View Full Version : Final Report/ Thank You All

The Willow Sword
06-09-2001, 03:47 AM
This is my final disposition on the questions i posed people in my post titling"a serious Question"for research purposes.

Whatever YOU think Shaolin-Do is or Want It to Be,,,,IT IS.
That being said, i will now give you my views on this subject and reply to all of you on this matter. What IS shaolin-Do( To Me)?
Note; this is not the feeling of all my bretheren in the school. I speak only for myself and do not want this to be interpreted as a disrespect to ANYONE OR ANYTHING regarding Shaolin,Shaolin-DO, or students of Any Martial art.
We Can and we will debate the existence of lineages and school's and styles and how they are taught until the end of time. This has been going on for centuries by teachers, students ,masters and the like. WE all WILL NOT agree upon everything so we will have to AGREE to DISAGREE on certain subjects regarding lineage, material,and above all CONTENT of the Shaolin-Do Curriculum.
Shaolin-Do is a system of martial arts that encompasses the techniques,forms,internal/external aspects of chinese and japanese martial arts. Our Grandmaster has taken the teachings of his grandmaster and has, in his own way, made the art HIS ART. (HE is successful in doing so).
Shaolin-Do's roots go to the Southern temple in Fujian. The evolution of the art then goes to Indonesia and then here to America. Grandmaster Sin has done this ALL his life.
Shaolin-do's ranking system is that of the japanese belt system.(belts did not come into play until the turn of the last century when the need for individual rank and accomplishment was needed to keep those who are unaware of the true dedication that martial arts requires(ANY MARTIAL ART) in the school. its about buisiness and economics and ego.) Belts and ranking mean NOTHING TO ME. however,,,AUTHORITY DOES AND SO DO MY ELDERS AS WELL. Grandmaster Sin is an authority figure AND an elder and i respect and honor the man for his accomplishments.

To answer the question about our FORMS< KATAS<TECHNIQUES. They are COMBAT oriented forms__(which are more choppy and more hard style than FORMS THAT ARE USED FOR SHOW AND PERFORMANCE. OUR forms are used for FIGHTING. that is the external aspect of what we Teach.
The internal/which is my path in this school. We teach *Tai-chi, *Pa-Kua ,*Hsing-i ,Chi-kung meditation. these *systems did not come from the temple but were later adopted in to the shaolin temple AS WAS ALOT OF OTHER THINGS,ie; mantis, drunken, eagleclaw, etc etc.
what was unique about the temple were the i-chin ching muscle/tendon changing classics,,the 5 fists and other sets relating to those that i have mentioned....Shaolin temple was a university of martial arts knowlege NOT ALL OF IT ORIGINATING THERE BUT WINDING UP THERE AND THE OTHER TEMPLES AS WELL.

As for blending the elements of japanese style fighting into the shaolin curriculum we have; i will pose this statement in a question:
what is tae kwon-DO? ,,,jeet kune DO? Kempo?
tuk kong musel? Cha yon ryu? BJJ? are these not all hybrid systems that incorporate many styles in to them to create an effective way of fighting? these are ALL successful schools tae kwon do being the most successful and why? MONEY? yes. catering to americans so that hey will understand? yes. fighting effectiveness?(matter of opinion).
as for the claims that grandmaster sin has claimed with respect to his knowlege and his abilities. so far i have not been provided with ANY documantation to tell me other wise,,,,when i posted this i wanted FACT not OPINIONS and not alot of CONJECTURE and guessing. with that in mind i will have to assume that what all nay sayers say about Grandmaster Sin, comes from nothing more than the centuries of gabbing and ego posturing and mud slinging that has gone on in politics ,,martial arts and evrything else that is of interest to the masses.

As for the "tainting of Shaolin" what has been tainted? Are the forms that all of you learn the ORIGINALS AS IT WAS TAUGHT IN THE 500'S ON UP? YOU HAVE ALL ,,IM SURE HAVE HEARD THE SAYING THAT "THINGS CHANGE WITH TIME" Animals ,Plants, Humans, Technology,,,,,,,,FORMS?

every master will do the forms in his/her own way and teach it in his/her own way and live it in his/her own way. There is how it was Taught and then how it is interpreted and then repeated.

Final statemant from me to all my martial arts bretheren and the sisters as well: I RESPECT WHAT ALL OF YOU DO HERE IN THIS COUNTRY, ALL THE SCHOOLS AND ALL THE TEACHERS AND MASTERS(REGARDLESS) OF WHAT IT IS THAT IS TAUGHT. MY RESPECTS GO OUT TO YOU, I DONT TRASH OTHER SYSTEMS AND OTHER WAYS. i do have my doubts about the shaolin monks at shaolin temple. that i have not kept a secret,,for many reasons having todo with POLITICS,NOT THE ART OR THE MARTIAL ABILITIES OF ANYONE THERE. As for challenges and fights and what we have seen and not seen and what we have heard,,each one of us is different in the way we train ,fight, live. some are good and some arent,,especially in our school,we have those who need help and they get it there. they dont get ousted or beat up or made fun of.we laugh at times but it is better than being angry and hurting them.
That is who we are and what we do at Shaolin-Do.
MANY RESPECTS, WILLOW SWORD. (Jason Bratcher 2nd degree black belt, instructor/internalist 15 yrs a student of martial arts.)

The Willow Sword
06-09-2001, 05:06 AM

06-09-2001, 12:34 PM
Can you fight? My experience in fighting You guys tells me the answer is no. Above all else Shaolin practioners are respected for their fighting ability. Perhaps I'm jaded. I studied Shaolin-Do for about a year, then I stumbled onto a real Shaolin school and my eyes were opened. In comparison it like night and day. On one had you have your point sparring tounement training with some trumped up Qi Qong parlor tricks(Shaolin Do)and on the other hand you have kupshhhhhhaahhh! Nothing but a can a whoop ass. Serious fighting technique serious weapons work no belts.

To each, his own. No disrespects

MonkeySlap Too
06-09-2001, 07:37 PM
Try entering a traditional wushu tournament. See what the judges there think of your forms and your san da.

You may find this -- interesting.

Frankly, no one cares what you beleive. It is just that CMA practitioners are tired of seeing karate carry the CMA name.

I've seen you guys and a good buddy of mine, whose Longfist skills I highly respect, visited a school that belongs to your group in Las Vegas. What he was amazed by was - what the school did not know and could not do.

No offense intended. Just try opening your eyes.

You can go on teaching wehat you are teaching, but now you too are propagating a lie. How does that feel?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

The Willow Sword
06-09-2001, 08:06 PM

Monkeyslap: i dont go to competitions or tournaments: why? becuase i am not interested in
tournaments and competition, i dont have the same ego you have. as for continuing a lie?
i disagree with you.
many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

MonkeySlap Too
06-10-2001, 01:28 AM
Hmm, ego isn't realy the question. It's more like 'Gee, Mssrs Yang, Choi, Chan, Lin, Tsou, et al - I have been told what I do is Shaolin. How come it looks nothing like it and is devoid of all the methods and body language? Why does it move/act like karate? Why do you keep patting my head and tell I'm a good boy, now please go away...'

THAT is the purpose of checking out a tournament. And please, a national level one like Jeff Bolt's - okay?

I'm just trying to help.

As far as the lie. Who is in worse shape - the first to lie or those that beleive the lie?

No amount of deconstructionist argument can save you from the truth. :eek:

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

The Willow Sword
06-10-2001, 02:58 AM
Well i respect your views even though i disagree with them. You do what you do and i do what i do.
like i said before your ego is different than mine,,i personally am not concerned with impressing upon anyone my forms or techniques,,that is a martial arts code that is rarely followed nowadays.
Many Respects,,Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

MonkeySlap Too
06-10-2001, 03:32 AM
You know Willow, I just don't think your getting it. Its not about ego - heck its not even about me or the stuff I do. I do not recall even once mentioning that you had to do anything I do. And it is certainly is not about you. Other than the fact that you choose to stick your head in the sand on this. Which is admirable (?) I guess, in the context of the weight of information against your position.

I'm curious where you get the idea that there is some martial code about leaving others alone. While I myself teach a disciplined approach to avoiding trouble and seeking harmony, history is certainly against me on this. Martial artists have always sought to prove themselves in combat and over each other. That is how they acheived thier goals. Note, that no one here is doing that. We are simply concerned about the lies propagated by the SD organization.

In simpler terms I don't care if you do Tae Bo and call it ancient Shaolin secrets. I just wish you did not because it sets a very bad example. How? By propagating a lie.

After all, we know that the SD code puts you above us all, and you wouldn't want to stoop to our lower, unenlightened level and see for yourself by asking legitimate CMA teachers to review your SD 'stuff'. ;)

And, as I find with most of my delightful interchanges with you, I must stop, otherwise you won't. So - I give up. Good luck on your path, and thanks for not calling me 'son' this time. I appreciate it.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-10-2001, 04:53 AM
The Willow Sword wrote:
"Shaolin-Do is a system of martial arts that encompasses the techniques,forms,internal/external aspects of chinese and japanese martial arts. Our Grandmaster has taken the teachings of his grandmaster and has, in his own way, made the art HIS ART. (HE is successful in doing so).
Shaolin-Do's roots go to the Southern temple in Fujian. The evolution of the art then goes to Indonesia and then here to America. "
You can (and probably will) take this as one SD student backing up another (not that I feel TWS needs MY help), but he basically seemed to say that SD is a blending of multiple arts. A traditional shaolin practicioner would be unqualified to judge it by this definition.
MonkeyslapToo...if he TEACHES that SD is a mix of styles would you still feel he was "propagating a lie"?
What if TWS got his start in SD and then moved on to study ALSO with another internal instructor...not in the SD organization (which he may have done, who knows)? Would his art in your mind still forever be tainted by studying SD?
In my immeadiate area the only martial instruction is Japanese, Korean, or Shaolin-do...would someone that TRULY wanted to learn a CMA be better off studying the almost entirely linear arts, or studying SD which has quite a few "indirect" movements and delves into the internal aspects? I'm just curious as to what your feelings are about these questions.



MonkeySlap Too
06-10-2001, 05:25 AM
It would depend on the choices. If Judo was one of them, I would take that.

The tricky thing about CMA is that the stuff that really defines it is very easy to get 'wrong'. (Keep in mind that there are probably 600 variations of 'right') The SD stuff I have seen messes up your body english so much, that I do not see practicing it as any better than doing the Japanese or Korean stuff. Well, who knows, maybe it is a little better depending on the quality of the Japanese and or Korean instructors. Actually, for that matter, given those three choices, I'd probably go to a community college and take wrestling or boxing.

If Sin practiced these other arts elsewhere, he sure did it with someone who wasn't very good. If you doubt me, seek out an expert that everyone agrees is one - like Chen Xioawang or Wai Lun Choi or Li Tai Liang and show them your 'internal' stuff. You'll be -- enlightened. Oh, and the reason these teachers are respected outside of thier group is because they can back up thier claims. Something Sin may not be able to do.

As far as TWS going outside for instruction - that would be great. If he finds a legit teacher. I'd wish him the best. However, he masy find his SD material less and less important as he learned his new stuff. Or, he just gets bits and pieces and layrers it into his SD - which would be unfortunate.

In my eyes no one is 'tainted'. Everyone changes and grows. But it takes a special courage to be able to see and set aside lies that you beleived for a decade or more. I have seen that with the Chung Moo Quan students in my hometown.

This brings up an extra point - some Chinese teachers do see a 'taint' when you do outside arts - for instance I started in Judo and have also practiced Phillipino and Indonesian arts. But I do not claim that these things are CMA. Just stuff that works. Therein lies the difference, I think.

On the other hand, MA is often a social activity as well, and if thats your bag (NOTHING wrong with that in my book) maybe the SD people are cool to hang with.

I'd just be concerned about the willingness to lie and defraud. I just think if someone is willing to lie about some things to get your money, don't you think they will lie about others? The SD organization propagates these lies. Korean martial arts are also famous for this, and the press has begun to squeeze the truth out of those liers of late. Why lie? Unless you hopev to defraud students and milk them for thier money. I am just old fashioned I guess. I still think that honesty matters.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

MonkeySlap Too
06-10-2001, 05:28 AM
If TWS is honest and says what he teaches is a bunch of stuff from a fake CMA group and then other stuff he learned, I agree, he would not be propagating a lie.

Another thought - you become like those you associate with. Do you want to be a lier to?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

The Willow Sword
06-10-2001, 06:09 AM
I must reply to this phrase that you keep using.
(Legitimate CMA teachers)
i have ,,IN FACT,,studied with a LEGITAMATE CMA teacher before i joined the SD school. his name is Eric nessen and was a student of Master JOHN ENG, who taught praying mantis and pakua and hsing-i. i was a private student of his for several years before having to move back to texas to pursue at the time a career in physical therapy. i was in louisville KY (where i am from originally) and where i trained with master Nessen. before that i was a student of CHA YON RYU which is a branch of kim soo karate under the direction of john blankenship,,before that i was studying KI-AIKIDO(seminars and clinics under teachers such as joeseph birdsong ,mark cartwright and others) this is going way back to when i was a teeneager. SO Monkey slap i have a broad experience in japanese and chinese styles.
the fact that i am in a school that blends the two and focuses more on the chinese aspect and lineage fits with what i have been doing....in any regard i know the "LEGITAMATE CMA" world you describe. i truly apologize to you and others who feel so inclined to put SD down and assume that lies are being told to you. If you KNOW these claims to be lies then you must have DOCUMENTED PROOF to put forth to substantiate YOUR CLAIMS.
i want footage of how these lies you say are proved,,, you continue to tell me to go to wushu tournaments or to compete and to open my eyes. WELL MY EYES ARE OPEN MONKEY SLAP ,,SHOW IT TO ME. since you care so much about telling me and others as well SHOW ME THE PROOF. i dont want to hear that the proof is in what he says becuse it is impossible what he claims and all that BS. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SCHOOL SUCH AS OURS TO HAVE LINEAGE AT THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE.. PROVE TO ME THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE LEARNED 900 FORMS/TECHNIQUES IN 30 YRS+ WHEN WE AS HUMANS CAN LEARN AND REMEMBER WORDS AND PHRASES THAT ECLIPSE THAT NUMBER. THEY ARE SEQUENCES JUST LIKE FORMS ARE ,,JUST PHYSICAL, COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS HAVE TO LEARN 10 TIMES THAT MUCH INFO WHEN WORKING WITH CODE AND THEY HAVE REFERENCES TO DO SO,,,,SO TO DO MA MASTERS,,THEY HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN OR ON VIDEO TAPE. re-read my above first post. we will have to agree to disagree on the subject,,but what gets me is that you continue to throw mud in my direction when i dont even judge your styles legitamacy or lineage. it makes you look like another a$$ hole with an ego agenda standing on high with your hard on and your "legitimate cma teacher certification". OPEN YOUR EYES. you are not the only one who teaches kung-fu and ill bet that there are some holes in your lineage as well and some things worth questioning. how do you know that what you have been taught is the "truth or legitimate" ?cause your teacher told you it was so,,cause you read it in a book years ago,,cause you have a document to prove it? cause some little old man in china told you when you went to visit? well monkey we all have documents to prove or disprove it all dont we? lets look into your back ground and scrutinize it, shall we? and we unenlightened souls at SD will bend over for you to follow you in the ultimate grand school that is the TRUE WAY. YES ITS MONKEYSLAPS SCHOOL OF (what was it that you claim to be a teacher of?) help me out here guys,,lets here this guys credentials,,,,,ill bet they are SOLID AS a c/rock arent they? enlighten me to the true way monkey slap.
Many respects,,willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

MonkeySlap Too
06-10-2001, 06:35 AM
First off, I never claimed to be the end all, be all expert. I just think the SD group is deluded. So does just about EVERYONE else who has practiced CMA.

