Anyone practice Iron Wire and feel internal sensations?

[cha kuen]

Iron Wire was meant to be an internal set. Does anyone here practice Iron Wire and do they feel any internal sensations? I was reading a bit of Lam Sai Wing's book on Iron Wire and he talks about using your intent to lead the chi to different areas during the set....

[No_Know]

I've used fence wire to do forms I already was doing.

It felt nice after. And much freer movement ease.

[David Jamieson]

:D

[HuangKaiVun]

The point of doing Iron Wire is to tense various parts of the body using various postures and breathing techniques.

When it's done properly, you develop the ability to give and take hits.

What do I feel after doing this kind of thing? Tired immediately afterwards, stronger later.

[illusionfist]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you Huang. Iron Wire is basically none of the things you described. To say that it is just tensing muscles is actually quite rudimentary and basic.

Iron Wire teaches you to control and direct the flow of chi that leads to proper faht ging. It IS NOT isometric exercise. The locking and releasing of the chi flow thru the meridians is aided by the differing bridging principles.

The goal of Iron Wire is not the same as iron body gung. The goal is to understand , cultivate, and utilize internal methods in combat.

Peace :D

P.S.- If you dont mind Huang, where did you learn your Iron Wire? I dont recall you saying where you picked up your Gar.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by illusionfist
I'm gonna have to disagree with you Huang. Iron Wire is basically none of the things you described. To say that it is just tensing muscles is actually quite rudimentary and basic.

Iron Wire teaches you to control and direct the flow of chi that leads to proper faht ging. It IS NOT isometric exercise. The locking and releasing of the chi flow thru the meridians is aided by the differing bridging principles.

The goal of Iron Wire is not the same as iron body gung. The goal is to understand , cultivate, and utilize internal methods in combat.

Peace :D

P.S.- If you dont mind Huang, where did you learn your Iron Wire? I dont recall you saying where you picked up your Gar.

Huang is an expert on all CMA didn't you know? :D

[wushu chik]

Oh come on guys, it's not JUST CMA he's an expert on, it's EVERYTHING. From CMA to JMA, to MMA, to movies, and music, and everything else that makes the world go round!!! HE KNOWS ALL!

~Wen~

[HuangKaiVun]

Get your quotes straight, illusionfist.

I never said that it was "just tensing muscles".

I also mentioned breathing techniques and giving/taking hits.

So if you aren't tensing your muscles and doing breath control, how are you accomplishing the dynamic tension of Hung Ga?

In the school (Tang Fung, Yee Chee Wai lineage) I studied, dynamic tension was integral in the form. That involved tensing muscles and breath control, as far as doing the form for COMBATIVE usage goes.

"The locking and releasing of the chi flow thru the meridians is aided by the differing bridging principles." How do you propose this be accomplished, then?

Without tensing the muscles in the prescribed way, not even a Jedi Mind Trick performed on the Iron Wire Set will keep you on your feet after taking a hard hit.

And that's the way it is in not just Hung Ga, but a whole lot of other kung fu styles that are actually used for FIGHTING.

[illusionfist]

So are you saying you learned Iron Wire or dynamic tension from the Yee's?

[illusionfist]

Well, i just happened to speak with Dixon Fung and he said that there is nobody under your name (obviously your real name that you've revealed on the boards before) that has received iron wire transmissions from them.

Please dont take this as a personal attack. I just happened to talk to him about it (since the Yee's were brought up). The people that have actively received Iron Wire transmissions (and not just the form) are still a part of the Yee's Association and they are still learning its various intricacies. Any members from the Yee's that have recieved full training have their name put into a record book for documentation (all said by Dixon Fung himself).

If anyone has any questions on an instructor, they can email Dixon personally or get in contact with him thru PM at the www.hungkuen.net forum (screen name is DF).

[joedoe]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun
Get your quotes straight, illusionfist.

I never said that it was "just tensing muscles".

I also mentioned breathing techniques and giving/taking hits.

So if you aren't tensing your muscles and doing breath control, how are you accomplishing the dynamic tension of Hung Ga?

In the school (Tang Fung, Yee Chee Wai lineage) I studied, dynamic tension was integral in the form. That involved tensing muscles and breath control, as far as doing the form for COMBATIVE usage goes.

"The locking and releasing of the chi flow thru the meridians is aided by the differing bridging principles." How do you propose this be accomplished, then?

