" > > Washington Post, 3-23-03
> > "Coming into Basra as part of a massive military convoy, I encountered a > > stream of young men, dressed in what appeared to be Iraqi army uniforms, > > applauding the US marines as they swept past in tanks." > > BBC reporter, 3-22-03
> > "Ajami Saadoun Khlis, whose son and brother were executed under the Saddam > > regime, sobbed like a child on the shoulder of the Guardian's Egyptian > > translator. He mopped the tears but they kept coming. 'You just arrived,' > he > > said. 'You're late. What took you so long? God help you become victorious. > I > > want to say hello to Bush, to shake his hand. We came out of the grave.'" > > The Guadian, 3-22-03
> > "As hundreds of coalition troops swept in just after dawn, the heartache > of > > a town that felt the hardest edges of Saddam Hussein's rule seemed to > burst > > forth, with villagers running into the streets to celebrate in a kind of > > grim ecstasy, laughing and weeping in long guttural cries. > > "'Oooooo, peace be upon you, peace be upon you, peace you, oooooo,' Zahra > > Khafi, a 68-year-old mother of five, cried to a group of American and > > British visitors who came to the town shortly after Mr. Hussein's army > > appeared to melt away. 'I'm not afraid of Saddam anymore.'" > > New York Times, 3-22-03
> > "We've been driving since dawn today in southern Iraq, and so far we've > come > > across scores of Bedouin herdsmen. We've been greeted by friendly > greetings > > of 'inshallah' and 'salaam aleikum'...we've seen both women and men waving > > greetings and shouting greeting to the U.S. troops." > > Radio Free Europe correspondent Ron Synovitz, 3-21-03
> > "They told me that Saddam Hussein is not allowing anyone to leave Baghdad. > I > > don't fear the Americans. I was in Baghdad in the war in 1991 and I saw > how > > surgical an operation it was. Saddam Hussein has persecuted everyone > except > > his own family. Kurds, Arab Shiites, Turkoman - everybody has suffered. > But > > our country was a rich country and we can be rich again.'" > > Financial Times Information, 3-21-03
> > "These are US Marines being greeted if not with garlands, with hand shakes > > by residents of the town in the deep-south corner of Iraq." > > CBS News, 3-21-03
> > "One little boy, who had chocolate melted all over his face after a > soldier > > gave him some treats from his ration kit, kept pointing at the sky, saying > > 'Ameriki, Ameriki.'" > > Associated Press, 3-21-03
> > "Milling crowds of men and boys watched as the Marines attached ropes on > the > > front of their Jeeps to one portrait and then backed up, peeling the Iraqi > > leader's black-and-white metal image off a frame. Some locals briefly > joined > > Maj. David 'Bull' Gurfein in a new cheer. 'Iraqis! Iraqis! Iraqis!' > Gurfein > > yelled, pumping his fist in the air... > > "....A few men and boys ventured out, putting makeshift white flags on > their > > pickup trucks or waving white T-shirts out truck windows....'Americans > very > > good,' Ali Khemy said. 'Iraq wants to be free. Some chanted, 'Ameriki! > > Ameriki!' > > "Gurfein playfully traded pats with a disabled man and turned down a > dinner > > invitation from townspeople. 'Friend, friend,' he told them in Arabic > > learned in the first Gulf War. > > "'No Saddam Hussein!' one young man in headscarf told Gurfein. 'Bush!'" > > Associated Press, 3-21-03
> > "Iraqi citizens were shown 'tearing down a poster of Saddam Hussein' and > > Dexter Filkins of The New York Times was interviewed, saying that Iraqis > he > > had seen were 'hugging and kissing every American they could find.'" > > NBC Nightly News, 3-21-03
> > "Here was a chance to stop and I clambered down, eager to get a first word > > from an Iraqi of what he thought of this whole affair. 'As salaam alekum,' > I > > said in the traditional greeting, then ran out of Arabic and quickly > added, > > 'Do you speak English?' No go. But with a fumbled exchange of gestures we > > slowly managed to communicate. Thumbs up for the American tanks, thumbs > down > > for Saddam Hussein. Then he pointed north into the distance and said > > 'Baghdad.'" > > Reuters, 3-21-03
> > "A line of dancing Kurdish men, staring directly into the mouth of the > Iraqi > > guns less than a mile away, defiantly burned tires, sang traditional new > > years songs and chanted, 'Topple Saddam.' > > "March 21 is the Kurdish New Year....And bonfires have long been a symbol > of > > liberation in this part of the world. 'We're celebrating [Nawroz] a > national > > holiday,' said Samad Abdulla Rahim, 22. 'But today we also celebrate the > > attack on Saddam.' > > "Many expressed hope that deadly fire would light the night sky over > Baghdad > > in the days ahead, bringing an end to the Kurd's epic 30-year struggle > > against Hussein and his Baath Party. 'I can't wait for the U.S. planes to > > come and liberate Kirkuk,' said Shahab Ahmed Sherif, a 33-year-old Kurd > who > > had fled the oil-rich city four days earlier." > > Copley News Service, 3-21-03
> > Unidentified Iraqi man: "Help us live better than this life. Let us have > > freedom." > > ABC World News Tonight, 3-21-03 > >

Laughing Cow
03-26-2003, 06:06 PM
PaulH.

That is 1 of many articles I read, many other say that those cheerings are isolated and only in small numbers.

That many are too afraid to show open support as they fear a repeat of 1991 when the UN troops moved out and many of them were killed for supporting the foreign troops.

Also don't forget that this is the first and biggest wave of euphoria, ask those same people again in 6mnths to a year and many might have changed their tune.

Just my thoughts naturally.

PaulH
03-26-2003, 06:20 PM
Again, you may be right but can you deny the raw emotions that are sweeping across Iraq now from farmers to a taxicab drivers, the young and the old alike? I do believe that the torch of liberty has been lit and the Iraqi will carry it to the end of their land.

Laughing Cow
03-26-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by PaulH
Again, you may be right but can you deny the raw emotions that are sweeping across Iraq now from farmers to a taxicab drivers, the young and the old alike? I do believe that the torch of liberty has been lit and the Iraqi will carry it to the end of their land.

I can't deny it, but it is a flame that needs to be fed and nurtured well and careful.

Otherwise it can turn into a firestorm that does more damage than good.

Stumblefist:

I agree with what you wrote for a change.
;)

I guess they learned a lot in Afghanistan.

diego
03-26-2003, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Merryprankster


If oil's the goal, why not Nigeria--easier sell, much more vested interest.

isnt nigeria run by muslems?...i know they still have slave trades going on over their.

don't worry MP once bush gets hold of iraq gets abit of calm going in the muslem nations nigerias next;) :p :D :eek:

Design Sifu
03-26-2003, 06:30 PM
I just heard on the Radio that Jordan reported huge numbers of Iraqis who saught refuge from the 1st gulf war are returning to take up arms in defence of Iraq... weird weird weird

Mr Punch
03-27-2003, 02:34 AM
I'm not sure I speak on behalf of the British servicemen and women out there, but I'm guessing that most of them would wish Shrub and his adviser the squid were over there with them to personally offer support.

However for anyone wishing to do so by email please follow this link. (https://www.superletter.com/bfpo/bulletinboard.cfm)

Souljah
03-27-2003, 03:49 AM
Can't say I definately agree with that.....

Saddam is an evil dictator yes, but what will follow saddam?
The proposed "union" of the three main groups in Iraq.....Who will probably never get along with eachother.....This plan of a coalition has never really worked when outside forces impose it.

So I dont neccassarily agree because I see alot more bloodshed to come if this plan goes ahead.

dezhen2001
03-27-2003, 05:15 AM
souljah - agreed.

all the best intentions in the world wont help you control the country if you cant understand what caused the difference between sunni and shia. it happened in the first century after prophet Muhammed died so its been going on for a loooong time.

its the same as what happened in india under colonialism - oh lets take 2 different religious groups who have been warring for centuries and oppress them under a british regime. Look what happened?

dawood

Souljah
03-27-2003, 07:18 AM
"Can't say I definately agree with that....."


Hey it was a quick post what can I say...

:cool: :( :cool:

dnc101
03-27-2003, 07:30 AM
Mat, thanks for the link. I sent a message, for what ever it's worth.

Black Jack, thanks for the thread. I already sent one to the US troops, a friend had e-mailed me the link.

Joe, got one for the Ausies? I'll be happy to go on record as thanking them directly as well.

PaulH
03-27-2003, 08:31 AM
Saddam's Enforcers (CBS News)
NEW YORK, March 26, 2003


Mohammed Abdul Majid was a major in the Iraqi Army until he defected in 1991.


In the Middle East today – we’ve been asked not to say exactly where–Abdul Majid told how he helped set up the unit that eventually became the Fedayeen.“They use a lot of fear, and horror,” he says. “They scare the people. They are well trained. They are well trained in killing. I'm not sure if they are trained in battles, big battles--you know, like we train in the Army.”


They are, he says, trained for assassination. They are trained to kill opposition members. They are trained to scare people. Some of the Fedayeen, he says, were taken straight out of prisons to join the unit.


Mohammed Abdul Majeed told us he helped train a new elite military intelligence and special operations unit 13 years ago. It was modeled after the British SAS.


But when the unit came the attention of Saddam and his sons, they decided to turn it into their own private police force, their enforcers, the Fedayeen.


Their first job, three or four years ago, was to behead prostitutes and parade their remains in the streets of Baghdad and Basra. The public demonstration, Abdul Majeed says, was intended “to terrorize the people,” to tell them, “We are around you all the time. You can't even wink, you know? And this, this is fear.”


When they parade in Baghdad, the Fedayeen dress and strut like Ninja warriors. But in southern Iraq, they threw away these outfits to infiltrate the towns and cities, blending in with the population.


Former CIA analyst Dan Byman, currently a professor at Georgetown University, says there may be up to 50,000 Fedayeen.


“The Fedayeen are primarily comprised of, essentially, thugs drawn from the countryside who were recruited by Saddam's older son to join this unit,” Byman says, “acting as paramilitary forces to put down civilian revolts, not necessarily to fight large conventional battles.”


Their current civilian dress, Byman notes, also makes it easy for them to “strike more effectively as guerillas.”


They would regard the Geneva Convention as “a joke.” These rules of war, he says, “are something written by the strong. And these rules of war favor the United States, because they cannot compete on conventional combat, so therefore they should be disregarded because they won't work.”


In practice, says Mohammed Abdul Majid, the Fedayeen are “100 percent terrorists, as far as we Iraqis are concerned.”


With the start of the United States military action, they have blended in with other Iraqi militias and forces, fanning out all over Iraq. They are threatening to kill not only American soldiers but Iraqis, too.


There have been reports that Fadayeen are under orders to shoot any Iraqi soldier who threatens to surrender. Abdul Majid says they “will shoot soldiers, civilians, their own people, their own family members, in order to protect Saddam Hussein and his regime at the moment. Especially at this time.”


There are Fedayeen in Nasirayah, Abdul Majid says, and they are ready to kill anyone who tries to revolt against Saddam. The civilians, he says, “have nowhere to go to. They have to fight because there's somebody watching over them with a gun.”


They announced on an Al Jazeera broadcast, he says, "’We will kill the Americans, and kill everyone who would not kill Americans.’ And I thought, you know, that was a big message.”


In the desert sand storms outside Nasiriyah, the Fedayeen have disrupted the American battle plan and disoriented unit commanders like Colonel Curtis Potts from the Army’s Third Division. “The disturbing thing about these folks is their tactics,” Col. Potts says. “They are using Iraqi families as human shields, as you witnessed last night.”


He finds it hard to believe that the leader of a nation would do that to his people. “It angers me that this is what they have to do, but we’ll get through it,” Col. Potts says.


The Fedayeen surprised Col. Potts and other commanders by moving into southern Iraq. They were expected to stay in Baghdad to protect Saddam Hussein. Many of them come from Saddam’s own tribe. They are better paid than most regular soldiers, and they are fanatically loyal to the dictator and his sons.


There have been reports that Saddam trusts the Fadayin more than the Republican Guard.


Abdul Majid discounts that idea: “Saddam Hussein does not trust anyone. Saddam Hussein trusts only himself. But he always has units watching other units. You know, he has the Republican Guards. But he has the Special Republican Guards watching over the Republican Guards.”


Then he has the the Special Operators watching over the Special Republican Guards. And now, he has got the Fadayin Saddam watching over the Republican Guards and others.


This former Iraqi colonel suspects that Saddam–wherever he is now, and he is probably literally underground in a bunker—has ordered American POWs to be held close by. “Somewhere around--underneath the earth,” he says. “Ten stories underneath, probably, eight stories underneath. Somewhere around his headquarters. He'll keep them next to him.”


Much of the news coverage of the war so far overwhelmingly centers on the U.S. military engaging Republican Guard units, both regular Republican Guard and the so-called special Republican Guard. Is this a mistake? Should we refocus on the Fedayeen?


Former CIA analyst Daniel Byman says the Fedayeen “and, more broadly, other paramilitary forces, are probably the greatest long-term threat to coalition forces. The U.S. military and other coalition forces are exceptionally skilled at modern conventional war.”


But they are not as skilled, Byman says, in dealing with the Fedayeen. Their guerrilla tactics have already slowed down the American march on Baghdad.


Former Iraqi Army Colonel Abdul Majid thinks it would be a mistake to get sucked in by the Fedayeen. Keep moving, he says, don’t get distracted by the Fedayeen, keep moving to Baghdad.


If American military commanders were to ask him for advice on the best way to proceed from here, at the end of the first week, of the war, Abdul Majid would tell them this:


“Push towards Baghdad. Don't enter any cities. Just Baghdad. Go to the heart. Topple the regime. And then, the cities will definitely—once the regime is gone, the people will know that the regime is gone. I'm sure that the war will finish.”

Stranger
03-27-2003, 08:47 AM
I don't want to get in an argument here because I love Australia and the people (even though this forum indicates they are not pleased with Americans), and I appreciate their aid as a comrade in EVERY war we have been in the 20th & 21st centuries (WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, Iraqi Freedom).



I don't know what channels you are watching, but I hear about the presence of Aussie forces regularly.

In regard to the Aussie forces particularly, I suspect any lack of coverage is more for operational security than an oversight or lack of appreciation.

Like I said, I don't want to get into an argument over this. I always feel better when the Aussie military is on our side.

dnc101
03-27-2003, 08:52 AM
Paul H- outstanding posts! I said before this war started that we'd probably be hailed as liberators. Knowing what we did about Saddam, it didn't take any clarvoyance or even a lot of brains to see that. I also think, and sincerely hope, that the Iraqui people will flourish as a free people.

Cow, now don't choke on your cud- but you made some good points here. We didn't go in heavy handed and install a regime in Afganistan (not to be confused with our heavy hand in ousting the Taliban, which is still ongoing). I don't think we should, or will, in Iraq either. As I've said before, we'll see when it's over. And I think it will be good.

I'm really in a watch and wait, and hope for the best mode. I believe the war will progress well. But I hope that our, and our allies, casualties continue to be light. Saddam is a monster, and I expect that civilian and resistance fighters still under his control will take a heavy loss. But in terms of numbers, their losses now wil be less than in even a decade of his being in power. And in terms of freedom, no price can be put on that- even when paid in blood. The blood of courageous people has allways been the price of freedom, to earn it and maintain it. I have nothing but respect for the Allied forces and the Iraqui people who oppose Saddam. That includes a somewhat grudging respect for George Bush. I still have my problems with him, but he and Tony Blair have showed courage and leadership in their prosecution of this war. Just my opinion, as ever not humble in the least!

Royal Dragon
03-27-2003, 09:32 AM
N. Korea's next.
Then France.

Reply]
We should do France first. All we have to do is call them, and they will surrender. They are easy, get them out of the way first I say.

fa_jing
03-27-2003, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Budokan

However, you're right that the people in the south and the north have a higher percentage of the population who wants us there. But then they also want to break away and form their own countries. And that ain't gonna happen because the other countries in the Middle East don't want Iraq carved up. Oh, and neither do we for that matter. Another Yugoslavia in the Middle East is one thing no one wants.


Actually, I believe that the problem with Yugoslavia was that it was not carved up, instead it was artificially created and sustained initially by outside forces, as was the case with the birth of Iraq. Again in both cases, it is groups of people with long standing feuds against one another, united artificially by a dictator (remember Tito?) The country should be allowed to disassociate, as did Yugoslavia, as a way of reducing the amount of tension. It isn't good to artificially unite opposing groups, especially since one always ends up on top to the exclusion of the others. I would think that other Middle Eastern governments are opposing this not for the sake of the people, but because they want to maintain complete control over their own lands, through force. I am always in favor of granting independance and secession to the people who desire it.

In other words, East Timor splits from Indonesia = good
Estonia, Latvia, Belarus etc. split from Russia/USSR = good
Kashmir splits from India = good (not that I support terrorism)
Yugoslavia disassociates = good
West Bank and Gaza split from Israel = good (not that I support terrorism or compromising Israel's security)
Kurdistan splits from Turkey and Iraq and ? = good
Quebec splits from Canada = if they desire, good
New York City splits from US = what me worry?

PaulH
03-27-2003, 01:22 PM
Enemy tactics blend cruelty, cunning
By Sharon Schmickle -- McClatchy Newspapers
Last Updated 6:20 a.m. PST Thursday, March 27, 2003

CAMP VIPER, Iraq -- Marine Sgt. Steven Zakar said he saw boys about 7 years old armed with AK-47 rifles standing in front of Iraqi troops on the banks of the Euphrates River.

Marine Cpl. Stephen Hammond said he saw a hospital replete with fake patients and doctors used as a headquarters for Iraqi forces.


Three Iraqi prisoners of war said their officers shot them on suspicion they planned to desert. Other Iraqis told of shooting their officers in order to desert.


Eyewitnesses from the front lines -- Iraqis and Americans alike -- bitterly accuse President Saddam Hussein's forces of committing possible war crimes and human rights atrocities in order to maintain control -- of troops and civilians -- in south-central Iraq.


The response from those close to the firefights is outrage and a grim resolve to finish off Saddam's regime.


"Any war crime you can think of is happening," said Zakar, from Toms River, N.J. "They have no respect for human life, and in turn I have no respect for them. ... This is wrong."


Zakar and other observers gave their accounts while being treated in a tent emergency room run by Charlie Surgical Company's Shock Trauma Platoon 8.


The Iraqis consistently fight in civilian clothing, blending in with residents of the cities that have been hot spots in the war, many witnesses said.


"I have never seen an Iraqi fighter in uniform," said Marine Cpl. Stephen Hammond, 22, of Glendale, Ariz. He spent three days in fierce battle for control of bridges spanning the Euphrates River at the city of An Nasiriyah. He told his story from a bed in a surgical tent where he was treated Wednesday for a gunshot wound to his right leg.