My primary credentials? Chang Tung Sheng to Dr. Brian Wu to me. Chang shia stuff mostly. Bwah-ha-ha-ha. Oh man, I don't really care about lineage, just content, but in the CMA world it does not get more solid than THAT. But then, you SD guys don't tend to care for actual history that can be backed up by other witnesses outside your own group. You know how those funny smart people at universities do? The issue here is that Chang Tung Sheng and Dr. Wu never had to make up stories to get the public interested.

Grow up already. You keep assuming I am some kind of ego maniac. TWS - you don't know me. Don't even to presume to think you do. I am not attacking you personally. I am merely concerned about the propagation of falsehood. 'nuff said.

Your background sounds like fun. So how did you end up buying into the SD party line?

Another thought - you are trying really hard. Doth the lady protest too much? (no cross dressing inference intended. It's a famous quote from Shakespeare. He's a guy who wrote things that OTHER people besides himself and his followers thought was good.)

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

The Willow Sword
06-10-2001, 06:57 AM
and yes CONTENT shows alot in a martial artist but CONTENT does not mean the legitamcy of lineage or forms or how authentic the forms look.
"the propogation of falsehood" still waiting for that PROOF. send it to me,,you can e-mail me,,,,,,, how old are you might i add?,,and how long in CMA's? Also did your masters teach you to disrespect other schools and thier histories? given that what they have told you is the truth. how much money do they make with thier teaching and how long have they been teaching in this country?
the reason i ask is because this solidness that you say you have with your credentials must turn a great profit..... it must be a big school with lots and lots of students following. when did your teachers come to this country? what year?

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-10-2001, 07:39 AM

You so called "research" into Shaolin Do's legitimacy was completely non objective and incomplete. Have you tried asking Sin The himself where he learned the various Taiji styles? Or where the other non-temple arts came from? Many of these were family styles passed down from generation to generation. How could Sin The or his teacher learn all this material and yet not one of these familys will vouch for him?

The Willow Sword
06-10-2001, 08:57 AM
my research was to find out why so many trash his name and school. in answer to your query about family systems. during the tyranny of the chings and the japanese incursions,,many people were killed or fled never to be heard from again,
so shaolin history is sketchy at best, since it was destroyed and rebuilt several times. but that is irrelevant to this,,,,as far as asking grandmaster Sin about where his styles come from.
he clearly states it in his book,,regardless of whether you think it is a false hood or true,,is of no consequence to me. we happen to have a history that traces back to southern temple in fujian. you know all this typing is geting a bit tiresome,,,,lets all CHAT in the CHAT room if you want to,,lets set a time and i will be there and we can talk there so that responses and questions will flow more easily,,,ILEAVE IT YOU GUYS .
Many respects,, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-10-2001, 11:19 AM

1. Trace back to Fujian but nothing in it resembles fujian martial arts. You can spend 100 years learning Shaolin Do and still not understand the basics of fujian arts..... that is a contradiction if ever there was one.

2. In records of fujian (there have been salvaged ones) there is no recollection of the hairy teacher. He has no monks title. Also there were no such things as the number of styles being ridiculously claimed.

3. As an example the taiji is a form CREATED in the 50's so how could it have been in the temple. Not only done ridiculously incorrectly, even a 3 month new student understands more than a teacher of shaolin Do

4. Regarding Mr. The doing it all his life.....well a cook may have been cooking all his life for his family and think he was a good cook and even his family may think so but realistically without the true training he is nothing but a lousy cook who has a family that has become accustomed to the taste!

and much more

Note that "when drowning in mud all one sees is mud and then accepts that mud is all there is ! not realising the world is over and above mud they don't try and get out , they only sink and drown never knowing the beauty of the world"

06-10-2001, 03:06 PM
Yes, and I have all the secret notes and lineage charts hidden away from infidels in my attic passed down to me by my shaggy real estate agent.

You know TWS I feel sorry for you because living here in Lexington I've seen people like you time and time again...some keep their heads in the sand, some move on to legitimate schools, most just become bitter and drop out of martial arts all together. I've seen the horrible karate-like Pakua & Tai Chi, in fact when I asked a 3rd degree SD black belt to show me some combat applications of either style he couldn't, he didn't think there were any for Tai Chi! I've seen your long forms like Si Men Tao Lain, Fei Hu Zhu Tong, Tai Peng Sin Kune, Lohan Chuan, etc. and I'm here to tell you they are not CMA forms and if they where even derived from CMA any similarities and principals have long been discarded in favor of that robot like way you all do your forms. You see in kung fu the forms flow they are not done in the choppy 1-2-3 way that SD does them. Did you know that Sin The used to call his style Karate? In fact his first club was the UK Karate Club founded back in the 60's. It's still a Shaolin Do club today with one of The's first black belts still teaching what they call Chinese Karate. Or how about The's top guy (look in your "Secrets from the Temple" bible & you'll know who I mean)his son is a black belt and a local joke for how many times he's been beaten up. You see the thing is everyone around here knows some body who got a black belt from the main SD McKwoon here and the skills they churn out are of such a low level that they are not taken seriously by anyone, even those not involved in martial arts.
So you see you have a problem...everyone, from all different backgrounds from all different places from all diferent styles are telling you the same thing so either wise up and listen or quit asking because the only people who are going to tell you what you want to hear are other SD people.
Also, it's John Ng, not Eng and I don't think he teaches Mantis anyway.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

06-10-2001, 04:35 PM
I'd love to chat. Name a time and I'll try to be there.

MonkeySlap Too
06-10-2001, 06:43 PM
You know WTS, I never had to pay a dime for my training under Dr. Wu. I paid in other ways, sure, but he never earned any money off of teaching. He teaches because he loves his art. And frankly, I have tried to teach it publicly. It is simply a little rough for the average citizen to deal with.

As this is NOT about me or my 'style', lets look again at your argument:

Sure content is important. The content of your art should reflect CMA principles. SD simply does not.

The hairy guy that is supposedly a Shaolin master? Do a little research and you'll see just how pathetic an attempt at building a false history Sin The' tried.

The other fellows put it best. YOur maerial is not fujian, and often it is a poor version of modern methods. Your history does not hold up.

Decondstructionist arguments do not work. You must supply additional reference that is outside your little group. Otherwise your defense of the SD history is no better than the claim that the Incans and the Egyptians were the same people because they each had two words in thier language that sound the same.

Okay, pick a chat time. I'm game. Lets get all your friends together.

To be honest, I am not pursueing this out of maliciousness towards you. I could care less about you. It is your students and the image of CMA that concerns me.

If you really want history on my 'style' go to David Lin's (not the one that advertises in IKF) American Combat Shuai Chiao Association website. There is some info there.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

The Willow Sword
06-10-2001, 09:53 PM
show me the proof. Now lets drop the subject of the lineage and the history for a moment and lets discuss the forms and the techniques themselves.
my experience goes back before i joined the shaolin do school. in my experience in training and in forms and what not the emphasis in the beginning is to teach the steps in a 1-2-3 fasion,,the forms were given to you in incriments so that you could learn the steps. when the form is taught out in its entirety to the beginner then the student has a base through which he/she can make the form his/her own. most of the students i have seen in SD have not yet been able to round out the square been given to them. when i say that i mean that the square aspect of the form is there for you to round out yourself. now given that our forms are choppy indicates to me thatr they are of a fighting origin focusing on power first then flow later. that aspect takes time to learn. whether its CMA or JMA or a MIX of both, the fundamentals are taught first. the lower forms you speak of in the Sd curriculum give you an area for which to work given your own limitations. this is the way it has been done ans has been the most successful way of teaching a form to anyone. plus COMBAT oriented forms that i have seen in china(home video) are similar to the method that we do them. as for body mechanics in relation to the forms being taught. could you teach a 50 yr old man who has never been in a martial art the dance like forms that his body might not be able to do becuase of age and tightness of ligaments in his body? or would you teach him,,aside from stretching and all,,,a form that caters to his body mechanics? its basic at first then can be rounded out later,,but that depends on the teacher and also YOUR willingness to want to do it as well. i have seen alot of wushu forms and they look real pretty,,but in my opinion have no basis for reality in fighting. remember this is not a wushu world we live in and it is definately not a choreographed movie. All of you can bash the system and GM sin till you reach orgasm boys.
if this is an issue of fighting ability then it only makes my point that all you guys care about is fighting kicking ass and looking cool.
we all support outr teachers and we all are successful at what we do. SO you guys think GM Sin is lying about everything.
WELL Lets chat,,,,,i will be on tonight around 7 pm new mexico time so adust your time accordingly. hey it will just be me there,,whom ever wishes to be there thats cool.
oh and for the correction on the spelling of master john ng's name "thankyou"
many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-10-2001, 10:39 PM
Like Bruce Lee said of JKD:
" It's just a name, please don't fuss over it."
None of us will ever truly know enough about the
Shaolin Arts or if our styles are completely authentic. But through the guidance of our collective Sifu, we can preserve the spirit of
Gong-Fu. And what a hard task it is!

The Willow Sword
06-10-2001, 10:58 PM

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

MonkeySlap Too
06-10-2001, 10:58 PM
Bai He, you are right. But it is not the Shaolin name I am really concerned about. It is CMA in general.

Willow, I like you. I'll do my best to be online. That will most likely be near the end of my commute, so I may be late or miss you. In that case, I'll try to reschedule.

And, I can see your argument. However here are some thoughts:

Choppy to 'dance like'. Nope. Not it. Sure, many styles issue power issueing and teach moves one at a time. But that still does not explain the SD body language. It is just not the same.

Wushu world? Wushu is Mandarin for martial arts. It is also the word for modern performance martial arts. While I agree that Wushu is not as good for fighting as traditional stuff, I know some Wushu guys that would love to try you out. They tend to disagree with you. For that matter, why dislike Wushu when your Taiji set is a recent invention?

JMA and CMA (especially Shaolin) principles don't mix. Training one does not help you to learn the other, no matter what your limitations are. I know a Shaolin guy who had ten years of Karate first. He is the first to admit that after 20 years he hasn't learned how to issue power properly because of his Karate training. (Although he is a tough bird ;) )

The fundamentals of your style should reflect the end result. For instance, do your warm ups work motions that are specific to your style? Or do you practice Western calisthenics?

Also - going back to the statement about learning hundreds of forms: memorizing choreography is not the same as learning a form and really understanding it. The Chinese have a word for practitioners who do not have 'kung fu' in thier forms: Flowery arms, brocade leg. It means you do not know the content of your sets.

I simply do not beleive that your curriculum is sensical. Several of these styles contradict each other in strategy, tactics and body method. You can learn gross choreography, but you won't get the 'kung fu'.

If fighting is all we care about, and you are above all that. Call Shaolin Do something other than a martial art. Maybe Wushu Calesthenics? If you do not understand how to fight with your art, you are not getting the other benefits.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-10-2001, 11:52 PM
How many forms does Shaolin Do have?

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com (http://www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com)

The Willow Sword
06-11-2001, 04:14 AM
there are alot of forms in the biginning curriculum,,but they are very short and to the point. when you reach brown belt the forms get longer and more complex in movement. MONKEY SLAP. what is the proper body mechanics for fighting some one? do you have to be this gyrating video game to fight? whether or not its japanese forms or chinese forms makes no difference. in fact the karate aspect helps witht e focusing of power and the chinese aspect givies it the fluidity it needs to work. ,,,,
i have seen wushu guys go to karate tournaments to prove that thier style is superior and they get their ass kicked,,,,,the karate guy waits and watches while the wushu gut throws out his bag of tricks and then POP!! down he goes.
ive also seen karate guys go to kung-fu tournaments and get thier ass disqualified becuase they were "too rough" on the wushu guys dancing around. i have sparred wushu guys,,alot of darting in and out and in and out,,wasting thier energy trying to act like a tiger or mantis
and POP!! down they go. see my thing monkey slap is hsingi and pakua. i might take the stance of a mantis or something else but when it comes down to the contact thn its no nonsense and BAP! down you go. sparring is fun but it is cat and mouse to me ,,it is vital to beginners but for me (15yrs) into it i take it to the next level,,,AND THAT DOES NOT MEAN AN ALL OUT BRAWL!
GOOD MARTIAL ARTISTS WILL KNOW HOW TO CONTROL THEMSELVES. AS I DO. any way sorry i was not in the chat room i had troublw ith my computer and had to fix it,,but i am back upo and running so lets schedule a time,,,you set the time folks and ill be there.
Many respects,,,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-11-2001, 04:53 AM
All Shaolin do forms move the same way, while true CMA styles all have different princibles of movement for there forms. When you throw them all together into one system and add in karate on top of that it becomes Who were these wushu guys? I mean, where were they competing? Modern wushu players should train very similar to traditional CMA. Honetsly, I doubt you could tell the difference between a beginer level modern Changquan routine and traditional longfist. And modern wushu fighting is full contact. The VERY few modern wushu guys I know of whove fought in karate tournements have dominated. Very Any way, my first wushu coach has beaten both karate and jujitsu guys. Also most modern wushu fighters fight with a kickboxing type style called San Shou. They wouldn't be jumping around like a mantis or monkey. Well, there is one exception that I've heard of. I've been told a tournement in DC was won by a former Beijing Wushu Team member, who used a lot of his monkey style to basically toy with the poor karate guys. It was a while back though.

MonkeySlap Too
06-11-2001, 04:59 AM
This guy is delusional. I reccomend ignoring him until he goes away. 'Legend in his own mind' and all that.

Or - we could invite the SD guys to come play San Da or NHB :) ?

I know a couple clubs that would LOVE to play.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-11-2001, 05:18 AM
Maybe someday ;) I have to let my knee heal first though. Tore my ACL & MCL in forms competition August last year and it's still healing :( Actually a friendly fight would probably do a lot of good to eleminate misconceptions about wushu fighting and we'd get to see Shaolin Do live in action. A couple friends from my wushu class just started the San Shou training(I'm so jealous :mad: )...