Without tensing the muscles in the prescribed way, not even a Jedi Mind Trick performed on the Iron Wire Set will keep you on your feet after taking a hard hit.

And that's the way it is in not just Hung Ga, but a whole lot of other kung fu styles that are actually used for FIGHTING.

There is so much more to dynamic tension forms than tensing your muscles.

[HuangKaiVun]

No $hit, Sherlock.

"I also mentioned breathing techniques and giving/taking hits."

I wrote that, not you.

READ.


I'm not Dixon Fung's student.

Not that it matters.

If you do Iron Wire and don't even bother to contract your muscles, it won't mean squat in a real fight against somebody who DOES.

Try it. You'll see.

[jon]

Calm down, Illusionfist is not being at all rude to you and your responding with insults.

You have not stated your teacher and only stated a part of your linage. I can understand you not wanting to name your teacher directly but if your going to insult other peoples opinions you can expect them to call yours up for scrutiny.

I also think your taking Illusionfists points in compleatley the wrong light. He only posted in the first place to say there was more to Tit Sing than simply dynamic tension. If you dont hold his view point then how about giving us some explanations as to why.
I for example would be *very* interested in just how flexing your muscles is akin to iron body training. If this is the case why not simply lift wieghts and use regular medition instead of the particular breathing techniques?

I never saw much of iron wire but what i did see seemed to have a lot to do with intent and breath control.
I have always been taught that good Hung Ga including so called "dynamic tension' is *not* stressed tension. Just like all good arts there an interplay between Yin and Yang and the skill in 'dynamic tension' comes in the word 'dynamic'. To be able to transform soft to hard and back again. Ive often been told that the higher levels teach a student to 'explode' the various energys within there bodys.

I dont mean to pigion hole you as im sure your not trying to say that Iron Wire is *all* about having tence muscles and laboured breathing but still this is an internal set and as such it should hold true to some internal pricipals.

Anyway its an interesting topic, i wish i had some solid information to add but this set was always somewhat elusive. I only ever saw parts of it.

[illusionfist]

I didn't say that you were one of Dixon Fung's students. By bringing him up, its implied what his position is as Dai Sihing and therefore knowledgeable of who is who within their org. Being as that you dropped the Yee's name, i figured you would have known that. There is no need to drop a name to bring legitimacy to a statement if said teachings didn't come from that line.

I did read. You said the POINT of iron wire is tensing muscles, as well as breath control and giving and taking hits. Yes breath control is in there, but where are you getting this giving and taking hits stuff? There is no pai da element to iron wire whatsoever. Once again i'll reiterate, the focus of iron wire is NOT the same as iron body gung. Muscle contraction is only one aspect of this form, and at higher levels the interplay of gung and yau ging are tantamount over basic muscular functions.

If you've actually received iron wire transmissions, than we can continue to debate on this. If you haven't (which in all honesty i personally feel you haven't, based from your statements), than i feel compelled to correct certain statements so that others who read may know what iron wire IS and is NOT.

Peace :D

[denali]

Hey, illusionfist, did you learn the iron wire recently? Congrats. ;)

[illusionfist]

Nah, i went modern and just decided to learn it from a video... :eek:

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by illusionfist
Nah, i went modern and just decided to learn it from a video... :eek:

May I inquire which video did you choose?

WLE?

May I also inquire why did you choose this particular video (good presentation, comprehensive, etc, etc). Of course, if you are joking then ignore my questions.

Thanks

wm

[illusionfist]

Dont you hate how sarcasm never conveys over the internet? I was TOTALLY joking about that. Video Fu represents all that is unholy and wrong, haha. I still prefer the "ancient" ways of learning from a real life sifu, hehe;)

[denali]

Good to hear you learned tiet sin the old fashioned way.

:eek:

[cha kuen]

You guys probably have ran into this before but I'll post it for people that haven't read it.

This is from YC Wong's website at www.tigercrane.com on Iron Wire:

IRON WIRE

This form is the highest set taught in the Hung Gar system. It takes the practitioner into the realm of internal Kung Fu training, which is the ultimate goal in Chinese martial arts. Tid Sin's limited footwork is based solely upon the movements and spirit of the Dragon coupled with vibrating sounds and various intonations of breath control with twisting movements which stimulate the internal organs. Each emotion (Happiness, Anger, Sadness, Sorrow and Fear) is said to be translated into a breathing tone producing different vibrations, which affect different organs. From the breathing sounds comes a strong type of power, which is emitted from within the practitioner. There are twelve types of training methods contained in this form. They are Hard, Soft, Lineal, Isometric Contractions, Linking, Dividing, Supporting, Stationary, Circular Transition, Determination, Exactness and Immobilization. These twelve types of training are designed to control and improve the internal functions of the organs. It is a dynamic tension exercise used to increase the flow of Chi throughout the body. It is an efficient means of body building and stamina development.

