PM strength training

[bung bo]

do any of you guys know any PM strength training exercises? i was thinking they might include grip strength training or something like that. thanks

[flem]

contact yu shan, the pong lai guys have some excellent/traditional methods and yu's in your area

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Unless he's already there. Check his info flem.

[carly]

about PM weight and grip training by tossing beanbags and stone weights by tainan mantis and mantis 108.

[bung bo]

i asked my shrfu and he said stuff like throwing around stones with handles on them.he had it on video somewhere and would show it to me.
carly--thanks for telling me about the thread.

[yu shan]

Witnessed a bizarre demonstration by my Gong Fu Uncle in Taiwan. His apartment seemed to be this fortress of indoor and outdoor conditioning. I`m telling you, stuff I`ve never even dreamed of. He trains in body conditioning, yet it is amazing these apparatus (which are home-made) seem to also make one incredible strong! My Gong Fu Uncle is a great guy, his name is Yao Wei.

Tainan Mantis

What is the tossing the stone with a handle called ? This was very impressive, both strenght-wise and coordination. And what is the history behind this training?

Flem

Seems I have students caught up with KFO, a kind of cool-down post work out info reading. You and others bring alot to the table, I talk you folks up! I`ve explained that the banter is kind of expected... thanks for the mention.

[Tainan Mantis]

Shr suo means iron lock, as in the kind you use to lock up a cabinet.

When Shrfu went to China a shuiao jiao teacher gave him a pair of marble rock locks as a gift and taught him the throws and catches.

Very few antique ones remain as they often break.
So Yaway found a tombstone cutter who made them for all of us and we have been training ever since.

The bad part is that they don't strengthen the grip as well as throwing the heavy bag.

When I went to visit GM Wei's students the talked about another where the handle is more of an indentation.
This way it also works the grip stringth.

This is probably better than the heavy bean bag as that bag cause the fingernail skin to come off. Like the skin around the fingernails.

[RAF]

In my old days of training in Pm, a couple of times we tried to construct some PM exercise gadgets of sorts (they are acutally good for any type of training.

The first was very simple. High ceiling like in a big garage. Put a rope and pulley with weight on the end. You pull the weight up with an arm movement we called, I think, climbing the mountain. The hand movement looks like you make a perpendicular circle to your chest by rotating your hands circular, each hand follows the other while gripping the rope. Once the weight reaches the top of the pulley (ceiling), you let go of the rope, then grip it, let go, then grip it, let go, the grip it untile the weight reaches the floor and you repeat the entire process.


Pulley
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The other is to install a rod attached to a wall like a peper towel holder (kind found in a kitchen)

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Weight
For image, move rope and weight to middle of rod (can't get image to stay there)

The rod can rotate in the holders. Rod had a hole in the middle which has rope attached with weigh at the end. Grip outside of the rold and roll weight up. Then release grip for a second and then regrip, release, then regrip, release, then then regrip until weight reaches the floor.




I have heard of 6 harmony mantis training where you strike moss covered large rocks with the inside of the forearm and heavy iron ball you pop up with the top of a formed fist but never saw them.

[flem]

if you guys want to take the hard road, one of my students is a mason, never seen such applicable strength. not just the hands, but whole body. he was once at his kid's football game and this off duty cop(whose son played as well), a very big guy started - well they were argueing, to make a long story short, the cop grabbed him, and my student threw him down like it was his little sister. the cop said "man, you don't look that strong". they became friends after. i worked with his crew once, it was like that movie master killer/36 chambers, when the monk was carrying the water vessels.

[mantis108]

1) 18 Lohan as warm up/cool down. You might want to fortify on Rd 11 & 13 (general overall performance), and 16 & 18 (ground grappling oriented). BTW, this is based on 7* version. That means you do 8 repetitions to each road.

2) Stone lock, stone bar bell and/or other convention grip strength devices routines

3)Your favorite form (5 times)

4) cool down with 18 Lohan (once per road as a form) or a strecth routine of your choice.

Plain, simple and style specific.

Mantis108

[bung bo]

thank mantis108, but i don't know 18 Lohan.is it physically demanding?