The Willow Sword
06-11-2001, 06:31 AM
first of all,,,monkey,,go to your post on reality training and you will get the reason why i went off like that,,it was to prove a point. i am not like that at all.
as for brad,,,,,and for the rest of you,,,,,,
I KNOW that what i have trained in over the last 15 yrs has been solid,,i am a good teacher and a **** good martial artist. i dont claim to be a master of anything. but i can throw down,,and i can meditate with the best of them.
You all will think what you want to about SD and the students teachers and masters.
like i said before these debates on style authenticity and lineage have gone on for centuries before we were ever born,,it's one big ole god ****ed soap opera starring US(as in ALL of us) if any of you ever meet me you will see why i have dedicated myself to martial arts and why i defend the common principles. I am AN internalist. i will be living in TAOS NEW<MEXICO
at the end of the month,,any of you ever get up that way,,drop by and visit(this is NOT a challenge for a fight). i will not tolerate violence and confrontations at the yoga center there OR the park. and niether will the town. my door is always open and i am a listed person in the phone book,,,i have nothing to hide or PROVE
except that most of you are the most disrespectful
people that i have ever come across in the martial arts world,,,,i would hope to have shared ideas and knowlegde and all i get here is trolls and insults. as for monkey slap: continue to do what you do and prosper at it. as i have stated before,,I HAVE RESPECT FOR ALL OF YOUR SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS AND SYSTEMS THEREIN. it would be nice if you all would be the same way towards me and other SD students and teachers who frequent this forum to engage in FRIENDLY communications.
many respects,,Willow Sword(jason bratcher 2nd degree black belt disciple Shaolin-do martial arts academy)

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-11-2001, 06:32 AM
What is going on Willow sword usually you have good info in your comments are you getting fustrated or something? How is someone from a style called Shaolin Do(and with tons of animal forms) going to make fun of the animal styles of CMA? Can you give me a number on the forms? I heard it was over 100 from some people and some say over 900 just want to get my facts straight. Why do Shaolin Do guys always want to start up arguments about their history? They know it will be just a huge mess, maybe they just like controversy.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com (http://www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com)

06-11-2001, 07:48 AM

You asked why people bash your grandmaster and we answeard. Why people don't like him:

1.Grandmaster Sin The has lied about his lineage. The picture of your hairy master is actualy from one of those Ripley's Believe it or Not type publications.

2.He claimed he donated some kind of old tablet to the Shaolin Temple, when one of those tablets can be bought by anybody.

3.You say lineages have been debated for centuries, but there are some lineages which are rock solid. The CHEN family creators of CHEN style Taiji come to mind. Same goes with YANG family, creators of YANG family Taiji. The Yang style I've seen from you guys does not resemble Yang at all.

4.You bash modern wushu yet you practice our forms. You say it's no good for fighting yet one of your senior masters has filmed a video of applications to Taiji 24(a modern wushu form). Also I read an article from your organization in which a group from your school was impressed with a display of "traditional" kung fu(they said it was Ditang) when after reading the description it was extremely clear the form was a very popualr modern form. Yes it was Ditang, but the routine was still modern wushu in it's entirty. Maybe now you can see why I may have sounded a little harsh to you. The statement you made was extremely hypocritical.

There's more but I have to cut this short. I'm losing my conection

The Willow Sword
06-11-2001, 09:28 AM
well first of all i never started anything here.
when asked what i study and my reply is met with the arguments and insult i always defend the school. if no-one else will then i will. as for you brad,,i have studies parying mantis and other animal styles and where as i like the forms and the spirit of the animal forms,,i am not as likely to get into a animal pose to show off or to try and psyche the opponent. as for my "bashing" of wushu,,,all i said was that it did not look to me that it had any reality base to fighting,,how many peple do you know of that ACTUALLY FIGHT LIKE THAT ON THE STREET? dont get me wrong i love the animal styles,,but i am not so gung ho on them as others are. and as for the article,,i cannot speak for that person so i wont. as for the picture of GM su (the hairy guy) as you call him,,,,if your claim is true them send me the link where i can find this picture and find out who that person is. i have searched all over and cannot find it anywhere.
that is the only question that i have about the history and the lineage.
look everyone is soo engrossed in putting us down STOP IT ALREADY!!!! WE ARE ARTISTS TOO. despite what you might think. WE RESPECT THE SHAOLIN WAYS AS we do others as well..dont you people SEE that? how many SD people come on this forum and trash you guys huh? HOW MANY? NONE (that i can recall or have seen. and i dont trash or bash anything,,,,i may have my opinions but my respect for the martial arts ,wushu whatever ,is solid. AND LIKE I KEEP SAYING,,,PROOOOOOVE TO ME THAT GM SIN IS LYING ABOUT EVERYTHING.....I WANT DOCUMENTATION I WANT FAAAACTS,,,SEND EM TO ME.....I WILL BE THE FIRST TO CROSS OVER AND RENOUNCE MY BELTS IN SD IF ANY OF YOU CAN PROVIDE ME WITH THE WRITTEN PROOF OF GM SIN'S FALSEHOOD.
or will it be the same thing over and over again. "the proof is in what he says and claims"
thats not FACT,,that is OPINION,,go to the dcitionary and look the two words up......MAN i Am tired of this guys.....either PUT UP or SHUT THE F@#K UP!!!!!!!
many respects ,,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-11-2001, 11:05 AM
I repeat,

You bash modern wushu yet you practice our forms. You say it's no good for fighting yet one of your senior masters has filmed a video of applications to Taiji 24(a modern wushu form). Why? THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANIMAL FORMS!

06-11-2001, 11:12 AM
As for everything else I'm in the process of locating the hairy shaolin-do master. And I'm going to try and email the Chen and Yang famlies tommorrow.

06-11-2001, 04:56 PM
1. I love the hariy master story. It's the best part of Shaolin-Do. True or not, it's a wonderful metaphor, and just like any master folktales, conveys something that resonates.

2. Anyone can place a stone at Shaolin Temple or any temple for that matter provided they come up with the contribution. Those stones represent financial support, something all PRC post-CR temples need for restoration, although such markers can be found at any significant holy site. I salute Sinte for his early donations to the Shaolin temples.

3. Yes, many lineages are well documented, but that doesn't mean that if one is not well documented it is false. Their are plenty of martial orphans, but they are no less then the rest of us.

4. Wushu bashers can never do wushu. Any real practitioner can see how difficult wushu is, especially those new compulsories. And the line between what is contemporary wushu and what isn't is getting blurry (except the compulsories of course.) Sometimes I think wushu bashers are just old stubborn practitioners who can't run, jump or move very quickly, but that's probably overly vindictive.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

06-11-2001, 06:20 PM
My main problem with Shaolin Do is Sin The's claims. He claimed to be the Grandmaster of Shaolin. Shaolin Do also butchered perfectly good chinese styles. On the website it says their mission is to preserve the Shaolin arts. I really don't see how removing important aspects of the Art that makes it CMA and replacing it with Karate princibles preserves anything.

MonkeySlap Too
06-11-2001, 06:46 PM
Well, I'm looking forward to Brads input. I am way too lazy to continue this.

I pretty much agree with Gene. Gene, you are one hell of a guy. You make your point without forcing it.

Willow, maybe someday we can get together and criticize each other. YOu can tell me I'm not flexible enough (old injury) and I can tell you you are using Karate bio mechanics. You can tell me what I do isn't Shaolin and I can tell you that your forms don't really work together on principle. Or something. Who knows. Even better, I can grab some of my boys and challenge you to a paint ball match. Which might be more rewarding.

I would think the universal disaproval of CMA practitioners would be a hint, but I think Brads stuff will add some fuel to this fire. I guess if Sin The didn't come across like a BS artist and called his art something different, no one would care. But hey, I'm thinking of renaming my practice 'What?'. That way I'm not bothered with labels.

"What do you practice?"


"WHAT do you practice?"


Willow, you guys might want to try this too.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-11-2001, 07:01 PM
I haven't had any personal problems with anyone on this board until TWS. Actually most all Shaolin Do practitioners I've met on these boards have been nicer than most MA I've met from other styles, I'll give you that. I get kind of fired up about on the subject of fraud, because I've gone through this kind of stuff first hand. And the styles looked a LOT like the Shaolin Do material. I will agree not to call Shaolin Do outright fraud until I have solid proof (proving anything beyond reasonable doubt is HARD! Just look at the OJ trial ;) ). I still feel very strongly that there is something fishy going on with that organization, and will continue to look into it. If you want to help answear some of the questions people have about Shaolin Do we could try to work together if you want. I'd be willing to forget your modern wushu coments, and I promise to remain civil :)

06-11-2001, 07:12 PM
Yeah, Gene's a pretty cool guy :cool:

I'd like to aproach this from the standpoint of historical research, not a criminal investigation, which means looking into all claims from both sides of the argument. And this would mean working with Shaolin Do.

06-11-2001, 08:02 PM
monkeyslap & brad: Thanks for the kind words. Now please read my magazine :D

Actually the thing that amazes me the most about the Shaolin-Do controversy is that it gets so much attention. How many threads do we have on this forum alone? The fact that it is so controversial is fascinating to me.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

06-11-2001, 08:31 PM
As I stated before I have the misfortune of residing in the city where Sin The' first started teaching and the main Shaolin Do (Sin The') gym is here as well. I have first hand knowledge of the system and some of it's top belts. People here are very familiar with how Sin's claims have grown by leaps and bounds through out the years we've heard the fairy tales on the radio and read them in the paper. I find it interesting that his older students all know and will readily admit he makes up tall tales. A lot of these guys met him in the 60's before he started making all these claims and before he started learning forms from video tapes and they were there when the propaganda machine began rolling. You'd be suprised to know how many of his older students have broken away from him because they can't deal with the lies anymore.

I have no respect for Shaolin Do, nor do I take anyone seriously as a martial artist who is intelligent and mature enough to seek out the truth on their own, yet like TWS hides their head in the sand. Since everyone and his grandmother here has purchased a black belt from Sin The' I can also say with certainty that the vast majority of Shaolin Do students couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. Many think they can but that doesn't usually last too long when they spar another CMA before they see the light.

If you like Shaolin Do and it's all you need then fine but don't go looking for validation from others because you're not going to get it. Keep in mind what people have tried to tell you next time you are rebuffed by a CMA because they find what you do & say to be both crap & offensive.

Don't you find it odd that the Shaggy GM who supposedly never left the temple and died early in the 20th century is wearing a 50's era western suit in his black & white photograph? A fellow who got a black belt from Sin The back in the 80's (before he wised up) told me that was a picture from an old Guiness Book of World Records of a mexican guy who had that disease. :rolleyes:

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

The Willow Sword
06-11-2001, 09:04 PM
go back and read all of the posts i have made,,aside from the one where i try to make a point to monkeyslap i have been quite civil and courteous. one can be like that only so much before getting stressed out at the insults and the conjecture. as for modern wushu, i do not do it. i am not flexible enough to perform the acrobatics that wushu has,,i leave that to the young and flexible. i am young and i am flexible but i do not have the acrobatic skills. those things you have to start when you are young. when i talk of wushu i mean what the PRC has adopted as thier national competition martial art. it looks beautiful,,hey i loved crouching tiger /hidden dragon just like the next guy. GENE
as always a refreshing break from the insults and bashing. i will admit to all of you that there are questions about the lineage. but what is being taught is Solid in my opinion,,,,it has not tainted what i have learned before.
as for the picture of GM SU. please send me the picture or the link,,,,,i think that will be the deciding factor in the whole mystery shrouding
who that person is,,,,,now i have seen similar but recent photos of a dogboy circus act from mexico,,but the picture is recent as in 1980's. i discoverd itonline but then when i went back to it it was gone. i will search as well.
my mind has been racked sensless over this guys.
i dont know what to believe anymore with all of this. suffice it to say that i am tired. but i am still a loyal SD disciple,,and until i get the proof that i need i will remain "my head in the sand" or "delusional" or whatever else all of you call me.
many respects,,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

MonkeySlap Too
06-11-2001, 09:11 PM
I do read your magazine!! I've been reading your missives since you did content for the WLE catalog. I really like your POV in your pieces, and Qigong KungFu certainly tries the hardest to offer up fine material as oppossed to the 542nd Bruce Lee retrospective or the life history of actor wannabes who have so far accomplished little.

I am the master of the run on sentance!

No, really good work.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-11-2001, 10:36 PM
Yes, I've been wondering what era that suit is from. I'm going to try and locate some kind of historian to ask.

Also there's an entire family in Mexico that has had this genetic disorder for generations. They actually appeared on one of those morning talk shows. I forget which one. I think I was home sick from school that day. I sent the pick to the Ripley's Believe it or Not people, and am waiting for a response from them.
I'll have to check out those Guiness books at the library.

I think Shaolin Do gets so much attention becuase it's a huge organization. Acording to the map on their site, 50+ schools scatered across the U.S.!

06-11-2001, 10:39 PM
Brad, I'm a beginning student, but I'll be GLAD to answer any questions that I (or my teacher) can to help in an impartial examination of SD. BKH said that he heard somewhere that the pic of GM Su was from a Guiness book...and I've come to believe that he'll pass on ANY negative info he gets about Shaolin-Do, proven or not. I lived in Lexington for 4 years (U.K. alum) and I know that SD was the ONLY CMA I heard anything about during that time, maybe that WOULD bring about hard feelings for the other CMA teachers in the area as BKH has himself stated. I can understand that. Finally, the idea that Shaolin-Do uses/adopted karate principals is an opinion of TWS...and was presented by him as such. He's got a lot more experience than I in SD...but, I took Shorin-Ryu myself for a while and it's not similar to THAT style of karate.
Shaolindynasty, my teacher fights/spars using stuff from his tiger forms. The majority of SD blackbelts tend to focus on specific sets or styles after going so far into the system. My teacher has focused on tiger...I believe TWS has focused on one or more of the internal arts. The Willow Sword is the first SD student I've seen to actually INITIATE a discussion about SD specifically, and he said it was for an article. We're all just nice folks looking for friends, not controversy! :D
Gene well said as usual. It's cool that you can put your differences with Grandmaster Sin aside and speak respectfully of him and his students.


06-11-2001, 11:26 PM
Perhaps, as always, some FACTS would elevate this discussion......

There is a second photo of "Su Kong" in the private collection of Hiang The. The authenticity and age of the photo has been verified by graphics professionals and an archivist photographer..

MonkeySlap Too
06-12-2001, 12:09 AM
What archivist photographer? What graphic proffesional? What qualifies them?

Why is there no record of this 'monk' if he died in China?

You know, I'd get a real kick out of this if there was some validity to all this. But I remain doubtful...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Ground Dragon
06-12-2001, 12:50 AM
I have heard from multiple people that that picture has been found in books, the source usually identified is a P.T. Barnum book (bei kong identified a guiness book as well). I asked one of these people point blank the name of the book one time (who had said hed seen it with his own eyes), and he was unable to provide it, nor has anyone else. For so many people to have seen it, it's unusual no one remembers the name. I researched this one myself on the internet and the public library and was unable to find anything. I found a lot of other cool stuff though, but without forking over money to purchase all the books available out there I had to leave it alone.
I'm inclined to believe there was a Su Kong, but as with everything else, there was probably a grain of truth to it and then Sin takes it and makes it something it's not. There is a village of people afflicted with hypertrichosis (the disease causing the hairy condition) in China. He may very well have existed, just not in the incarnation Sin says.
It makes for a great story though. The whole part about seeing his reflection in the water and dedicating his life to shaolin.
I hope that part is in the movie. ;)

06-12-2001, 01:11 AM
read WenJin's post,The Willow Sword.

I myself have been wondering what proof does Sin Thé have that what he is teaching does come from the Shaolin Temple.

As for me, I believe anyone who says their martial art is "too deadly" is full of it. on the SD site, Thé says SD "is too lethal for tournament use".
It also says "we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve". Is that Buddhist philosophy?

Joseph ChoL

06-12-2001, 01:36 AM
Thanks for your support over the years - it's really gratifying to know you have followed my meager work.