[HuangKaiVun]

Hung Ga is NOT the only system out there with an Iron Wire type of set.

I didn't receive direct transmission from the Yees, but I did see their (and other people's) performances of the set.

My Seng Men system has Iron Body training that is very similar to Hung Kuen's system. Different form, same applications.

If a person can't see that doing that set helps a person give and take hits via the contraction of muscles and alignment of jing/breathing, then he's WASTING HIS TIME. All that lineage won't mean squat.

Either you contract your muscles in this set or you don't. Don't believe me? Fight against somebody who does - you'll get beat up.

That's why I have great respect for the Iron Wire set - and anybody who does it PROPERLY.

[illusionfist]

So basically we're arguing over a form you have only seen and dont know, yet you are basically saying that what we do as Hung Gar practitioners is basically wrong because we're not focusing on muscle contraction?

You mention-

"Either you contract your muscles in this set or you don't. Don't believe me? Fight against somebody who does - you'll get beat up"

This is an interesting statement. Can you expand on how this is true considering the training Tit Kiu Sam gave to his first student Lee Jung? This meeting is well known to elders and seniors of Hung Kuen so I am sure you will know of it. So it won't be hard for you to explain the issue of your statement in regards to this meeting.

I would like to make it known that I am NOT disputing the fact that Tit Sin Kuen is used for fighting, but it is surely not used in the way you are describing. Iron body skills are not a focus within Tit Sin Kuen. This is not its design at all.

[cha kuen]

Iron Wire is a sophisticated internal set with all those weird sounds, not an iron body excercise. Look at what I posted! Y.C. Wong's description is very detailed and he is from Lum Jo.

Lam Sai Wing's books in Chinese talk about the same thing!! Go pick one up and get a chinese dude to translate

[denali]

Hey, illusionfist, you little question dodger.

Did you learn tiet sin recently or not?

[illusionfist]

*bobs and weaves*

not recently :D

check your PM by the way

[tparkerkfo]

A couple comments,

To start with, I have NOT learned the Iron Wire form. So take what you want from this post. I do learn Hung Gar and I am aware of the form.

One, I am not certain, but I think I agree with Illusion fist in that Iron wire is not really iron body. I think that is a seperate training. However, there may be some overlap.

Two, I think some are downplaying the dynamic tension. I think it IS an intregal part of the form. However, as noted, there is a lot of soft in it too. Can't have Yin without Yang.

Three, why drag YC Wong sifu into this. I can say that what was posted was a mere paragraph. I am sure Iron Wire is much more detailed than one paragraph. Don't limit Iron Wire to that paragraph. I am sure Wong sifu could talk hours about it. That is like pointing to a movie review and arguing with someone who saw the movie.

Four, Iron Wire is a high level set that takes energy to perform. So I think one may feel tired after doing it. However, I have heard it form really has the opposit effect if done correctly. One feels charged and wide awake. Not good to do in the evenings before bed.

That is almost the limit of my knowledge on the form. Most of the other stuff was already said on this forum. My questions would be to ask who on this forum actually practices this form? Probably very few. I don't for example. I got many years most likely. Another question is the original, what sensations are felt? And the last, why iorn wire?

One question I have for Huang Kai Vung, what set is similar to Iron Wire? What is the history of the set? How is it similar? What is its purpose? As I mentioned before, I don't think Iron Wire's purpose is to develop Iron Body skills. A major function is to develop chi and to distribute it to various parts of the body, from my knowledge.

Just some thoughts. Take them with a grain of salt.
Tom

[Shaolin-Do]

I have read some interesting things on iron wire... something about "being led by the dragon" or something... I have read about people moving as if being possessed while doing iron wire... physically moving without consciously doing so... Is Iron wire designed to move chi to more efficiently give and take hits or what? Im not quite sure as I havent taken it... Im just curious.

[illusionfist]

Originally posted by Shaolin-Do
I have read some interesting things on iron wire... something about "being led by the dragon" or something... I have read about people moving as if being possessed while doing iron wire... physically moving without consciously doing so... Is Iron wire designed to move chi to more efficiently give and take hits or what? Im not quite sure as I havent taken it... Im just curious.

Where did you read these things? Tit Sin Kuen has none of those qualities.

[Shaolin-Do]

some book on internal arts... was probably bullsh*t anyways.
just sounded interesting ;)

[David Jamieson]

Lam sai wing wrote an entire book on this set.
You can find it translated into english soon.

There are videos available you can watch and learn from of this set.

There are many Hung teachers who know and can teach you the set.

Each set, from all kungfu systems may likely share in some aspects. Afterall, we are all human. :D

But each, from all systems, has it's own flavour, subtle or strong.

carry on!

iron wire excerpt from Lam sai wings book (http://www.kungfulibrary.com/qi-gong-tiet-sin-free-new.pdf) (you will need adobe acrobat to view this.

cheers

[hasayfu]

Lots of responses all over the map. I'll just pick a few to comment on and add my own.

Tit Sin is about contracting muscle - If anything, Tit Sin is about NOT contracting muscle. At one level, TS is about aligning the body so you use the least amount of muscle and the maximum tendon and ligament strength.

It's all about dynamic tension - yes and no. I hate the phrase DT and think I have posted before on this. There is no chinese phrase for DT. Many people confuse tension for muscle contraction. It's not. The tension is the stretching of the ligaments. For instance, the Kiu Sao (famouse Hung Gar bridge hand) Done correctly, there is very little muscle used. It's stretching tendon and ligament to form a tension much like a piano wire or tennis strings. To tight, and they snap. Too loose and it's useless. The Dynamic part is being able to move yin/yang, fast/slow, hard/soft and still maintain this "tension"

Why call it Iron Wire - many theories all with some validity. Hard as Iron, soft as thread(wire). Like pulling wire from hot iron, a specific tension must be maintained. Too fast, you break the wire, too slow, it clumps. And my favorite, Iron anything is just a name for a practiced skill of very high level. Wire is the ability to keep a thread of energy flowing throughout the form.

The original question, do you feel sensations - Yes. Done correctly, Tit Sin awakens the meridians and enrgizes you. Tom is right when he says that it's long and requires energy but in the end, you should feel greater then when you started. Qi is moved to the extremes of your body.

The biggest mistakes for beginners is to tense their muscles and overdo the breathing. It's why it's good to have a sifu guide you here. You really walk the line of over exertion but never cross it. To the outsider, it looks like we are doing something very different.

Going into the psychological aspects of Tit Sin is beyond what I know how to describe through a forum.

Much more can be written but that's enough for now. As kung Lek said you can always read the book. I know of at least two english translations. These, however, only give you a very basic view.

[guohuen]

Well said.

[David Jamieson]

hasayfu-

I am of the opinion that Lam sai wings book is more than a basic perspective. It really does go into the minutia of the aspect and flavour of the form.

Any practitioner with a solid base can learn this form. Any practitioner with an understanding of the fundaments of the energies used in Kungfu/Qigong training can get a lot out of whats out there.

I think it's been said before that videos and books won't do the training for you, you simply must put in the time and effort to "feel" the form and walk it.

You need even more time and energy invested to benefit from the form.

The only secret to kungfu is that you MUST practice diligently to get even halfway good at it.
If you are a beginner with less than 5 years of consistent training in, then I wouldn't recommend this approach.
But to clear up any arguments about the intent and purpose of the form as is indicated by this thread, I seriously suggest that those who are uncertain as to what this form is for and about, read master lam sai wings book on it.

It will clear up all of the questions and supositions that have been posed here.

cheers

[hasayfu]

Kung Lek,

"I am of the opinion that Lam sai wings book is more than a basic perspective. It really does go into the minutia of the aspect and flavour of the form."

Basic is a relative statement. Any book can only scratch the surface. Especially on a form like Tit Sin. I do agree that there are quite a few gems in the book and for many, it's all they have as a link to the past.

But then there are Sifus (past and present) who have learned directly from LSW and his generation. They have directly passed that knowledge to present day sifus. Those sifus have studied this set in details that the book doesn't even mention.

"Any practitioner with a solid base can learn this form... you simply must put in the time and effort to "feel" the form and walk it."

I strongly disagree with this statement. Unless your base comes from a Hung Gar master experienced with Tit Sin at a high level, you won't know what to "feel." In fact, it's my motivation for posting. (not directed at you)

Someone said "a car is a car but a porsche is not a nissan" This is quite apt to this topic. I see folks that take a little san chin, mantak chia, Kempo and a wing lam video and voila, they are experts in Tit Sin. Now I admit I don't know much about those things so I can't say how much real overlap there is but I see the resulting chop suey and it misses the mark of what Tit Sin focuses on.

"read master lam sai wings book... It will clear up all of the questions and supositions that have been posed here."

Confession #2, I have not read the books thoroughly. The chinese takes me too long and in two english translations I've skimmed, I found fairly significant interpretation diffences from how I read it in chinese.

Also, everyone should realize that neither Tit Sin book out there was actually written by Lam Sai Wing. Both came out after his death. Chu Yu Jai (1946) and Leung Dat (1995). There are quite a few significant differences in both versions.

So it's quite possible that the books clarify what was asked here.

In closing, don't read this as a knock against the books. I do read them when I get a chance and I get something out of both versions. Like you say, you need to put the time into it. The caution is using them as the "bible".

[TenTigers]

my two cents-although there are elements of 'dynamic tension' within tiet sien kuen, I would say there is more emphasis on the release of tension. Structure is everything.For example, The ability to have your bridge withstand a heavy strike, is not based on muscle tension, but on alignment, as is the case in all technique. I feel that too many people confuse power with strength. Power is applied strength,force, vectors, alignment etc, but no amount of tensing and forcing will develop this. Try perhaps, a little less, HKV.
Also, tiet sien kuen is certainly not sam jien kuen (sanchin kata). yeah, they both have 'dynamic tension' contained within their respective forms, but in both cases, it is not the lesson being taught. Harleys and Jap bikes both have wheels too (I got tired of the nissan analogy) =remember boys and girls-Jap bikes are like transvestites-they look cool, but they don't have the parts you want!

[tparkerkfo]

Hello HaSayFu,

I have to fully agree with you. Earlier some one referenced YC Wong's web site as a pointer to what Iron Wire is. My comment is that is a great discription, but don't let it limit you to that single paragraph. It is much richer and YC Wong could probably talk for days on end on that form. The same would apply to Iron wire book by "Lam Sai Wing". I have not seen that book in particular. I have seen the others though, and there is only a couple lines for each move. My training in many of those sequences are far more indepth, which leads me to beleive these are limited expressions about each move of the form. I beleive there is a lot more that could be written, and probably a lot more has been lost. Iron Wire is indeed a complicated form.

I agree with a little of what Kung Lik said. A lot can be easily understood if you have a strong base. But that really depends on your background. Hung Gar and wing chun are very different. Both are very different with Tai Chi. So it may depend on what your relating it to. Iron Wire from what I have seen and discussed with my sifu, if very unique and different. It is not a meditation form. It is not a dynamic tension form. It is not a lot of things. It is a lot of things too. My understanding is that it helps to condition the body and train the 12 bridges. It circulates the chi and revitalizes the organs. It energizes the body like a recharger. It is both hard and soft. It is very sophisticated. I have never heard of a form in ANY art that takes into account emotions or distinct sounds for specific reasons. I doubt one could simply pick up a book and pick it up. One may argue you COULD do this with Gung Gee or Fu Hok, though we may disagree, but not with Iron Wire. Heck, how would you explain the important vocal qualities?

And as a side note. I am a musician, or pretend to be, and I can respect and understand the power of resonnance. I am not sure if there is a specific resonance or tone that is associated with each sound. But I am sure that that would be important. The frequency would help with the resonance to "energize" the organs.

Just my thoughts
Tom
Tom
________
UGGS (http://uggstoreshop.com/)

[David Jamieson]

hasayfu-

agreed.
My intent was that we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Not that books and videos should be seen as the "bible" as you put it of a particular line of thinking and methodology.

It's true, these books related to Hung are probably best understood by those who have a good Hung Base.

The Hung style is very powerful and surpasses many in it's upper body strength and power generation techniques.
The Hung Practitioner can hit hard and take hard hits. This is derived from the training that is in all Hung Curriculums.

Hung fist has some of the toughest training methods available to Kungfu practitioners.

I am speaking from the viewpoint of one who had their teeth cut (so to speak) on the southern kungfu and hung fist methods.
Having trained with sifu for seven years does give me an edge when it comes to using other materials for study I have to admit.

I am now in my ninth year of Kungfu study and practice and each session reveals more to me.

anyway, carry on! :D

cheers