[mantis108]

18 Lohan is one of the most versatile form available. It has at least a 4 folds approach:

1) General Health (Non violant)
2) Martial conditioning (Functional combat strength, Impact training, etc...)
3) Fighting Techniques (Self defense & closed quartered combat)
4) Spiritual attainment (via the Qigong component and contemplating the text)

There are also many versions in existance. The version that I learned from Tainan Mantis is similar to WHF's 7 Star version. It involves dynamic tension. However, there is another version that has a Yang style Taiji flavor to it. That version would be IMHO suitable for those who seek Qigong benefit the most. The text is also very important as it provides crucial information to the moves. For example Rd 11, the way WHF described in his book is slightly different form the text that is accompanying the movements. Needless to say, the result is quite different. I would think that WHF merely documented the beginning state of the practice. There are higher physical demands as one progress.

Hope this help

Regards

Mantis108

PS We have some discussions about the 18 Lohan at my forum. Please feel free to check over there. (link provide with my signature below)

[yu shan]

TainanMantis

Please share with us about this heavy bag and marble rock locks. Thank you !

[Tainan Mantis]

Your shrfu can tell you in detail how to make either a bag or the lock(concrete is ok).

Then he can show you the throwing method for one or more people.

In class we would make a big circle while throwing one or two bags around.
The bag dropper had to do push ups or something fun like that.

[bung bo]

http://www.wahnam.com/UK/chikung/lohan.htm

i went to this site by Wong Kiew Kit. would any of you guys consider him repudable? what i wanted to ask if you could give me some more info on 18 lohan. like how long to do each one, how many repititions, if any, if dynamic tension is involved, etc. any input is greatly appreciated

[mantis108]

That's 18 Lohan Hands, which is different from 18 Lohan of PM. Your best bet is to find the book by Wong Hon Fun. Another option is to obtain the poster featuring Sifu Lee Kam Wing performing the entire form. I think it is included in his book "Secrets of Seven Stars Mantis Style". May be your teacher knows the form too. Have you talk to him about it?

On a side note, I am doing similar type of range of motion warm up routine all the time. Frankly, I don't notice the so-called Chi Kung benefit that Mr Wong claims. I am of course no Chi Kung master. But this is a "master" (or his followers?) who claims to be able to move the clouds at will with Chi. So.... :confused: :rolleyes: I donno. Fish eyeballs can be disguised as pearl too, I suppose. :cool:

Regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

No relation to the 18 Luohan taught by Shr Zhengzhong.
In fact those pictures go to 8 Section brocade.

[Taz]

Yushan,

Shrfu John has shown us the stone lock exercises. We have two different weights at school. Very physically demanding. When you are down just ask. I also can use a review.

[Yum Cha]

Specifically, grip strengthening.

I 've been taught a few grip strengthening exercises,

Firstly, the well known bag full of beans/marbles/ball bearings/ stones take your pic, move from one to the other...

Also, use an inflated ball. Smaller than a soccer ball, a child's ball works well. Grab it and squeeze it with your fingerTIPs, without touching your palms to the ball. Try to dig your finger tips through the ball. If you break it, so what, they're cheap.

And, fingertip pushups. Importantly, fingerTIP, not finger PAD pushups. Your fingers must form arcs forward like claws, not bend backwards like you see in most instances. You start by pushing against a wall, working your way down to knee pushups, then proper ones. From beach, to grass, to pavement.

it is VERY important to develop this conditioning over time, and not to hurry it along, as you run the risk of injuring yourself.

Working a paperbark tree is good fun too.

[bung bo]

i was doing the pushups on the pads. the tips are much more benificial.

[yu shan]

Taz

Shrfu shared stone lock with you guys? Great stuff in Taiwan! Will talk to Shrfu about this thread, and Tainan Mantis (maybe) coming to the states. Would like a visit to Tennessee, if he is making the visit to USA.

[Jotaro Joestar]

We also build up wrist strength and flexability by doing pushups on the back of our palms (the top of our hands) with fingers facing in towards each other.

[bung bo]

i got a dowel rod 1" by 36" and drilled a hole in it and put a rope through. then i put 15 pounds on the end of the rope, and wind the rope around the dowel. very good forearm and wrist workout. the muscles in my forearms are firmer after only 3 days.

[Guile]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
And, fingertip pushups. Importantly, fingerTIP, not finger PAD pushups. Your fingers must form arcs forward like claws, not bend backwards like you see in most instances. You start by pushing against a wall, working your way down to knee pushups, then proper ones. From beach, to grass, to pavement.

it is VERY important to develop this conditioning over time, and not to hurry it along, as you run the risk of injuring yourself.

Working a paperbark tree is good fun too.

Do you know any other ways as well to strengthen the fingers?

[Stacey]

tip push ups are beneficial if your goal is to go blind.

[Guile]

I heard knickle pushups do that?
I am not sure.
Has any of you lost some eyesight?

[Robinf]

Only from crying--tip push ups are hard.:o

Push ups on the knuckles are beneficial to the wrists. I do these because of a recurring wrist sprain. My wrist heals faster and holds out longer now that I've worked these into my routine, along with other forearm and wrist exercises.

[Guile]

Hey do you do knuckle push ups on carpet, floor, concrete, or concrete with pebbles?
Just wondering cause I started those and now have knuckle bruises and redness.

[Taz]

I thought about the stone lock training regarding the equipment for training. The stone locks are hard to find here or you need to find a mason who can design and cut one. There are several companies that sell speed, agility and functional training equipment. There is a new type of medicine ball that has a griping handle. Also, these med balls come in a variety of weights from 2lbs to 25lbs. I spoke to my shrfu and he agreed that you can use it for training but recommended that you add foam padding to the handle to increase the size for greater grip strength training. There are several companies: Power systems (I believe the site is www.power-systems.com, and Perform Better www.performbetter.com. On some items Power systems is cheapier so check them both out.
Happy Training!!!

[Siuhoimoon]

A friend told me that a famous Bei Shaolin and Qi Gong grandmaster, Chen Guo Wei (Chan Kwok Wai), says that doing finger push-ups is no good for your qi development. His students are not allowed to do this kind of exercise.
I don't know if this is true... does anybody know something about it?

[yu shan]

Would not recommend these, many other exercises, less stressfull. This being said, let`s get away from useless training...and hopefully your CMA has a strenght & conditioning regiment! Can someone here share some conditioning & strenght training? Other than the ole 'FINGER PUSHUP' a deffinant useless way...

[SaMantis]

Guile,

Do knuckle pushups on a flat, smooth surface only. Don't do them on gravel or pebbles as all you'll do is tear up & scar the skin, develop bruises etc. As robinf said the exercise strengthens your wrists. It toughens the knuckles somewhat but injuries will counteract that.

If you want to toughen your knuckles further there are better methods that don't rely on bodyweight.

[yu shan]

GOD forbid someone gets a bruise from training...

Unfortunate to some style`s, two-person material & serious conditioning are not taught. Not to mention,"fighting"! I guess it all boils down to your lineage and who teaches what. My main reason for leaving a certain style in the first place... it could only take you so far...wanna get better!

[SaMantis]

a minor impact bruise is no prob, I'm talking about grinding your knuckles to a pulp on a bad surface. All you get is permanent damage from CONSTANT skin lacerations and CONSTANT, DEEP bruising.

Hope that clarifies things for ya.

[Guile]

ya, good point about the lacerations.

[Shaolin-Do]

Also gotta remember that if you havent properly developed your knuckles, not only will you bruise them, you will f*ck up your ligaments.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by yu shan
Would not recommend these, many other exercises, less stressfull. This being said, let`s get away from useless training...and hopefully your CMA has a strenght & conditioning regiment! Can someone here share some conditioning & strenght training? Other than the ole 'FINGER PUSHUP' a deffinant useless way...

I'm gonna have to disagree with you here Yu Shan. I've been doing finger push ups for 6 years and I have a friend who has been doing it for about 30 and we have normal eyesite( except for the fact that I've been waering glasses since I was 4:D )

Well as far as useless... I don't think so. When my friend pokes me with his fingers it fels like somone is stabbing me :eek: No lie.This persons' fingers are super strong and his grip is amazing.

[ursa major]

Wish I knew 18 Lohan sounds interesting. Anything like Hung-Gar's Iron & Thread ?

I use 12 inch bean bags filled with 12-guage pellets. They carry alot of weight for a small package but then consider what they were originally intended for.

Settle into low horse stance, hold a bean bag in one hand let it drop to the ground catching it from above with the other hand before it hits the ground.

UM.