It's my understanding that there are actually two Shaolin-do organizations, that there was some sort of political break that split the practitioners in two. Neither faction has more than a hundred schools - I was told it was much less. If this is true, Shaolin-do is not such a behemoth, but many of its detractors would have us beleive there are thousands of them. Anyone know the scoop here?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

The Willow Sword
06-12-2001, 02:06 AM
the split has to do with the old students of GM sin. i do not know the exact details but from what i have heard it is a messy affair. frankly it is none of anyone's buisiness. MAN,,,GUYS,,,i am tired of all this,,i have said what i need to say on this matter. i have donr the reasaerch on the picture and i have come up with nothing as well. so i am going to go on the belief that this is GM SU. i dont presume to kow all about martial arts and i do not profess to be a great fighter or master....i am just another one of you guys who is proud of what they are doing and will continiue to do it........i have come to realize that all this posting from everyone ,,including me has no basis on reality anyway,,,we can saty whatever we want to say. unless it is face to face who is to say who any of you are and what you actually do. links to websites/ profiles dont mean a thing for anyone can do ANYTHING to perpetuate anything. i will continue to post but on other subjects and offer my views on things regarding martial arts//internal and the like. just know that i have not hidden anything from anyone and who i am is what i have stated.
you have my e-mail adress here,,any further comments or info on this matter i would appreciate personal mails insted of this "MOUTH BOXING".
i will also allow phone conversations as well. but only if i feel comfortable with e-mails i receive from those who post here.
radhnoti: we can chat.
monkey slap: so can we.(given that it is civil)
GENE CHING: definatelty we can chat( i would love to be interviewed)
i feel that i can speak alot better aboout things rather than posting them.
others: we'll see.
with that i conclude: many respects to you all; The Willow Sword(jason bratcher 2nd degree black belt SD school)

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-12-2001, 02:11 AM
[QUOTE] As for me, I believe anyone who says their martial art is "too deadly" is full of it. on the SD site, Thé says SD "is too lethal for tournament use". [QUOTE]

Also note that they hold tournements. Seems kind of odd.


I think the other faction is headed by the Soards(sp?), but I don't know why they broke away or any other details about it. I seem to remember a thread on here about around when I first started posting here.

Ground Dragon
06-12-2001, 02:55 AM
The two brothers split apart years back, but they had taught separately before.

I think the split you were referring to Gene is between the SDA and the Soards. From what little I know, the controversy comes from the Soards changing the material. And not just a little bit, but by adding new sections and changing old ones. There also must have been a big to-do over the tablet bought at the Shaolin temple. If you ever get to read what it actually says, it mentions the Soards first and then it mentions Sin The' at the end, sort of like an addendum. It appears from reading it the tablet was bought on a trip the Soards took there in one year and then another inscription was added on a trip they took there with Sin at a later date.
There's definitely some bad blood there from what I understand. I'm sure some SD students would have better input on that than I though.

MonkeySlap Too
06-12-2001, 03:54 AM
So what do the Soards call themselves now? Sorry Willow, but I get a kick out of these stories. What is the scoop?

No matter my opinion on Sin The', I do not appreciate a teacher being treated shabbily. Breaks do occur, but you would hope it would be for a reason other than ego or money.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-12-2001, 05:07 AM
I usally don't like to judge styles but Shaolin Do is getting mre hilarious to me every day. I just did a search on the book you guys keep talking about and the cover has a picture of a guy in a gi doing the "crane" stance from Karate kid and the only reviews of the book where written by Shaolin Do students. Anyway

Willow sword- The reason people attack Shaolin Do so had is because they are misleading students. This has been said already so maybe this story will help clairify. In my town we have this guy who had Muscle scerouses(sp?) and he learned different forms of internal work and now he is doing much better. He teaches at the same Park District building that me and my Sifu teach at. The problem is that what he is teaching he calls TaiChi. He said he created a new style called Sung style from what he learned in Yoga, Taichi, and Qigong. I watched his class one day and nothing he does is similar to TaiChi. He does only some joint rotations and light stretching. He had the phrase "Tai Chi for Wellness" and "intergrative Qigong" trademarked. He is all over the place here and people believe he is legit. So that means most of the people in this town believe that TaiChi is only joint rotation and light stretching when anyone who has been exposed to real Taichi know it's much more. He is decieving people and cashing in on a marketing tool "TaiChi(buzzword) cured me". People are still being helped but they believe they are learning TaiChi when in fact they are not. That is where the problem is with GM Sin is. He may be helping his students a little(probaly not nearly as well as they would do elsewhere) but he is decieving people and taking advatage of people who don't really know what shaolin is. This is the reason nobody in the CMA respects him. He would have done much better being completely honest because the wheel of life will keep turning and he will reap what he sowed.

p.s. Gene is just being nice to you (probally buisness reasons). As a martial artist he probally has the same opinon about Shaolin Do as the rest of us.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com (http://www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com)

06-12-2001, 06:23 AM
The problem with proving this to non martial artists is no one can seem to agree on what real Shaolin is. Of course while most experienced CMA guys will say something odd just by watching SD forms, the only way to prove fraud to a beginer or non MAist is to prove somebody's telling lies. And most good frauds try to get around this by making thier history/lineage obscure and untracable.

The Willow Sword
06-12-2001, 07:19 AM
the soards run the "Chinese Shaolin Center" out of boulder colorado. they also have schools in some of the south west states and other areas.

shaolin dynasty: i remember ,,not too long ago a chinese man from hong kong coming over and preaching his way of martial arts to people and he was put down by almost every martial arts authority in this country. he went on to fight in tournaments and prove his skills and developed his own style of martial art,,and still he got steam rolled by every martial arts authority in this country...he was discovered by hollywood and went into films and still he got flack from just about every martial arts authority in this country. he later died mysteriously and his loyal students continued on his name and school.
im sure you guessed who this man was,,his name was BRUCE LEE and he founded the JEET KUN DO SCHOOL,,,,a break from tradition and from his school and master.
dont you think that this guy in his studies has found something unique ans wishes to teach it to others? sure it might not be AUTHENTIC but the roots are still embedded in the Auhtenticity of what he learned.
How do you think the other martial arts have been created? they were ideas brough about by masters who learned the classics and then discovered thier own way and now we have arts such as praying mantis eagle claw,,monkey,,and all the other systems that chinese and japanese martial arts have. of course they had to be proven in combat to work,,and legitamized by those that dominated the what was in style martial arts at the time. The acceptance was also in that the new style could kick the old styles ass and therefore was accepted.
in answer to the "being too deadly for tournaments" well its exacly that,,,,,they dont allow you to gouge eyes go for the knee or full force kick the groin or punch to the throat. these are all survival tyechniques that tournaments even UFC wont allow. the torunaments that the SD school has are closely monitored and strict rules are applied but they diminish what the intent of the training is about and it is about SURVIVAL,,not points and not full contact sport karate or kung-fu. there are boundaries there which i am sure all of you are aware of. there did not used to be such boundaries in the old chinese tournaments,,too many people were getting killed,or very seriously hurt.. things have scaled down now in terms of this.... what SD at least tries to accomplish is to keepo the survival aspect of the arts alive and well and not alot of fancy mess and routines that lead nowhere,,,,,,as of course ole bruce tried to teach to everyone........
many respects ,,willow sword :cool:

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-12-2001, 08:05 AM
well I am joining briefly this passionated discussion to give, I hope, some elements.
First I got to know this topic after some "heated propaganda" on CyberKwoon.com forum [then ALMA] about how great Shaolin Do was and how Sin The was the real Shaolin Grandmaster.
Because I was completely unaware of this group, I made my research, found several documents related to the history of Shaolin Do and from there draw my conclusion, and so far we have been "preserved" from any other "raid" from SD or the Soard group.
As I am not in the US MA business I can speak a bit more freely than Gene ;-)

Fact 1 : Shaolin Do is NOT related to Shaolin. By that I mean there is no connection between the ONLY shaolin temple [Songshan, Henan, China] and Shaolin Do.
Linking SHaolin Do to the SOUTHERN Shaolin was very smart because no one ever knew much about it. Most of the information we have come from Chinese Novels, now that the Chinese Government FINALLY "rediscovered" [hmm is it "built"?] the southern temple, I am sure that it will serve as a proof for many, outside China ;-)
When Mr Sin [according to Chinese standard that should be his family name] arrived in US, he was doing some kind of Karate-like style, with Gi, breaking demo and square-blocking.
That doesn't mean he was doing karate at all, many "schools" at this time have been heavily influenced by Japanese MA. Just have a look at Vietnamese arts, and some indonesian arts. No mention was made about "shaolin" at that time.
From what I saw [press clip] it produced quite good fighters / MArtists at this time.
On the certificate granted by Mr Sin's grandfather, there is no mention of shaolin neither.

Fact 2 : The amazing Hairy master probably never existed. Why "probably" because it is very hard to prove for sure that something DOESN'T exist. During my travels I asked many renown MA researchers about such a person, which without doubt should have been at least quite known in the community, realize that we are talking of a period close to the 10 tigers of Canton and Yip Man ;-) Surprizingly, no one even ever encountered this "hero" in any document. Some kind of super ninja maybe ?
The picture often presented [I only saw one, with the suit] is from a P.T Barnum's book. I saw it in my youth, published in France and I was 9-10 years old. It may have been re-used for other book.
Maybe the picture is just a "representation" of a master and not the actual image, maybe the "legend" of the hairy master covers "something else", as Gene said it has more implication than just a "nice story".
But that Grandmaster Hairy is unknown in the Canton / Fuzhou area.

Fact 3 : The curriculum of SD is "boosted" by incorporation of forms from other styles. most of them completely unrelated. So SD is a HUGE Chopsuey, martially speaking.

Fact 4 : the Tablet in SHaolin is nothing else than a money donation to the Songshan temple by the Soard, later the name of Mr Sin was added. The English line read something like "the shaolin temple is grateful to Mr Sin" [from memory, I believe that one picture I shot, with Hemin digicam, of this tablet is floating around the web]

OK that's pretty simple. Now that doesn't mean that everyone doing SD is delusional and will never achieve good kung fu. Some teachers in this school seem to demonstrate many enthusiasm so it's a good thing. Again it's not much the style, but those who teach and learn.

CyberKwoon.com Forums (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/forum.php)
Martial Arts Databases

06-12-2001, 09:14 AM
The Southern Shaolin Temple is no fabrication - my Sigung trained there as a young man. I have also visited the original site (before it was rebuilt).

And yes, my Sigung trained there before the Communists came to power.

Back to the original topic, I think that the claims made by Sin The are pretty tall. My feeling is that the art he teaches is not genuine Shaolin as he claims it to be.

What we do in life echoes in Eternity

06-12-2001, 04:27 PM
Well ffab, that was one of the most polite "attacks" SD has received on these boards...I can certainly see the cyberkwoon influence in your writing. :D Grandmaster Sin makes no claim of a connection to the modern Shaolin temples...in fact, I'll admit, he's a bit dismissive of the current inhabitants. GM Sin and his brother "americanized" their names upon coming over. Sin The' and Hiang The'. "On the certificate granted by Mr Sin's grandfather, there is no mention of shaolin neither." Well, I've posted what SOME say is a certificate of advancement from GM Sin's "grandfather" and it does mention shaolin. "Chung-Yen Shaolin Kung Fu School" to be exact, but the authenticity of MY document is highly questionable. Any chance of us seeing YOUR documents?
dragon797, any chance of you getting a copy of that photo? That would be nice. Thanks for chiming in.
Grounddragon, I've not heard the "reflection in the water" story. Want to tell it?
Gene, the only "break" I know about is between the brothers...I don't think Hiang The' has 50 schools, but it's possible I suppose. The Soards still credit Shaolin-Do and Sin The' as their "boss" on their website, that's all I know about them.
Most seem to agree that the term "Shaolin" has grown and become more than a single style. Cho and ABandit, is it that Shaolin-Do doesn't have the "feel" of your styles that makes you certain it's not a shaolin derived style? How so? I mean, after all, karate is a shaolin derivative, right? :)


06-12-2001, 05:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> is it that Shaolin-Do doesn't have the "feel" of your styles that makes you certain it's not a shaolin derived style? [/quote]

I think they like the rest of us feel that since the common principals shared by all Chinese Martial Arts are missing from Shaolin Do that the "connection" with Shaolin is in name only. Also, I think most Karate stlyes were derived from Fukien White Crane then mixed with Okinawan martial arts, with the exception of Shorinji Ryu which is a karate style derived from Shaolin by someone who actually (& verifiably) studied there. I am not extrememly knowledgable about Karate so I'm sure somebody will let me know if I am wrong.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

06-12-2001, 06:19 PM
Fair enough BKH, I'm really too new at this to comment on flow, technique and such, maybe TWS could add a bit here.
So, here's my follow up question: do you think it's IMPOSSIBLE that shaolin-do could have evolved from material taught at the shaolin temple?


06-12-2001, 06:43 PM
The point of my story was that even though the TaiChi guy was helping people he was also lying to them. By him saying he teaches TaiChi he is misrepresenting TaiChi. Think if a student who has only heard about TaiChi goes there to learn "martial Taichi" and looks at what he does. Even though he may be helping his students he my also be making people think wrongly about TaiChi. He should not try to call it anything that already exsits if he created it himself. This is where your Bruce Lee analogy is flawed, Bruce never claimed to be teaching anything but his own style Jun Fan Gongfu and Jeet Kune Do are completely original names. He was not misleading anyone(he did not have to actions speak louder than words). Maybe GM Sin is helping hundreds of people but he would be more respected if he just told the complete truth about what he is doing. It wouldn't matter if he taught the greatest martial art in the world he is still lying. The documents don't prove anything. I believe that he may have started with a legit Shaolin style(some fukien styles are "karate like") then started adding new things to hold on to his "top" position.

And stop telling us to give you concrete proof or documents to prove Shaolin Do is fake. We actually don't care enough about him to do so. Everyone in the CMA world knows he is fake.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com (http://www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com)

06-12-2001, 06:46 PM
I don't trust anyone who claims that Teen Wolf is part of their lineage.

Hehe...Just pulling your leg.

Soup is good food.

06-12-2001, 07:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> do you think it's IMPOSSIBLE that shaolin-do could have evolved from material taught at the shaolin temple?[/quote]

Very few things are impossible only very improbable. I have a copy of Sin's original (pre-video) curriculum which I don't believe is Shaolin at all. However, some of the later stuff looks like some of the WuShu forms that get called Shaolin these days.

Rad & TWS answer this:
1)Why are the weapons and weapons forms taught to pre black belts okinawan?
2)In an old b&w film I saw they call what is now the Chinese broadsoard kata a Samuri sword kata. What happened?
3)How can you be any good at any of the myriad styles you are taught when none of the underlying principals are taught along with them? For example: You do Tiger style & Mantis supposedly yet you do none of the conditioning or specific drills or exercises a true Tiger or Mantis stylist does, why?
4)When I first moved here I visited Sin's gym and saw people doing spear forms with an eyebrow height bo that had a spear head attached to it. Again none of the basic CMA spear movements were apparent in the "kata". Same thing with the meteor hammer and other weapons.
5)Why is the Tai Chi form you do the modern Communist version as opposed to genuine Yang style?
6)Why was Sin's TV show on local tv here and his first book called Karate?
7)Why does Sin have a throne in his gym?