Hammond caught the bullet during a battle for a low-rise, sand-colored building that was marked as a hospital. American forces watching the hospital had seen people come and go dressed as patients and medical staff, he said, but they had reason to suspect it was a military stronghold.


When Marines stormed the facility Tuesday and took control, he said, they found Iraqi military uniforms, documents giving American positions and other intelligence information.


Hammond takes offense at the deception. The Iraqis are killing Americans, he said, by violating internationally recognized rules of behavior in combat, such as restrictions on attacking civilians and hospitals.


"They tried to take advantage of our rules of engagement," Hammond said.


The rules bar attacks on civilians and on facilities such as hospitals. "They would put on civilian clothing and walk out of the hospital as if nothing was happening inside," Hammond said.


Meanwhile, three Iraqi prisoners of war who were treated for gunshot wounds this week said in separate interviews that their attackers were their own officers, said Lt. Kolan Wright, a physician who oversees the ward where the prisoners are recovering under Marine guard. Wright sat in on the translated interviews, he said.


The report jibes with a statement by at least one other wounded Iraqi prisoner who was captured elsewhere.


"It doesn't surprise me," said Lt. Cmdr. Ethan Bachrach, an emergency room physician and the officer in charge of the shock trauma platoon. "The rumor has been that the penalty for desertion in the Iraqi army is death."


There also have been unconfirmed reports, he said, that skilled professional officers were sent into the region to hold rag-tag bands of nonprofessional fighters in line.


Apparently the Iraqi troops fully understand the stakes. Zakar said that he helped guard and search three dozen Iraqis who surrendered.


"They said they killed almost all of their officers to get away and then walked two days across the desert to surrender," he said.


Zakar was treated Wednesday for wounds from a grenade in a hip and arm after a battle in An Nasiriyah, where he had been guarding the south side of a bridge spanning the Euphrates, a strategic point in U.S. plans to move supplies ****her north in Iraq.


On one occasion, he said, Iraqi forces assembled in front of a row of houses on the north side of the river and opened fire on the Marines.


Standing in front of the Iraqis was a boy who appeared to be about 7 years old brandishing an AK-47 rifle, Zakar said. He had seen other boys in similar positions, he said.


"They don't appear to know what they are doing with the weapons, but they have managed to fire them," he said.


Despite Iraqi attempts to intimidate civilians, Zakar said, some Iraqis have befriended U.S. troops.


"We were positioned near an area where there are farms," he said. "The farmers were very nice to us. They told us they were anti-Saddam. They would offer us tea every time they saw us. All they seemed to want to do is to work their land and be left alone."


Sharon Schmickle is a reporter for the Minneapolis Star Tribune.

ZIM
03-27-2003, 03:30 PM
March 26, 2003, 10:12PM

2 Christian organizations are ready to convert Iraqis

By MARK O'KEEFE
Newhouse Service
Two leading evangelical Christian missionary organizations say they have teams of workers poised to enter Iraq to address the physical and spiritual needs of a large Muslim population.

The Southern Baptist Convention, the country's largest Protestant denomination, and the Rev. Franklin Graham's Samaritan's Purse say workers are near the Iraq border in Jordan and are ready to go in as soon as it is safe.

The relief and missionary work is certain to be closely watched because both Graham and the Southern Baptist Convention have been at the heart of controversial evangelical denunciations of Islam, the world's second largest religion.

......
Richard Cizik, vice president for governmental affairs of the National Association of Evangelicals, is urging caution for the two groups, as well as other evangelical organizations planning to go into Iraq.

"Evangelicals need to be sensitive to the circumstances of this country and its people," said Cizik, based in Washington, D.C. "If we are perceived as opportunists we only hurt our cause. If this is seen as religious freedom for Iraq by way of gunboat diplomacy, is that helpful? I don't think so. If that's the perception, we lose."

Graham, the son of legendary evangelist Billy Graham, has been less diplomatic about Islam than his father has been.

Two months after the Sept. 11 attacks, Franklin Graham called Islam "a very evil and wicked religion" during an interview on NBC-TV In his book published last year, The Name, Graham wrote that "The God of Islam is not the God of the Christian faith." He went on to say that "the two are different as lightness and darkness."

On the eve of the Southern Baptist Convention in St. Louis last year, the Rev. Jerry Vines, a former denomination president, told several thousand delegates that Islam's Allah is not the same as the God worshipped by Christians. "And I will tell you Allah is not Jehovah, either. Jehovah's not going to turn you into a terrorist," Vines said.

.......

Bush, an evangelical Christian himself, has close ties to both Franklin Graham, who gave a prayer at his inauguration, and Southern Baptists, who are among his most loyal political supporters.

Isaacs, who works for Franklin Graham, refused to comment about his boss' views of Islam, except to say, "most of Franklin's work is to the Muslim world and those are sincere acts of love, concern and compassion."

In a written statement, Graham said: "As Christians, we love the Iraqi people, and we are poised and ready to help meet their needs. Our prayers are with the innocent families of Iraq, just as they are with our brave soldiers and leaders."

.......
As soon as they gain access to northern Iraq, teams will go, Kelly said, with plans of feeding up to 10,000 or more people a day.

"The hope is that as the war front moves and the situation in the outlying areas improves, we'll be able to send mobile teams in.

"Our understanding of relief ministries is that anytime you give a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus you've shared God's love in a real physical way. That also raises the question as to why you did that. When people ask you, you explain that it's because of the love of God that has been poured out into my life and I have a deep desire that you know that same love as well."

ZIM
03-27-2003, 03:43 PM
Anyone starting to think we're getting a replay of Somalia here?

Getting Saddam is pretty close in a goal sense to getting Aidid [sp?], when perhaps we should be getting evidence of WMDs to show the world, so as to vindicate the US/Coalition in the eyes of the world/garner support....also to rapidly do the humanitarian aid, as promised..... [which brings up the question of why did we explicitly include that promise? It didn't work for Somalia, either] and then there's the city fight to come.

There are different aspects, sure- less micromanaging from the president, which is good, but maybe more from the CIA which might not be good.

joedoe
03-27-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by ZIM
Anyone starting to think we're getting a replay of Somalia here?

Getting Saddam is pretty close in a goal sense to getting Aidid [sp?], when perhaps we should be getting evidence of WMDs to show the world, so as to vindicate the US/Coalition in the eyes of the world/garner support....also to rapidly do the humanitarian aid, as promised..... [which brings up the question of why did we explicitly include that promise? It didn't work for Somalia, either] and then there's the city fight to come.

There are different aspects, sure- less micromanaging from the president, which is good, but maybe more from the CIA which might not be good.

Blackhawk Down anyone?

Seriously, it will be hard to tell until the city fighting starts. Isn't there more firepower being brought to bear in Iraq than there was in Somalia though?

dnc101
03-27-2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by fa_jing
In other words, East Timor splits from Indonesia = good
Estonia, Latvia, Belarus etc. split from Russia/USSR = good
Kashmir splits from India = good (not that I support terrorism)
Yugoslavia disassociates = good
West Bank and Gaza split from Israel = good (not that I support terrorism or compromising Israel's security)
Kurdistan splits from Turkey and Iraq and ? = good
Quebec splits from Canada = if they desire, good
New York City splits from US = what me worry?

Confederacy splits from US= ?

I wondered where all the politics went. Just knew we hadn't discovered martial arts here! :)

As I said before , we'll soon see. Actually, with all the atrocities, mostly by Saddam to his own people, we're seeing now. But I think the best (or worst, really) is yet to come. Sad and disgusting, but we're right to take him out.

ZIM
03-27-2003, 04:09 PM
Seriously, it will be hard to tell until the city fighting starts. Isn't there more firepower being brought to bear in Iraq than there was in Somalia though? I don't know, haven't seen comparisons. I don't think thats the point tho: I was reading the latest GRU report (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2425.htm) and they're noting the length of the resupply lines:
"The extreme length of the resupply routes and the actions of the Iraqi reconnaissance units have created a new problem: the coalition command is forced to admit that it has no information about the conditions on the roads. Currently, as intercepted radio communications show, the coalition command is trying to establish the whereabouts of more than 500 of its troops that fell behind their units, departed with resupply convoys or were carrying out individual assignments. So far it was not possible to establish how many of these troops are dead, captured or have successfully reached other units."

Also, the Iraqis are sending a mechanized division southwards, last heard...

We charged in pretty fast, gotta regroup a bit. We're also sending in the 4th infantry [mechanized] soon, so.....

red5angel
03-27-2003, 04:35 PM
All I need to hear is that the Iraqis have been executing POW's and as far as I am concerned we can glass the whole fukking country.

PaulH
03-27-2003, 04:42 PM
Hi Guys,

Since we are all in this mother of all threads soup, I think this is an interesting development

Al-Qaeda fighting with Iraqis, British claim (Sydney Morning News)
March 28 2003, 9:41 AM




Near Basra, Iraq: British military interrogators claim captured Iraqi soldiers have told them that al-Qaeda terrorists are fighting on the side of Saddam Hussein's forces against allied troops near Basra.

At least a dozen members of Osama bin Laden's network are in the town of Az Zubayr where they are coordinating grenade and gun attacks on coalition positions, according to the Iraqi prisoners of war.

It was believed that last night (Thursday) British forces were preparing a military strike on the base where the al-Qaeda unit was understood to be holed up.

A senior British military source inside Iraq said: "The information we have received from PoWs today is that an al-Qaeda cell may be operating in Az Zubayr. There are possibly around a dozen of them and that is obviously a matter of concern to us."

If terrorists are found, it would be the first proof of a direct link between Saddam's regime and Osama bin Laden, the mastermind of the 11 September attacks on New York and Washington.

The connection would give credibility to the argument that Tony Blair used to justify war against Saddam - a "nightmare scenario" in which he might eventually pass weapons of mass destruction to terrorists.

On Wednesday Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, said the coalition had solid evidence that senior al-Qaeda operatives have visited Baghdad in the past.

Rumsfeld said Saddam had an "evolving" relationship with the terror network.

The presence of fanatical al-Qaeda terrorists would go some way to explaining the continued resistance to US and British forces in southern Iraq, an area dominated by Shi'ite Muslims traditionally hostile to

Saddam's regime.

Heavy fighting continued around the besieged city of Basra yesterday after British forces destroyed 14 Iraqi tanks which had struck out towards the Al Faw peninsula.

Military commanders have decided against launching an attack on Basra because of fears the operation would result in a Stalingrad-style street battle.

It is estimated the Iraqi military forces in the area have been reduced to 30 per cent fighting strength but have now embedded themselves within civilian buildings in the city.

Armed raids have destroyed transmitters and taken state radio and television off the air in Basra and effectively cutting off its communications with Baghdad.

British tanks from the 7th Armoured Brigade, the Desert Rats, could be sent into Basra if there is a sudden civilian uprising against Saddam's forces.

Last night, forces around the city heard loud explosions as coalition helicopter gunships were sent into the area.

PaulH
03-27-2003, 05:55 PM
Letter from Marine In Iraq 'To The Great City of Chicago'
From Chicago Area Marine Fighting In Iraq

POSTED: 9:39 a.m. CST March 25, 2003
UPDATED: 10:15 a.m. CST March 27, 2003

CHICAGO -- The following e-mail was sent to NBC5.com from Lance Cpl. Daniel Gomez, a U.S. Marine fighting the war in Iraq. Gomez is from Chicago and graduated from Lane Tech High School. After portions of his e-mail were read on air, many viewers wrote in and asked to see the whole text of the e-mail. Here it is.

To The Great City Of Chicago:

I just read your article on the Marine from Chicago that passed away in the helicopter crash, and I would like to tell you about another Marine from Chicago. My name is Daniel Gomez. I am 22 years old. I am a United States Marine.


I am currently overseas in Kuwait and Iraq helping fight this war. This letter is just to inform you that there is someone from the great city of Chicago out here and that we need all your support.

Post your response to LCPL Daniel Gomez' letter, and read responses from others
Video: Interview with Daniel's family

I was born and raised in the city of Chicago. I graduated from Lane Tech High High School in 1999. I lived on Racine Avenue and Taylor Street until April of 2000 when my parents, my siblings and I moved to 2400 Silvercreek Drive (I am the oldest of four).

However strange it may sound, I do not know my neighbors or anyone in my neighborhood. Why, you might ask? A few months later -- July 25, 2000 -- I shipped out to Marine Corps boot camp.

Since I've been in the Marine Corps, I have only been able to go home for about one week at a time. Once, I was only given 24 hours to go home for my little brother's 8th grade graduation. It might have only been 24 hours, but it was worth it. From March 10, 2001 to March 25, 2002 I was in Okinawa, Japan. I was with the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit (31st MEU). It was hard being away from my family and friends. But it was worse when I did get to come home, for it was for a funeral. My girlfriend had passed away. I wish I could have called her my fiancee, but I never got a chance to ask her to marry me. I was waiting to come home to ask her.

Right after, I was ordered to report to the 1st Force Service Support Group (1st FSSG) in Camp Pendleton, California. From April 2002 to January 2003, I was in Camp Pendleton preparing for our deployment. In late January 2003, my unit and I were finally in Kuwait.

Now that a lot of Marines are out here helping to liberate Iraq, we are hearing of many antiwar protests across the country. Just a few moments ago, I heard of one in downtown Chicago.

I understand a lot of Americans do not wish for war but unfortunately, it is needed. For instance, at first Saddam had stated that he did not have any missiles of mass destruction. But yet, for the past several nights, I have not gotten get much sleep because of missiles being launched at us -- some which contained unknown gases and chemicals.

We were fortunate to have practiced our drills over and over that we all made it safely to our bomb shelters in time. Now we (the U.S. troops) need our fellow American's support behind us.

We are all out here giving our lives for you all, so that you all may enjoy this great freedom that most take for granted. If you search deep down inside and still wish to protest, please do so, but do so peacefully.

I once read, "It is the Marine, not the reporter, that gives us the freedom of the press. It is the Marine, not the poet, that gives us the freedom of speech. It is the Marine who defends the protesters' right to burn the Flag. It is the Marine who salutes the Flag, who serves under the Flags, and whose coffin is covered by the Flag."

Is it not now time to demonstrate that we support our troops? Were it not for the brave, there would be no land of the free.

Just a few days ago, we had our first fallen American, a Marine. I pray we all come home safely. But I know that if I have to, I will give my life for this country and all it stands, and so will all the Marines that are out here with me. I also pray that we all return home soon, whether it is to San Diego, St. Louis, New York City, Franklin Park, Chicago or any other great city or town across the country.

But I am prepared to be here as long as I have to. My Staff Sergeant, Staff Sergeant Godfrey G. Marille who is also out here -- his wife just had a beautiful baby girl. He has yet to see her, but I bet he can't wait to finally hold her in his arms.

I know most of us won't be coming home to a hero's welcome. Nor are we asking for one. We don't consider ourselves heroes. We are only doing what is our duty to our country.

If I am fortunate to return to United States alive, once I am able to go home, I will try my best to get to know my neighbors and as much of my neighborhood as I can. Especially because I have seen a few who fly the Marine Corps Flag high and proud over their homes. And to them, I would like to say thank you.

Semper Fi,

Lance Corporal Gomez, Daniel
The World's Finest
United States Marine Corps

joedoe
03-27-2003, 09:13 PM
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/27/1048653806506.html

How true do you think this is? I am not trying to stir up trouble, I just want an opinion on how true some of these stories might be and whether it might be a source of concern for people.

Christopher M
03-27-2003, 09:24 PM
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/240

PaulH
03-27-2003, 11:20 PM
As coalition forces gain ground, Iraqi criticism of Saddam grows


By Laurie Goering, Chicago Tribune
European edition, Friday, March 28, 2003



AZ ZUBAYR, Iraq — In the first days after coalition forces rolled through this dusty mud-walled town just south of Basra, Saddam Hussein had plenty of friends. Young men waved posters with his face for the cameras. Small boys yelled "Saddam! Saddam!" The few that criticized the regime did so in nervous whispers.

Less than a week later, after a coalition raid netted the top Baath Party official in town for questioning and tanks took out some of the young men firing rocket-propelled grenades from the roadside, Saddam's public popularity is nose-diving.

"All Iraqis want to be rid of this regime. We just can't say that," said Jasser, a stout and serious older man in a blue robe who showed up at a coalition medical center Thursday looking for antacid tablets for his wife.

"Resistance is dangerous," he said. "When troops first came in they didn't demolish the party apparatus here, and that created problems. But now we feel more secure."

The process of winning Az-Zubayr is proving a lesson for coalition troops as they move toward bigger objectives such as Basra and eventually Baghdad. Surgical strikes, aimed at political leaders as well as military targets, are being combined with humanitarian aid to ease the two biggest worries for local Iraqis: that coalition forces are simply an occupying force and that they aren't serious about taking out Hussein's regime.

Iraqis "like to be on the right side, and finding out which is the right side is the hardest thing for them," said British Maj. Andy "Jock" Docherty, an Arabic-language translator working with troops of the Black Watch Regiment trying to pacify Az-Zubayr.

But military and humanitarian successes are slowly winning over southern Iraqis. Several key members of the ruling Baath Party have been found hanged in the region in recent days, Docherty said, and coalition forces hope successes in the south may fuel uprisings to the north.

"If we can crack a few nuts in Basra and Al Nasiriya, I think Baghdad could fall overnight with the right moves," Docherty predicted. If Iraqis are convinced the coalition is winning, they will attack the ruling party and "do the cleanup we can't and find the people we can't find."

From the highway passing through it, Az-Zubayr doesn't look like much. Mud-walled compounds pock the desert, and concrete buildings and bunkers — part of former Iraqi military installations — line the road. Outside town, women gather drinking water from stagnant roadside pools. At its center, Az-Zubayr is a warren of increasingly narrow streets, where young men in black robes with red-and-white-checked headscarves gather, sometimes with assault rifles in their arms.

Burned-out military trucks, hit by coalition airstrikes, sit on the edge of the main highway through town. But Iraqi militia members, now out of uniform, have fought back, firing rifles and rocket-propelled grenades at military vehicles passing through town. Even the red crosses painted on military ambulances bear bullet marks.

On Monday, British military officials in Az-Zubayr got word that a leading Baath Party official was organizing the resistance. Early Tuesday they went to get him.

At dawn they rammed tanks through the high wall surrounding the man's two-story house. As soldiers kicked open the front door, shots came from the building and a heavy firefight broke out. When it was over, 20 Iraqi fighters were dead or wounded, and the ruling-party leader was led away for interrogation.

"He was certainly surprised," said Maj. Dougie Hay, a Black Watch commander who led the raid. "It was a demonstration we could mount successful operations in the area and show them they are dealing with a highly capable force."

Coalition forces followed up with an assault on Iraqi soldiers holding a large military camp west of town. Under heavy fire, the remnants of the resistance fled or were killed, leaving behind hastily vacated buildings strewn with gas masks, military briefing books, boxes of grenades and lines of anti-aircraft guns hidden in hallways.

Since then, British troops passing through the town's narrow streets have come under limited fire and have in turn taken out men launching rocket-propelled grenades. Little by little, Az-Zubayr is coming under control.

That slowly building dominance, day by day, is changing the reception for coalition troops.

"It's obvious people have been intimidated by the militias," Hay said. Now "most of the locals have been very pleased to see us."

That was evident Thursday as British and U.S. soldiers held the town's first large-scale aid distribution outside the seized Iraqi military base. An attempt to hand out food Wednesday was aborted when a rocket-propelled grenade was fired at the base. But on Thursday women in black robes with blue crosses tattooed on their faces and clamoring young men and dusty children jostled to get their share of a container-load of bottled drinking water and food.

Tanks accompanied the trucks of supplies into the camp and then formed a defensive ring around the distribution site. Truckloads of armed men also sat ready, their guns pointed over the crowds. But the distribution, which lasted more than three hours, ended without incident. One female U.S. soldier even got a shy kiss on the cheek from a little Iraqi boy.

"We are afraid of Saddam's fighters. Things are better since you got here," Talia Sharfa, one black-robed woman in the crowd, told soldiers as she clutched her toddler daughter, Sara.

A few Iraqis, injured in the skirmishes of recent days, also limped into the base Thursday to visit an ambulance-sized coalition mobile hospital brought to the site for the day. Wounds were cleaned and antibiotics handed out; residents who arrived with chronic health problems also got treatment.

"There's been years here of not having appropriate treatment," said Capt. Sue Everington of the British general support medical regiment as she cleaned the ulcerated wound of a man whose foot was mangled in a 1986 car accident.

Residents said the humanitarian assistance was much appreciated, but decisive military action_like that in Az-Zubayr_was even more urgently needed.

U.S. forces "should bomb (the ruling party) wherever they are. Baghdad is the most important. When it's done everything will change," said Jasser, who agreed to an interview only out of the sight of others awaiting aid.

He asked the question everyone in southern Iraq asks: "Will the Iraqi regime remain or not?"

"If this coalition does not remove the regime, half of us will die," he said. "We will be killed just for talking to you. Saddam's eyes are all over here."

He pointed toward an area he said remained a Baath Party stronghold in town.

"The Iraqi regime kills civilians for going against it. If they even think you're against the regime they kill you," he said.

Military force, like the raids in Az-Zubayr, he said, is key to making sure that threat is erased for good in this town and others in Iraq.

"I suspect somebody will have to do more of those (raids)," agreed Sgt. John Hardy, a Scots Guards tank commander with the Black Watch. "That is what has worked."

Chang Style Novice
03-28-2003, 08:39 AM
Knife fight in a phone booth or Stalingrad in the sand? Salon magazine previews the likely Battle of Baghdad. (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/03/28/baghdad/index.html)

To access this article you will have to view an American Express ad, which will give you access to Salon Premium articles.

Chang Style Novice
03-28-2003, 08:56 AM
Also, does it seem to anyone else like we've been played like suckers into creating long, underdefended supply lines stretching through hostile territory? I just can't see anything good coming of that.

Chang Style Novice
03-28-2003, 10:10 AM
It's clear you didn't read the article before responding, Stumblefist, so let me just call you an idiot and be done with it.

What the hell does my toughness have to do with anything? Where did you get the idea that I'm anti-troops or pro-Saddam? Before the war was underway I thought it was a bad idea. Now that's it's on I want it fought and won as fast, smart and securely as possible (although I still harbor serious doubts that the long range outcome will be superior to leaving Saddam in power, bad as he is.)

The chickenhawks in charge (the only high-up in the Bush admin with any real military background is Colin Powell, and he's being frozen out) said this would be fast. Now they're saying it will go on as long as it goes on. Troops that were meant to be residual peacekeepers are being sent into the thick of battle. Everyone but those like me who were skeptical from the start seems surprised that the Baathists, Republican Guard, and so on are fighting back, and fighting dirty. The dirtier they fight, the tougher it will be to win by fighting clean. The dirtier we fight, the more innocent Iraqis we'll kill and consequently potentially turn against us.

War is hell and you don't go there without getting burnt, but you should put on some asbestos shorts anyway.

Chang Style Novice
03-28-2003, 12:27 PM
CSN, i would be an idiot to read any article that leads with an idiotic conclusion like that.

Conclusions go at the end. Premises go at the beginning, idiot.

You are one blissful ignoramus if you aren't interested in any viewpoint but your own. Welcome to the bozo filter.

ZIM
03-28-2003, 12:40 PM
Our 'allies' in country, i guess- a listing of iraqi opposition movements & sites (http://www.iraqfoundation.org/oppositions/index.html)

Anybody remember the BADR corps?
"It consists of thousands of fighters recomited from Iraqi refugees in Iran, Iraqi migrants and Iraqi military officers as well as soldiers from Iraqi army who defected during Iran- Iraq war. A new wave of fighters arrived in Iran after the popular uprising of March 1991 which was crushed by Saddam's regime.
The Badr corps consist of Infantry, Armoured, Artillery, Anti aircraft and commandos units. The training courses are supervised by Iraqi military officers and commanders who defected from Iraqi army." http://www.sciri.btinternet.co.uk/English/About_Us/Badr/badr.html

just info, in case you don't have enough yet.
:D

Chang Style Novice
03-28-2003, 01:18 PM
CSN, i don't think you're tough enough to handle a boy scout picnic.


In fact it is my opinion that when someone resorts to name calling they have lost an argument.

Niiiiiiiice...

dezhen2001
03-28-2003, 01:23 PM
interesting link - wonder if they were in control of iraq how close to "islam" their regime would be?

dawood

ZIM
03-28-2003, 01:37 PM
Nah, its just their home page, some info regarding where they came from, where they've been [Iran, training] etc. They seem [claim] to have a lot of secret cells within Iraq.

There's no guarantee that they'll be friendlies... one talking head @ the Iraq Nat'l congress was saying [in essence], "We've given our lives over to this, if you don't include us in the new Iraq, we'll fight you too...."

Laughing Cow
03-28-2003, 02:44 PM
Hi Dawood.

I got a question about Islam.

Yesterday I read a report about People in the middle-east watching the TV images of the dead US-Soldiers.

Apparently most of them were cheering the Iraqi troops, but turned their faces when they showed the manipulation of the dead bodies.

When asked why their reasoning was that since those people died they were on a different plane of existence and dead bodies are considered "untouchable" or similar.

Can you shed some more info on this aspect of Islam, or correct me if I understood things wrong.

Cheers.

dezhen2001
03-28-2003, 03:56 PM
hmmm... not too sure about that because if that was the case - how come the soldiers can touch and man-handle them?

to be honest i have no idea, as i dont really know anything about funeral rites and the like... ony what Quran says...

basically as far as i know, when u die, you go to the ground. Kinda like coz we are created from natural matter (Quran says like "dust") and and we are going back to the source... so basically in the gorund.

i know muslims dont believe in cremation or specifically certain things like autopsy and others that mess with the body. it should be natural.

Thats about it really, sorry... but i can try and find out :)

Also you have to remember there is 1400+ years of culture also mixed in with many peoples Islam... hence why there are so many differences where you go in the world - for example in India they still use a caste system which is not islamic and still dont eat beef which again is not islamic.

dawood

Laughing Cow
03-28-2003, 04:00 PM
Dawood.

Thanks, for the reply.

I know that muslims hold departed people in high respect and used a specific way of refering to them.

It was just interesting that a lot of Muslims said that some of the images went contrare to their beliefs.
Saying that dead Bodies need to be treated with respect, etc.

Cheers.

dezhen2001
03-28-2003, 04:17 PM
yup for sure - although many people disagree we think ALL life is to be treated with respect... after Muhammed died they use the term "Khalifa" for the people who came after in charge of the islamic community.

in Quran God also uses the word Khalifah... it means like an "inheritor" and also kinda like a "viceroy" charrged to look after something.

ie. why did Noah try as hard as he could to spread the message as well as gather all the animals up in to the Ark? God could surely have protected them all Himself... so why? The answer is because we are charged to look after this earth, quite simple really.

As far as what the soldiers did - i guess it gets more grey when uits the bodies of the dreaded "kuffar" or disbelievers huh? Though Islamic doctrine (Quran) tells us the exact opposite.

dawood

dezhen2001
03-28-2003, 05:55 PM
oops posted on wrong thread :D
**** no i havent its been merged - very confusing!

dawood

AndyM
03-28-2003, 06:50 PM
So what's everybody dying for?

Is it because someone in power says they should?

I can't see that this war is any better conducted/justified than those before.

Have we learned nothing?

******, we all have different beliefs, but no right to impose them on others.

The 'Double Standards' I see are staggering!

dezhen2001
03-28-2003, 06:55 PM
agreed - what the heck r u doing up so late? :D

dawood

ZIM
03-28-2003, 07:43 PM
The BADR corps was sort of mentioned by Rumsfeld this evening.. he mentioned that there's 'some activity' by opposition paramiltaries, "backed by Iran and who report to Iran, right up to the Revolutionary Guard" and he expressed that the US wants them to stay out of the conflict. No actions as yet are reported against Coalition forces, though.

Interesting soundbite: a Brit Air Marshal was talking about the post-war occupation, saying "we have lots of experience with this, as in [B]Belfast ." That was kinda ominous- not replayed *at all* in the US [we've practically got an Irish majority here].

dezhen2001
03-29-2003, 04:04 AM
pic1 (http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1048653885780_2003/03/29/gal10_brother,0.jpg)
pic2 (http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1048653885784_2003/03/29/gal10_basra.jpg)
pic 3 (http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1048653885782_2003/03/29/gal10_basrapool.jpg)
pic 4 (http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1048653885776_2003/03/29/gal10_morguechild,0.jpg)
pic 5 (http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1048653885764_2003/03/29/gal10_relativemorgue,1.jpg)
pic 6 (http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1048653885766_2003/03/29/gal10_relative,1.jpg)
pic 7 (http://www.smh.com.au/ftimages/2003/03/28/1048653837302.html)

:mad:

dawood

dezhen2001
03-29-2003, 04:42 AM
dude im not gonna start an argument with you,

later,
dawood

PaulH
03-29-2003, 10:27 AM
It seem the link doesn't work, so I have to cut and paste this article.

The Children of ’91 (ABC 20/20)
Young Survivors of First Gulf War Recall Bombing of Baghdad



March 28
— In an effort to learn what it's like to live in a besieged Baghdad, ABCNEWS' Barbara Walters sat down with five survivors of the bombing in the last Gulf War. Young adults now, they were children when American bombs rained from the sky in 1991. They tell her what they experienced, and what children currently in the Iraqi capital will probably be facing.





It's impossible to imagine what it's like to be a child in Iraq today. Children feel the horrors of war acutely. Its devastating effects shatter young lives.
But this group of Iraqis does not have to imagine — they lived through it themselves, in Baghdad during 1991's Gulf War. For Saleh, Amer and his sister Maha, Ban and her husband Mohammed, this new war brings back agonizing memories.


Mohammed, now 23 years old, was just 11 when the American bombers arrived.

"I remember it was at 2:30 a.m. on the 17th of January when the first bomb fell on Baghdad," he told Walters for ABCNEWS 2020. "We all went downstairs underneath the stairs because they're made with bricks. So at least we have a chance to be dug out alive if anything happened to the house."

He added: "I remember it was really scary, the house was shaking. Everybody was just going crazy. … And you have this mixed feeling: Am I going to be next to die?"

Over 43 days and nights, hundreds of bombs fell on Baghdad. Amer was 13 and says he was unafraid.

"I used to count the bombs that dropped. I used to go and tell everyone, 'Oh, today they dropped seven bombs,' " he said. "You went to sleep every night thinking, 'Tomorrow, I am either going to be free, or I am going to be dead.' "

His sister Maha, now a medical doctor, was 15. "I remember very well that my father said, 'Don't panic, we don't even have to go to the shelter,' " she said. "And actually, we stood behind the windows, watching the cruise missiles hitting the Ministry of Defense, across the river from us."

‘Always Having to Worry About Tomorrow’

The children of Baghdad had more to fear than missile strikes. For months, there was no running water or electricity. Far more civilians died from the effect of these deprivations than from bombings.

"And when you look at your past and you realize that you can't remember your childhood or your teenage years," says Maha. "I've been an adult since [as long] I can remember, always having to worry about tomorrow."

After the allied forces liberated Kuwait, tens of thousands of Iraqis rose up against Saddam Hussein, encouraged by the allied coalition's success. But the Americans abandoned Iraq without advancing on Baghdad. Saddam crushed the uprising. At least 30,000 civilians died in the bloodbath that followed, and Iraqis still feel betrayed by the United States.

"We lost faith," recalled Maha. "Iraqis used to walk like zombies. I mean, you should have seen the look on their faces. People forgot about the war, forgot about that the houses that were ruined."

But Maha says that pales in comparison to what Saddam is doing to Iraqis. "Each Iraqi wakes up in the morning, [wondering] if this is my day. 'Am I going to be killed because I looked in the wrong direction? Because I happened to stand in somebody's way?' Iraqis don't have to do anything to die."



‘Your Entire Family’s Fate in Your Hands’

In Saddam Hussein's Iraq, fear is a daily part of life, and it begins early. Schoolchildren are trained to show love for their leader. The indoctrination begins at a young age, and parents warn their children that even mild expressions of discontent could draw brutal punishment.

"We had to carry this responsibility with us since we were young," said Mohammed. "You were a kid, but you were responsible. You know that your entire family's fate lies in your hands."

Amer and Maha know firsthand what happens to those who criticize the leadership in Iraq. Their father, who held an official position, wrote two letters criticizing Saddam Hussein.

"My father believed in speaking the truth," said Amer. "He believed in telling everyone what the right thing is."

Their father was later assassinated on a journey between Jordan and Iraq in 1992.

"I lost my father, not because he did anything wrong. Just because he said what was going on in Iraq was a disgrace," said Maha. "And I remember very well asking him, 'Dad, how come he doesn't kill you?' He said, 'I don't know. I might get killed. But I have to speak, because I'm not one of the sheeps.' "

Amer said that after their father's assassination, he knew the regime would soon turn its attention to him.

"I'm my father's oldest son," he said. "And they have the policy if they kill your father, they either offer you a position in the government, to make you part of the team. And then you will [be] part of them, part of their tyranny. Or they kill you. So instead of facing that decision, I was, I just had to leave."

‘Why Can’t Democracy Work for Us?’

Now bombs are falling on Baghdad again. Watching from half a world away, these young people hope that this time, the outcome of the war will be different.

"When I saw that, I felt tears in my eyes," said Amer. "But for the first time, they were the tears of joy. Because every Iraqi has been waiting for that moment for a long, long time. I am almost a quarter of a century old, and I've been waiting for this day. … I was happy. He is going to be gone."

Maha thinks Iraqis are ready to overthrow tyranny forever. "I think the moment the Iraqis realize that Saddam is powerless [has come], and they're not going to be let down again," she said. "They will rebel. Definitely. This is the way that they've been waiting for."

As to the prospects for establishing a democratic government in Iraq, Amer said: "I think it's condescending of people to say that democracy can't work in Iraq." Amer said Iraqis living in exile will be ready to help build demoracy in the their homeland.

"There are about 4 million Iraqis who have lived all over the world in democratic and free societies," he said. "And each and every one of them is prepared at a moment's notice, to drop everything and go back."

A Message to Iraqi Youth

And what do these young people want others in Iraq like them, or even younger, to know?

"I want them to know that we hope that one day Iraq will be liberated, and that one day Saddam will be out," said Ban. "And we support them and we will help them, and we stand by them. "

Amer said it's time to speak out against Saddam's regime, no matter what the risk. "I want to tell my relatives, I know this is difficult for them to see it. I know we're putting them in jeopardy, but someone has to speak out," he said. "Maybe I'm in danger, maybe they're in danger. But we're all doing it so that maybe a week from now we will all be free to say whatever we want. "

"I want to tell them that all Iraqis outside are praying with them, and our heart's with them," concluded Maha. "And we feel their fear, and hope. And we hope to see them soon, in good health. And we miss them a lot."

Christopher M
03-29-2003, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
:mad:

Never forget:

(warning: some could be deemed graphic)

http://www.cool.mb.ca/~kakel/graphics2/halabja4.gif
http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/images/si/halabja1.jpg
http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/images/si/Halabja2.jpg
http://cbw.sipri.se/images/intro/halabja-c.jpg
http://www.mundoarabe.org/halabja.jpg
http://www.kurdishobserver.com/2000/03/17/halabja.jpg
http://www.kdp.pp.se/halh1.jpg
http://www.kdp.pp.se/hal.jpg
http://www.krds.net/images/kurd50.jpg
http://www.kdp-ankara.org.tr/img/13.jpg

dezhen2001
03-29-2003, 01:35 PM
hey man, i condemn that too - why do u think i posted those images?

why do you think i did the :mad: face? im not in some p|ssing contest baout who killed the most people.

dawood

Christopher M
03-29-2003, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
im not in some p|ssing contest baout who killed the most people.

No, but the US is.

ZIM
03-29-2003, 03:11 PM
Kind of a slow day, news wise...

Activists have released a program for organized DOS attacks (http://epidemic.ws/antimafia/index.php)

belgium amends law to avoid war crimes lawsuit against bush (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030326/wl_mideast_afp/iraq_us_belgium_law_1) which is good, i guess. ;) :confused:

I've been avidly watching the coverage, and I've got to say that Faux news is completely clueless and misleading. They keep showing Iraqis with the 'thumbs up' thing.... you can't tell me they don't know what that MEANS in Iraq, can you? What do they think we "R", morans?? :p

Anti-war, but good tune. (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2429.htm)

Last: i'm glad to see that discussions of Islam have NOT been largely lumped gratuitously into this thread... that'd be offensive, IMO.

dezhen2001
03-29-2003, 03:17 PM
should maybe have warned that some of those images Christopher M posted were slightly of a strong nature incase any youngsters are on here :)

Zim: agreed.

the interesting thing is that every article that is supporting the US by the iraqi people, i have read ones that dont as well. propaganda is interesting huh?

dawood

ZIM
03-29-2003, 06:44 PM
for armchair generals (http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/maneuvers.php3)

You might have fun with this- guessing and second-guessing what the next move will be.

AndyM
03-29-2003, 08:41 PM
Could you American 'Allies' please point your weapons at the enemy rather than the British troops please?

There's millions of them, and only 40,000 or so of us, so it can't be that hard can it?

I mean....you do want our help yes?

If this seems too complex.......we're the ones with uniforms and pale skin like yours. No Turbans, Yashmaks or dodgy moustaches!

:rolleyes:

jun_erh
03-30-2003, 12:33 PM
http://www.viceland.com/issues/v10n2/htdocs/saddam.php

ZIM
03-30-2003, 12:53 PM
Don't know if any of you know about this group. (http://www.newamericancentury.org/index.html) They're the PNAC and have the President's ear- it's kind of the web equivalent to 'Mein Kampf' [apologies for the Nazi ref. tho! I mean that it outlines the current US version of lebensraum]. Give it a look, note the dates of the various letters and plans, etc. You might notice that US policy follows this pretty closely.

War's still kind of bogged down... regrouping for the next wave!

Kristoffer
03-30-2003, 01:24 PM
this sound false. legit?

PaulH
03-31-2003, 01:15 PM
Once again I apologize for not being able to find the link of this article.

Iraqi Deserter Tells of Desperation

By BRIAN MURPHY .c The Associated Press

KALAK, Iraq (AP) - The soldier covered his face and wept.

It was a deep, sudden sobbing he couldn't control. His shoulders heaved. Tears wet the frayed cuffs of his green Iraqi army sweater.

He cried because he was alive. He cried because his family may think he's dead. He cried for his country. He cried because - for him - the war was over.

``I'm so sorry. Excuse me. I just can't stop,'' wept the soldier who fled Saddam Hussein's army and was taken Monday into the hands of U.S.-allied Iraqi Kurdish fighters. ``Could this terrible time be over soon? Please, tell me.''

The soldier - part of a front-line unit - was among at least 18 Iraqi deserters who staggered into the Kurdish town of Kalak as U.S. warplanes stepped up airstrikes on Iraqi positions near the Kurds' autonomous region. He agreed to share his story, but with conditions: no details about him or his military service could be revealed. Call him Ali.

He feared Saddam loyalists could retaliate against his family. They may have already, he said.

``The army knows I ran away. They could come and take revenge,'' he said in the central police barracks in Kalak, about 20 miles northwest of the Kurdish administrative center Irbil. ``My only hope is that I'm not alone. There are so many deserters and those who want to run. They cannot attack all these families with a war going on.''

War for this foot soldier was one of desperation. ``We only prayed we'd stay alive long enough to get a chance to escape,'' Ali said through an interpreter.

His unit - about 30 men - slept in muddy burrows on a hillside, he said. Breakfast was tea and crusty bread. At midday: rice and a single cucumber to share between two soldiers. There was no dinner.

His commanders described the war as an American grab for Iraqi oil. He couldn't contradict them - there were no radios or chances to call home. Occasionally they would receive copies of the Iraqi military newspaper. One issue featured a poem with the lines: ``The enemy will tire, and Saddam will remain.''

``We knew nothing. We were told only that America was trying to take over Iraq,'' Ali said. ``But we are not so stupid. We know how Saddam rules the country. We know in our hearts we'd be better off without him.''

Ali was drafted just after the 1991 Gulf War. He remained in the military because his family depended on the small military pay. Anyway, there were few choices for ex-soldiers whose formal education ended in the fourth grade. There were no jobs at home. Ali claimed he would never seek the favors of Saddam's ruling Baath party.

``I don't see Saddam as a hero anymore,'' Ali said.

U.S. bombs killed at least five members of his unit. About the same number were wounded, he said. ``There is no medical help,'' he added. ``They are left to die.''

``The spirit of the soldiers is very low,'' he said. ``We were not really mad at the Americans. We just want to save our lives.''

He and four other soldiers decided to run. But they had to pick their moment. Their unit and most others include Baathist agents given orders to execute any deserters, he said.

``But we decided it was either die from an American bomb or be killed by our own people,'' he said. ``It was better to run and take our chances.''

On Wednesday evening, in a torrential rainstorm, they made their break. They raced over the treeless pastures into Kurdish territory. The next morning, they asked a goat herder to direct them to Kalak. Then they panicked.

``We thought he would hand us over to the Iraqi army for some reward,'' Ali said.

They arrived at the edge of Kalak on Friday. They could see the Iraqi positions on the ridge just across the Great Zab River, running high and dirt brown after the downpours. And they waited.

They worried Kurdish militiamen would open fire if they simply walked into town. Until dawn Monday, they survived on wild greens and weighed their choices. They finally decided to fashion a surrender flag from an undershirt.

A half hour later, they were gulping hot tea and smoking cigarettes. Kurdish officials hunted for new clothes. Ali still wore what passed for a uniform: green camouflage pants, boots, a military sweater, a wool turban and a ragged nylon jacket dotted with cigarette burns.

Kurdish authorities decline to say precisely how many Iraqi military deserters have crossed over. Modest estimates range from several hundred to nearly 500. But they clearly expect more. Kurds plan a camp for at least 6,000 deserters and possible Iraqi POWs.

Massoud Barzani, leader of the Kurdish Democratic Party whose territory includes Kalak, said ``no comment'' when asked if U.S. officials in the Kurdish zone would question deserters.

``I can say now what I always felt: Saddam led to this war,'' Ali said. ``We don't want to fight America. We don't want to fight for Saddam. We just want an end to all this.''

A top Kurdish official, Hoshiar Zebari, predicted a collision course for two powerful forces in Iraq: the ordinary troops and the defenders of the regime.

``It's highly possible there could be confrontations between the regular army and the paramilitary who are terrorizing the people,'' Zebari told reporters.

Ali agreed. No one dares to speak out against Saddam while Baath party forces still have footholds, he said.

``The people know that any uprising against Saddam now would mean terrible things to them and their family. They force them to chant `Down with America,' but not everyone means it. Saddam's people are afraid for the future.''

That's when he started to cry. Moments later came the thud of a U.S. bomb hitting the ridge just across the river.

dezhen2001
03-31-2003, 03:14 PM
Here are some interesting Islamic articles i found... maybe MerryP and Zim could find these interesting... if not oh wells :)

article1 (http://65.39.144.73/ISLAM/ahm/recapturing.htm )
article 2 (http://65.39.144.73/ISLAM/ahm/TradorExtrad.htm )

dawood

jun_erh
03-31-2003, 06:03 PM
I can't tell

Design Sifu
03-31-2003, 06:59 PM
Good articles D,

I appreciated 'em!!!

joedoe
03-31-2003, 09:22 PM
You know stumblefist, I don't know if it is your sense of humour or not, but I am finding I am more and more that your posts are getting very offensive. So I have decided that you can say hello to everyone else on my ignore list. :)

dezhen2001
04-01-2003, 01:56 AM
stumblefist: dont know why you have any aggro against me dude - do u think im laughing at this war in iraq? do u think i really want to see ANYONE die? do you think i feel happy knowing that my best friends cousin was forcefully made to join saddams army and they will probably never see him again? do you think i find it funny that another friends brother was killed in front of his family (who was only 8 years old btw)? Do you think i feel happy knowing yet ANOTHER friends auntie was killed during the US bombing and her children are now orphaned? DO YOU?

Did you actually look at those articles? If so you would see that they were denouncing terrorism and extremist ideas. Of course, they are not perfect and are part based on one persons opinion on things he maybe does not know about 100%, but yet the knoweledge of islam it shows is something learned and studied (and traditional). The article is not perfect - but its a step in the right direction.

dawood

dezhen2001
04-01-2003, 03:11 AM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20030401/wl_mideast_afp/us_war_iraq_checkpoint&e=1

dawood

dezhen2001
04-01-2003, 04:00 AM
jeez man... think u had too much caffeine or something :rolleyes:

like i said, you can rant, insult and foam at the mouth at me all you want - i have no problem. It just helps me understand why discussion with some people is pointless.

Not that it matters but i used to respect you as a poster.

Not that it matters what you say now because it doesnt change the fact of what is happening. Saying "i told u so" doesnt change anything - hindsight is very rose tinted. it just shows your prejudice.

so man, go for it! get it out your system or go jack off or something. i hope that whatever has happened or is wrong that it gets better soon :)

peace,
dawood

jon
04-01-2003, 04:07 AM
Stumblefist

So why are *you* not over there fighting and helping then?

dezhen2001
04-01-2003, 04:29 AM
hey jon - havent seen you here for ages - hope you are well and all is good :)

dawood

Xebsball
04-01-2003, 07:50 AM
The beautifull country of the stars and the stripes helped finance the military dictatorships in Latin America, now claiming to be the great force to bring freedoom to those under dictatorships regime is pretty lame propaganda, i dont even know how you get caught up with that shyte.

VERITAS VOS LIBERABIT
:D

dezhen2001
04-01-2003, 08:12 AM
gee, i love you too :D
(not u Xebs, sorry dude)

dawood

Xebsball
04-01-2003, 09:12 AM
So... how many did you kill?

Tell me... how many...



M U R D E R E R!!


M
U
R
D
E
R
E
R
!

Black Jack
04-01-2003, 09:49 AM
Is is for real?

ZIM
04-01-2003, 09:49 AM
Sic semper tyrannis. :rolleyes:

of course nobody's ever protested. (http://www.amnesty.org/)

Nobody's ever pointed out anything-just ignored it all (http://web.amnesty.org/web/links.nsf/nonAIsites!OpenView)

Dezhen- liked the second link better. :) thanks.

one for you- interesting question! (http://www.dailykos.com/archives/002212.html)

Xebsball
04-01-2003, 10:15 AM
are you one of them?

Merryprankster
04-01-2003, 10:18 AM
Kung Lek, please lock or delete this thread. It's pretty ****ty, even if done as a joke. The men and women who kill in combat rarely feel wonderful about it.

Badger
04-01-2003, 10:26 AM
The Military saves lives by exterminating the vermin who murder, rape & torture.

To try to stop our military you are attempting murder.

Liokault
04-01-2003, 10:39 AM
The Military saves lives by exterminating the vermin who murder, rape & torture.

They do this by raping, torture and um murder right?

Black Jack
04-01-2003, 10:43 AM
This thread should be deleted before more idiots come out to play.

dezhen2001
04-01-2003, 10:52 AM
Zim: sorry i wouldnt have ANY idea on that! i dont know anything about politics or what a government has to deal with :eek: But i agree that its going to be something difficult, so i hope all goes well :)

dawood

Badger
04-01-2003, 10:56 AM
Well it's nice to see the idiots showing what they are.

Perhaps they could tell a soldier how they feel without the security of their keyboard.

Design Sifu
04-01-2003, 11:11 AM
confirmed civilian casualties are at a minimum of 493 or max of 652 today...


. . . t r a g i c . . .

Black Jack
04-01-2003, 11:17 AM
Design-

Where did you get that data from?

Design Sifu
04-01-2003, 11:23 AM
I came accross Iraq Body Count .net (http://iraqbodycount.net/) who seem to have quite a comprehensive method (http://iraqbodycount.net/background.htm#methods) for compiling data on casulties.

haven't found another source with such a broad pool of data gathering.... please let me know if you've come accross such a source.

Black Jack
04-01-2003, 11:36 AM
I see they have a "broad" view of resources to pull from but I don't believe it can be called entirely realistic or relable. It all comes from pulling third party sources and one would have to have faith in those third party sources and believe these third party sources have no agenda or no mis-reporting issues.

Look at some of their sources, AL Bawana, Middle East-Online, Pakistan Daily Times, Jordan Times, the Guardian to name a few.

I honestly think the answer is at this time unknown. You can not tally up such a total without prejudence on the subject, which this site seems to clearly have, and to REVIEW each story case-by-case from a variety of viewpoints.

Xebsball
04-01-2003, 12:06 PM
hey first of all my thread got moved into this one, now its all a mess.

Liokault said exactly what i was about to say :cool:

MerryP you from the "land of the free" and trying to shut down my protest, where did the "freedoom speech blah blah" go now?
Think im hurting some poor soldiers? Ask the family of the people they killed how they feel about AND THEN you will see whos really hurt and offended.
You pull the trigger because YOU WANT TO. Specially in USA since your soldiers are voluntary.
Soldier = Governament Aproved Murderer

yeah im the rock on your shoe!
REALITY -> KILLING IS KILLING
MURDERERS!!
M U R D E R E R S ! !

ZIM
04-01-2003, 12:07 PM
Where's the Marine and Army body count? in the arab news websites. The USA has a policy not to report these figures.

There was a thread noting that you could send messages to the troops, but a complaint there was nothing for the UK and Ozzy forces. Found them!

for UK troops (http://www.bfpo.org.uk/)

for ozzy troops:
messagetothetroops@defence.gov.au

Design Sifu
04-01-2003, 12:21 PM
you seem to have missed mentioning the other sources that site pulls data from...


ABC - ABC News (USA)
AFP - Agence France-Presse
AP - Associated Press
AWST - Aviation Week and Space Technology
Al Jaz - Al Jazeera network
BBC - British Broadcasting Corporation
BG - Boston Globe
Balt. Sun - The Baltimore Sun
CT - Chicago Tribune
CO - Commondreams.org
CSM - Christian Science Monitor
DPA - Deutsche Presse-Agentur
FOX - Fox News
GUA - The Guardian (London)
HRW - Human Rights Watch
HT - Hindustan Times
ICRC - International Committ of the Red Cross
IND - The Independent (London)
IO - Intellnet.org
JT - Jordan Times
LAT - Los Angeles Times
MEN - Middle East Newsline
MEO - Middle East Online
MER - Middle East Report
MH - Miami Herald
NT - Nando Times
NYT - New York Times
Reuters - (includes Reuters Alertnet)
SABC - South African Broadcasting Corporation
SMH - Sydney Morning Herald
Sg.News - The Singapore News
Tel- The Telegraph (London)
Times - The Times (London)
TOI - Times of India
TS - Toronto Star
UPI - United Press International
WNN - World News Network
WP - Washington Post

like I said, it seems to pull from a broader pool than any other source. Please feel free to point me to any other data sources.
US military body count.
UK military body count
etc . . .

As for entirely realistic or relable... it's hard to say what would be in such a situation as this.
Didn't someone say something about truth being the 1st Casualty of War?

I'm curious why one wouldn't want to include info along these lines while "informing" their opinion?

Black Jack
04-01-2003, 12:30 PM
I agree it is hard to say what would be entirely reliable in this case because you just don't know, its to big a broad specturm of data that can be misrepresented.

Even more so when said site has an agenda.

Kinda like Fedayeen guerillas playing civilan dress up. It gives a lot of room for exaggerated lamentations on the part of the doves or doom prophets.

David Jamieson
04-01-2003, 12:31 PM
please ease up on the invectives and personal attacks.

I have had to delete a couple of your posts now for those very reasons and the fact I am receiving complaints.

I know you have more to say that is relevant besides a thrashing diatribe and personal insults.

cheers

PaulH
04-01-2003, 12:43 PM
I admit I am touched by this letter. Here it is for your perusal pleasure relevant to the media coverage situation now.


This is a letter sent by Capt Winters, Detachment Commander, United States Marines to the Family and Friends of Marines serving in our War on Iraq, Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Subject: News from Operation Iraqi Freedom...

Friends and Family:

Ironically, America seems to know more about what's going on in the war on terrorism than the people fighting it. Seems like CNN's coverage of the war in Iraq has become the next big step in reality television. Please take what you see on TV with a grain of salt. There is a sensationalism with the kind of coverage you are seeing that will blow things out of proportion and make you think exactly what they want you to think. The reason I address this is that some of those with access to the secret-level internet (called SIPR-net, "sipper net") have found a link to a streaming video feed of CNN, brought to us by the Armed Forces Radio and Television Networks. I saw a press conference in which reporters were asking a General about the supply line situation, and if Soldiers and Marines at the front were getting the food and water they needed to survive. I can assure you that the Officers and Staff that are charged with the safety and care of America's sons and daughters will not let these young men and women go without if the issue can be helped. Here at our location, we have more than enough food and water, and the appropriate support to sustain ourselves. It's not five star treatment, that's for sure, but it is enough to provide us with that small degree of happiness and comfort that keeps a happy heart. These are tough times, and although the ground war has been successful up to this point, uncertainty lies ahead. Please use caution when translating journalistic sensationalism into what is actually happening to us out here.

Your Marines are performing to a level that no one expected. This command has been a crucial factor in the shaping of the battlefield. When you watch aircraft dropping bombs on targets in southern Iraq, that aircraft most likely got those targets from us. "We decide who flies the friendly skies" has always been my motto in this business, but we've started to take that fight to the enemy on the ground, with great successes. On all levels, from controllers to maintainers and support personnel, your Marines continue to endeavor to support the grunts at the front line and bring an end to this conflict. When the "war is over," will we arrive home the next day, no. There will remain a requirement to keep forces here to clean up pockets of resistance and bring order to this country. You're asking yourself it that means us.....I honestly don't know. When we do know, I'll be sure and let you know, but we could be here for a while. Understand that planning for sustainment is going on as we speak, but much of that has to do with how well we do on the battlefield. I know you miss us at home, and at the command level, we will do everything in our power to ensure the speedy and safe return of the Marines to you and the rest of your family. Believe me, when it comes to getting back home, rank really doesn't matter--everyone wants to finish the job and come home.

I leave you with a little philosophical note. Every man, woman and child who lives in the United States is entitled to the rights and priviledges of a citizen. Whether you like it or not, they can fly the flag, burn the flag, or wear the flag on their arm; the law does not prohibit any of that. A citizen holds these rights with no requirement to do anything for those liberties, they exist because a group of very smart politicians in a time of great chaos identified the inalienable rights of each man and woman, creating the most incredible communique of liberty ever imagined. However, when a man or woman lays his or her life across that same document in the defense of the freedoms outlined therein, that individual earns the right to call themselves a patriot. Whether it's taking blood pressure or taking enemy fire, every American who places their lives in harms' way to secure the liberties Americans enjoy every day joins an elite few. Their stories sound alike, despite all the technology and war fighting improvements. The tales of "Joe from Philly and Phil from Oregon" will endure forever, as will the tales of hard times. Where, you may ask, am I going with all this? I am positive that every recipient of this email is asking themselves what they can do for us over here. Mail is slow because of the focus on the front, email is limited, and phones are non-existent. However, there is something that you can do to support the effort. Fly your flag high, take a walk on a nice day, open your car windows and sing your favorite song as loud as you can....take advantage of the freedoms that your nation's sons and daughters are fighting to sustain. Nothing huge...I'm not asking anyone to take up bungee jumping, but enjoying the little things that make us truly free. Just to know that things are going well at home, that America is still the land of the Free and the Brave, is a powerful thing. Like fear, which drives one to accomplish things never before imagined or achieved, pride is a driving force that instills courage and determination to its bearer, allowing them to press forward and do great things.

Thank you for all your emails in response to these little newsletters. It is great to know that you are getting these and that they help. Please don't thank me, I am just doing my job. I care for each of the Marines in this Detachment like they were my own children, and my job is more instinctual than cerebral. Morale is high, and that's due to an outstanding Staff taking care of our Marines. We are well, and we are proud to serve.

Respectfully,

Capt Winters

Detachment Commander

ZIM
04-01-2003, 12:44 PM
France Replaces America as a Superpower
"You can't hide anything from us!" declared the intrepid reporter, "Tell us the truth!"

"Stop yelling at me!" cried Rumsfeld, slouching behind the podium.

"Admit you hadn't planned for resistance and your war is a failure!" the reported demanded.

"You can't make me," Rumsfeld muttered, now almost completely hiding behind the podium. "Dr. Rice, please save me."

"No," Condoleezza Rice answered as she walked in front of the press, "I've now taken a political position more consistent with my race and gender thus becoming a liberal democratic, a savior of humanity. And I want to announce that this war is evil and a Zionist plot! In fact, ever member of this administration including the president himself is secretly Jewish!"

"Oy vey! Our secret is out!" Rumsfeld exclaimed, "but it doesn't matter how ingenious you reporters all are, you can't stop our war now that it's started."

"But I can!" shouted a voice from the rear as the doors to the room burst open. In strode a hulk of a man, his clothing barely concealing his rippling muscles.

"Oh, it's Michael Moore!" swooned a female reporter, "The protector of truth and justice in this world... and I can't help but remark how great his hygiene is!"

"After my reasoned speech at the Academy Awards, support for this war has crumbled," Moore declared in a booming voice. "It has also embolden the Iraqis to fight against the U.S. imperialism, and now your troops flee."

"Don't hurt me Michael Moore!" Rumsfeld pleaded as he tried to run. He was stopped at the door by none other than Jacque Chirac and Saddam Hussein.

"America is over as a superpower!" Chirac declared, "But France and Iraq have joined together to form a new superpower - Friaqi!"

"And you are under arrest for attacking, me, a democratically elected leader in your greedy pursuit of oil," Saddam said as he handcuffed Rumsfeld.

"And all Americans are in trouble for their crudeness!" Chirac yelled, "Except for a few of your wisest, such as the paragon of virtue, Michael Moore. And your democracy will be replaced with a much better system where France tell you what to do and think!"

"And new dress code!" Saddam added, "Everyone must wear a beret and grow a bushy mustache!"

"And now the world will have peace at last," Chirac announced, "For all conflicts will be solved with endless debate. Now, as a first order of business, lets ship all those troublesome Jews in Israel into the sea and give the land to the peaceful Palestinians!"

"Hip hip hooray!" cried the reporters, ushering in this new era of peace and Frenchiness.

Whats that you say?? (http://www.vodkapundit.com/archives/huh.jpg)

Design Sifu
04-01-2003, 01:22 PM
that's absolutely lovely...

was that a Cspan transcript or the script making it way around Bollywood producer offices?

ZIM
04-01-2003, 01:41 PM
DS-
nope. from a blog, maybe vodkapundit, can't remember now... if you get a chance, check with samizdata.net, too. Love those blogs.

interesting slant from the ARRSE.co.uk forum... a member was saying that SH would not use chem/bio weapons. Reason? He has the moral high ground in the eyes of the world right now, so why spoil it with an attack of that nature? To keep the boys safe, just say "go saddam!" I guess... ;) What do you thinkk of that kind of reasoning... ?

Design Sifu
04-01-2003, 02:24 PM
"Sorry but sh*t happens" just won't do...

British troops are getting fed up with 'blue on blue' fire by the trigger happy 'cowboys' in the USAF.

There does not seem to be anything about this in the US media and some threads on US forums are noting that. I have a problem with the way this incident has been handled and responded to by the US audience. Most apologies are suffixed with mumble mumble "fog of war", "fighting conditions", "it's war, **** happens" mumble, mumble. And then there is the abusive variety of commenters or warbloggers who will assault anyone suggesting that the US military is anything short of orgasmic. Most 'attacks' on British frustration with FF by the US reach the same level of intelligence the media have about Iraq. And that's pretty low.

Given the absence of the debate in the US media (and I do not care how many official channel it has to go through before the various spokepersons are allowed to comment), I checked the situation on a military forum which was linked on ARRSE (Army Rumour Service). Here are a few comments that put the point better than I could:

To our US collegues. I have served many times with the US but one thing you lack is your ability to look at how you do things. You think its your way or the highway! Do not take this as an insult but you do have a terrible history of blue on blue and it needs addressing. My dad was in Korea as a Brit Soldier he said that the Brits were terrified of US Artillery. An old Sgt Maj of mine who is Australian said that his unit also lost more to US "friendly" fire than enemy during Vietnam.

Again in GW1, more Brits lost to US forces than Iraqi, then the Canadians in Afghanistan, now its happening again! My dad is genuinely more concerned about me being hit by US Forces than Iraqi when I deploy as are most of the UK public about our servicemen. These occurences can change public opinion and the consequences of this can be terrible. What gets us is that you appear to just say "Fog of war" or something similar, which just *****es us of even more.

PS - when I go, I will be the one with the giant UK flag flying above my head

I'll have to read more...

on Saddam's chem/bio weapons:
I've heard folks mention that he wouldn't go that route unless he was corners and facing "certain death"

It may be that he doesn't have any worth using...
The quest for a smoking Gun and all that still goes on.

Moral Highground is a whole other matter. I don't think there's ANY such place at this point in history.

While there's obviously support for the Iraqi people's plight. And disatisfaction with the BUSH/Blair method I haven't seen ANY indication of Saddam having a moral highground. Would welcome seeing that arguement layed out.

On the otherhand:
While troops are in Iraq doing there duty the question of morality falls deeply into situational relativity. However the old boys sitting behind their desks at home seem to be loosing any grip they might have had on Moral highground themselves. The credibility of "saving the Iraqi people" slips (a little or alot depending on your politics) with each case of "colateral damage."
I'll assume you've heard reports of the van full of people that was machinegunned (was that lastnight?) at the same checkpoint that was subject to the tragidy of a suicide bomber.
Maybe they where jumpy.
Maybe the driver ignored a signal to stop.
Maybe someone misdirected the warning shot.
or
Maybe the guy on the trigger was looking for payback.

I'm not in a position to say which would be "more" moral than another, who could? Either way, it's a regrettable situation for everyone involved.
Only Saddam, Osama and a few other nutjobs could see it as benifitial. I'll mourn for everyone if this sort of "morally ambigious" situation becomes a more frequent occurance.

Design Sifu
04-01-2003, 03:44 PM
Claims and counter claims made during the media war over Iraq (http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqandthemedia/story/0,12823,921649,00.html)

PaulH
04-01-2003, 04:03 PM
Text of Slain Soldier's Last Letter Home
Tue Apr 1, 2:42 PM ET

By The Associated Press

The last letter written by Army Pfc. Diego Fernando Rincon, 19, of Conyers, Ga., to his mother. It is dated Feb. 22 and received March 22. Rincon was killed in Iraq (news - web sites) in a suicide bombing attack Saturday:

Hola Mother,


How are you doing? Good I hope. I'm doing OK I guess. I won't be able to write anymore starting the 28th of this month. We are moving out. We are already packed and ready to move to a tactical Alpha-Alpha (in Iraq). Once that happens, there will not be any mail sent out. We will only receive mail that is less than 12 ounces. At least that's what they said. I'm not sure where exactly we're going be at yet, but it is said to be a 20-hour drive in the Bradleys.


So I guess the time has finally come for us to see what we are made of, who will crack when the stress level rises and who will be calm all the way through it. Only time will tell. We are at the peak of our training and it's time to put it to the test.


I just want to tell everybody how much you all mean to me and how much I love you all. Mother, I love you so much! I'm not going to give up! I'm living my life one day at a time, sitting here picturing home with a small tear in my eyes, spending time with my brothers who will hold my life in their hands.


I try not to think of what may happen in the future, but I can't stand seeing it in my eyes. There's going to be murders, funerals and tears rolling down everybody's eyes. But the only thing I can say is, keep my head up and try to keep the faith and pray for better days. All this will pass. I believe God has a path for me. Whether I make it or not, it's all part of the plan. It can't be changed, only completed.


Mother will be the last word I'll say. Your face will be the last picture that goes through my eyes. I'm not trying to scare you, but it's reality. The time is here to see the plan laid out. And hopefully, I'll be at home in it. I don't know what I'm talking about or why I'm writing it down. Maybe I just want someone to know what goes through my head. It's probably good not keeping it all inside.


I just hope that you're proud of what I'm doing and have faith in my decisions. I will try hard and not give up. I just want to say sorry for anything I have ever done wrong. And I'm doing it all for you mom. I love you.


P.S. Very Important Document.


Your son,


Diego Rincon

Laughing Cow
04-01-2003, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Design Sifu
Claims and counter claims made during the media war over Iraq (http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqandthemedia/story/0,12823,921649,00.html)

Thanks for the link, interesting site.

Design Sifu
04-01-2003, 04:39 PM
Man, that's just plain tragic...

19 years old...

I had only begun to live when I was 19 touring Africa doing releaf work with the red cross etc...

This kid's life is Done... and for what? really. I got some ideas about "what" but certainly nothing solid enough to demand someone's life.

Heard news of a Californian Marine who also was killed. He married his pregnant girlfriend like a week before he shipped out now she's a widow waiting to give birth to a fatherless child.

In war, nobody wins.

Laughing Cow
04-01-2003, 04:43 PM
Nassiriya Citizens Afraid to Rise Against Saddam (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20030401/wl_nm/iraq_nassiriya_people_dc)


"They only want to get rid of the regime, no matter who gets rid of it -- whether America, Britain, anybody. But most of them cannot believe America will continue doing that."


An elderly man, who refused to give his name but spoke some English, said Nassiriya residents did not want to be under the control of either Saddam or of the Americans. "We want a president coming for us from the Shia people," he said.


"Our message to the people of Nassiriya is a simple one...Help us hunt down the regime's cowardly criminals that hide behind the good citizens of Nassiriya and you will be rewarded with a wealth of support from us," he said.

Laughing Cow
04-01-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Design Sifu
In war, nobody wins.

Ain't that the truth.

People might proclaim themselves a victor but in truth it is only losses on both sides.

Here is a definition of being a winner:
"Having made fewer mistakes and taken fewer casualties than your opponent.

Cheers.

ZIM
04-02-2003, 07:06 AM
In war, nobody wins. Can't agree with this statement, LC & DS. There are 'Just Wars' IMHO. This is not to say there are wars where *everybody* wins, though.


yeah im the rock on your shoe!
REALITY -> KILLING IS KILLING
MURDERERS!!
M U R D E R E R S ! !
Xebby, I wanted to take some time before I responded to your comments... here it is: personally, I'd both spit in your eye and buy you a beer. At the end of it all, I'd hope you realize that if you, yourself are not a murderer, then you have connived at it yourself through your surrogates, and THRIVED on it. Thats not an easy thing to bear, but you must face that squarely.

Next time you decide to spit on your fellow man, even in jest, take that into account.
"Here's to you, as good as you are
Here's to me, as bad as I am
But as good as you are, and as bad as I am
I'm as good as you are, as bad as I am"

Cheers.

Crimson Phoenix
04-02-2003, 07:35 AM
ZIM, the "just war" of one is the "injust war" of the guy on the other side...and conversely
I'm sure Hitler was convinced his war was just...

uhhhh...in case you want to spit and buy me a beer for that comment, no probs, just don't spit in the beer man ;)

ZIM
04-02-2003, 07:55 AM
the "just war" of one is the "injust war" of the guy on the other side...and conversely Oh, yah, completely agree with that! Wine for you!

That, BTW, is the crux of the problem, no? J'accuse, monsieur!! ;) Just kiddin' ya... if we, as humanity, could possibly get past it, war might even be solved. Then we'd get over-populated and invent it again....

Design Sifu
04-02-2003, 10:42 AM
Phoenix beat me to the reply on "just war"

But dispite weither a war is Just or not... is the war on drugs just? considering the costs can it really be said that some participant dose NOT lose in some way on some level even if a victor is announced?

IMO war's a loose loose situation.

Yeah there are spoils to be gained by a victor.

& Yes there will be one side that will loose more than another.

But no matter what's gained from "defeating" Iraqi oppostion, it will not offset the loss of brave young Americans like Diego Rincon. We've already lost more than we as a nation can hope to gain from this conflict.

Civilian Bodycount today:
min. 569
max.725

PaulH
04-02-2003, 11:13 AM
I thought I should share a brief excerp from this article on the current ongoing topic written a battle-scarred European reporter

THOUGHTS ON THE EVE OF BATTLE WITH IRAQ
by Oriana Fallaci
The Wall Street Journal
Thursday, March 13, 2003


To avoid the dilemma of whether this war should take place or not, to overcome the reservations and the reluctance and the doubts that still lacerate me, I often say to myself: "How good if the Iraqis would get free of Saddam Hussein by themselves. How good if they would execute him and hang up his body by the feet, as in 1945 we Italians did with Mussolini." But it does not help. Or it helps in one way only. The Italians, in fact, could get free of Mussolini because in 1945 the Allies had conquered almost four-fifths of Italy. In other words, because the Second World War had taken place - a war without which we would have kept Mussolini (and Hitler) forever - a war during which the allies had pitilessly bombed us and we had died like mosquitoes. The Allies, too. At Salerno, at Anzio, at Cassino. Along the road from Rome to Florence, then on the terrible Gothic Line. In less than two years, 45,806 dead among the Americans and 17,500 among the English, the Canadians, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the South Africans, the Indians, the Brazilians. And also the French who had chosen DeGaulle, also the Italians who had chosen the Fifth or the Eighth Army. (Can anybody guess how many cemeteries of Allied soldiers there are in Italy? More than sixty. And the largest, the most crowded, are the American ones. At Nettuno, 10,950 graves. At Falciani, near Florence, 5,811. Each time I pass in front of it and see that lake of crosses, I shiver with grief and gratitude.) There was also a National Liberation Front, in Italy, a Resistance that the Allies supplied with weapons and ammunition. As in spite of my tender age (14), I was involved in the matter, I remember well the American plane that, braving anti-aircraft fire, parachuted those supplies to Tuscany. To be exact, onto Mount Giovi where one night they air-dropped commandos with the task of activating a short-wave network named Radio Cora. Ten smiling Americans who spoke very good Italian and who three months later were captured by the SS, tortured, and executed with a Florentine partisan girl: Anna Maria Enriquez-Agnoletti.

Thus, the dilemma remains. It remains for the reasons I will try to state. And the first one is that, contrary to the pacifists who never yell against Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden and only yell against George W. Bush and Tony Blair, (but in their Rome march they also yelled against me and raised posters wishing that I'd blow up with the next shuttle, I'm told), I know war very well. I know what it means to live in terror, to run under air strikes and cannonades, to see people killed and houses destroyed, to starve and dream of a piece of bread, to miss even a glass of drinking water. And (which is worse) to be or to feel responsible for someone else's death. I know it because I belong to the Second World War generation and because, as a member of the Resistance, I was myself a soldier. I also know it because for a good deal of my life I have been a war correspondent. Beginning with Vietnam, I have experienced horrors that those who see war only through TV or the movies where blood is tomato ketchup don't even imagine. As a consequence, I hate it as the pacifists in bad or good faith never will. I loathe it. Every book I have written overflows with that loathing, and I cannot bear the sight of guns. At the same time, however, I don't accept the principle, or should I say the slogan, that "All wars are unjust, illegitimate." The war against Hitler and Mussolini and Hirohito was just, was legitimate. The Risorgimento wars that my ancestors fought against the invaders of Italy were just, were legitimate. And so was the war of independence that Americans fought against Britain. So are the wars (or revolutions) which happen to regain dignity, freedom. I do not believe in vile acquittals, phony appeasements, easy forgiveness. Even less, in the exploitation or the blackmail of the word Peace. When peace stands for surrender, fear, loss of dignity and freedom, it is no longer peace. It's suicide.

Design Sifu
04-02-2003, 12:01 PM
poignant article...

interesting that he didn't go near stating weither the Iraqi invasion was Just or unjust...

PaulH
04-02-2003, 12:14 PM
DS,

I am posting the last part of the article that she wrote per your request. It's too long to post its entirely. Sorry, I have no link to this article.

Regards,



The third reason is the wrong way in which the promise has materialized. Let's admit it: from September 11 until last summer, all the stress was put on bin Laden, on al Qaeda, on Afghanistan. Saddam and Iraq were practically ignored. Only when it became clear that bin Laden was in good health, that the solemn commitment to take him dead or alive had failed, were we reminded that Saddam existed too. That he was not a gentle soul, that he cut the tongues and ears of his adversaries, that he killed children in front of their parents, that he decapitated women then displayed their heads in the streets, that he kept his prisoners in cells as small as coffins, that he made his biological or chemical experiments on them too. That he had connections with al Qaeda and supported terrorism, that he rewarded the families of Palestinian kamikazes at the rate of $25,000 each. That he had never disarmed, never given up his arsenal of deadly weapons,thus the U.N. should send back the inspectors, and let's be serious: if seventy years ago the ineffective League of Nations had sent its inspectors to Germany, do you think that Hitler would have shown them Peenemunde where Von Braun was manufacturing V2s? Do you think that Hitler would have disclosed the camps of Auschwitz, of Mauthausen, Buchenwald, Dachau? Yet the inspection comedy resumed, with such intensity that the role of prima donna passed from bin Laden to Saddam, and the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the engineer of September 11, was greeted almost with indifference. A comedy marked by the double games of the inspectors and the conflicting strategies of Mr. Bush who on the one hand asked the Security Council for permission to use force and on the other sent his troops to the front. In less than two months, a quarter of a million troops. With the British and Australians, 310,000.

And all this without realizing that his enemies (but I should say the enemies of the West) are not only in Baghdad. They are also in Europe. They are in Paris where the mellifluous [smooth talking] Jacques Chirac does not [care at all] for peace but plans to satisfy his vanity with the Nobel Peace Prize. Where there is no wish to remove Saddam Hussein because Saddam Hussein means the oil that the French companies pump from Iraqi wells. And where (forgetting a little flaw named Petain) France chases its Napoleonic desire to dominate the European Union, to establish its hegemony over it. They are in Berlin, where the party of the mediocre Gerhard Schroder won the elections by comparing Mr. Bush to Hitler, where American flags are soiled with the swastika, and where, in the dream of playing the masters again, Germans go arm-in-arm with the French. They are in Rome where the communists left by the door and re-entered through the window like the birds of the Hitch**** movie. And where, pestering the world with his ecumenism, his pietism, his Thirdworldism, Pope Wojtyla receives Tariq Aziz as a dove or a martyr who is about to be eaten by lions. (Then he sends him to Assisi where the friars escort him to the tomb of St. Francis.) In the other European countries, it is more or less the same. In Europe your enemies are everywhere, Mr. Bush. What you quietly call "differences of opinion" are in reality pure hate. Because in Europe pacifism is synonymous with anti-Americanism, sir, and accompanied by the most sinister revival of anti-Semitism the anti-Americanism triumphs as much as in the Islamic world. Haven't your ambassadors informed you? Europe is no longer Europe. It is a province of Islam, as Spain and Portugal were at the time of the Moors. It hosts almost 16 million Muslim immigrants and teems with mullahs, imams, mosques, burqas, chadors. It lodges thousands of Islamic terrorists whom governments don't know how to identify and control. People are afraid, and in waving the flag of pacifism - pacifism synonymous with anti-Americanism - they feel protected.

Besides, Europe does not care for the 221,484 Americans who died for her in the Second World War. Rather than gratitude, their cemeteries give rise to resentment. As a consequence, in Europe nobody will back this war. Not even nations which are officially allied with the U.S., not even the prime ministers who call you "My friend George." (Like Silvio Berlusconi.) In Europe you only have one friend, one ally, sir: Tony Blair. But Mr. Blair too leads a country which is invaded by the Moors. A country that hides that resentment. Even his party opposes him,and by the way: I owe you an apology, Mr. Blair. In my book "The Rage and the Pride," I was unfair to you. Because I wrote that you would not persevere with your guts, that you would drop them as soon as it would no longer serve your political interests. With impeccable coherence, instead, you are sacrificing those interests to your convictions. Indeed, I apologize. I also withdraw the phrase I used to comment on your excess of courtesy toward Islamic culture: "If our culture has the same value as the one that imposes the burqa, why do you spend your summers in my Tuscany and not in Saudi Arabia?" Now I say: "My Tuscany is your Tuscany, sir. My home is your home."

The final reason for my dilemma is the definition that Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair and their advisors give of this war: "A Liberation war. A humanitarian war to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq." Oh, no. Humanitarianism has nothing to do with wars. All wars, even just ones, are death and destruction and atrocities and tears. And this is not a liberation war, a war like the Second World War. (By the way: neither is it an "oil war," as the pacifists who never yell against Saddam or bin Laden maintain in their rallies. Americans do not need Iraqi oil.) It is a political war. A war made in cold blood to respond to the Holy War that the enemies of the West declared upon the West on September 11. It is also a…vaccine, a surgery that hits Saddam because, (Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair believe), among the various focuses of cancer Saddam is the most obvious and dangerous one. Moreover, the obstacle that once removed will permit them to redesign the map of the Middle East as the British and the French did after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. To redesign it and to spread a Pax Romana, pardon, a Pax Americana, in which everybody will prosper through freedom and democracy. Again, no. Freedom cannot be a gift. And democracy cannot be imposed with bombs, with occupation armies. As my father said when he asked the anti-fascists to join the Resistance, and as today I say to those who honestly rely on the Pax Americana, people must conquer freedom by themselves. Democracy must come from their will, and in both cases a country must know what they consist of. In Europe the Second World War was a liberation war not because it brought novelties called freedom and democracy but because it re-established them. Because Europeans knew what they consisted of. The Japanese did not: it is true. In Japan, those two treasures were somehow a gift, a refund for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But Japan had already started its process of modernization, and did not belong to the Islamic world. As I write in my book when I call bin Laden the tip of the iceberg and I define the iceberg as a mountain that has not moved for 1,400 years, that for 1,400 years has not changed, that has not emerged from its blindness, freedom and democracy are totally unrelated to the ideological texture of Islam. To the tyranny of [Islamic] states. So their people refuse them, and even more they want to erase ours.

Upheld by their stubborn optimism, the same optimism for which at the Alamo they fought so well and all died slaughtered by Santa Anna, Americans think that in Baghdad they will be welcomed as they were in Rome and Florence and Paris. "They'll cheer us, throw us flowers." Maybe. In Baghdad anything can happen. But after that? Nearly two-thirds of the Iraqis are Shiites who have always dreamed of establishing an Islamic Republic of Iraq, and the Soviets too were once cheered in Kabul. They too imposed their peace. They even succeeded in convincing women to take off their burqas, remember? After a while, though, they had to leave. And the Taliban came. Thus, I ask: what if instead of learning freedom Iraq becomes a second Talibani Afghanistan? What if instead of becoming democratized by the Pax Americana the whole Middle East blows up and the cancer multiplies? As a proud defender of the West's civilization, without reservations I should join Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair in the new Alamo. Without reluctance I should fight and die with them. And this is the only thing about which I have no doubts at all.

Design Sifu
04-02-2003, 12:23 PM
hmm...

the first part of the article had me interested...

the rest of it veared into the realm of Rants, She equates the Iraq invasion as the Alamo? but she thinks we should go there and die anyway?

So there's an Islamist Conspiracy behind all of Europe's stance against invading Iraq?

... oh by the way, remember 9/11 etc...

The Hitler=Saddam schtickt

And the Moore's in Spain was a bad thing?
. . .c'mon that article lost any credability is strove for :rolleyes:
my opinion of course :D

Christopher M
04-02-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Design Sifu
We've already lost more than we as a nation can hope to gain from this conflict.

Isn't it amazing that these young men and women are willing to give their lives for people that live on the other side of the planet who they've never met and never will?

Design Sifu
04-02-2003, 12:37 PM
I'm not sure it's all 100% as altruistic as your making it out to sound.

I'm certain each soilder there has his or her own reasons for being there. Some may well be "just following orders."

It's not like that army is made up of troops who specificly volenteered to go to Iraq and die so that stranger could be freed. Their units where ordered there, they went.

Part of the profession I figure. Mixed with that I'll bet there's some portion who are out to see some "action," some who are out to help some people & some who just want to get through it and come home...

My father was in the Military, I was not. When I applied they said thanks but no thanks. Toured with the Red cross for a bit instead for which I'm infinately greatful. If I had to choose I'd rather dress a would than make one and certainly build something rather than break it down. but hey that's me... :p

Christopher M
04-02-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Design Sifu
If I had to choose I'd rather dress a would than make one and certainly build something rather than break it down.

If this reasoning is meant to defend allowing atrocities to occur, than I am thankfull for the people who disagree with you.

Design Sifu
04-02-2003, 12:57 PM
If this reasoning is meant to defend allowing atrocities to occur, than I am thankfull for the people who disagree with you.

it's not...
you're reading into it. It's simply a statement of personal values. I mispelt wound with would but I figure you got that...

let me ask...
Are you impling that so long as the US military is currently in Iraq there are no atrocities occurring?

Do you think the US military will be free of commiting their own atrocities? intended or (more likely) unintended?

as for disagreeing... I'm fine with that, I'm trusting you are as well... si?

Christopher M
04-02-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Design Sifu
It's simply a statement of personal values.

Forgive me, I was unfair. Perhaps my intention would have been more clear had I said: almost everyone would rather dress a wound than make one, and rather build something than break it down, including the individuals involved in the current war.


Originally posted by Design Sifu
are you saying that so long as the US military in currently in Iraq there are no atrocities occurring?

No.


Originally posted by Design Sifu
do you think the US military will be free of commiting their own atrocities? intended or more likely unintended?

No.


Originally posted by Design Sifu
as for disagreeing... I'm fine with that, I'm trusting you are as well... si?

Of course.

Design Sifu
04-02-2003, 01:53 PM
Forgive me, I was unfair. Perhaps my intention would have been more clear had I said: almost everyone would rather dress a wound than make one, and rather build something than break it down, including the individuals involved in the current war.

Werd up!!!!

imagine if we could convince those who deside on war of that same ideology... we'd be terraforming mars by now.

NYerRoman
04-02-2003, 02:55 PM
Enjoy. War is killing people.

http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/hilla/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/bass/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/nass/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/dolore/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/feritimercato/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/fugabasra/index.html

AMITABHA.

old jong
04-02-2003, 03:04 PM
A terrorist? (http://www.marchforjustice.com/2956f020.jpg)
That one looks very dangerous (http://www.marchforjustice.com/34911b50.jpg)
And this one?... (http://www.marchforjustice.com/27c44010.jpg)
... (http://www.marchforjustice.com/32251f10.jpg)

dezhen2001
04-02-2003, 03:16 PM
thankyou for posting those pics guys. this world is tryuly screwed up :(:(

dawood

Laughing Cow
04-02-2003, 04:30 PM
Not sure how many people here are married and/or got little ones.

Ever since my son was born I feel that images like the above ones and the reports and pics we get in the daily papers of little ones that lost their mothers, etc in the war affect me more.

Cheers.

dezhen2001
04-02-2003, 04:53 PM
these pictures really upset me... its not iraq but they have a strong message: look at them in order :(:( (they are quite disturbing so just warning in advance)

pic1 (http://www.answering-islam.com/pali_pic17.jpg)
pic2 (http://www.answering-islam.com/pali_pic19.jpg)
pic3 (http://www.answering-islam.com/pali_pic20.jpg)
pic4 (http://www.answering-islam.com/pali_pic21.jpg)

dawood

Christopher M
04-02-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Christopher M
almost everyone would rather dress a wound than make one, and rather build something than break it down, including the individuals involved in the current war.


Originally posted by Design Sifu
imagine if we could convince those who deside on war of that same ideology...

:confused: This reply doesn't make any sense to me.


Originally posted by NYerRoman
War is killing people.

And not going to war also results in people getting killed. Many more, for a much longer period of time, and in much worse ways. My point of view is that we should act to minimize human suffering, regardless of sociopolitical interests. Do you guys disagree?

David Jamieson
04-02-2003, 05:02 PM
Christopher M-

Can you elaborate on this statement:


And not going to war also results in people getting killed. Many more, for a much longer period of time, and in much worse ways.

In my current understanding of what is said here, I disagree.

Are you speaking of Saddams torture victims specifically? Or perhaps the people who have died due to some of the side effects of the UN imposed and US enforced sanctions which have been on Iraq for 12 years?

Or are you talking about the African genocides that occured in Rwanda, you know, the ones where the American forces pulled out and left the rest of the UN forces holding the bag with that situation?

War kills people and it does it more efficiently than just about anything else.
Are you saying that going to war will extend people's lives?

More sophism from where I am reading this.

cheers

Christopher M
04-02-2003, 05:52 PM
This http://www.mundoarabe.org/halabja.jpg is what you're willing to call sophism. 5000 dead in a single day. If we take the most liberal estimates of civilian death in Iraq now, it will have to increase seven-fold just to match that *one day* in Iraq under Saddam.

This was following a prolonged war against the Kurdish people during the mid-80s which resulted in 15,000 civilian murders.

In 1993, Saddam dispossesed 300,000 Shiites as a consequence of the previous year's uprising. This was following the systematic execution of 50,000.

And these are just some highlights.

700 civilian deaths are still 700 atrocities. There is no denying that. But standing by and letting the above continue is intolerable.

PaulH
04-02-2003, 05:57 PM
Germany Now Backs Regime Change in Iraq
1 hour, 3 minutes ago

By STEPHEN GRAHAM, Associated Press Writer


BERLIN - German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer said Wednesday he hoped Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s government would collapse quickly, marking a stark turnaround from Germany's previous opposition to regime change as a goal of the U.S.-led war.

We hope the regime will collapse as soon as possible and we'll have no further loss of life — civilians or soldiers," Fischer said before a meeting with his British counterpart, Jack Straw, at a hotel in Berlin's Grunewald suburb.

Both foreign ministers stressed common ground in Europe on Iraq (news - web sites) — a position that would seem hard to stake out after the diplomatic rift over whether war should be waged to rid Iraq of weapons of mass destruction.

Germany firmly opposed the war, joining France and Russia in opposing a U.N. resolution that would have authorized force, on the grounds that peaceful means to disarm Iraq had not been exhausted. Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has condemned regime change as a war aim.

Britain, Italy, Spain and several eastern European countries have stood firmly behind the United States' conviction that Iraq would never disarm voluntarily.

However, Straw said the divide over how to disarm Iraq "disguised a great deal of agreement."

Fischer grounded his wish for regime change in Iraq in the humanitarian crisis unfolding in Iraq — a similar argument to the one he laid out when he supported NATO (news - web sites)-led campaigns to end the Bosnian war and the Kosovo conflict.

"The humanitarian situation is very alarming," Fischer told reporters.

France's government has made a string of official statements aimed at making sure its opposition to the war is not interpreted as support for the Iraqi dictator. Both the prime minister and foreign minister have insisted that France hopes the U.S.-led coalition wins the war.

"Naturally, we hope for the end of Saddam Hussein's regime," government spokesman Jean-Francois Cope told reporters Wednesday in Paris.

The U.S. ambassador to France, Howard H. Leach, also took a conciliatory tone, telling the newspaper Le Parisien on Wednesday that Washington and Paris should concentrate on the tasks ahead rather than the acrimony over the war.

"We need to turn the page and leave that problem behind us," Leach was quoted as saying. "Let's get down today to the problems of tomorrow: the reconstruction of Iraq, North Korea (news - web sites), the proliferation of banned weapons in Iran."

At the meeting near Berlin, Straw said Germany's sponsorship last week of a U.N. resolution to restart the oil-for-food program augured well for future cooperation among the anti-war and pro-war camps when it comes time to discuss rebuilding Iraq.

He said he could imagine U.N.-sponsored talks on rebuilding Iraq similar to talks on Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s political future held in Bonn in 2001.

"We're not there yet," Straw said. "We have to wait until the military action comes to a proper conclusion."

ZIM
04-02-2003, 06:38 PM
Actually, I'm in no way arguing with you, or NYroman or LC- War as it is, does indeed involve killing people. And yes, I'd rather be in the Red Cross myself than fight a war [indeed, I'd like to talk with you about that, if you would- its an organization I do admire].

My point, if theatrically stated, is that armies exist. Thats it. Generals by and large don't start the wars, the governments do- and the people behind those governments are the beneficiaries of those who serve.

I didn't bomb Hiroshima, but here I am- why's that? Because somebody killed, thats why. We all share in part of the world's misery- maybe I didn't join the military out of a sense of responsibility for that, but I got that sense out of it, so thats a good thing, no? I like to think so- it changes my relation to it.

BTW, I never said this conflict/war was Just, only that I believe there are such things as Just wars. The 'cause' to get rid of saddam could have been done in better ways, although i'm no statesman, only a citizen- so that's an opinion.

Last, yes, many soldiers are in there for any number of reasons. That doesn't matter to those who send them, either.

NYerRoman
04-03-2003, 12:09 AM
This is war.

http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/hilla/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/bass/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/nass/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/dolore/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/feritimercato/index.html
http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/guerra_in_iraq/fugabasra/index.html

peace.
AMITABHA.

Guile
04-03-2003, 12:11 AM
:(

OdderMensch
04-03-2003, 12:36 AM
but peace wasn't so hot for them either.

http://library.amnesty.it/isdocs/aidoc_everything.nsf/print/MDE140101999?OpenDocument

War sucks, but its not the worst thing that can happen.

Watchman
04-03-2003, 12:50 AM
Roman,

Did you happen to find the pictures of the torture chamber that the British found in an Iraqi police barracks yesterday? The room was complete with ceiling hooks and electrode equipment - and you can imagine how those were used by Sadaam's secret police.

Laughing Cow
04-03-2003, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by Watchman
Roman,

Did you happen to find the pictures of the torture chamber that the British found in an Iraqi police barracks yesterday? The room was complete with ceiling hooks and electrode equipment - and you can imagine how those were used by Sadaam's secret police.

You mean the Room with the 2 Tires and the industrial type electricity cable?

They said basement but one said was all window. :confused:

Watchman
04-03-2003, 12:56 AM
I believe the report on CNN I saw tonight said basement of a police barracks and showed the hooks in the ceiling.

Laughing Cow
04-03-2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Watchman
I believe the report on CNN I saw tonight said basement of a police barracks and showed the hooks in the ceiling.

I only read it online.

They talked about 2 rooms in the basement.
The one you mentioned and the electricution room.

They only had a pic of the one room.

Xebsball
04-03-2003, 06:50 AM
torture chambers can happen regardless of the regime, some of our police have that too.
But of course i wont be saying that was influenced by the fact that we were under military dictatorship some years ago that was SUPPORTED BY THE USA or anything like that...

PaulH
04-03-2003, 09:12 AM
They found this place now looting by the populace. Timely reminder of the man and his atrocities at this moment in time.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12279884,00.html

Losttrak
04-03-2003, 09:17 AM
If only I could see some pictures of something like that in Rome...
That would be super...

Design Sifu
04-03-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by ZIM
Actually, I'm in no way arguing with you, or NYroman or LC- War as it is, does indeed involve killing people. And yes, I'd rather be in the Red Cross myself than fight a war .

Well I was 19 and hooked up with an organization called Crossroads to Africa appariently the Peace corps was fashioned after this org. In short they get collage age(or older) to raise funds that would enable them to tour Africa for a summer doing relief work.

Ironicly I got involved cause I was er... courting a girl who was really interested in her African-roots being hispanic myself I was like... sure I'll go with you, why not!!!. As the group of applicants dwindled down to just she & I we finagled getting our Student Government to pay for the whole thing!!! :D
I still smile at the thought of getting the SG to pay for an exotic Summer vacation for my girlfriend & I. How truely political eh?

Anyway, we where connected with a larger group that consisted of 2 Californians, 2 New Yorkers (she & I)1 Florida Bayou boy, 1 Ohio Frat Bratt, 2 southern Bells, & an exchange student from China.

The Martial Arts Aspect:
I was heavily into my Wing Chun training at the time. The Student from China was heavily into Taijiquan. So this lead to some great early morning sessions with a few of the interested local counterparts contributing hand-me-down African equivilants.
Later got to put some Kungfu to use pulling my girlfriend out of a sticky black market situation... DRAMATIC!!!

Anyway, we spent the Summer touring and doing stuff, building, repairing, helping. Got to spent the 4th of July BBQing at the Gambian President's home. Got to meet some really strung out Peace Corps members... Pitty those people, they rairly know what they're in for when they sign up...

I could go on...




My point, if theatrically stated, is that armies exist. Thats it. Generals by and large don't start the wars, the governments do- and the people behind those governments are the beneficiaries of those who serve.

I hear that. Like I mentioned my Pop's was in the Army. Sometime in the late 50's I think. Worked in the missile silos, I don't recall the particulars. But yeah, humanity has a wayz to go before Armies become obsolete. I read something that sort of rung true:
War has always been & will always be so long as leaders rule the people rather than the people ruling their leaders...
or something to that effect...



I didn't bomb Hiroshima, but here I am- why's that? Because somebody killed, thats why. We all share in part of the world's misery- maybe I didn't join the military out of a sense of responsibility for that, but I got that sense out of it, so thats a good thing, no? I like to think so- it changes my relation to it.

So you're former Military? whatwherewhen?
True that many societies seem to have been been built on a foundation of skelatons. I figure there are exceptions but doubt that they would be represented online ;). Along those same lines I would feel a duty of our generations' is to seek not to repeat past mistakes... you know history repeating itself and all that.
Or in a Buddhist sence, living in the world IS Misery, hence the responsibility for "everyone" to seek to ease each other's misery.



BTW, I never said this conflict/war was Just, only that I believe there are such things as Just wars. The 'cause' to get rid of saddam could have been done in better ways, although i'm no statesman, only a citizen- so that's an opinion.

Sorry to sound as if I was accusing you of claiming this war to be "JUST."
I'd say we've got similar opinions details may vary.
I was listening to an interview the other day with a fellow discussing Compassionate Conflict Resolution (or something to that effect). An interesting thing he was discussing was the nature of the use of force, the differences between Punitive force and Protective force.

Perhaps that same distinction can be applied to what differentiates a "just" war" from an "unjust war." Of course those disinctions can be extremely subjective take for instance the justifications for either side of the Civil War. But getting back to the difference between Punitive force and Protective force this strikes me as a matter every Martial Artist must address at some point.Perhaps food for a different thred entirely?


Last, yes, many soldiers are in there for any number of reasons. That doesn't matter to those who send them, either.

THAT is very true. Hence the greater tragidy. Especially when one considers the military service records of those who speak MOST hawkishly of (for?) war.

[i]Whew long post. ;)

ZIM
04-03-2003, 11:57 AM
So you're former Military? whatwherewhen? Yes, more than 15 years ago, all over. This thread is not about me, tho.
I'd say we've got similar opinions details may vary maybe, maybe not. I'm a simple kind of guy- really almost countryfied... if the world would leave me be to make beer and play music on my porch, thats cool with me. But the world keeps coming up on my porch, right? The essence of my 'plan' for the world could be read in Voltaire's Candide, at the end. To wit: "we must work together without theorizing, thats the only way to make life bearable" Wouldn't work, though...everybody's a busybody...
Especially when one considers the military service records of those who speak MOST hawkishly of (for?) war. i'm assuming you're talking about the leaders here. Thats one of our collective mistakes, not hiring a president with combat experience. Another one is not firing our congress, IMHO- they abdicated their responsibilities when they allowed the president a blank check to pursue an ill-defined 'war on terrorism'.
--------------
Diff't subject: Anybody noticed that, if we were Romans, this war would NOT have occured? The auguries are all wrong... the shuttle explodes [comet!], parts being strewn over Palestine, Tx [home of the pres.], the Lynch girl is from Palestine, WV, etc. etc.
I'm going to sacrifice a goat over my CNN connection, I'll get back to you....;)

Design Sifu
04-03-2003, 01:14 PM
I thought that was specific to birds... them being closer to the heavens and what not...

to quote public enemy (loosely)

what do you expect from a nation ruled by a Bush , a D!ck, and a Colen!!!

:p

PaulH
04-03-2003, 01:22 PM
U.S. Marines Battle Suicide Attacks

By ELLEN KNICKMEYER .c The Associated Press

KUT, Iraq (AP) - U.S. Marines battled suicide attacks and dueled at close range with grenade-throwing Republican Guard fighters and Baath Party irregulars Thursday in this city east of Baghdad, but many civilians waved white flags and welcomed the troops.

Some townspeople said they were grateful for the U.S. challenge to a regime they say was going door to door and giving young men a sinister choice: fight or die.

``God help us because Saddam Hussein is killing us,'' said Kasem Fasil, an old man with a solitary jagged tooth.

``They want to give us machine guns and make us fight,'' Fasil said as thick smoke billowed behind him from Iraqi military jeeps and a military school shelled by Marines.

``We are not soldiers. How can we fight?'' Fasil asked. ``And if we don't fight they kill us.''

Farmers and townspeople lined the roads as Marine tanks and troops rolled to the fight at Kut, a town where a key bridge over the Tigris River meets the road west to Baghdad.

Iraqi men in taxis and battered cars pulled over as Marine convoys passed, getting out and crossing their hands behind their heads to show that they were not Iraqi fighters.

Families waved white flags for the same reason. At one home, a man marched back and forth in front of a compound waving a white banner on a stick. Outside one office, men knelt in the lush grass outside, clustered around a woman in a black chador who was waving a white rag.

Marines came to Kut to seek and battle Republican Guard and Baath Party fighters.

``They found both, along with huge caches of arms - dozens of mortar rounds, grenades and small arms ammo - that Iraqi fighters had stashed in schools in the town,'' Lt. Col. B.P. McCoy, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marines. ``More than we could blow up.''

Marines entered town with an attack on the military training school on the outskirts. Heavy machine gun fire shattered a mosaic of Saddam on a front wall.

Blocks into the town, Marines met Iraqi fighters firing from behind the trunks of a date palm grove.

Inside the grove, and in low white buildings around it, the Marines fought what they said was their battalion's closest fight in a week of raids aginst military complexes and Baath offices in the south.

``We were throwing grenades at each other,'' McCoy said. Other Marine units had encountered that kind of intense engagement last week to the south, at Nasiriyah.

McCoy and other Marines described a final suicide charge by the last Iraqi fighters. Clutching AK-47s, Iraqis came running against Marine tanks.

``At the end they came charging in a human wave, 10 or 15 guys,'' he said. ``We mowed them down.''

The fight ended with about 30 Iraqis dead, and the first three Marine injuries in the battalion's five raids so far. Chinook helicopters ferried out one Marine shot in the abdomen and two lightly wounded in the arm, as well as one gravely injured Iraqi.

U.S. troops stopped Iraqi civilians and the first of a stream of refugees at the outskirts of town, blocking them from the fight. Men said they had sent women and children into the countryside days ago.

Many people in Kut, a town of Shiite Muslims - Iraq's majority group persecuted by Saddam's Sunni minority - had feared Saddam's forces would unleash chemical attacks, resident Ali Hussein said, speaking to a U.S. military interpreter.

U.S. forces said Thursday they found a trove of untouched chemical protection suits in an Iraqi bunker in the area.

Army staff Sgt. Brian Plesich, traveling with the Marines, directed the translator to ask townspeople in Kut ``if they don't like Saddam, why don't they rise up themselves and fight themselves?''

Fasil replied that in 1991, after the Gulf War, Shiites in southern Iraq had done just that.

``We fought, and we thought America would help us,'' Fasil said. ``But they left us.''

``Let him know this time we're here to stay,'' Plesich said.

As Marines left town, they crossed paths with the first Iraqi refugees on the lane coming into Kut - thousands fleeing east from the direction of Baghdad.

Design Sifu
04-03-2003, 02:53 PM
Thu April 3, 2003 11:38 AM ET
KUWAIT (Reuters)

The United States admits it has used them in Iraq; Britain says it has them, but would not use them in built-up areas; Iraq says they have killed dozens of civilians; and human rights groups insist they should be banned.

Cluster bombs are deadly but unpredictable -- each contain over 200 bomblets the size of a drinks can which scatter over an area the size of two soccer fields, most exploding on impact and capable of tearing through quarter of an inch of steel.

Human rights groups fear they will soon overtake land mines as the most lethal legacy of war. Amnesty International said at least five percent are 'dud' bomblets and fail to explode on impact, effectively turning them into anti-personnel mines.

Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf accused U.S. forces on Thursday of dropping cluster bombs on the Douri residential area of Baghdad, killing 14 people and wounding 66.

A day earlier, Dr. Sadid Moussawi, at a hospital in the medieval city of Hilla, 100 km (62 miles) south of Baghdad, said 33 Iraqi civilians had been killed and more than 300 wounded in U.S. air raids on a residential area using cluster bombs.

"They are using cluster bombs," Moussawi said. "We can tell from the distribution of shrapnel."

The U.S. military said on Wednesday its B-52 bombers had dropped new precision-guided 1,000-pound (454 kg) cluster bombs on Iraqi tanks defending Baghdad, but did not say where the attack took place.

And they insisted that, while they reserve the right to use these new cluster bombs in combat, they would never target civilians with them.

British military officials denied on Thursday media reports they had fired L20 artillery cluster shells around the southern city of Basra.

Military spokesman Colonel Chris Vernon said: "We are not using cluster munitions, for obvious collateral damage reasons, in and around Basra. It's not worth our while doing that."

The controversial weapons dropped by the U.S. B52s are new and upgraded versions of older munitions, adapted to allow for wind and weather conditions to make them more accurate.

After they are dropped, they open up in the air and disperse bomblets by parachute. The bomblet packages are designed to land more precisely on intended target areas.

CALL FOR BAN

Amnesty International UK demanded on Wednesday a moratorium on the use of cluster bombs in heavily populated areas.

"The use of cluster bombs in an attack on a civilian area of Hilla constitutes an indiscriminate attack and a grave violation of international humanitarian law," it said in a statement.

Amnesty said the type of cluster bomblets used in the Hilla attack was BLU97 A/B. Each canister contains over 200 bomblets.

According to one estimate, U.S. forces dropped over 50 million cluster bombs in the 1991 Gulf War. They were also used in air campaigns over Kosovo and Afghanistan. Thousands of unexploded bomblets remain in Iraq and Kuwait from the Gulf War.

By the end of last year, close to 2,000 people in Kuwait had died or been seriously maimed by bomblets and other explosive leftovers from the war, said the Diana, Princess of Wales Memorial Fund, which campaigns against land mines.

Richard Lloyd, director of Land mine Action, said dropping cluster bombs on Iraq "contradicts any government claim to minimize civilian casualties."

"Cluster weapons are prone to missing their targets and killing civilians.

"There is also the added problem that cluster bombs produce large numbers of unexploded bomblets which effectively turn into land mines, ready to detonate on contact, causing death and injury to civilians and ground forces," he said.

Andrew Purkis, Chief Executive of the Diana Fund, said: "It's appalling that, despite the well-documented problems with cluster weapons, the U.S. and U.K. are dropping them on Iraq."

PaulH
04-03-2003, 06:28 PM
Check this out! An Iraqi Soldier kiss a Brit Soldier!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$U3BGMMKOVO23RQFIQMGSFFOAVCBQ WIV0?xml=/news/2003/04/04/wbasra04.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/04/ixnewstop.html

dezhen2001
04-04-2003, 01:30 AM
:confused:

is this a propaganda thread or something?

dawood

Souljah
04-04-2003, 02:44 AM
Not for the faint hearted (http://www.anothersite.co.uk/showit.php?url=http://www.noalaguerra.org/falsh.htm)
You'll need a flash player

Tell me what you think of the clip.....

shaolin kungfu
04-04-2003, 02:47 AM
:(

prana
04-04-2003, 03:06 AM
thanks for posting it.

it really puts out the truth about life, and it is good to reflect how lucky and evil we really are.

Souljah
04-04-2003, 03:09 AM
lol, dont be like that, I just put it up to show people how manipulative it can be with the right music and sequence.

Whether you believe it or not its a whole different thing

I'm aware alot of these images are very old, though the message is still the same...

Check the Iraq-o-meter (http://www.anothersite.co.uk/showit.php?url=http://www.iraqometer.com/)

greg

Laughing Cow
04-04-2003, 03:16 AM
It shows one of the reasons why I am against modern warfare.

In the olden days the commanders and leaders of Armies were right there at the front with the troops and often leading them into battle.

PaulH
04-04-2003, 08:48 AM
Hey Dawood,

I'm just balancing this thread. The Yin and Yang, Pro and Con, etc...Personally, I like the human elements of the war. Here we have two people supposed to be enemies become almost like brothers in that brief moment of time. Can you see his beeming happy face?

Souljah
04-04-2003, 09:05 AM
....ok, I didnt make it.

Simple as that, I put it up to show people and now you criticise ME?

The point is not that there are images from ww2 and Vietnam used with todays leaders (though only SOME of them are), its the pain the west has inflicted on the world - and the current leaders are the frontrunners of this lagacy.

This is what it said with the video.
You can believe that if you want.
I dont really care.
But the fact that it did affect you showed that it worked.

greg

Badger
04-04-2003, 09:28 AM
Who did the editing? Michael Moore?

Why is it Anti-War, Anti-gun,Anti-freedom people always edit crap to fit their agenda?

They should know their views are BS because of the lies they have to create to support it.



Badger

dezhen2001
04-04-2003, 09:36 AM
the iraqi soldiers - many of them were forced to join like my friends cousin - on the threat of their family being killed. They will desert at the first chance they get.

The 34-year-old Iraqi planted a bristly kiss on the cheek of Flt Lt Ritchie Wylor-Owen of the RAF Regiment when he realised that his surrender had been accepted.

He wore the red beret and wings of an airborne unit and said he was an officer. He claimed to have been in prison in Baghdad for desertion when he was offered his freedom in return for going to the front. He took the first opportunity to escape and had been searching for days for coalition troops to whom he could give himself up. its not "balancing" my friend but propaganda.

dawood

Suntzu
04-04-2003, 09:38 AM
it is kinda fu(ked up to think they running around laffing an joking and running the world while lil kids(most soldiers are only 18-20 something) are scared sh!tless with bullets and bombs wizzin about…

Badger
04-04-2003, 09:47 AM
What did you do today?

Any laughing & joking? did you eat or do any of your daily routine?
Been on any KF Forums?

OR did you bite your bottom lip & "feel the pain"?


Funny how some people are sucked in by a bad editing job.



Badger

PaulH
04-04-2003, 09:52 AM
Come on, Dawood. Every things posted here are propaganda. It is only a question of good or bad ones. I provide the viewers with the sources and trust them to draw their own conclusions. They are biased of course but as long as they are reasonable and make sense to me at least, they deserve close examinations. I do read your posts and reflect on them. If I disagree, it is because they are not convincing enough to overturn my current thinking on the topic.

Regards,

Suntzu
04-04-2003, 09:55 AM
I'm talkin 'bout *us* too… its ALL fu(ked up… seems the editing got u too…

Suntzu
04-04-2003, 10:04 AM
whatever… it still fu(ked up… that's all I said…I still live my life… but I much rather have my friends that are military here than over there… he\\… I didn't vote for this sh!t…

Badger
04-04-2003, 10:31 AM
What did you vote for? Backing down & doing nothing?

The choices are simple:
1. Go fight
2. Support
3. Get the hell outta the way!!!!!

Suntzu
04-04-2003, 10:41 AM
support don’t mean I gotta agree with every arm chair soldier… and when da he\\ did a ballot come in the mail… talkin bout 'do u want to go to war check yes or no'…

Badger
04-04-2003, 10:46 AM
It's on the back.. just a few inches from the bottom.





Badger

Design Sifu
04-04-2003, 10:59 AM
Min:
601

Max:
760

Design Sifu
04-04-2003, 11:19 AM
Major Rocke:
I enlisted in the military in 1967, in Vietnam.. in 1980 I went back into the army as a combat medic.. instructor in biological and chemical warfare.. in 1990 I went to the Gulf War as a physician.. nuclear, biological and chemical warfare specialist.. tapped by General Swartzkoff to clean up DU.. in 1994, named the DU cleanup coordinator for the Pentagon.. research how to clean it up on the battlefield, etc..

I am still a medical doctor in the military.. DU is used to kill and destroy everything in its path.. each tank round has 10 pounds of DU, contaminated with.. A10 aircraft can fire a ton and a half of DU in one minute.. also used in landmines, and bunker buster.. also a 20mm round fired by the Navy.. very effective in combat, the military has put them in every munition they can.. 'depleted' uranium is misleading.. not really depleted, more or less just regular uranium..

DU leaves a distinctive.. with the explosion, you'll see sparklers and the fire will continue to burn.. the rounds catch fire after leaving the barrel of the weapon.. when it impacts, 10 pound of solid uranium.. 4 pounds on fire, causes secondary detonations.. oxides form, contamination up to 400 meters around.. the Pentagon says soldiers must wear respiratory masks in that area.. a heavy metal radiologic toxin.. end up with cancers, neurological problems, rashes..

during Gulf War 1, we fired a million rounds from the A-10.. 15,000 tank rounds, and left it all in the desert.. we all started getting sick.. but medical care was deliberately denied.. the Los Alamos memorandum, said cover up the dangers, or we will lost the weapon.. the individuals that have died.. my exposure was due to inhalation, faulty gas masks, the gas masks still faulty today.. the first cancers on our cleanup team developed in 8 or 9 months..

a decision, Gen Swartzkoff memiors.. on page 390.. US gave Saddam his chemical weapons.. the Pentagon is telling an absolute lie.. Grovers memorandum.. a medical conference at Wright Patterson.. it is not propaganda.. the warning came from the US military's own health experts..

also used in the Balkans, in Puerto Rico.. the deliberate willful denial of medical care has been ongoing.. I'm sick, and they haven't done anything for me.. the DOD formally acknowledges only 90 individuals exposed..

a specific medical directive.. requires medical care for all indivicuals, being in the midst of smoke or fire of DU.. issued October of 1993, because we were going to use DU when we attacked Somalia.. the training is still not being.. an A10 pilot killed British soldiers in a friendly fire incident, using DU weapons, and the regulations are still not being complied with..

Interviewer:
The embedded reporters in grave danger too?..

Major Rocke:
any person who comes within range of DU contamination is in grave danger.. the UN ruled that DU weapons were a weapon of mass destruction..

Interviewer:
How about the backlash against Major Rocke..

Major Rocke:
the retaliation against me has been huge.. in the US no one can possess or despose of even a (small amount) of uranium, because it is so poisonous, but the US military spreading tons of this stuff all around the world, poisoning hundreds of thousands of people for generations..

(reads the Los Alamos memorandum).. the military saying we must lie to the public about the dangers of DU or they may lose the right to use it.. about the US military attitude toward Kuwaiti and Iraqi civilians exposed to DU..

Major Rocke:
the US military made me their DU expert, but after I spoke up, my opportunity for advancement ended.. the US and UK have made a conscious decision to take their waste uranium and spread it around the globe.. and I have been threatened.. on a regular basis..

in February 1999 the US used DU in Vieques, Puerto Rico.. I went to PR, on site, medical evaluations on residents, the contamination is extensive.. the media and government covering up.. in Iraq, the sandstorms and DU munitions, you can't clean it up, and medical care not being provided..

the Gulf War official US death toll is 766.. but the Dept. of Veterans Affairs now says 221,000 GW veterans are permanently diabled.. and we know that number is low.. and the VA says over 10,000 have died due to Gulf War Syndrome (due to DU and other toxic poisoning).. and medical care is still not being provided.. sick and dying across the world.. the issue abandoned because of the enormous health and cleanup costs..

Transcript from Radio Interview. (http://www.flashpoints.net/cgi-bin/ra.pl?date=20030402&start=23:30)

Xebsball
04-04-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Badger
What did you vote for? Backing down & doing nothing?

The choices are simple:
1. Go fight
2. Support
3. Get the hell outta the way!!!!!

Fuk U phagyt shyet

Badger
04-04-2003, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Xebsball


Fuk U phagyt shyet


HaHa. Good One.

shaolin kungfu
04-04-2003, 01:11 PM
Do you honestly believe that anyone that disagrees with you should just get the hell out of the way. People like you are the reason the rest of the world hates america.

Is it just me, or is everyone from texas stupid?

dezhen2001
04-04-2003, 01:30 PM
PaulH: of course my "arguments" arent convincing - im a 23 year old guy who has NO clue about politics, what is real and what is fake that is being told to us and everything else.

Im also caught right in the middle between the "US" and also "fanatical" propaganda - and make no doubt about it there is both.

Do you want me to post some pics of babies affected by the DU? There is plenty of them out there. Now i dunno about you, but thats just some nasty sh|t no matter what way you look at it. Real nasty. Fighting a war and making weapons more powerful using DU - and also the fact that they are just left there and contaminate everything including your own soldiers... :(

Did you see the pics i posted before of a man and his son getting shot for no reason? Its kinda obvious where they come from but i mean for Gods sake! They were non-combatants!

Theres no such thing as "good" or "bad" propaganda - they all cover what the real position is to make the masses agree with a decision.

anyway hopefully this is gonna be my last post on this topic as everyone has gone war crazy.

dawood

PaulH
04-04-2003, 01:38 PM
Hey Dawood,

Do you ever feel like we are participants in a tragic Shakespear's play? I do and I know that when it is over if ever. I'll be one of the casualty number. For now I play the part and you play the tune. Nothing personal, we are like the U.S civil war brothers on the wrong side.

Best regards,

dezhen2001
04-04-2003, 01:45 PM
nah - im outside the loop, otherwise i would be "against" you. hope you are NOT one of the "casualty number" as u said.

dawood

Christopher M
04-04-2003, 03:46 PM
Since no one answered last time:

And not going to war also results in people getting killed. Many more, for a much longer period of time, and in much worse ways. My point of view is that we should act to minimize human suffering, regardless of sociopolitical interests. Do you guys disagree?

PaulH
04-04-2003, 05:47 PM
Christopher M,

I think you got your wish. I think this might very well be my last post on this thread. Been nice to know you and others regardless of our opinions. "Old soldier never dies, they just fade away..."

Even the Iraqis can't deny who has the upper hand
By John Keegan, Defence Editor
(Filed: 05/04/2003)


The contrast between what official Iraqi announcements tell the population and the reality of war as related by Western situation reports grows ever greater.

Yesterday the Iraqi information minister, Mohammed Saeed al Sahhaf, was busy not only denying that Baghdad airport had fallen to the Americans but claiming that the Americans had suffered a serious defeat trying to capture it.

"We surrounded their forces with our Special Republican Guard and we are finishing them off," he said. "These cowards have no morals. They have no shame about lying."

That despite photographic and film evidence that the airport had been largely abandoned by the Iraqis and that the Americans had seized sizeable footholds inside. Sahhaf seems to have fallen into the mode of denying everything as his means of coping with bad news.

There is now very little of public Iraq that remains outside the hands of the invaders. The oilfields have been secured, before large scale fires could be started. Umm Qasr, the country's only deepwater port, was captured intact. So were all the major bridges over the Tigris and Euphrates.

The airport has now gone, threatening the regime with the prospect of the American forces flying reinforcements and supplies direct to the front line. True, the coalition has not yet risked sending major units into either Basra or Baghdad; but it hovers on the outskirts.

Does Iraq have the capability to repel attack on the cities? Sahhaf warned that it would resort to "unconventional warfare" to hold Baghdad. By that he apparently meant "martyrdom".

The distinction between the tactics of martyrdom and the costly engagements in which the Iraqis have engaged so far, when they have fought, may be difficult to establish. If, however, Sahhaf is predicting that Iraqis will become suicide bombers, he does so with precious little evidence that they will.

Three US soldiers and two civilians were killed on Thursday in the second apparent suicide bombing in a week, but there is no history of suicide tactics among Iraqis. They are not noted for religious fanaticism.

On the other hand, the city environment does confer advantages on determined defenders not available outside. In the open countryside ambush places readily reveal themselves and the energy from explosive charges disperses readily. In the city there are ambush points everywhere and walls and buildings confine and funnel detonations.

The key question is whether what are now the remnants of the Iraqi military structure retain enough effective fighters to maximise the military advantages that the city environment offers.

In Basra the British have not pressed into the centre, but there have been good reasons for that. The high command has not wished to offer the Iraqis a public relations success in the event of an all-out offensive failing or incurring heavy casualties.

That is an unlikely outcome. The defenders of Basra seem to be for the most part Ba'athist militiamen, not trained soldiers. Formations of the regular army at Basra have melted away and there were never any Republican Guard in the south.

Despite the Republican Guard's heavy losses under air attack and in the ground fighting outside Baghdad, it must still retain some strength near and inside the capital. There will also be Ba'ath militiamen.

Can such people be expected to be a match for the American attackers if a battle for the city begins? They will certainly be able to inflict casualties and perhaps to delay the American advance.

A match they are not.

Whenever it is decided that the drive to take Baghdad will begin, it will soon succeed.

Christopher M
04-04-2003, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by PaulH
Christopher M,

I think you got your wish.

:confused:

ZIM
04-05-2003, 07:36 PM
Hi all.
I'm curious: has it occurred to anyone that this may in fact evolve into a good thing, **if the Iraqis choose to let it be so**? [it isn't now- but that can change]

Follow this:
this is the first time in US history that we're going into an Arab land and intending to stay for a time. Guaranteed that is a much-needed opportunity to present the Arab POV as a balance to the overwhelming Israeli POV that we're fed all the time. Guaranteed that some soldiers will convert to Islam, develop a taste & appreciation for that culture- and be vocal proponents here at home. This factor may prevent the future wars we speculate on...

DS- it's been said alot already, but I *believe* that the numbers of civilian dead speak volumes for the *accuracy* of our munitions- 15 days of war and ONLY 800+/- ?? Who in the WORLD can match that, with all the bombs dropped? I know that in my city, that would be in thousands by now- not hundreds. I wish war could be made antiseptic... & this is the closest so far... lets hope it gets better if it must happen again.

ALSO- never thanked you for sharing the Red Cross/Humanitarian info! Thanks! :D :)

Internal Boxer
04-07-2003, 05:28 AM
I have been away and not followed the war, has there been any more repeats of the friendly fire - depleted uranium bombs dropped on our lads recently??

Out of interest was anything reported like this in the US press about this incident and the ones back in the Gulf War of 91.

dezhen2001
04-07-2003, 05:37 AM
think a bomber just blew up a convoy of kurds and special forces... check yahoo news. know one of our reporters was injured by shrapnel and stuff.

dawood

Brad
04-07-2003, 07:05 AM
Yeah, the US press has reported most all our friendly fire incidents(as far as I know). We almost got some Russians recently too(wounded, no kills this time ;)), though no one's 100% sure it was us this time.

Design Sifu
04-07-2003, 11:08 AM
Min:
877

Max:
1050


busy weekend... :(

Black Jack
04-07-2003, 11:21 AM
As I mentioned before, consider the source where those numbers are coming from. I am not buying it as a solid source of reporting. Even if so, it is a testament to how humane this military effort is.

gtho- I am sure that will be skipped right over.

Design Sifu
04-07-2003, 11:39 AM
Guaranteed that is a much-needed opportunity to present the Arab POV as a balance to the overwhelming Israeli POV that we're fed all the time.

Not sure what you mean by this... Are you implying that the US's occupation of Iraq will some how balance out the Israeli occupation of Palistine?

or are you saying the US will turn Iraq into a power on par with Israel and thus creat a balance of power in the middle east?

Please elaborate:

I understand the US just purchased some Israeli made armored bulldozers for urban combat. I've also been hearing alot on how much "support" Israel recieves from the US as it is.

I don't imagine the US with set up Iraq to function as a check for Israel. Besides the set up of backing up 2 appariently opposing factions would be another breeding ground for Blowback of the nature of our pal Osama...

Have any of you heard about the Israeli "retaining wall." From what I've found out it'll make the berlin wall pale... cutting off all access to water, roads etc... dreadful. but I'm totally rambling now & so I'll wait for further clarification...

As for civilian body count:
<sarcastic>Hurray the US can accurately bomb a market or a hospital...</sarcastic> If they're so accurate (which I have my doubts about) why are these places being hit in the first place?
Yeah I'm certain if China where invading things would be messier. But does that makethe fact that the US is doing so "just?"
If accuracy & mercy were such a priority then why introduce cluster bombs (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/WorldNewsTonight/iraq_antitank030403.html) into the field of combat when their reputation (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/18/attack/main533520.shtml) is so....er, messy (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Landmines_html/ClusterBombs_Civilians.html)
Am I being too idealistic in thinking the US should demonstraite their military superiority with restraint? You know, like a martial artist fight a punk with one hand?


ahhhh... life in the movies....:cool:

Black Jack
04-07-2003, 12:02 PM
Yes you are being to idealistic.

I would not fight a punk one handed, I would use my Cyclops style chi blast to rupture his soul, then tie him to my family jewels and use my secret asian iron sack training to drag him to the world of Morrowwind and transport his essence into a petty soul gem from where I would make a hearty amount of gold in Vivec.

Design Sifu
04-07-2003, 01:01 PM
yes... that sounds very much like the adventures of BlackJack... :p

ZIM
04-07-2003, 04:14 PM
"Not sure what you mean by this... Are you implying that the US's occupation of Iraq will some how balance out the Israeli occupation of Palistine?

or are you saying the US will turn Iraq into a power on par with Israel and thus creat a balance of power in the middle east?"
------------------------------------
Neither actually. I'm saying that Israel tends to have US sympathies and funding, and the Arab POV is woefully absent. Maybe I overstated my optimism, but I tend to think that exposure is good- and I'm confident that the Iraqis are good ppl, in general, like most.

WRT civilian body counts- nobody wants to see civilians killed and there is no possible way to make anything foolproof- and you know that... WRT cluster bombs- I don't know. Do you know why SH decided to hide out amongst his own ppl, rather than to meet the US out in the desert, thereby avoiding ANY civilian casualties? Maybe nobody cares that much... thats the sad part.

Design Sifu
04-07-2003, 04:51 PM
Do you know why SH decided to hide out amongst his own ppl, rather than to meet the US out in the desert, thereby avoiding ANY civilian casualties? Maybe nobody cares that much... thats the sad part.

no really...

but let me use a comicbook to er... illustrait my point.

Villians:
All a villian has to do to establish their villianny is to do something mean. Steal a kids lollypop or in the case of SH use civilians as human shileds etc.

Heroes:
For a hero to define themselves it's a trickier affair. It's not just about stopping the villian, it's also about demonstrating moral superiority.

now weither this whole conflict is cornered on the US's Moral superiority is debatable. However, the US/UK is certainly tring hard to establish such an appearance. With that in mind, then don't you think it falls to the US/UK to demonstrait said moral superiority?
Yeah bringing bottle water is a nice step, but well... the hypocracy becomes apparant in light of the use of Cluster (http://www.motherjones.com/total_coverage/kosovo/reality_check/cluster.html)Bombs (http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1999/06/09/p11s2.htm) as well as Depleted (http://www.iacenter.org/depleted/mettoc.htm) Uranium (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/du.htm)

But I'm digressing. It seems ludicrus to think SH would meet us out in the field to protect his civilians when:[list=a]
The US/UK is the agressing/invading force
The Iraqi army is obviously outclassed
It's established that Saddam is "evil"
[/list=a]

but you know all that yeah?

Laughing Cow
04-07-2003, 04:53 PM
Some say that the Iraq war is NOT about oil.
But than I guess nobody knows what is driving Shrub really. ;)

Below is an article from todays newpaper, that shows an interesting scenario of what Postwar Iraq might be able to do to OPEC.


Postwar Iraq may kill OPEC

Privatized oil industry may ramp up global output

Vienna (AFP-Jiji) A postwar Iraq could kill off the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) if it were to leave the Cartel in a bid to produce as much oil as it can outside its quota system, analysts warn.
" If the Iraqi oil industry is privatized, forget about OPEC, it is dead" said LEo Drollas of London's center for Global Energy Studies (CGES).
He said postware Iraq was likely to demand to be allowed to export the same amount of oil as neighbouring iraq, like it did before it was kicked out of the cartel in 1990 for invading Kuwait.
Iran currently produces 3.59 million barrels per day.
"Iraq will want to produce as much as it can as quickly as it can to finance its reconstruction costs. Iraq will say: "We want at least parity with Iran," Drollas said.
He added that OPEC would resist, as this would mean scaling down its other 10 member's quotas, and at this point "Iraq will have to strike a decision wether to stay or to leave".

Neil Patrick, a researcher for The Economist weekly, sait it was "very unlikely in the short term" that Iraq, a founding member would break away from OPEC.
"Iraq's production will not exceed 3 million barrels per day for a couple of years" giving the dilapitated state of its infrastructure, he said.
"But on the longer term there is a potential for disputes with OPEC on output.
"When Iraq has enhanced its production capacities, it might want to compete with Saudi Arabia (the world's biggest oil exporter). The question will be what quota constraints will be imposed by OPEC and IRaq might than choose to opt out."
"Iraq might well become a Trojan horse for the United States," he said hinting that Washington could encourage the oil makret to be flooded to help achieve its foreign policy objectives.
Hawks in the U.S. administration believe that certain OPEC member countries use their oil revenues to finance terrorism.
If Iraq were to rapidly increase its oil production it could flood the world market and push the price of oil below $18 a barrel, while it hovered around $30 a barrel before the start of the war.
The hawks are counting on such a drop in oil price to stimulate growth in the United States and the rest of the West and to devastate the economis of Iran & Libiya, two OPEC members considered rogue states by Washington, and to create conditions that will help topple their regimes.

Mehdi Varzi, from the British bank Dresdner-Kleinwort-Wasserstein, said however that Iraq was unlikely to leave the OPEC fold.
He argued that OPEC should review its quotas as "some countries want a bigger market share. Algeria, which produces way over its quots and Nigeria for instance. Sauid Arabia will have to step back."

An PEC source , who did not want o be named, said the Vienna based cartel was heading for a quota rethink.
"The ministers are aware that OPEC needs a new ststem of quotas. Our experts will met in June in Vienna and make certain recommendations to the next ministerial meeting in September. The new system should reflect the reality of the market."
OPEC produces about 35% of the world emand for oil and is loosing market share to non-members, particularly Russia.
The source said OPEC "might consider lowering the price band" which currently stands at between $22 and $28 a barrel, to right down to $18 and $20 a barrel.

A mechanism adopted in March 2000 allows the cartel to bring its production below half a million barrels per day if the price of crude were to stay below the $22 barrier for 10 consecutive days.
Similarly it could push up production if the price were higher than $28 per barrel for 28 days.

As it embarks on these reforms, OPEC wil "try to convicne Iraq to continue with us. We have no illusions about the problems OPEC will have to face if Iraq leaves the organization," the source said.

Form your own opinions about the scenario and any relevance it might have to the current war.

Cheers.

ZIM
04-07-2003, 06:01 PM
That was kinda funny.

I mean, you're still voicing it as a black/white situation when you and I both know its not. What a hoot. Or at least it better be- if you're expecting me to defend weaponry use, you got another think coming.

Hey, did you know that the sand in Iraq is too powdery for sandbags? The US had to import sand to the desert! HAHAHA

Christopher M
04-07-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Some say that the Iraq war is NOT about oil.
But than I guess nobody knows what is driving Shrub really. ;)

You're suggesting the entire Persian Gulf fiasco is a giant conspiracy to allow Iraq to get out of OPEC? :confused:

Laughing Cow
04-07-2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Christopher M

You're suggesting the entire Persian Gulf fiasco is a giant conspiracy to allow Iraq to get out of OPEC? :confused:

I am not suggesting anything, the words in the article are not mine.
I know you Americans got a habit of attacking & shooting the messenger.
:mad:

All I am presenting is the opinion of other people, it is up to YOU guys to read it and form your own opinions on them.
As I said at the bottom of the post.

Have fun.

ZIM
04-07-2003, 06:45 PM
But than I guess nobody knows what is driving Shrub really. I sure don't---but I've got some pretty good guesses... HEY- Quotes time!!

"On March 17, before he delivered a 48-hour ultimatum to Saddam, Bush summoned congressional leaders to the White House. They expected a detailed briefing, but the president told them he was notifying them only because he was legally required to do so and then left the room. They were taken aback, and some were annoyed." -From USA Today

"We want you nervous." -Former CIA Director James Woolsey in a speech to UCLA students, addressing Egypt and Saudi Arabia, after refering to a plan to remap the Middle East as "World War IV," and after insisting that the "new war" will last longer than World Wars one and two combined, but "hopefully less" than the forty-year Cold War.



:( Ok, so I'm nervous. Really really nervous. Now what?

Christopher M
04-07-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
I am not suggesting anything, the words in the article are not mine.
I know you Americans got a habit of attacking & shooting the messenger.

I'm not "attacking and shooting the messenger" and I'm also not an American.

I'm simply trying to figure out what, exactly, it is you're trying to say.

I presumed you had some sort of personal belief in the author's thesis since you choose to post it here. (After all, there's an awful lot of political articles out there, and you chose this one to post out of the blue!)

It seems to me the author's thesis is that the goal here is to allow Iraq to leave OPEC. It seems to me that this makes no sense whatsoever, since, by the author's own admittion, they allready had left OPEC.

If I am wrong or you disagree, I hoped to hear about it for my own edification and in the interests of discussion.

I apologize if any miscommunication offended you.

Laughing Cow
04-07-2003, 07:36 PM
Cristopher M.

Sorry, for being snappy.

In the article there are opinions by 3 people, 2 said that it is likely that Iraq will leave OPEC in a few yearstime, the 3rd one said it is unlikely.

It highlites a possible scenario that could possible change the way the whole world does business and cause a major power shift in the world.

BTW, Iraq is still listed as a member on the OPEC site, at the moment they are also the ONLY OPEC member that trade their oil in Euro dollars (Oil for food program).

As for my belief about the Iraq War.

I think that the US is after a major power shift in the middle-east and to add long-term benefits to their economy.
How will they achieve that, there are multiple possible scenarios.

Controlling oil supplies & prices (Alaska oil, iraqi oil, etc) and being independant of "outside oil" is at the moment the most likely and feasable scenario.

The US Goverment plans ahead for a lot longer than the current presidents term.

Seeya.