Just a few ?'s off the top of my head. I'll think of more I'm sure.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

The Willow Sword
06-12-2001, 10:16 PM
answer to question 1: the weapons that you mention that are japanese like the nunchaku and the sai(which are the only ones that are there that are japanese) have an interesting history if you bother to look at what those weapons actually are. they are farming tools, the sai is actually a doctored up version of a hand worked till for planting rice. (used througout the asian world back in the olden days) the nunchaku are actually rice beaters that were used to beat the rice out of the hulls(these are peasant weapons used to defend against swords and long weapons) the fact that japan has capitolized on these implements does not mean that they are of japanese origin only, just as japanese karate has its roots in southern china.
2;i do not know the answer to that one. i joined the SD school in 94 and i have seen old footage but it was from the 80's.

3:we in fact do have drills and conditioning for the mantis training. the other training we have is a rigorous basic skills training that focusues on our muscle power and flexability. these classes are taught on a sunday in texas and are basic drills and also specific conditioning to the styles we teach. i have a broad based knowledge of the styles. the ones that i am proficient in are mantis, hsingi and pakua. also the drunk is what i am currently working on.
4;dont know too much what they do at the lexington gym,,i assume its SD. as afar as what i have done in texas,,,my spear goes well above my head and i am 6'2. not many have the ability to really weild the spear,,,,,,,i can. i would assume that the eyebrow hieght spears are used when in doors for i think that they do not want any more damage done to the ceilings or each other. we learned that lessom in texas,,we do spear forms outside.
5. modern communist TAI-chi: well we have not yet recieved our official maoist doctrines yet on this alleged communist tai-chi you say we do,,,,as i understand it we are doing yang style taichi and we also do chen as well,,i only have on chen form that i love (buddha fist)
the others are the short and long form. you know i have seen soooooo many variations to tai-chi and i think that to call yours or ours or anyones taichi not true taichi would be like saying that all flowers are not true flowers because they dont look like a rose,,(whats a true taichi form?
6;well my answer to that would be; karate is what most people associate martial arts with. back then kung-fu was an unheard of term and only discovered to us about 30 some odd years ago, even if this tv show was done in the 80's you also have to look at the region where gM sin started his teaching,,,Its Kentucky for christs sake! hey i am from kentucky and i will be the first kentuckian to say that our state is so ass backwards and also hick/redneck that if you went around saying you studied kung-fu(at the time) you would get a 'whuuut?" and then your ass kicked by a bunch of hillbillys.
7;well i have not seen this throne but if there was a throne or big chair in the place, HEY
the grandmaster has gotta sit somewhere. most of the time it is in a litlle chair in the back quietly watching. i have tested in the lexington gym and when i teseted for 2nd degree black GM sin was standing the whole time.

anyway i hoped that i have answered your questions. doin the best i can amidst all this
many respects ,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-12-2001, 10:29 PM
Well, you let me know how much you don't know about kung fu at least.

1)I know what these weapons are I also know they are not chinese martial arts weapons and are not used in CMA. Do some research.


3)How can multiple styles use the same conditioning and training methods? Oh, wait-they don't except in SD.

4)Quite a few folks can wield the spear just not SD people. I like the thought of an indoor version too bad it would totally contradict chinese spear forms.

5)Do a little more research. The PRC remade Yang Taiji for the masses in the 50's. That's what you're doing. Don't believe me? Go to the Yang Families website and ask them what they think of SD's forms. Bet you won't like the answer.

6)I've only been here for 10 years but I know there have been plenty of legitimate martial arts schools here they just don't grandstand like Sin The'.

7)Yeah, when a friend of mine's 15 year old brother tested for his 2nd degree Sin was on his throne. What was really funny was that they had to keep moving the buckets they were using for the leaky roof out of his way as he recited his dance movements.


"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

06-12-2001, 11:45 PM
Is this the bhudda fist form you are talking? If it is that is not Chen Taiji in any way, shape or form. In fact it share next to nothing in common with any Taiji style I have ever seen. It really looks like someone tried to learn ballet from video and try to turn it into a karate form(without ever learning karate)

I recognize(sort of) two moves of Shaolin Do's 64 Yang Taiji form (peng, lu, ji, an, into single whip left) from the Yang 40 competition form I learned. Of course the Yang 40 form isn't really Yang style either(There's a thread where GLW talks about this, I'll ry and find it later). There seem to be so many exagerated/added/un-necesary movements, I could barely recognize it.

24 form is simplified Yang style(I think some movements may have been used from other styles though). It's a simplified Taiji form created in 1956 based off of Yang style intended as an intro to Taiji Quan and it's also used for competition. Shaolin Do teaches this form. It's also one of the official standardized wushu routines.

[This message was edited by Brad on 06-13-01 at 02:51 PM.]

The Willow Sword
06-13-2001, 12:57 AM
BKH i find your comments to be less than respectful and if you wish to keep getting replies from me i suggest that youtake a more respectful tone as i have been respectful with you.
i actually know ALOT more about kung-fu than you realize but i will not go into that.. the weapons are japanese,,given..like i have stated before,,in MY OPINION,,what we teach at SD is a hybrid system with roots stemming from southern shaolin temple in china. there are some japanese elements to what we are doing. iT works.
Brad: just because you do not recognize the form does not mean that it is not chen style,,besides that is only a portion of the form in that video,,,,as for master mullins, you have no idea what the man is capable of,,,he would just assume break your neck than discuss with you about the ins and outs about SD,,he is pure tennessee country hick and is not very inclined to be as respectful with you as i have been,,,think about it.
Many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-13-2001, 01:21 AM
It's not Chen Taiji. I am 100% positive on this and feel any non SD Chen Taiji man would back me up. Have you ever even seen a member of Chen family perform their Taiji?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> as for master mullins, you have no idea what the man is capable of,,,he would just assume break your neck than discuss with you about the ins and outs about SD,,he is pure tennessee country hick and is not very inclined to be as respectful with you as i have been,,,think about it. [/quote]

I'm not exactly shakin in my boots

I may not know how good of a fighter he is his "Chen Taiji" is not Chen Taiji. If he could make my head explode at 100 paces using his internal energy, it still wouldn't be Taiji. Have you ever seen non Shaolin Do Chen Taiji?

06-13-2001, 01:29 AM
My ballet coment may have been disrespectful, but I think stealing a family's name and sticking it on crap like that is more disrepectful than anything that could posibly be said on an internet forum.

06-13-2001, 01:38 AM
Does anyone know web address for the officail website of the Chen family?

06-13-2001, 02:01 AM
If you want me to be nice you could try answearing some questions for me. In fact you keep ignoring the question about 24 form. If no one here knows answears please ask your teachers!

1.Where does Sin The claim 24 form came from?
2.Where does your the Chen style come from?
3.Where does your Yang style come from?
4.What kind of sparring do you guys do for tournements? Point sparring? San Shou? What are the rules?
5.How old is Sin The?
Could you please post that pre-video curiculum you have?

MonkeySlap Too
06-13-2001, 02:41 AM
Sorry Willow, but that video pretty much proved my point about SD. You seem like a nice guy, and if you want, email me and I'll send you a tape on Chen Taiji.

That was NOT Chen Taiji. Personally, I think the Chen family would be outraged by this. I particularly like the introduction of 'sempok' and 'dempok' (poorly done) from Silat into the 'taiji' form.

Mullins is welcome to prove himself at any time. He may be a tough hick with a bad attitude, but he ain't no Chen taiji stylist, I see that with my own eyes.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

MonkeySlap Too
06-13-2001, 02:45 AM
Looking at more of Mullins.

Willow, this stuff is NOT CMA. I'll give Mullins his due, maybe he is dedicated. Maybe he's tough, but his SD is not CMA.

The proof is really with you. Prove that this is real CMA. Because it just isn't.

Sorry guy. I know you want 'respect', and I respect you as a person, but I cannot respect what your organization is doing to the CMA name.

And frankly, your posts do tend to show certain bits of info missing in your knowledge of CMA. No offense. It's not a bad thing. It is just not CMA.

Sorry, but I think the burden of proof is on you.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Ground Dragon
06-13-2001, 05:07 AM
"te weapons are japanese,,given..like i have stated before,,in MY OPINION,,what we teach at SD is a hybrid system with roots stemming from southern shaolin temple in china. there are some japanese elements to what we are doing. iT works"

I don't dispute what you say here, TWS, but keep in mind this is not what Sin The' is claiming. He claims everything he knows and teaches comes straight from the shaolin temple. You may recognize and admit some Japanese influence on the style, but Sin The' claims an unbroken, undisturbed lineage straight to the temple. And that is why so many people have a problem with him, because he simply doesn't stand on what he knows and instead trys to make himself and the style out to be something it's not. If he didn't do that, this would be an entirely different discussion.

The Willow Sword
06-13-2001, 06:02 AM
how can we be disrespecting the CMA name when chinese martial arts has soooo many different styles with in the framework of its matrix? in fact,,we have the utmost respect and reverance for the CMA and I personally have the utmost respect for ALL MARTIAL ARTS. Our group is in CHINA right now as we speak paying homage to the temple and visiting chinas glorious sites,and treasures. you People seem to think that all we do is sit around and make up stuff and ride on the shaolin name. WE DO NOT. every school is different in our organization,,even though we teach the same curriculum. The school that i am coming from happens to be one of the more populated schools and is very successful in Austin. why? becuase people like what it teaches and they support the concepts. All of you make too many snap judgements on everything which makes me believe that most of you on these posts are teenagers or even younger. it does not bother me,,,,,and even if some of you ARE adults,,you are acting like teenagers......when it gets right down to it,,,,if GM sin's organization was a total fake and fraud he would have been run out of buisiness by now,,,but the fact is kiddos,,he is STILL HERE. when he was at a very vunerable point in his carreer when he went bankrupt and almost lost the gym he could have been fininshed then and run out of town.
He has survived it all despite ALL OF YOU. So lets get BALLSY here folks,,i mean that is what we are trying to Do here right,,POSTURE OURSELVES AND REPRESENT OUR STYLES AND SCHOOLS AND LINEAGES.
CALLING THINGS THEY ARE NOT: just because that it does not "look" like what you have studied.does that mean it isnt what we claim it to be,,,,,,how many chen Taichi teachers are there in this country and in china? how many YANG?

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-13-2001, 06:27 AM
ok, I'll ask you a very simple question. What would it take to prove to you that the Bhudda fist form is not Chen Taiji?

06-13-2001, 06:49 AM
If I made up a bunch of forms, used the Shaolin Do name to make myself popular, and claimed to be the true inheritor of Shaolin Do you would be pretty ****ed wouldn't you? Now would it all be ok even if my students learned quality self defence and were nice people? Plus the fact is you could never prove I'm a fake because your average judge & jury wouldn't know a ****ed thing about martial arts. One other point, the only other 2 frauds I know of were found out not because the public saw that their martial arts sucked, but because they did something illegal not related to martial arts. I believe Chung Moo Doe's leader went to prison for tax reasons. They're actualy still around, making money despite being listed as an official cult. My first teacher did something much worse and is still out there taking peoples money.

06-13-2001, 07:16 AM
How about I answear your qouestion, then you answear one of mine? Then you ask another one etc..no name calling, issuing challenges, or any of that. sound fair?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> how can we be disrespecting the CMA name when chinese martial arts has soooo many different styles with in the framework of its matrix? [/quote]

I feel Shaolin Do is disrespecting the Chen family for putting their name on something which is clearly not of their creation. This is a familly that has been taching their creation for around 400 years in their villiage. And yes, all Chen Taiji looks visualy similar.

06-13-2001, 07:33 AM
Yes Karate was derived from the Chinese arts, but it doesn't claim to be Shaolin, neither does any Karate Grandmaster claim to be the inheritor of Shaolin Kung Fu. They also do not market themselves as wanting to keep the Shaolin tradition alive because they are clearly practicing an art that has been changed from the original, and can no longer really be considered Shaolin.

And no, SD doesn't look like any Shaolin arts I have ever seen. Even its monkey form and Buddha hand form look completely wrong. I watched the broadsword form and was horrified at some of the stuff he did. The crane form looked nothing like crane, and the tiger form was pretty average too.

Again, as I have said numerous times, this could be more because of the guy on the video clip than the style, but from what I have heard it is probably the style.

What we do in life echoes in Eternity

06-13-2001, 07:50 AM
TWS: Well, that sounds better than here online. Unfortunately I seldom get out that way, but not for lack of trying. I'll get to Taos someday. they tell me it's a land of visions.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

The Willow Sword
06-13-2001, 08:39 AM
from what i know of the buddhist fist form is that it is of chen style origin. i agree that it does not look like traditional chen style tai-chi.
CHen style tai-chi is taught at the school but i do not have the chen form,,i chose to learn buddha fist,,,,. it is one of my favorite forms.
i would like to show you how I do the form. master mullens has his own way of doing things and we dont question it. i have trained with master mullins and he is extraoridinary when it comes to these forms. the videos do NOT do him justice. the man is in his late 40's and can still do acrobatics like you would not believe.
The man also has Power,,i know first hand.
he is a bit (as we say in texas) HONERY,,,but he is a good man and dedicated. i have all the respect in the world for him.
Take a step back now ALL of you and ME as well. and breathe. how much chi and energy have WE/I wasted in this debate.
my only wish here is to engage in friendly discussions about martial arts. i would like to see this post conclude now and all of us go to more productive things here in this forum. i want to still be able to post my ideas and thoughts on subjects with out scrutiny,,SD is NOT my only experience in the martial arts world.
i would just like to be treated with the same respectthat i have been treating all of you. i have said my thing i have stated what i need to state about the organization i am a part of. i am my own man and i am bound TO NO-ONE. buti honor my school and my previous teachers. THAT IS ALL. Many Respects WILLOW SWORD :)

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-13-2001, 02:58 PM
TWS- You're hopeless my friend. If you ever come back to KY I will be happy to show you the truth. As for Mullins he may be "honery" or what ever but he doesn't look like he has a clue. I mean c'mon he's leaning against a wall in one of the pictures in that article that he had recently published. As for him or any other SD people kicking our asses I seriously doubt it. I've fought SD people and have yet to find one much of a challenge and many of my kung fu brothers have made a career of crushing SD students enough so to even cause the rift between the The' brothers, ask your master about that, hmmm? In fact I've never seen a SD person win anything when competing against non-SD martial artists.
My school has Vale Tudo every Saturday and anyone is invited to attend even SD people so let me know and we can arrange for you to test your skills against top level fighters who actually compete in cage matches as opposed to point sparring.
Also, how would you have us "bring suit" against Sin The? He's totally evasive and doesn't answer direct questions. Many have tried to confront him here and he threatens legal action or some such BS. He even sues his own students who question him. If anybody here needs to be questioning Sin it's you because he has made a chump of you. Sorry, if what we are all telling you has shattered your illusions but, hey, you must be a gluton for punishment because you keep coming back for more. I still say you should go to the Yang family web site or the Chen family's and ask them what they think of Sin.

Brad- You too can learn SD's amazing Chen Tai Chi in fact you can learn an entire 83 posture form in less than a day.
"Chen" TaiChi (http://www.shaolin-do.com/events/seminars/20000319.html)
Just make sure you use your awesome powers for the good of mankind! ;)

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

06-13-2001, 04:02 PM
I guess all I can say is on one of your China trips you should arrange to stay in Chen villiage for a while and actualy talk to some Chen family member yourself. They might even let you spar or make corrections to your form.

06-13-2001, 04:39 PM
I've decided to bow out of this debate until I get some new info. It's extremely hard to debate with someone who refuses to answear questions. I'll continue to look into Shaolin-Do 1.because the whole idea that someone is passing that stuff at CMA drives me nuts. 2.It's only a matter of time before they show up here in Ohio.

If I find anything out I'll let y'all know.

06-13-2001, 09:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> many of my kung fu brothers have made a career of crushing SD students enough so to even cause the rift between the The' brothers, ask your master about that, hmmm? [/quote]

I'm not sure exactly what event you are referring to or where you got this info BKH, but here's a story that may be related. This is first hand account from when I lived in Lexington.

Shortly before the The brother's split in the early 80's, a dozen or so students left Sin's Sports Center for the Four Seasons club formed by John Ng. One of these students even made quite the grandstanding speech at a black belt meeting on his way out the door about the "skills" of his former classmates. The ones that left were students of varying abilities, and were partly lured away by the offer of more material than was being offered by Sin and Hiang at the time. But they were also turned off by the nazi-like control some of the senior students were trying to maintain on the group.

However, the Four Seasons group didn't do themselves any favors when they showed up at a The tournament and jeered from the bleachers throughout the demonstrations. Towards the end of the tournament, this group came down from the stands uninvited to join in a black belt "war" where a circle of 6 or 7 black belt students would spar each other all at once. Hiang was running the tournament and initially resisted, but then let the Four Seasons group join in. I wouldn't exactly call what I saw "crushing SD students". The Four Seasons folks initially attacked the SD students from behind and were not pulling their strikes as is the custom in the SD group for this demo. Once these new contact "rules" were established, however, the FS group was well handled by the SD group. One was even a female SD student who repeatedly swept down a FS teenager of asian-descent who definitely got more than he bargained for. The most frightening act though came from John Drefrense. He found Bill Leonard, who was not part of this war, off to the side of the gym and hit Bill with a spinning back fist to the temple from behind--a cowardly act IMO--dropping Leonard to his knees. Once Leonard recovered, Hiang faced the two off one on one in the middle of the gym. Leonard fought on one leg (he had been injured in a fall during an earlier demo with Hiang, but that's another related story) and although neither man got in a knock-out blow, Leonard had a cut on the bridge of his nose, and Drefrense required hospital treatment for blows to his neck. It really turned into an embarrassing melee for all involved and was just another blow to the brothers' relationship. I have read or heard various inaccurate accounts of this day, and I'm sure the Four Season's version is different, but Hiang has a videotape of this tournament and of the events I have described. And no....I don't believe the tape will ever see the light of day.

There are many other, deeper reasons for the brothers' rift, than this tournament, though.But that's a post for another day. s ;)

BKH, if I were in your position, I would probably feel the same way. Some of the Shaolin-Do folks can be very arrogant with their claims of being THE martial arts system and robotic in regurgitating the brain-washed, party line. But not all. There are some good folks there. When John Drefrense first joined Sin's group, even though he had previous martial arts training, he dutifully started at white belt and began to work his way up. When he would try to add some of his previous experience to the training group, he was dismissed and treated poorly by a faction of the club. Understandably, John left, followed by the others, and were branded as "outlaws" and "traitors."

If I studied in another style, lived in Lexington and had to deal with Sin's claims, I'd probably consider them bogus and refute them as well, especially if I had trained or fought with some of his disgruntled ex-students. But that does not mean that all of the material itself is worthless or that all those who practice it with the right insight don't benefit greatly from it or gain real fighting skills. I've seen many in Hiang's group that have been working quietly for over 20 years in Hiang's system, and many are excellent martial artists--as anywhere, there's average to very good among them. But they have to deal with criticism from both sides-- being considered "black sheep" from Sin's group but then are negatively associated with Sin's group if they go out in the martial arts community. That's why his group has kept a low profile and until recently, did not try to open the club to beginners. I invited some of Hiang's students to attend a seminar in my city, but they just didn't want to deal with the hassle of having to explain themselves. I know Hiang's group doesn't have anything bad to say about other styles.

What if someone from your style left the group, started his own club, altered or added material, and then claimed it was THE original, upsetting everyone around. You'd not like it, but the material YOU learned doesn't all the sudden become worthless. If we are debating whether a martial art looks "Chinese" then that's a different discussion. Do you think someone created the complex Tai Peng bird system of 18 forms plus applications that Hiang teaches out of thin air to fool the masses? Does the fact that we don't know for sure if it was created IN one of the temples or from someone who had studied AT the temple make it less Shaolin than another Shaolin form? I don't see any Japanese, Korean, or Okinawan styles doing bird forms. You could not watch someone do one of these forms properly and say it was not authentic. And because one might teach nunchakas to beginner students so that they will remain excited about martial arts long enough to learn the an "authentic" Shaolin weapon later, it doesn’t make the curriculum "un-Chinese."

I have addressed you BKH in my few posts to this forum because, despite our disagreements about some things, you seem to be a person of substance rather than just flaming. I can understand how you have informed your opinions by being in Lexington. Please check out a question I have posted in the Training and Health area about full-contact and injury. With your experience and association with MMA, your opinion would be valuable.


MonkeySlap Too
06-13-2001, 11:18 PM
I am still waiting for the check in with the Chen or Yang families.


Guys, I just look at the footage and I wonder...This is just like the Chung Moo Quan thing, only maybe not as reprehensible. Just sad.

Oh well...I'm waiting for that defense of SD claims and methods.

WTS has given me an idea - would having statements from the Chen and Yang families be acceptable in court? Is Sin The' open to fraud charges? Could a class action suit be possible? Hmmm. I'm gonna look into it...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

MonkeySlap Too
06-13-2001, 11:19 PM
I would also like to see the tape if any of the 'SD' masters enter the Vale Tudo.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-14-2001, 12:12 AM
What exactly does Hiang The teach? There's quite a big difference between teaching your own unique system and claiming to be the Grand Master of Shaolin and teaching poor imitations of other people's styles.

I think the hard part with proving fraud would be prooving that Sin The outright lied. Sin The could just claim he was just teaching what his teacher taught him. What I think would be sufficient evidence would be

1.Testimony from numerous experts with proven credintials like Chen Xiaowang(Chen Taiji)
2.Testimony from his brother on what they were originally taught(good luck on that one)
3.Video of both the Shaolin Do version and traditional version of some of the styles they claim to teach.
4.Prove that Sin The used a published photo for the "Dog Faced Monk" (this could also get him in trouble with who ever might own the original).
5.Also testimony from experts on Chinese history.

I think if one could put all this together they would probably have a strong case. The biggest problem in taking someone to court though is money for good lawyers.

MonkeySlap Too
06-14-2001, 12:24 AM

how can we be disrespecting the CMA name when chinese martial arts has soooo many different styles with in the framework of its matrix?

By misrepresenting those styles and familes. That is where the disrespect comes in. Just because you call a rock a pig, and you've convinced other people its a pig, it is still not a pig. Not matter how much you wish it so.

This is not disrespect. Respect in this fine country is earned. If anything, the SD group has offended many in the CMA community with thier claims and well, the weird karate/ bad CMA mix that the stuff looks like - all the while claiming it is pure Shaolin. Yikes. The disrepect overflows. Although if Sin The' did not claim to be the Shaolin grandmaster and offer his wacked out claims, no one would care what you guys do. It is hard to respect a fraud. Nothing offered up in defense of Sin The' has convinced me otherwise.

Calling us children because we dare to confront a liar is a poor defense at best.

Claiming you are too dangerous, your skillds above the meager arts out there...yah,yah,yah. I've gotten my hands on more footage of SD. There is nothing special there. Go try yourself at some Vale Tudo or San Da and see for yourself.

No one wants to think they are wrong, or can be fooled. But the bigger shame is to keep letting yourself be fooled.

So prove to the CMA community that you are not frauds. Prove it in a community of your peers. And stop offering up how 'dangerous' your art is or how proving your skill in safe arena's is a matter of ego. Just come out and play.

I mean this in a positive way. I am sure many SD practitioners are fine people, and dedicated practitioners. Come and see what else is out in the world...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

The Willow Sword
06-14-2001, 12:40 AM
it is interesting the account that you bring up for my previous teacher was a student of john NG.
and he has told me of this account as well. HE LIke MYSELF has never really been interested in what who claims and what is what and all the beurocracy. master ERic and i have run a parallel course in that all we have wanted to do was to study and get as much as we can. i constantly defend the art and the teachings at SD. As far as the claims,,,,i could care less,,,,,it really doesnot matter to me,,,what matters is that what is being taught works and also works for me,,IT DOES. i have never stated that SD is the TRUE art despite what other students has claimed,,,,i am not that naive. AS far as what is the real thing or not,,it only becomes REAL when you have to use it to save your life. other than that it is just theory and sequences and tournament tested fighting,(which in my opinion is NOT REAL fighting because a life is not at stake) what is at stake at tournaments is EGO. and i have no interest in tournaments or competition.
sd tournaments that i have been in have been interesting to me,,there are point sparring matches as well as continuous sparring (which is based on judges choice) in both i have seen folks get hurt which ,for me substantiates GM claim that what we teach is too deadly for tournaments, the quote is abit grandious i know but when you consider that we do not train to score the point,we train to survive a hostile attack. in fact this is good training for me right now listening to all of this prattle...it helps me to survive the future BS i will get should i ever come across folks who have enough gaul to get in my face and say that me and my art is full of crap. believe me when i say that it is a different story when this is presented to you face to face,,,,,,we can pretty much get away with saying anything here for the internet protects our identities and who we REALLY are.
of course as for myself i have not hidden who i am ,,where i am and what i do, even though my screen name is willow sword.

dragon: who are you? please e-mail me with who you are,,,,do you still train with john ng? is HE still teaching? am i totally wrong on who i think you are?
many respects,, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-14-2001, 06:39 AM
Willow Sword- How could you not care? These people are taking your time effort and money to teach you a bogus art. I don't understand how you could not care about ridiculus claims of your GM Sin. No matter how much you may believe in your art or it's ability to help you what "GM" Sin is supposed to be teaching is not Shaolin or Taichi. Wheither you like it or not this is your problem you are training in one of his schools. I saw the vids and can now confidently say I know why you didn't what to trade vids with me. It must be really embarsing to train in a fake art. No offense to you though you are a great guy. :rolleyes:

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com (http://www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com)

06-14-2001, 06:44 AM
As for your"challenge" to those who call your art fake, well you know where to find me just check my websites link at the bottom of my post. (This is the internet people you can't issue challenges here we are across the country this kind of talk makes you look foolish).

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com (http://www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com)

06-14-2001, 07:42 AM
Brad said: ". 2.It's only a matter of time before they show up here in Ohio." Here's something he might like to see...or not, heh.
www.ohioshaolin-do.com (http://www.ohioshaolin-do.com)

Might help you in your research, why not drop by and ask them a few questions?
ABandit, I respect you as one of the most intelligent (and prolific, holy cow! 1390
posts!) voices on these boards, but it seems to me that "shaolin" practicioners argue about who has the "true" shaolin style WITHOUT bringing my school into it. You might say (perhaps appropriately according to TWS) that SD doesn't look like any other shaolin arts. But, as far as I know, Grandmaster Sin has never said that his is the ONLY inheritor of the shaolin legacy. The way I see it, GM Su passed the TITLE to GM Ie, then GM Ie passed it to GM Sin. Maybe, for some reason I can't fathom, he believes (or was told) that this title gave him the right to give orders to folks from other styles claiming a shaolin derivation. Other folks on this forum seem to indicate that he has done so, but I've not seen it happen...so I find it hard to credit.
Brain....locking...up...too....many....questions.. .to....answer....can't take ...the STRAIN!.... :mad: :o :eek: :D
Sorry, everyone is posting like crazy trying to trip poor TWS up. Shaolindynasty has gone from chatting like an old friend, to attacking him with cries of "fraud!". Which is pretty funny when you look back at his original posts, when he felt TWS had given him an insight into the history of HIS art. He even went so far (unless I am mistaken) as to state that, yes, some of his moves were "karate-ish" as TWS had described his own style.
MonkeySlap Too said: "Respect in this fine country is earned." I have no idea who you are, therefore I can't respect you or at least feign respect? Forgive me for doubting that this is an attitude instilled in you by your chosen martial art, and your teacher. According to you what I'm learning is worth very little...well...at the very least my teacher has told me to try to treat EVERYONE with respect. I may be new to the CMA's, but even I know that respect SHOULD be important. Just a few of my thoughts. :)


MonkeySlap Too
06-14-2001, 06:33 PM
Respect can have several meanings. You can show respect. I am actually pretty well known in many martial art circles because I am always polite and eager to learn from others. But showing respect does not mean I have to respect someone or thier art. Just because someone puts up thier shingle and makes a claim, I don't have to 'respect' thier claim. It is up to them to prove that they are telling the truth. If we treated everything the way you and WTS want us to treat SD, we would all be driving Studebakers that 'only' have 30,000 miles and were 'only' driven by a little old lady to and from church. Respect is not always courtesy. I do not see any reason to tolerate falsehood.

WTS - no one is talking about point sparring or 'continuos' sparring. I agree with you and would go a step ****her and say these things are bad for your practice. However, San Da and Vale Tudo are great for your practice. True a few 'nasty' things are forbidden, and you don't want to 'kill' your opponent, but these are still valid tests of your skill. THey are also great drills that prepare you for real fighting. I know this from experience. Even everyones favorite source of quotes, Bruce Lee, said "If you want to swim, you have to get in the water." You'll be better off if you don't hide behind the 'I'm saving it for a real fight". This isn't marriage. No point in going into battle a virgin.

WTS - I also noticed that instead of answering ANY of the questions, or approaching the Yang or Chen families, you have resorted to threats about what would happen if anyone came to Taos. What happened to wanting only discussion and being above needless conflict? Is confronting the truth now making violence the only solution for you? HOw quickly things change. Or is this another 'trick' where you will say you were trying something else and were 'only kidding.'

Again, I'd suggest some Vale Tudo or San Da. There is nothing to be afraid of if SD is as 'deadly' as it's own press releases say. Personally I'd love to see some of it applied against someone who can actually fight.

I think that there is also an attempt to seperate the 'lies' from the 'skills'. I do not think you can do this. After reviewing more SD material, I have to say, the two are interelated.

So go talk to other CMA experts. The Yang family, the Chen family. Find out for yourself.

The claims come from your group. Prove them.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-14-2001, 08:44 PM
I am not calling Willow Sword a fraud just "GM" Sin :) I also am attacking Willow sword because when he was giving me "insight" he said his style was 108 step(which I noe learn it is Shaolin Do). I am finding it interesting that every form or style that Shaolin Do teaches can be found in popular books and videos. Yes I did say some of the movements in the begining levels of my system were "karate like" but after watching those Shaolin Do videos I'd say that Shaolin Do IS KARATE(bad Karate at that).

Witness the Dynasty!!!
www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com (http://www.shaolindynasty.itgo.com)

06-14-2001, 09:15 PM
The best lies have some truth to them.

WTS, or and SD practicioners here:
I read this entire thread, I don't & am not gonna get in the middle of this & I wasn't gonna post anything, but guys, you've had the wool pulled over your eyes somethin' fierce. If you can't see that, then oh well....and I think ShaolinDynasty sorta hit the nail on the head on page 4, I think Gene is being professionaly curteous about his views on SD.....i could be wrong but I doubt it....

I mean no offense people, but c'mon now... :rolleyes: :o :confused: :confused:

06-14-2001, 09:53 PM
Monkeyslap Too, I'm glad you agree that politeness is important. I'm pretty interested in your offer of comparison with Liu Ha Pa Fa, and I hope someone who has studied it in Shaolin-do takes you up on it. I guess it makes sense that SD as (probably) the largest school in the U.S. teaching CMA's would come under attack from other schools. But, let's face facts, a SD student could come in and show an incredible knowledge of Liu Ha Pa Fa and the "legit head of the style" could say, "Fantastic! Well done! If only I could approach such magnificence!" And the next day someone would be challenging the tai chi portion, or the mantis. It would just take one "failure" of the student and the critics would all say, "AHA! I knew it! Fraud! The dishonor of it all!" :rolleyes: When you combine the pointlessness of comparison with the possibility that the "judge" could be less than impartial...I doubt that any SD student (or teacher) would come forward. I may be wrong, heck, if I knew it I'd come and show what I know just for the learning experience...maybe someone will take that healthy attitude. We'll see I suppose. Why not ask a tai chi teacher to meet with TWS and let TWS evaluate how well HE does? You might say, "Well, gee, that would be awfully insulting to the tai chi teacher." I agree. Maybe that's how the SD Liu Ha Pa Fa teacher would feel. You want to hold Shaolin-Do to a different standard, and you feel it's our student's or teacher's job to somehow prove the style. I respectfully disagree. ;)

Shaolindynasty, I read the posts between you and TWS. If you re-read them you'll see that TWS NEVER said he was a 108 step practicioner. He simply delved into his knowledge of CMA to suggest a link between your style and 108 step, mentioning that a portion of his style might have been influenced by the same. Re-read the posts, they can't be changed, they are now as they were then. It's a shame you decided to close a door of possible learning just to jump on this forum's bandwagon, by attacking something you've only seen on realplayer.


MonkeySlap Too
06-14-2001, 10:42 PM
It would never get close to being a matter of good or not, I am willing to bet it isn't even Liu Ho Pa Fa. Not even close.

I have watched footage of your masters. They have all been deceived or are willing participants in a horrible lie.

The question won't be 'is this good liu ho pa fa, but is it even liu ho pa fa.' LHPF is an art that has very specific principles. You can't FAKE it.

But I guess you can steal the name and take peoples money.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-14-2001, 11:19 PM
i'll never practice shaolin-do, unless a nice shaolin-do practitioner wants to learn about what i learn, i would have him show me stuff out of respect. i don't believe in disrespecting anyone for their chosen art, martial or not. it's about self expression. what do you want to express? what do you want to learn? not shaolin-do. but hey, there's a lot of things i'm not into. why do shaolin-do guys want respect from us? if you are looking for respect, show us what you have, we'll show you what we have. i wish Sin The wouldn't lie, it seems his grandfather learned some southern style that may have something to offer the MA community. there are southern styles similar to karate, that's where it came from. shame these missing links are sometimes missing for good, because someone has the need to seek fame for something he's not. instead he deceives, claims things he's not. i've never seen him or met him, but have seen his instructors. they practice something different, that is fine, and sometimes good for some people. ok, don't call it something it's not. even well respected Kung Fu masters sometimes tell a story with a twist to make them look better. famous Hung Gar master. famous Wing Chun masters. do they have something to offer? yes. do you have something to offer? don't know, never met you or Sin The. what if I practice Chen Taiji? are your Chen stylist gonna teach me something that will improve me? have you seen Chen Taiji performed by a Chen family member? i'm not a Chen stylist but i see a major difference. these masters have worked hard for generations. they made Kung Fu their life. They passed it on. of course they get offended when someone says they know their stuff, then teach it to a lot of people (wrongly by Chen standards). ok, what if i started a school, called it "Shaolin-Do Chuan". then when i had some black belt students, i sent them out to start branches of "Shaolin-Do Chuan". pretty soon, people are like "shaolin, I heard of that from Wu-Tang Clan's music" or "the t.v. show Kung Fu" or somewhere else. they are attracted by the name. so they come in great numbers where their is not many kung fu schools, or even where there are good ones that don't say "Shaolin" in their title. Then i teach dancing, combined with western boxing, and teach them self discipline and respect for others. i say i learned it from a student of a monk of a temple in china, a long lost cousin of Sin The. no one can prove me wrong, Sin The has cousins somewhere probably. so then authentic Shaolin-Do students see my stuff, and say that's not what we are about, please don't use our names for your material. but my students are in great health, can throw a decent punch, and are very nice people. i go on to make claims that offend many shaolin-do instructors, but my students are happy. would you have a problem with me? or would you say "more power to you, indirectly insult my instructor and Shaolin-Do brothers, but it's ok because you have nice students that are doing "something" that they love. tell me that. if you have something to offer, offer it. don't tell us what you practice is what we practice, unless we practice shaolin-do. it's like comparing a Honda with a Dodge. the Honda is more fuel efficient, more compact, etc. the Dodge is a gas hog, has a ton of power, etc. different people will want different things depending on their needs and wants. ok, continue to spread your art. it's a lot better than some hobbies people have. therefore, it has something to offer. but we, as Kung Fu people, have what we want. but not always. so offer your art, I am happy with mine, and if Shaolin-Do was appealing, I would study it. so offer your art, i respect any one who dedicates there life to an art form. but don't push it on me or my kung fu brothers. don't ask us for respect of your martial style as authentic Kung Fu unless you want to do what we feel will prove yourself. ok, it's an art form. ok, it's not Kung Fu, it's not Karate, it is it's own unique thing. so say so. don't criticize Wushu guys, they know it is a sport. they don't claim to be something they are not. but also, San Shou is a part of Wushu. they train to fight, with rules yes. can a Shaolin-Do guy, who studied for five years, beat (in a real fight) a San Shou guy who has trained hard for five years? i can guarantee i can't beat Mike Tyson with my Kung Fu, even though i could kick him in the nuts, poke his eyes out, etc. he would clober me because he trains hard to fight. i might stand a chance, if i use kicks and avoid his strong points. would i fight him, in a real fight? hell no. i know what i am, i know what my kung fu is, i am not too deadly to use it. if you are too deadly to use it then you are too dead. i don't believe in useless killing. i would rather stop an attacker without killing him. you want to kill someone in self defence? buy a gun. please, keep your art for those interested. and on a personal note, i've seen the stuff in boulder. my cousin was gonna learn there, but couldn't afford it. did i say, "don't go there, they ________(fill in the space with any rumor)" no i didn't. i said " maybe i can show you some stuff when i'm around." because i know that for him, with his general interest, would benefit from learning there. he would feel good about himself. a student of my art needs a great deal of self-motivation and dedication to learn it. it's not for most people. it's hard stuff. the results are slow at first. but, it's for me, not for my cousin. so like i said before, keep your art to those interested, good luck with your training and i wish you success as a teacher (honestly). hey i love how you stand up for your art, you are truly a great Shaolin-Do man, even if i disagree with you on what Kung Fu is.

06-15-2001, 01:34 AM
Very cool post shaolin_knight, I think I agree with everything you said. The only place I SLIGHTLY differ from your views would be with your analogy of someone teaching shaolin do chuan. It is my understanding that there is NO specific style of shaolin. In fact, on these boards I've seen MANY folks attack the legitimacy of the people now inhabiting the shaolin temples...and others (like Gene) defending them. Shaolin seems to me to be more of an ideal, or a historic place, or even just a lineage. There's no "governing body", no "controlling family", heck, I don't even see a clear consensus. :) Everyone saying that shaolin-do insults "legit" shaolin is just...strange to me. What other mad shaolin practicioners mean to say is, "Yours ain't like mine, and it should be 'cause we got part of the same name. You're the most obvious target, but I'll get around to correcting everyone else soon enough." :eek:
Maybe it's just the alarmist in me. :D


The Willow Sword
06-15-2001, 08:35 AM
i have not issued anything other than a warning NOT to come to my town with hostile intentions or negative intentions. and when i say that it is a whole different story when you are face to face is not isuueing any challenge to anyone....you know what i think,,i think that those of you who would like to take a crack at me are trying to insinuate
that i give into your BS. NOT GONNA WORK!
so i suggest that you cease what you guys are throwing at me. whether or not you think i am issuing indirect challenges is your own ignorance, NOT MINE. put the hard ons away boys for it is of no interest to me.
enough said,,,,,,,,,,,,Many Respects Willow sword. :rolleyes:

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

MonkeySlap Too
06-17-2001, 08:13 PM
Sorry Willow, I think I spent too much time in the Chinese community. It was very easy to misinterpret your email...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

06-19-2001, 11:40 PM
Do you ever go the the Chinese Shaolin Center in NM? Same lineage and same training. Just curious to know your name too. As I have been there quite a few times. Studied there for 6mo then left after attaining 1st brown. I have a friend who is Tiger-Crane Hung Gar that went there for 2weeks and left laughing at both Sin The and the Instructor (Abrahm(?)) Seems when he sparred the brown and black belts he was always putting them in positions they just could not get out of. After witnessing this spectacle I thought better to just leave altogether. I do not have any better training than anyone else out there in the world, but effective vs defective matters in fighting, in training, and in life. It's not personal against you, but rather the GM and the lineage.

06-20-2001, 01:04 AM
I studied for 4 months and got up to brown. I found the forums and the truth, and felt way too uncomfortable going back. I went back, because I had a video that I had borrowed. I told one person who started with me to search the internet, and his eyes would be opened.

I now train under Shifu Solow up in Boulder, CO. (Hung Mei Pai, very traditional school) I'm just glad I found out the truth now, and not 2 years from now. I would have either quit MA all together, or remain ignorant in the Shaolin-DOn't system.

Instead of paying gobs of money to learn fake kung fu, I am studying the real deal for the entrance cost to the rec center.

06-20-2001, 02:01 AM
The 8 Changes of the Palm is a internal arts system that combines an ancient form of Taoist Chi Kung Training known as "Walking the Circle" with the Buddhist tradition of using animal inspired movements for self defense. The art originated on Wu Tang Mountain and until the late Ching Dynasty (1644-1912), the art was virtually unknown outside of Shao-Lin Temple. Students will learn the "Original Form" of Pa Kua Chang and some fighting techniques.

Check this I got this from a SD site!

06-20-2001, 02:15 AM
basically this is entirely not true as the system of Pa Kua was not even shaolin at all! It was an outside MA that has a deeper root than even Pa Kua's own history has. The person who teaches a complete (traditional(?)) system of Pa Kua (baguazhang) is Park Bok-Nam and some others with genuine credentials, but not Sin The... He advertises this as if he knows the whole deal and the secrets within! I dunno

06-20-2001, 04:55 AM
Hate to bust anyones bubble but Master 'The had flaunted a plaque claiming that the people at shaolin said he was a true shaolin practitioner until some people that actually could read chinese started calling him out since it was something else.

That plaque was just one of the many souveneirs that are sold to tourists.

"Always be ready"

06-20-2001, 05:18 AM
This post will contain some pretty strong language, so those who are sensitive to that sort of thing should just skip over it.

I just got my issue of Inside Kungfu in the mail... You can guess my reaction when I found out that there was a rather extensive article about "Hua Style" by some Shaolin-Do lackey. I am sick and tired of all this "Shaolin-Do is REAL Shaolin kungfu!" bullsh-t people keep posting on these boards. If you were really open minded to the whole proposition that Shaolin-Do is a fake martial art (I shouldn't even say proposition, it is a FACT), then all of the proof presented in the previous threads would have changed your mind. Let me present the most obvious (and, to me, the most ****ing) evidence against Shaolin-Do:

It CLAIMS to be nothing less than the sum of all knowledge of the Fukien Shaolin Temple Martial Arts. Shaolin was a ***BUDDHIST*** sect. Why, then, does Sin The teach not only non-Shaolin martial arts, but non-Buddhist martial arts?!?!! He claims mastery of styles that have NO RELATIONSHIP WITH SHAOLIN KUNGFU WHATSOEVER. Taijiquan is a TAOIST martial art style. It is rooted in Taoist principles and the Taoist methods of chikung, which are ***VASTLY DIFFERENT*** from the Buddhist/Shaolin methods of chikung training. This is a big issue with me, because anyone who knows anything about chikung knows that using different methods can be very damaging. Taijiquan was never taught in any of the Shaolin Temples. Neither were Pakua and Hsing-I, which are both derived from Taoism as well. Again, both styles use Taoist methods, and both have nothing to do with Shaolin. The temple at Wudang was NOT A SHAOLIN TEMPLE. IT WASN'T EVEN BUDDHIST, IT WAS TAOIST. What kind of incredibly moronic dumb@ss do you have to be to not understand this??!?!!!? Sin The claims that his only teacher was Ie Chang Ming, the so-called "successor" to Su Kong Tai Djin (or however the f-ck it is spelled), who was supposedly the head abbot of the Fukien Shaolin Temple, even though no records of him exist (and yes, this is important, because other, non-head-abbot monks are well known...surely at least ONE OTHER PERSON had heard of this great head abbot, right?). If this is true, and he was supposedly taught only Shaolin kungfu, why the hell does he teach non-Shaolin stuff? Who did he learn it from? Why does he teach the Taijiquan forms created by the National Sport Assocation of Communist China, forms created in the middle of the 20th century for the purpose of sport competition? I'll tell you why, because HE IS A FRAUD. Godd@mmit, why can't you stupid Shaolin-Do people understand this?!!?!? Not only does he teach non-Shaolin stuff, he teaches the WRONG SH-T. HE CAN'T EVEN FAKE THE RIGHT FORMS! You cry and whine about how Shaolin-Do has this and this and this, but you ignore the simple facts that are right in front of your eyes! Even if Shaolin-Do supposedly teaches the concepts of ging and chi and all this other crap, what makes you think it is the real thing? All of these ideas are well known! Go read a book written by any legitimate master. They talk about that sh-t all the time! What makes you think that Sin The didn't simply say "oh, so-in-so says in his book that Shaolin kungfu is supposed to have 'this'...let's add something in Shaolin-Do about that and say that it is 'this'"? I've seen Shaolin-Do ging. I've even read their descriptions about it. IT IS BULLSH-T GING. IT IS NOT THE REAL THING. I can say I know chi sau and teach you some funny exercises that I made up in my head, but does that make it chi sau? NO. Alright, I'm sick and tired of having to repeat myself over and over and over again to you people. If you really wanted to know of Shaolin-Do was real or not, then it would be so blatantly obvious to you that you would leave. Instead, you defend your fake art with its fake grandmaster. I don't give a rat's @ss whether or not YOU THINK it is real and YOU THINK it helps you. The simple FACT OF THE MATTER is that it is FAKE.

And yes, I am in a bad mood.

06-20-2001, 06:50 AM
Yes, that guy certainly seems NOT to care what we think...a whole lot. :rolleyes:
I'll skip over the whole "Why would Buddhists practice/invent a martial art" arguement I've read a million times on this forum. Thank heaven this um...anonymous poster with...um...an inflated sense of importance was able to show everyone the way. Wait! This was you QUOTING someone else, right Inquisitor? I'm sure it was, YOUR attacks are much better, in my honest opinion.
Northern Mantis, not wanting to fight here, but what makes you think GM Sin lied about what the plaque said or the importance of it? Sure, I've seen pictures of the plaques on several SD websites, but I've never seen anyone lie.
Voodoocat and suffObeast, welcome to the forum, nice to see you both agree and have found someone who exactly echoes your sentiments on the forum. Maybe you two can start a club...call it, "The Bandwagon" and see who else will jump on...I've already seen quite a few willing to climb aboard that have never even SEEN a SD school. It'll be a blast! You can start every meeting with the pledge to attack shaolin-do with every chance. Discuss in what way this week you've discredited or just hurt some poor SD teacher doing his best to impart all he could to his (previously) happy students. And finally, you can wrap the meeting up with the ritualistic burning of Grandmaster Sin The's picture while chanting, "NOT CMA! NO GOOD! NOT CMA!" Wait a minute...I think I hear Inquisitor and BKH running to sign up! Really...I think we're on to something here...

Sorry if this came off as REALLY rude...it's late.


The Willow Sword
06-20-2001, 07:49 AM
inquisitor is releasing anger hate and frustration and i am very proud that he has done it here rather than go to one of our schools to rant. i doubt that they would be as forgiving and understanding as i am about it and you.
he seems to be young and needs more meditation.
perhaps the damaging effects of his qigong training huh?

Man i am going to check out the web site on inside kung-fu. i am interested in the HUA FIST article.
well in any regard cheerio.
many respects,,,willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-20-2001, 08:53 AM
Radhnoti, you are clearly a fool. Your posts are always rife with your hubris (that means sense of superiority, Mr. "Big Words Confuse Me and I'm Too Lazy to Get Off My @ss and Look It Up in The Dictionary"...and if you're wondering where I got that from, you might want to check your old posts), rolling eyes and all. You have just proven my point. If you really were looking to evaluate your chosen "martial art" and its legitimacy, you would have actually read what I and others wrote (rather than simply skim everything that is "anti-Shaolin-Do" with dismissing eyes..."Oh, he is saying something bad about Shaolin-Do. Obviously he doesn't know what he is talking about, but I'll humor him with a response.") and chosen to leave it. You are like a born-and-raised Christian, reading about another religion ("They believe in reincarnation? How stupid is that?"), but not bothering to understand its nature (The belief in reincarnation is no more "stupid" than the belief that there is a heaven and a hell. It is a matter of faith.). My post is not about "why Buddhists would create a martial art" you illiterate jack@ss. It is a reiteration of an OLD point of evidence that Shaolin-Do is not what it claims to be. Also, where the hell are you getting this "inflated sense of importance" bullsh-t? Show me where I have ever claimed to be superior to someone else. Show me where I have ever acted as if other people were somehow less important that I was (unlike your posts, you hypocrite). As for you, TWS, you are an idiot. You claimed to come here "looking for answers," but everyone knows that you just came here to try to defend Shaolin-Do and to fuel your ego. And, for your information, I *have* gone to Shaolin-Do schools. In fact, the first time I had ever heard about Shaolin-Do was a few years ago, through martial arts acquaintances. It was during that meeting and subsequent others (where trading of information about the system and friendly bouts commenced) that I came to the conclusion that Shaolin-Do was crap and was a lie. Everyone knows that Shaolin-Do lackeys do not fight. They make claims of being "too deadly" or that "sparring is bad" and other BS. The only way we (meaning my friends and I) got these "friends of friends" to even spar was through peer pressure. I have gone to two separate Shaolin-Do schools, and at both I first offered to have a friendly sparring match, full safety gear and all. Guess what I got. They acted like they were "too good to fight" and all that other BS. I have even challenged the instructors there. Guess what happened. More BS responses. Just like Radhnoti, you help to prove another of my points, TWS. You write in your post "perhaps the damaging effects of his qigong training huh?" This shows that you actually read the section of my post that deals with the differences between Taoist and Buddhist methods of chi kung/qigong. However, rather than actually follow up on this information and ask someone else with some authority on the subject (such as Yang Jwing-Ming, the Chen/Yang Taijiquan families, authorities on Shaolin-descended arts such as Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut, etc etc etc), you simply dismiss it. I'm against Shaolin-Do, so anything that I say is obviously unfounded and based purely on lies. Both of you, Radhnoti and TWS, choose to ignore information that can be easily verified and would prove Shaolin-Do to be fake. Since this is the case, you are either fools who do not understand simple logic or you actively partake in the lie for your own gain.

06-20-2001, 03:49 PM
1.Anyone know where I can find pictures of those plaques?
2.Also does anyone know what that hairy face condition is actualy called? Every book in the local library system on freak shows and other oddities was checked out. There was one PT Barnum book, but it was just a biography.
3.Does Sin The claim all of his information came directly from Ie Chang Ming?
4.What's the deal with the Karate uniforms? Anyone know the whole story?
5.What was the curiculum when Sin The first started teaching?
6.When did he first open his own school?

06-20-2001, 03:52 PM
Well, I wasn't speaking of that particular incident but several more recent encounters. Also, I have heard a different version of that story by non 4s people as well and I also know that there were only 2 4s guys there (one of which was a kid) and that they were invited to participate by Hiang. Bill Leonard became overly aggressive and was put in place rather brutally it seems. I personally find the behavior of all parties involved to be unfortunate.
I understand Hiang is teaching at the YMCA at Beaumont do you think he would mind if I watched? I would be curious to see the differences between he and Sin.

What you say is true and it's nothing that hasn't been said to SD practioners a thousand times. However, the cult like mentality is hard to overcome. Plus most people who study SD have never experienced a true high level Sifu.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

The Willow Sword
06-20-2001, 04:31 PM
Inquisitor suffers from what chinese doctors like to call too much wind. blowing and blowing and dry as a bone. quit while you are ahead, please
you have no idea who i am or what i am about. as for the cult mentality,,doesnt it seem that the cult behavior is coming from the many on this forum who discount SD? i mean really now,,come on. when will this cease? (when SD goes out of buisiness and GM Sin is exposed?) NOT gonna happen kiddos,,if there was anything to really prove his lying other than opinions and conjecture he would have been run out of town a long time ago.
most of you know about all of your lineages the same way the students of SD learn about thiers. now you are teling me that your alls is the true lineage? youve got documantation to back it? why just because some asian guy or some white guy with an asian teacher gave you a set of papers with chinese on it? like our school has, you automatically believe it? because its authentic? the REAL thing? ha ha ha ha,,you pepole amaze me when you trash one system and go to such lengths to trash it,,seems like a cult to me ,,,,i mean the branch davidians trashed the government but still people support it. whether you think its bad it still works and keeps most of you teen agers in line. dont get me started on this rant fellas,,,,,,i guess any challenges that are issued will be futile cause we are all so convinced that we are the REAL thing and what we do WORKS, even if the other was able to kick the others ass. WHEN ARE YOU GUYS GONNA DROP THE EGO BS THING AND JUST LIVE AND LET LIVE. SUCH AS THE NATURE OF MOST OF US HERE,,,THOSE WHO CANT THINK,,FIGHT. SIGH,,,,,,
many resects,,willow sword :rolleyes:

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-20-2001, 04:47 PM
Willow sword why exactly did you start this post if you weren't going to listen to anyones opinons?

(Hey guys look over these posts every time someone asks a Shaolin Do person a question they change the subject and say we are style bashing)

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

06-20-2001, 05:05 PM
1. Brad, the plaques are shown (besides many other places) at http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/
2. Su Kong Tai Jin's skin condition is called (I believe) hypertrichosis lanuginosa.
3. I don't know.
4. When Grandmaster Ie went to Indonesia many of the teachings of GM Su were "glossed over" with a japanese covering. The reason this was done is that the Chinese in Indonesia are a minority and as such the object of resentment and discrimination. GM Ie had his students wear gis, and began using the belt ranking system, he also started using terms like bo, sensei, dojo, etc. This is also where the style picked up the name Shaolin-Do. I posted an unsubstantiated refutation of this, earlier in this thread. If you turn up any proof of the falsehood of any of this I hope you post it, as this is the "official Shaolin-Do history" as told in GM Sin's book.
5. Don't know.
6. His book states that he started teaching in 1965, and called it karate "since this was long before the era of the "Kung-Fu" craze."

Inquisitor, you wound me. Deeply. A fool? I? Sense of superiority? I? I've never claimed to be competent enough to judge anyone's style. You're the one with the need to attack a style you so obviously care nothing about. "Show me where I have ever claimed to be superior to someone else. "
Um, ok.
"I've seen Shaolin-Do ging. I've even read their descriptions about it. IT IS BULLSH-T GING. IT IS NOT THE REAL THING."
That's a claim of superior...um..ging.
"HE IS A FRAUD. Godd@mmit, why can't you stupid Shaolin-Do people understand this?!!?!? "
That's a claim of superior intellect.
"It was during that meeting and subsequent others (where trading of information about the system and friendly bouts commenced) that I came to the conclusion that Shaolin-Do was crap and was a lie. "
That's the last incredibly obviously smugly superior quote straight from you that I'll dish out.
BKH, both TWS and Boulder Student (from WAY back, not heard from him in a while) studied with other teachers and found SD to be impressive. Were they "true high level sifu's"? I don't know. To call TWS and myself "cultists" is a bit of a cop-out don't you think? TWS has stated that he doesn't believe SD isn't a fusion of CMA and karate. Doesn't sound like the brainwashing went too well with him. I've scoured the internet looking for any physical evidence of falsehoods in what I've been told. I found an article that was pretty ****ing, quoting from GM Sin's certificate of advancement and a letter from GM Ie to GM Sin. But haven't found any verification of the legitimacy of these documents. Does that seem brainwashed? Could be, I suppose. The brainwashed person WOULD be the last to know. ;)
Well, that's all for now. I've got to go buy the latest issue of IKF. :cool:


06-20-2001, 07:21 PM
How many Shaolin-do real/fake threads to we have to have on this forum?

"Don't waste yourself" - Bruce

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

The Willow Sword
06-20-2001, 09:34 PM
i thought that my final report stated pretty much all of what i wanted to state. but as always we gotta have more more more posts. it has been fun,
but i think that once i get out of albuquerque and get to taos i wont really care too much anymore about who thinks what. my whole mission here is to establish good contacts with people and learn more if i can,,but i will continue to defend the system of SD against those who harshly
judge. it is amazing to me for what are these sifus and teachers teaching thier students? to be dickheads? or to be so arrogant and stuck up that they cant respect something for what it is and leave it at that? My god what are these guys teaching thier kids/students? Well i for one am not going to impart this superior behavior on to my students,,i will teach them how they need to be taught,,,and that is to survive,,cultivate thier energy,,control thier emotions and to above all,,RESPECT AND BE HUMBLE.
ill be in the internal sections of the forums from now on(its a better place in there)sometimes
many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

06-21-2001, 05:49 AM
there's no point in arguing with loyal SD people.

we've presented facts, logical arguments (have to admit a few volatile ones)... hell, we've pointed Willow Sword in the direction to find his answers, but he seems afraid to walk that path by avoiding and ignoring every significant question that would put SD in the 'fraud' pile.

There's no point in talking to a person who can't listen.

06-21-2001, 10:44 PM
Ok, the anti-Shaolin-Do people don't present good arguments. Ok. But the Shaolin-Do people don't either. (sometimes, both sides have something to say, but it's usually just kid fights.) Where is the martial in the martial art of Shaolin-Do? Art, yes, martial? It's the same with well respected Chinese arts sometimes. But guys, why don't you go to a Shaolin-Do forum? Or do you have a reason to be here? If you do, cool. If you just want to prove your art, prove it amongst your peers. We are not your peers, we practice something different. I don't go to Karate forums and say how good my Chinese Kung Fu is. They would tell me to go boost my ego somewhere else, and that Kung Fu is too soft. Ok, that's why they practice Karate, because they prefer it. So share with us, question us, but if you want a positive response to your art, then you will find it amongst your peers (other Shaolin-Do guys and gals).

06-22-2001, 02:54 AM
Shaolin_Knight my understanding is that TWS was new to the forum. Many on the boards trashed shaolin-do like it was common knowledge that it was "fake". He asked for any proof of lies, etc. He got a lot of opinions and no facts (I think I was the closest to posting a ****ing document...and it is unproven). This thread was his "summation".
KFQ which hosts these boards has been kind enough to run an article or two from the SD perspective, showcasing beautiful pictures taken by our students of the shaolin temple. I've ordered weapons and uniforms from marital arts mart, as have my fellow students. That's why I post here.
Now, just out of curiosity...what makes you think you have more right to be here than anyone else? :confused:


06-23-2001, 02:49 PM
i'm just tired of seeing this thread on the top. As for the kung fu guys providing evidence, where's your evidence?

06-23-2001, 07:36 PM
At the end of the day the Shaolin-do people have made their point. There are literary dozens of Chinese martial arts traditions that either trace their lineage to Shaolin Temple or to systems that do. In other words there are Chinese martial art s that a re based on only a small amount of the original Shaolin repertoire with methods augmented by their founder's own experience and/or their imagination and inventiveness. In many and most cases subsequent generation added to the material in their re specti ve systems.

The result is a myriad of Chinese martial arts which have unique flavors and in many case have different emphasis and core basics. They, as well as most Okinawan
systems, claim connection to Shaolin martial arts. In this sense Shaolin-do i s no different than Chen Taiji Chuan, Xingyi Quan, Hua Quan, LiuHe Quan, Tanglang Quan, PRC fighting monk style, etc. . . . and you can add to the list of well known systems, hundreds of lesser known systems.

There is a context to every system and that context shaped and formed these systems. Shaolin-do like PRC fighting monks style both have a modern context. In my opinion PRC fighting monks style is based on a context of' show and sport competition (and don't mean combat sport).'

Other contemporory systems focus on combat sport, and self-defense, police work etc.
What Shaolin-do's focus is I cannot say, but it's not about dealing with deadly armed and una r med combat (which many traditional Chinese System did) - but then nether is PRC fighting monks' style which in that area is seriously flawed.

From what I've seen of them, the PRC fighting monks are superb athletes. But through n o faul t of their own, are practicing an art that was developed in another time with another context and purpose, abet in the same place that true fight arts were were practiced, improved and developed.

Well Shaolin do or for that matter PRC fighting monk' style survive in their present from? I don't know - time well tell.l

[This message was edited by R. on 06-24-01 at 10:44 AM.]

06-23-2001, 11:03 PM
R., I'd say that it might not be about fighting armed or unarmed YOUR way. Let's face facts, most our styles don't train regularly in modern firearms...that would be the deadliest form of combat today. Other than that I completely agree with you. :)


06-25-2001, 01:25 AM
I just watched that Chen Taiji video. That is absolutely, categorically NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT CHEN TAIJI!!!!!!!!!!! I don't know what the hell that was, but it does in no way shape or form resemble Taiji...Yang, Chen, Wu or Any other derivation? It violates every principle of Taiji. It looks like some sort of traditional folk dance mixed with yoga. Yes probably tough to do...because your body is not meant to move that way.....my GOD!!!!! :eek:

"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee