Tai-Tzu Tao

[Shooter]

Did my first introductory Tai-Tzu Tao class last night. It was interesting to see first-timers work through the ideas of structure and intention-(6 Harmonies), movement-(5 Elemental Steps), and application-(8 Postures and Hand Methods) in a non-stylized manner. Each participant was free-sparring within the first hour while being genuinely spontaneous with their partners even though none of them has ever done any type of MAs training before. This is very different than what I've experienced with my regular TCC classes since there has always been a specific approach to the way the sparring is structured as per each person's specific goals.

The focus is to take the basic ideas which are common to several internal systems out of the box and tailor a personalized approach, leaving it up to the individual to interpret the ideas based on their own level of understanding.

One of the people was actually using a crude circle-walk posture repeatedly as a method of recovering from an arrested turtling response. Another was using Teng-no and slamming their foot upon landing playful 'slaps' on the their partner. Everyone was able to distill their own natural way of expressing the concepts with the attitude of having nothing to gain, nothing to lose, and nothing to prove. All in all, it seems like a great way for people to dive into the combative training in a strictly recreational format.

The name, "Tai-Tzu Tao" (Great Ancestor Way) denotes a return to the simplicity and profundity of Taoist concepts as they may be applied to the study of internal martial art without attachment to stylism. The intent is to allow people to access the concepts of IMAs systems while playing at the movements of a basic 34 form without all the encumberances of classic treatises, postural strictures, and peculiar methodologies. It isn't Tai Chi, nor is it Hsing-I, nor is it Bagua.

Anyway, this is an experiment I thought I'd try as a middle way between the hard-core fighting method and the purely health-oriented study of IMAs theory. People seemed to really enjoy themselves as they made up their own play-fighting on the spot using these simple ideas. We're going to meet again and see how it all develops as a regular study group.

Anyone else have a program like this for people to just let off some steam while keeping the interaction purely recreational?

[Royal Dragon]

Are you talking about Tzu Zhan Ramen or Taoist Natural Fist?

[joedoe]

Sounds cool.

[Chang Style Novice]

Mmmm...ramen...$0.18 cents a box when you buy in bulk...art student's best friend...

[Black Jack]

Shooter-

It may not be related but it sounds similar to a free-style method of combative training me and a long time friend of mine do when we hook up.

Basically it does not use any structured approach of I do this and you do that, it is based all on your preference of fluid expression and choice of defense, be it wrong or right at the time, kinda like a modified one step but not really as the feeder can start his attack from any angle, using any method at any speed, be it slow and soft (I think Scott Sonnon calls it softwork) or hard and fast attacks, the defendor just reacts with what training or movements come natural, sometime elements of role-playing are thrown in to have pre-emptive functions, sometimes we stop in mid-stream to examine the situation or adjust a movement, sometimes it is just go all out wrestling or aggression.

The one thing that I have noticed is that when done this way it is more about hand weapon to body target attacks and their freeform decision. Meaning even if I used the same attack on my friend over and over again, his defense would have similar traits because that is what he is natural with but it would never be the same.

Hope this makes any sense. Good post btw.

[Shooter]

LOL@CSN :D

RD, I'm talking about Tai-Tzu Tao.

[Shooter]

Black Jack, very cool. The organic nature of what you described is something I've been moving toward for a while now and is very similar to the way we break down the action in the TCC training. It'll be interesting to see where it leads with each player.

[Black Jack]

My buddy has told me he has seen drills "kinda" like that in ninpo and Systema.

I enjoy doing it as it gives me and my friend a chance to "slow" down a bit and better anaylze what we are doing but if we wish still have a aggressive and forward driven mindset.

To some people I am sure it would not look "hard" enough but that is not the point of the excercise to us. It is fun and allows us to go outside of the box and find things out for ourselves without a byrote system of defense.

Cheers and it sounds like a fun class.

[Royal Dragon]

Tai-Tzu Tao

Ok, I thought it might be Taoist Natural Fist because I was under the impression thet did that stuff pretty much as you described it.

I think it is also refered to as Tai Tzuremen or something like that.

I used to think it was Tai Tzu Chang Chuan because of the words Tai Tzu in it (Yeah, I'm osessed :p ) I later found out it was a completely seperate Wu Dang art, and suposedly stresses drills just like you described.

What are the origns of this practice you speak of? Sounds like light free sparring common to all arts to me.

[Water Dragon]

Shooter,
What you're describing sounds very similar to how my Tai Chi teacher and his generation all taught.

We used the push hands to develop it. The first thing I learned was free style push hands. It was taught according to pressure you felt and finding the center. It was all free flow from day one. After about 3-6 months, they would take what you learned in the push hands (which was basically a way of "interacting" with the other guy) and let the boxing flow out of that.

The idea seems the same to me.

[Shooter]

What are the origns of this practice you speak of?

The origins are the 6 Harmonies, 5 Elemental Steps/Hands, and 8 postures/Hand methods. Just like your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The only difference is that I've actually made a point of basing the interaction on Taoist principles as they pertain to the relational apsects of human interaction. I've kinda been doing that with the TCC already, albeit on a much more structured and combative platform.


Water Dragon, that could very well be. I've never seen WCC Chen's stuff. It does differ from any type of push-hands I've ever seen since there is no preset starting point or context.

[Royal Dragon]

The origins are the 6 Harmonies, 5 Elemental Steps/Hands, and 8 postures/Hand methods. Just like your Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

Reply]
Tai Tzu is NOT a Tai Chi style. It's a Long Fist style. The main stream systems it most closley resembles is Cha Fist, or Hong Chuan. The 6 Harmonies, 5 Elements are general rules vertually all Chinese styles follow. 8 Postures is Tai Chi, which as I just said, is not Tai Tzu.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Shooter


Water Dragon, that could very well be. I've never seen WCC Chen's stuff. It does differ from any type of push-hands I've ever seen since there is no preset starting point or context.

There is a preset context. The way I was taught, that comes later. We would do a LOT of freestyle with the idea that it would tech you how to move correctly from the start.

After a while, you would put a lot of focus into the four forms (Peng-Lu-Ji-An) to "build your structure". After that, you would get into single hand push a lot more (I never got to the single hand push part)

The reasoning, as it was explained to me, was if you start with single hand push or 4 forms, there was no way you could do it right because you would just end up making circles with your arms. Better to learn to use the body correctly, then build correct structure around it.

The Tai-Tzu Tao, is that yours or did you learn it somewhere?

[Royal Dragon]

WD,
maybe I'm not getting this right, but it sounds like you free fought first?

The way I was taught, that comes later. We would do a LOT of freestyle with the idea that it would tech you how to move correctly from the start.

Reply]
Unfortunetly, this idea is wrong. By going to a free form method early on, a student will rely on what he can do, and that is usually wrong. Since he is practicing what he can do, which is wrong, he is trainng himself to be wrong.

Take the way Myong teaches, everything he does is to build your base and structure FIRST. It was all pre arranged drill, stance training, and preset technique drilling. THEN once you have it right he graduated to a more free fight enviroment. THAT is the right way to do it reguardless of style, reguardless of internal or external.

After a while, you would put a lot of focus into the four forms (Peng-Lu-Ji-An) to "build your structure". After that, you would get into single hand push a lot more (I never got to the single hand push part)

I teach the 8 basic postures first, I won't even think about the Push hands till that is correct. I thought Push Hands was easy, till I convinced my internal coach to engage me in some. He quickly showed me I was not ready yet because I didn't have the mechanics. To play with it without having the mechanics first would be to train externally and be a waste of time.

The reasoning, as it was explained to me, was if you start with single hand push or 4 forms, there was no way you could do it right because you would just end up making circles with your arms. Better to learn to use the body correctly, then build correct structure around it.

I agree with the single push hands, but not the four forms. I think it is better to start with simple Qi Gong that drill basic internal body mechanics, and then graduate to the basic 8 postures (start with the first 4) pretty quickly. It is better to do that, and refine the structure and body mechanics to a fine point useing those as your tools, than jump ahead to more advanced stuff and just "Hope" it will come out of thin air.

[Water Dragon]

I was going to write a long detailed responce explaining exactly WHY you are wrong, and trying to explain why there is NO ONE CORRECT WAY to train. I was also going to point out that a couple weeks ago you were on Max Chen's jock because he fought with Tai Chi and now you're blasting the training method he used, his Father's training method.

But instead, I'm just going to go with the short version as I'm lazy.

Royal Dragon, you're an Idiot!

[Shooter]

Water Dragon, I had no idea that WCC Chen had such a progressive method. Tai Chi by necessity. Excellent. :cool: Everyone who has ever trained with me has sparred at least a little full-contact on their first day.


Better to learn to use the body correctly, then build correct structure around it.

Agreed. Proper training and time spent. It's no wonder that the only people who understand that concept are the ones who can and will step up to bigger challenges.

The Tai-Tzu Tao program is something I developed as an experiment. It's just a paring down of internal martial art to the bare-bones of it's philosophical origins. There's no pretense to the training other than having fun and learning about the core (ancestral?) concepts and principles of IMAs.

[Water Dragon]

Yeah, it was a good training philosophy. In addition to the push hands, we also worked on form from day one. The first thing we would learn is how to move by opening and closing the hip joint (where the pelvis meets the thigh). Next the 60 movement short form is learned, but the emphasis is on using the open-close mechanic. There is no mention of application. After about 6 months of form and body mechanic work, you begin to move like this naturally.

Next, you put the kua mechanics into the push hands, and use the body method of the push hands in boxing. This is how we were taught applications: We would learn a response to a particular attack and then relate it to the form. Example, if you’re here, and he’s here, you want to attack him like this. Notice how this is just like this move in the form. We were never taught posture X is this.

I would like to note though, that the way I’m being trained now is pretty much the polar opposite. Everything is all about me. I create my structure, my structure creates the power line, and I blast through you. I don’t care what you’re doing because it doesn’t matter. I will destroy you no matter what.

The funny thing is, when I look at how my current teacher moves, and I look at how one of my old teachers move, they look exactly the same. Nathan is a little softer while Joe is a little more destroy at first chance, they both look the same when they move. Which is why I’m always trying to say there is no one right way. There’s a few different paths to the mountain top.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, it was a good training philosophy. In addition to the push hands, we also worked on form from day one. The first thing we would learn is how to move by opening and closing the hip joint (where the pelvis meets the thigh). Next the 60 movement short form is learned, but the emphasis is on using the open-close mechanic. There is no mention of application. After about 6 months of form and body mechanic work, you begin to move like this naturally.

Reply]
Ok, If you take the push hands OUT of the above, you have a pretty normal and functional and progressive training method teaching the structure and mechanics first. pretty much what I prescribed.

Next, you put the kua mechanics into the push hands, and use the body method of the push hands in boxing. This is how we were taught applications: We would learn a response to a particular attack and then relate it to the form. Example, if you’re here, and he’s here, you want to attack him like this. Notice how this is just like this move in the form. We were never taught posture X is this.

Ok, who's the idiot now? In the first post you acted like you just free fought first, and now all of a sudden your telling me your teacher taught you, the way I said was right, and not the way you said he taught you before?

I was also going to point out that a couple weeks ago you were on Max Chen's jock because he fought with Tai Chi and now you're blasting the training method he used

Larry, you just changed your story. You went form acting like you just were thrown in and went free style with no base to work off of, to saying you were trained pretty much how I said you should be. Make up my mind will Ya?? :rolleyes:


And just what makes me and idiot anyway? because I stated learning the structure and mechanics FIRST was the right way to do this? (Which it now seems that IS how you were taught after all) You can't just get thrown into the mix, with no education, and expect to be practicing correctly. If your not practicing correctly, then you are mastering the art of being wrong.

I have to tell you Larry your a fu(k'n nitwhit some times. :rolleyes:

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[i]

[i]

And just what makes me and idiot anyway?

Do you really want me to state it publicly? If so, just say the word and I will.

[Royal Dragon]

Sure go ahead, If your perspective is true, then so be it. If not I'm more than capable of defendiing myself.

Hell, why don't you just start a thread titled "Why Royal Dragon is an idiot" so we don't hijack this one.

[Shooter]

You can't just get thrown into the mix, with no education, and expect to be practicing correctly. If your not practicing corrctly, then you are mastering the art of being wrong.

This is such a misdirected and narrow understanding of what IMAs is really all about. The main reason I put together the Tai-Tzu program is to prove the flaw in that kind of thinking. I've already proven it in the orthodox TCC I practice.

In my regular Tai Chi boxing class, I have guys going full-contact from day-1. They learn TCC as they go. They learn to avoid whatever points of failure they encounter along the way by applying sound TCC principles and methods whenever they see the pattern of failure being repeated. Tai Chi by necessity.

Back to what IMAs is really all about; The essence of internal martial art is spontaneity. Tai-Tzu Tao is an effort to test that basic truth with essentially nothing but the 6 Harmonies and Taoist concepts. We'll see...

[Royal Dragon]

They learn to avoid whatever points of failure they encounter along the way by applying sound TCC principles and methods whenever they see the pattern of failure being repeated

How can they apply sound TCC principals if they don't know any? WD even admited to spending 6 months doing little else but work structure and mechanics (of course that was AFTER he claimed to be doing it your way :rolleyes: )

From what I see, you only teach them a Tai Chi principal when they fail. Basically if they muscle through it and win that is not Tai chi, but it is also not failure, so they will learn to muscle through.

Also, it takes quite some time to learn the mechanics in the internal arts, then longer to make them spontainious. It's not something that you can learn "Under fire".

I submit that you don't understand them yourself if you can't see it.

Teaching is a step by step progressive thing. You don't teach a kid to read by giving them a Stephen King Book and say "Have at it kid"

You teach them the alphabet first, then simple words, then simple sentences, and then biger more complex ones, and paragraphs etc...

Oh, an one more thing, you are not doing Tai tzu. Name your method after some other art it's not, like Wing Chun or something. There is too much confusion in the US over what Tai tzu is or isn't as it is.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Sure go ahead, If your perspective is true, then so be it. If not I'm more than capable of defendiing myself.


Reason 1. Because the first time you show up to my class, you have the gall to try and correct MY TEACHER while he is correcting me. Then, when you try to demonstrate, instead of doing the throw, you Chung me in the chest

Reason 2. Because instead of training when you show up, you just talk. Then you go on the internet and try to sound like you actually train.

Reason 3. Because you have had access to not one, but THREE high quality schools and have chosen to ignore all of them so you can “learn” from videotapes

Reason 4. Not everything you see posted on the internet is Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, no matter how much you want to think it is.

Reason 5. Because you manage to **** off pretty much every person with any skill that you come across. Both on the internet and in real life.

Reason 6. Because you know what the proper way to train is, you just don’t do it. Then you try and show what you didn’t learn by demonstrating a Tai Tzu form. Those smiles you saw were NOT because people were impressed

Reason 7. Because you’ll read this post and blame everything on your health problems. Newsflash: You’re not the only person with a bad back. Some people figure out how to train through it.

Reason 8. Because even though you don’t train with any of the group[s you’re always mentionoing, you constantly post what we say and how we think and what we do as if that will give you some sort of legitimacy.

Reason 9. Because you actually want to go out and teach what you can’t do. In addition to that, you try to argue all the time with MMA guys about what fighting is when you can’t even do it. And that makes all CMA look bad.

Reason 10. Because you have absolutely NO RESPECT for those who came before you and have put in the time and the work to get the skill. Instead, whenever someone of merit gives you a piece of advise, you want to argue and tell them why they are wrong.

And don’t you EVER insult my teachers or their training methods again. Past or present.

[Shooter]

I'm easily the strongest (muscle-head) player in my school. Anyone who encounters points of failure when they spar with me couldn't muscle their way through if they tried. They have to do something, anything, but use muscle. Tai Chi is their method when I put the power to them. The success they achieve via that route is all the proof they need.

When they spar with someone weaker, I tell them to give the weaker person all they got. Then when the weaker player reaches a point of failure, I show them TCC's recovery method. We rewind the action to the point where things began to deteriorate. We ignore the obvious breaking point because failure begins to occur long before it becomes catastrophic.

I don't pretend to teach anyone anything. Teachers are people who put themselves above their charges. TCC is self-taught. I don't expect you to know the meaning of that though.


Also, it takes quite some time to learn the mechanics in the internal arts, then longer to make them spontainious. It's not something that you can learn "Under fire".

This tells me all I need to know. You couldn't be more incorrect. You don't actually test your learning beyond your comfort zone, to failure, against guys who really want to hurt you and don't give a crap about your Tai Chi, do you?

I arrived at the name, "Tai-Tzu Tao" as a matter of course in denoting the spirit of what it's all about. The name stays.

[dezhen2001]

hey shooter - good luck with your new class :)

dawood

[Black Jack]

Ooops!!

I thought I had been feeling some internet tension for a bit now between two said groups, I was wondering when someone was going to blow off some cyber steam, aren't training partners from the same school supposed to have a kind of brotherhood going on?

Shooter- Have you ever heard of a combat tai chi guy by the name of Dr. Andrew Miller, he is the guy who taught Anthony Perkins (Attack Proof-Book) and was the head of the Degerberg Academy in Chicago.

Just curious?

Cheers

[Water Dragon]

Yes Black Jack. you are correct. I have nothing but respect and loyalty for any member of my school, Teacher, Senior, or Junior.

[fa_jing]

Round 1 goes to Larry on the judges' scorecard. These internet battles can be pretty bloody, eh? Might need a referee stoppage before too long.

:eek::cool:

[Black Jack]

I am just joshing around with you Water,

Sometimes peeps just have to settle their business. People get ****ed off. Sometimes they are right to be so.

I mean right now take me, if my old lady comes home and finds me alternating between KFO posting and doing sets of dumbell shoulder presses in just my superman boxer shorts in front of the dresser mirror, when I am supposed to be getting ready to see the movie "Williard", I am a deadman.

[fa_jing]

ROFLMAO@BJ

[Royal Dragon]

Reason 1. Because the first time you show up to my class, you have the gall to try and correct MY TEACHER while he is correcting me. Then, when you try to demonstrate, instead of doing the throw, you Chung me in the chest

Reply]
I don't remeber that incedent, but if anything, I remeber YOU not getting what he was trying to tell you, and me re wording it so you'd understand. Maybe I was out of line, sorry.

[Additon] Actually, I do seem to remember hitting you with a rather soft palm strike once during a throw. If it bothered you, you don't belong in this game. I never knocked you out or anything. Nor did I ever CHOKE you out so bad you had a soar throat for 3 weeks.

Reason 2. Because instead of training when you show up, you just talk. Then you go on the internet and try to sound like you actually train.

Reply]
Hmm, I seem to remember it differntly. I remeber getting annoyed because you were doing too much talking. Also remeber trainig till my back went out so bad I was layed up for several days on a nubmer of occasions

Reason 3. Because you have had access to not one, but THREE high quality schools and have chosen to ignore all of them so you can “learn” from videotapes.


Reply]
Not so, I have a very demanding scedual, and a pretty toopsi turvy life. I do what I can, when I can. It's not a matter of ignoring, it's a matter of knowing what my priorities are, and I really can't train when most people have classes scedualed. You honeslty think Brian would keep teaching me when my back kept going out to the point I was hobbling in pain every class? Do you honestly think that is a good thing to do health wise?

Reason 4. Not everything you see posted on the internet is Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, no matter how much you want to think it is.

Reply]
Nope, especially not this thread.

Reason 5. Because you manage to **** off pretty much every person with any skill that you come across. Both on the internet and in real life.

Reply]
Really? Maybe I do. I am very out spoken, and come to my own conclusions. Although quite a few people **** me off to. I have met alot of martial artist in my life, but so far only a small few have REALLY stood out. Those are the ones I will persue when I am good and ready.

Reason 6. Because you know what the proper way to train is, you just don’t do it. Then you try and show what you didn’t learn by demonstrating a Tai Tzu form. Those smiles you saw were NOT because people were impressed

Reply]
Ok, how do you know I don't do it? You may be interested to knw that I ened up in your group because I was sent there by someone who seemed to have compatable training views to mine.

Oh, and Joe asked to see it form BTW. I didn't offer it, and I didn't do the whole thing, and I was in so much pain that day, that I didn't even participate in the seminar. Did you think to ask your self why I would train as hard as I could in the park, but I didn't do anything but walk around at the seminar? I was hurting quite a bit that day, and I didn't want to do a demo. Not the form, and not that stupid messed up Chung moo Quan throw either. I did it to oblige Joe.

Reason 7. Because you’ll read this post and blame everything on your health problems. Newsflash: You’re not the only person with a bad back. Some people figure out how to train through it.

Reply]
Ha!!, I tell you what "Larry" How about I give you all the health probelmes I have lived with the last 2 years, and lets see what you do. My doctors told me I was done. Yet I managed to bounce back quite a bit. I know what I can do, and I also know I tend to over do things. My health problems are 100% the cause of my training problems.

And what the ****s a matter with you for attacking a guy who's had alot of health problems in the last 2 years anyway? What kind os a ****ing ******* do you have to be to do that.

Some people figure out how to train through it.

Figure out how to "Train Through it"!!?!?!?! What kind of a F<B></B>ucking as hole are you anyway?? I had doctors tell me I was looking at being PARALIYSED if I over did it. I was doing too much as it is and a young punk like you says I should have just "Trained through it???" What's your problem anyway? Who do you think you are??

I think it is pretty damma arrogant of you to judge me and act like I had a "Mear" bad back. The issues go much deeper than that and you should KNOW that by seeing me perform. If you have payed attention to anything I said, you'd know that.

Your an ignorant ass who thinks he knows more than he does. When I was 28, I would have moped the floor with you at the level you were at when we were training together in the basement. No questions.

Reason 8. Because even though you don’t train with any of the group[s you’re always mentionoing, you constantly post what we say and how we think and what we do as if that will give you some sort of legitimacy.

Reply]
Your refering to the comment about Myongs teaching method? The man is right about how he does things, and his perspective is one you respect. He DOES the same thing I was "Saying". But some how from me you don't take it to heart. With you it's not the substance of the argument, it's who's argument it is, isn't it.

Reason 9. Because you actually want to go out and teach what you can’t do.

Reply]
First off son, I was teaching since about 1994, an before the injury, I was able to do the stuff we worked on together, and a whole hell of alot more. Just because I can't do it now, does not mean I could never do it, and it does not mean I forgot how to teach it.

In addition to that, you try to argue all the time with MMA guys about what fighting is when you can’t even do it. And that makes all CMA look bad.

Reply]
What?? When was the last time I did THAT? And even when I WAS doing it, what did I say that was wrong?

Also who says I don't know how to fight? You?? You have never seen me uninjured pal. All you have seen me do was learning some new drills and suffer through great back pain. My pre injury self would have cripplled you in a heart beat.


Reason 10. Because you have absolutely NO RESPECT for those who came before you and have put in the time and the work to get the skill. Instead, whenever someone of merit gives you a piece of advise, you want to argue and tell them why they are wrong.

Reply]
Not so, but I DO argue my belifes with those of differning opinion, especially on training methodology. If thier arguments can't hold up to challenge then they are going to loose a debate to me. I don't care who they are, or how long they have done this. This is a DISCUSSION forum. Not a follow blindly and worship everyone who don's a Black belt board.

And don’t you EVER insult my teachers or their training methods again. Past or present.

Reply]
I have never insulted any of your teachers. I don't know where you got this crazy idea. And I have never insulted their methods. I have pointed out areas I feel that are wrong, and I have posted my reasons why I felt that way. That is not insulting, that is challeging ideas, and pointing out flaws in thinking. That is something that is usually done in a debate or discussion.

If your teachers want to be worshiped un-challeged, then they should stay off of discussion forums because there are an uncountable number of people like me live to challege others perspectives.

Now, if you want an insult, here it is

I think your a winny litte baby who has alot of growing up to do and ALOT to learn about life. If you feel insulted by anything I did in the past (Like saying John Wang's argument was silly on EF), then you area an overly sensitve ***** and you need to go grab your security blanket and go hide with it somewhere.

[SevenStar]

same school?

[Water Dragon]

SevenStar is correct

Royal Dragon is not

[Oso]

I mean right now take me, if my old lady comes home and finds me alternating between KFO posting and doing sets of dumbell shoulder presses in just my superman boxer shorts in front of the dresser mirror, when I am supposed to be getting ready to see the movie "Williard", I am a deadman.

just goes to show...nothing beats wife-fu:) :)

[Royal Dragon]

Seven Star is correct about what?

I'm easily the strongest (muscle-head) player in my school. Anyone who encounters points of failure when they spar with me couldn't muscle their way through if they tried. They have to do something, anything, but use muscle. Tai Chi is their method when I put the power to them. The success they achieve via that route is all the proof they need.

Still though, how do they "Get" Tai Chi if they don't even have a foundation in it's basic structure and mechanics?? How to they learn something they don't do? You can't just take a kid, and put him in a race car, and expect him to just "Get it" on the fly.

When they spar with someone weaker, I tell them to give the weaker person all they got. Then when the weaker player reaches a point of failure, I show them TCC's recovery method.

How can they get the "Method" if they never got the mechanics behind it? The mechanics drive the method. Without that, you just have an external technique that "Looks" like the Tai Chi.


We rewind the action to the point where things began to deteriorate. We ignore the obvious breaking point because failure begins to occur long before it becomes catastrophic.

You know, it sounds more and more like you are trying to teach people "How" to use Tai Chi, but don't actually teach them the foundation first. Your students will be very weak on the basics if this is what you are doing. When they fight, it won't be Tai Chi as Tai his is in a large part defined by it's mechanics.

I don't pretend to teach anyone anything. Teachers are people who put themselves above their charges. TCC is self-taught. I don't expect you to know the meaning of that though.

LOL!!!, my whole system is pretty much self taught. I understand that deeply. But just the same, you have to have the basics fundementals, structure, body mechanics from people that know them.

It sounds more like you are runnning a study group type of situation, and not really teaching anyone in a formal teacher - student relationship (Nothing wrong with that btw).


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, it takes quite some time to learn the mechanics in the internal arts, then longer to make them spontainious. It's not something that you can learn "Under fire".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



This tells me all I need to know. You couldn't be more incorrect. You don't actually test your learning beyond your comfort zone, to failure, against guys who really want to hurt you and don't give a crap about your Tai Chi, do you?

See, here's the problem, I'm not discouting your method, I'm saying it should be taught AFTER the fundementals, structure and body mechanics have become proficient, not inplace of them as you seem to be advocating. This takes time and focused dedication. Once you have that down well, THEN you do what you do. It's not an either or kind of thing. You need both, in the proper order.

Also, you are right, I don't fight my taiji. All my fighting experiacne has been with the externals. I started concentrateing on my Taiji AFTER my collapse because it was all I could do. It brought me back form death practically. Still though, Taiji is not that much different then the externals in that you must learn the foundatuion, structure and body mechanics first, before you can use them in a free fight enviroment.

Also, about the "Tai Tzu", Just don't go telling pepole you are doing Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and make sure you are very clear YOU developed your method reacently. Don't go letting people think that your reacently developed method is some sort of ancient art. That is fradulant, and there are already guys in the US teaching Hsing I, Taiji, And Bagua that are going around telling everyone they are doing authentic Tai Tzu Chang Chuan when they are not.

To be honest, your use of the wording is at least mis leading as there is no "Great Ancestor" here. It's your method, you made it up, and it is a modern approach. There is nothing ancient about it.

[dezhen2001]

BJ and Oso... know what u mean, except my other half is a 2nd dan in a GOOD tkd school. not looking forward to those beat downs :(:D

dawood

[Shooter]

How can they get the "Method" if they never got the mechanics behind it?

You keep talking about the fundamentals/basics/foundation, mechanics, etc, in your posts here and elsewhere, but I've yet to see you discuss those things with any depth or real understanding. You yourself say that you don't fight or engage any type of pressure testing of the basics, so you can't possibly know what you're talking about. That explains your lack of real understanding. You're just like Fu-pow and Muppet and all the other people who parrot their bookish knowledge as though it's their reality.

The only thing my training partners do for at least a year is Chi Kung (structure, mechanics, TCC's movement and energy-management principles) and spar. Regardless, if you're still so blinkered and narrow in your capacity to appreciate the process which I've outlined countless times in a number of different ways, and you still fail to see the consistancy of it all, forget it. How could you though? You don't actually test your theories, so there ya go.


It sounds more like you are runnning a study group type of situation, and not really teaching anyone in a formal teacher - student relationship

I don't take credit for what my training partners accomplish and I sure as hell don't try to pretend they're my students. They've done more for themselves than anyone can take credit for.



Also, about the "Tai Tzu", Just don't go telling pepole you are doing Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and make sure you are very clear YOU developed your method reacently.

It's your method, you made it up, and it is a modern approach. There is nothing ancient about it.

The 6 Harmonies are as old as Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, are they not? Taoist principles are as old as dirt.They're the 'great ancestral ways' of Tai-Tzu Tao. Anyway, my honesty and integrity is self-governed. I don't need some no-trainin' puss telling me what I can and can't do. Just for that bad mistake though, I'm gonna start my video correspondence of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan and take it further than you ever will. Then we'll see who the fraud is. :eek: :p

[Shooter]

Hey, dez! :D Thanx man. :)

Black Jack, I've heard of the gentleman before but don't know anything about his Tai Chi. Sounds interesting though. Thanks.

[dezhen2001]

np man :)

i have no idea what yall are arguing about as its over my head but i thought id give u a heads up anyway.

dawood

[Royal Dragon]

Your going to start selling a course in Tai Tzu Chang Chaun? You don't even know Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. How the hell are you going to do that? If you do, you would be another in a big pile of Martial frauds like Temple Kung Fu, Oom Yung Doe, Shaolin Do etc...

Or did you mean you're going to take someone elses course? If so, good luck. maybe if you nice to me, and give me enough $$ I loan you my contact list. You might find a teacher willing to work with you if you approach them right. :rolleyes:

As for your "System" You are telling everyone that you don't teach anything but fighting. You throw your students (Who you claim to not teach) directly into fighting with no training of basic structure, mechanics or principal, and just expect them to "Get it" when you show them a mehtod to deal with a situation they failed in.

I'm saying you can't do that and expect them to learn an art as sophisitcated as Taiji Quan without some time to learn the basic mechanics and make them part of the natural body motion. How can you expect a student who has never been taught how to close kua, round his shoulders or coil to perform a mehtod that requires these actions? You must first teach him to do all these things, and they must be drilled to the point where he does not have to think about them because there is not time to think about fighting, AND body mechanics and power generation at the same time. These aspects need to have been drilled into sheer instinct before they can ever hope to be applied under pressure. It is too much for a beginner student to get just this right, let alone try to fight with what they don't understand to begin with. If you want them to fight fast, teach them a simpler system, like Kick Boxing.

I can see why people say you don't do real Taiji. You may fight with some Taijish concepts, but it's not real Taiji without the fundementals. It is clear you don't teach them because you are in too much of a rush to fight students before they are ready.

You are probably a better guy for someone who has already mastered their fundementals and does not need to be taught from the ground up.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Still though, how do they "Get" Tai Chi if they don't even have a foundation in it's basic structure and mechanics?? How to they learn something they don't do? You can't just take a kid, and put him in a race car, and expect him to just "Get it" on the fly.


What you would do with someone who is learning to drive a race car (or anything else in which you want to maximize performance) is to teach them a bit and then let them try it out for real. The race car driver who has been trying his stuff out "on the fly" as he is going through the learning process will be much better than the driver who supposedly "masters" all the material before actually getting on the race course.

The best way to create superior fighters is to make sure they are working their stuff in uncooperative situations long before they are technically "proficient" in all the basics.

[Royal Dragon]

You STILL have to get them doing the basic structure and body mechanics in an at least Useable way, before you just throw them to the wolves. He's not only not getting them useable, he's not teaching them at all. He's just throwing them out inot the fght wiht no preperation. At least that is what he is claiming.

As with the race car driver, he has to know how to control the car, how to steer, how to brake, and how to accellerate or what to do if he goes into a spin. Learning Taji is the same way. You need to learn to round the shoulders, tuck the tail bone, open close the kua and how to issue power with those mechanics. Once they can be done uncoinciously with reasonable efficiency, THEN you can start with the resisting opponent stuff to perfect the skills in combat.

These mechanics are difficult to learn, and if you throw someone into a fight before they have become unconcious action, the student will not use them and just go with whatever natural instinct they have. If he was a Kick Boxer in the past for example, he will resort to Kick Boxing, and not be doing Taiji

[Shooter]

Man, too bad the irony of my last line was wasted on you. LOL I thought it was hilarious.

I know 2 people who include TTCC in their training. One of them teaches commercially and the other only has one student. These guys are the real deal. Unlike some people who only learn through video (which I would never do, btw)...it was a joke.


blah blah blah blah...

You still don't get it. Did you even read my posts? Nevermind...I'm trying to tell a well-frog what the ocean's like.


Knifefighter, thank you, sir. :cool:

[Royal Dragon]

You actually know someone who does Tai Tzu Chang Chaun? That would really suprise me. Unless you are talking about those guys who claim to know it in NC.

On the other subject, what makes you think you can just tell your studnets to spar, without making sure they have solid basics first?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Your going to start selling a course in Tai Tzu Chang Chaun? You don't even know Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. How the hell are you going to do that? If you do, you would be another in a big pile of Martial frauds like Temple Kung Fu, Oom Yung Doe, Shaolin Do etc...

This coming from someone who is teaching a style he learned through video-correspondence?

Am I missing something here?

[Royal Dragon]

One, I don't teach it really.

Two, he does not even KNOW the style. How can he produce a course in the style, and start selling it?

[dezhen2001]

i think he was just trying to **** u off mate?

dawood

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
You STILL have to get them doing the basic structure and body mechanics in an at least Useable way, before you just throw them to the wolves.


Originally posted by Shooter
It was interesting to see first-timers work through the ideas of structure and intention-(6 Harmonies), movement-(5 Elemental Steps), and application-(8 Postures and Hand Methods) in a non-stylized manner.

Sounds like he show them some basic principles first- then had them try it out- then gave them feedback. I think current teaching theory would readily support this approach.

[Shooter]

He's just throwing them out inot the fght wiht no preperation. At least that is what he is claiming

This isn't what I'm claiming. It's what you're claiming. You've either lost all sense of reason or you choose not to acknowledge the countless times I've cited Chi Kung and all that its study entails as the foundation upon which my training partners base their Tai Chi in their first year of training.

I know 2 guys in BC who are doing TTCC. One of them has been at it since before you or I were born.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
One, I don't teach it really.

What do you teach?

[Royal Dragon]

This isn't what I'm claiming. It's what you're claiming. You've either lost all sense of reason or you choose not to acknowledge the countless times I've cited Chi Kung and all that its study entails as the foundation upon which my training partners base their Tai Chi in their first year of training.

When did you mention that?

In your original post, you said:

"Each participant was free-sparring within the first hour while being genuinely spontaneous with their partners even though none of them has ever done any type of MAs training before. "

Reply]
One hour? sounds like you threw them to the wolves to me!!

Knifefighter,
Right now, not much. I used to teach Shaolin through a Kids Kung Fu program I founded, and I have a Taiji Quan for health class. I have also had a number of adult students in the past, but when I got them to the point where it was time to gear up and fight, they would generally lose intrest once they had to test their skills aganst each other in a full resisting way. They seemed to love the system so long as it was all forms and pre arranged techniques. Once there was contact, or hard physical training (like intense circute training), they'd quit. The kids were actually much tougher.

I was going to open a comercial school, but I backed out of the deal due to some bad politics going on at the gym I was putting it at. Now I teach the Taiji for health class, and I have a student or two that I do my Kung fu drills with ocasionally after the class.

In all honesty, I have had alot of health problems in the last few years, and I'm not really up to teaching anymore. I just want to train on my own, and work with someone who is dedicated to the same goals as I am. I'd quit teaching the Taiji class if I wasn't useing the money to finance my daughter's gymnastics.

Once I'm fully back on my feet, i want to get some adult studnets i can get to the point of being ready to free fight, but I'm not going to actually free fight wiht them, just the pre arranged dtills. then I will find someone else to free fight with. I might check out Hackney's acadamy (Yes, I may look to MMA guys), or most likekly go train with Choi fi he accepts me as a student. I have to be ready before I make another commitment. The last time I tried I was still pretty messed up, and it all went badly.

[Black Jack]

Sorry to get involved as I don't want to jump on any bandwagon but I found this memory related in a way. I would like to point out that I have seen a few grappling schools and even back when I did JKD Concepts have their beginning students start off by "rolling" naturally with no specific set by set tactics or principles.

I always thought this was a good thing, it helped the student to just get into it, get a feel first hand, to start experiencing and thinking for themselves on the 1st day, techniques, drills and principles were worked on later, but in the beginning just grab your partner and wrastle!

It also helps the learning streak to add a bit of fun in their ya know. :D

Shooter- Thanks and it was just a lark as I saw the gents name in my area and wondered if you knew of what he did as I recongized him from a tribute in the Perkins book.

Cheers ya bunch of buttwhistles

[Shooter]

The Tai Chi Chuan is a combat oriented group of dedicated researchers. The Tai-Tzu Tao is a recreational study group. Two very different animals.

No "wolves" in the Tai-Tzu Tao group - Yet. Thus, the recreational nature of the training is maintained. Some may want to take it to another level, and we have that covered for them.

Don't pretend you're confusing the Tai Chi players with the Tai-Tzu Tao players.



Sounds like he show them some basic principles first- then had them try it out- then gave them feedback. I think current teaching theory would readily support this approach.

Knifefighter is correct.

So is Black Jack.

[Black Jack]

Royal,

Incase that does not work out for you, their is a gentleman who seems to be very esteemed in the chinese arts who teaches Northern Long Fist out of the Naperville Park District up here by Ogden.

Golden Mountain Kung Fu Academy.

[Royal Dragon]

Black Jack, I have alread spoken to Golden Mountian. I think in the long run it won't work out as I am not able to give him the dedication he wants. He has limited space, and would probably want to use it for someone who's not going to be taking weeks off at a time.

I need some training partners, and some space. I was hoping to set up some general public classes at a local gymnastics club. I could run the general recreational classes, and have a home to work with some more dedicated training partners, but I ended up pulling out of the deal due to some really bad politics going in inside the club.

To be honest, I don't want to teach anymore. I need to get my Kung Fu back first. My experiance with Larry's group went really bad from what it appears, and I don't want to really be around untill I can "instill" some respect in others. I need to get back in shape first.

Right now there is a small health club I am working out in. They let me do whatever I want in thier Yoga room, so long as they are not holding classes in them. When my strength, speed and endurance is at least 2/3's of what it once was, I will be looking to find some good training partners to fight with. And it won't be little mamma boy's that get mad about light palm strikes to the chest either, it's going to be the hard hitting animal types, like I was use to pounding on hard in the past.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
it's going to be the hard hitting animal types, like I was use to pounding on hard in the past.

The older I get the better I was.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Water Dragon]

Two Points:

1. It is not "My" Group. I simply train within the group. I am a student.

2. My opinion is my own. I pretend to speak for no one else.

[Royal Dragon]

LOL@ Knifefighter

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Royal,

Incase that does not work out for you, their is a gentleman who seems to be very esteemed in the chinese arts who teaches Northern Long Fist out of the Naperville Park District up here by Ogden.

Golden Mountain Kung Fu Academy.

We all know him quite well. He's awesome, to say the least.

[Royal Dragon]

We all know him quite well. He's awesome, to say the least.

Reply]
Yeah, I have to agree. I was pretty impressed by him too. I'd never be able to give him the dedication he wants though :(

[Black Jack]

Sevenstar-

Way back in the early 90's I remeber seeing him and his class do some weapon work. It was more on accident as I went with some friends to check out the park district and one of them happened to know of two twin students who trained at the school, students who from what I remeber were very, very good.

We watched them do weapons, I remeber in detail one of the twins doing a fast spear kuen and sticking it in the tiled ceiling, which got a good natured chuckle from everybody as it was pretty funny, I also remeber seeing the teacher do some flexiable weapon work and was blown away, seemed like a upfront and very pleasent fellow who was more than open to questions from those in the crowd.

[Black Jack]

Royal, just remembered

Incase you don't know about him their is a teacher who from what I understand is also the real deal and he teaches Northern Long Fist and Choy Lay Fut at the Wheaton Park District.

My fiancee used to work their part time and I remeber meeting him once and the guy had forearms like Popeye.

I believe one of Joe's Kun Tao students was a long time student under him in Long Fist.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
You STILL have to get them doing the basic structure and body mechanics in an at least Useable way, before you just throw them to the wolves. He's not only not getting them useable, he's not teaching them at all. He's just throwing them out inot the fght wiht no preperation. At least that is what he is claiming.

As with the race car driver, he has to know how to control the car, how to steer, how to brake, and how to accellerate or what to do if he goes into a spin. Learning Taji is the same way. You need to learn to round the shoulders, tuck the tail bone, open close the kua and how to issue power with those mechanics. Once they can be done uncoinciously with reasonable efficiency, THEN you can start with the resisting opponent stuff to perfect the skills in combat.

These mechanics are difficult to learn, and if you throw someone into a fight before they have become unconcious action, the student will not use them and just go with whatever natural instinct they have. If he was a Kick Boxer in the past for example, he will resort to Kick Boxing, and not be doing Taiji

But, how does the race car driver know how to regain control of the car after going into a spin if he's never done it? He doesn't, in application. If he's been to classes, read books, etc. THEORETICALLY he knows how to regain control, but he has no practical experience. If you show a student a technique and he worked it every day, had the for mastered, but never worked it against a resisting opponent, do you think he'll be able to use it when he has to?

OTOH, if you show him a technique and have him work it with immediately, he gets the experinece of using it, begins to recognize when to use it, and with the aid of his teacher, make corrections to his technique as he goes along. The studente will become more proficient faster. This is the same approach we use in grappling. Take Judo as an example: you learn how to fall. Once you have it down, you spend a class learning ippon seionage (one arm shoulder throw) The next class, you will actually throw people with it so you can feel what it's like to kazushi )off balance) your opponent, and feel what it's like to do the throw. You will also be thrown with it so that you know how the throw feels and you can work your breakfalls. Now, you know how to fall and you know an attack - you have all you need to start randori. through randori, you learn how to maintain your balance and steal your opponent's and you feel what it's like to try the throw in real time. your technique will be coached by your teacher, and you will improve still.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Royal, just remembered

Incase you don't know about him their is a teacher who from what I understand is also the real deal and he teaches Northern Long Fist and Choy Lay Fut at the Wheaton Park District.

My fiancee used to work their part time and I remeber meeting him once and the guy had forearms like Popeye.

I believe one of Joe's Kun Tao students was a long time student under him in Long Fist.

was it lil j? he trained longfist before he started kuntao.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Sevenstar-

Way back in the early 90's I remeber seeing him and his class do some weapon work. It was more on accident as I went with some friends to check out the park district and one of them happened to know of two twin students who trained at the school, students who from what I remeber were very, very good.

We watched them do weapons, I remeber in detail one of the twins doing a fast spear kuen and sticking it in the tiled ceiling, which got a good natured chuckle from everybody as it was pretty funny, I also remeber seeing the teacher do some flexiable weapon work and was blown away, seemed like a upfront and very pleasent fellow who was more than open to questions from those in the crowd.

He's great. his students are impressive too.

[Royal Dragon]

But, how does the race car driver know how to regain control of the car after going into a spin if he's never done it? He doesn't, in application. If he's been to classes, read books, etc. THEORETICALLY he knows how to regain control, but he has no practical experience.

Reply]
Hmmm, Basically, you learn how to control the car. Once you have the basics down well, you go out on ice or some other slippery surface and learn to deal with low speed spins, then up grade to water and go a bit faster, and finnally concrete. Either way, he STILLL has to have a master of the basics before he can even THINK about jumping into a race and running 180 MPH or more. Heck, they won't even let you race unless you can prove you can drive on an empty track. You have PLENTY of time to develop and hone basic skills (the "Mechanics" of driving) before you are ever put into a race. Once they have that, you get on the track, and learn how to actually win races, not before. Fighting is no different, ESPECIALLY Taiji Quan. The mechanics are too diffficult to master to just go out and play expecting to get it right. It's not simple like grappleling. Heck, even boxing is simple. I'm sure both those discaplines you can just throw guys in the ring and have them fight wth no foundational training, even if it's sloppy.
The mechanics of thoses arts are not all that complicated
In Taiji Quan, if you don't have those mechanics, you don't have Taiji Quan, you just have yet another external style like Boxing or wrestling.


If you show a student a technique and he worked it every day, had the for mastered, but never worked it against a resisting opponent, do you think he'll be able to use it when he has to?

Reply]
If he had it mastered that means he HAS worked it against a resisting opponent. You still have to master the structure, body mechanics, and fundemetals to do it right before you are ready to go against a resisting opponent. If you go to early, before these mechanics are developed to the point of unconcious thought, the student will be trying to think is way through it and lose because he's too busy thinking about the body mechanics, and not the fight. This will cause him to alter his game and start doing something that does not require thniking, ie use simpler mechanics. In which case he's not doing Taiji Quan anymore. How can you learn something your not doing?. It is better too master the structure, mecnahics and basics first, that way when you are going against a resisting opponent, you don't slow yourself down with the thinking process. Heck, even BJJ guys drill basic techniques before they try to fight with them. It's a pretty simple concept.

You can't write a book, if you can't write the letters used to make words now can you?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Hmmm, Basically, you learn how to control the car. Once you have the basics down well, you go out on ice or some other slippery surface and learn to deal with low speed spins, then up grade to water and go a bit faster, and finnally concrete. Either way, he STILLL has to have a master of the basics before he can even THINK about jumping into a race and running 180 MPH or more.

That's one of those areas where we agree to disagree. You would get much better progress out of him by showing him how to do it, then letting him get the experience of actually trying it, while simulataneously showing him what he did wrong.


Heck, they won't even let you race unless you can prove you can drive on an empty track. You have PLENTY of time to develop and hone basic skills (the "Mechanics" of driving) before you are ever put into a race. Once they have that, you get on the track, and learn how to actually win races, not before.

We're not talking about winning, we're merely talking about learning the technique efficiently and properly. IMO, it's more efficient to show him and then let him work it against resistance. sticking with the race car example, the guy who has actually been in a spin will be better equipped to handle it than the racer who has only read books on how to deal with a spin.


Fighting is no different, ESPECIALLY Taiji Quan. The mechanics are too diffficult to master to just go out and play expecting to get it right. It's not simple like grappleling.

Congratulations, you've just said the funniest d@mn thing I've ever heard. grappling? simple? you HAVE to be joking. the subtle mechanics involed in grappling are EXTREMELY complicated. I odn't know of anything else where technique alignment that is only an inch off can totally screw your whole technique.


The mechanics of thoses arts are not all that complicated
In Taiji Quan, if you don't have those mechanics, you don't have Taiji Quan, you just have yet another external style like Boxing or wrestling.

:rolleyes: Go to a few classes at the BJJ school WD was going to. I can guarantee you won't leave feeling that way. Angel manfreddy has a boxing gym in your area too. Stop by.



If he had it mastered that means he HAS worked it against a resisting opponent. You still have to master the structure, body mechanics, and fundemetals to do it right before you are ready to go against a resisting opponent. If you go to early, before these mechanics are developed to the point of unconcious thought, the student will be trying to think is way through it and lose because he's too busy thinking about the body mechanics, and not the fight.

Actually, that's exactly what you want. You want to have them think through like that in class while sparring. Let them FEEL where there technique was off, and then help them understand WHY. I bet you'll find that your student will learn faster.



Heck, even BJJ guys drill basic techniques before they try to fight with them. It's a pretty simple concept.

Sure we do. that doesn't take months though. Drill it for an hour, then roll and make a conscious effort to use it while rolling. If you try and can't get it to work, try again the next time you have the opportunity. Ask your opponent to stop, then call someone over and have them correct what you are doing wrong. then try it again.

You can't write a book, if you can't write the letters used to make words now can you?

You can't write the letters if you only look at them for a year and never try to write them, can you?

[Shooter]

Seven, it's great that you take the time to explain these things for everyone's benefit but you gotta realize that the person you're adressing is beyond hope in understanding what you're talking about. Very altruistic of you nevertheless. I've taken that attitude about posting long, drawn out explanations of my own in an effort to popularize the ideas of resistance training, and the 'learn as you go' approach to TCC.



the subtle mechanics involed in grappling are EXTREMELY complicated.

Yep. IME, and I'm sure in the experience of anyone who's trained IMAs and crossed hands with good grapplers, it's all too obvious how the same energy-management principles are being applied. ie, peng, sung, fa-jin, ting, etc.


Everyone who knows anything about good coaching methodology is in total agreement here. It aint mystical enough or it's just too simple to accept for a lot of people. Even that thinking is beginning to break down as more and more people put their learning to the test.

[Royal Dragon]

That's one of those areas where we agree to disagree. You would get much better progress out of him by showing him how to do it, then letting him get the experience of actually trying it, while simulataneously showing him what he did wrong.

Reply]
The problem with that, is his mistakes could Kill him. he needs a safer, more progressive way to develop the skill, so it will just happen under presure.

You say:

Congratulations, you've just said the funniest d@mn thing I've ever heard. grappling? simple? you HAVE to be joking. the subtle mechanics involed in grappling are EXTREMELY complicated. I odn't know of anything else where technique alignment that is only an inch off can totally screw your whole technique.

Then you say:
Sure we do. that doesn't take months though. Drill it for an hour, then roll and make a conscious effort to use it while rolling.

Reply]
If you can get the mechanics in an hour, it's simple. It DOES take considerably longer to get them in the internal arts. It's a whole new way to move, and it takes time to get it right. Or atleast close enogh to be quasi functional.

You can't write the letters if you only look at them for a year and never try to write them, can you?

And:

We're not talking about winning, we're merely talking about learning the technique efficiently and properly. IMO, it's more efficient to show him and then let him work it against resistance. sticking with the race car example, the guy who has actually been in a spin will be better equipped to handle it than the racer who has only read books on how to deal with a spin.


Ok, I will repete the Race Car example.

Basically, you learn how to control the car. Once you have the basics down well, you go out on ice or some other slippery surface and learn to deal with low speed spins, then up grade to water and go a bit faster, and finnally concrete. Either way, he STILLL has to have a master of the basics before he can even THINK about jumping into a race and running 180 MPH or more. Heck, they won't even let you race unless you can prove you can drive on an empty track. You have PLENTY of time to develop and hone basic skills (the "Mechanics" of driving) before you are ever put into a race. Once they have that, you get on the track, and learn how to actually win races, not before.


What I am saying, is there is a basic progression from the learning of basic skills to the poitn where they are spund enough to use, and the methods you are promoting.

Since the mechanics in Taiji Quan are not all that easy to learn, you need to spend some time developing them before you go off and do what you are promoting. Maybe you were born a black belt and never needed basic training, but most students don't have a clue as to how to punch and kcik right, let alone the levels of understanding and body awareness Taiji Quan demands.


At this point, the only thing I can say to convince you is "Go to Choi". See what one of the most respected internal artists in the nation has to say about this. When you come back, tell me I'm wrong.

Till then we are just going to have to agree that we dissagree.

[Royal Dragon]

Everyone who knows anything about good coaching methodology is in total agreement here

Reply]
I don't think so. Good coaching methodology is going to follow a good system of step by step progression, just like I advocate.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Reply]
The problem with that, is his mistakes could Kill him. he needs a safer, more progressive way to develop the skill, so it will just happen under presure.

Kill him? I'm not telling him to get into a streetfight and try them there. I'm telling him to apply it in sparring in class, and in the ring if he desires. that's NOT gonna kill him, and I can't think of a more progressive and efficient way than what I have stated.

If you can get the mechanics in an hour, it's simple. It DOES take considerably longer to get them in the internal arts. It's a whole new way to move, and it takes time to get it right. Or atleast close enogh to be quasi functional.

you're likely not going to have it nailed in an hour. Point is, you spend that hour drilling it a hundred times or so, then you try in in rolling, against resistance. That's when you loear to look for the openings for what you learned, what if feels like to apply it, etc. If you get it wrong, then it's back to the lab to figure out why. Grappling is also a whole new way to move. You can move at angles there and escape holds there that you can't do while standing. That's why we're always saying that chin na won't just magiccally translate to the ground.




Basically, you learn how to control the car. Once you have the basics down well, you go out on ice or some other slippery surface and learn to deal with low speed spins, then up grade to water and go a bit faster, and finnally concrete. Either way, he STILLL has to have a master of the basics before he can even THINK about jumping into a race and running 180 MPH or more.

you're still focusing on competition. Screw the race. he doesn't need to have that to practice. And actually doesn't have to have it to race. To win the race, but not to race. in the meantime, he is racing and gaining experience in actually applying his racing skills. When he has them refined, it's time to win races.



What I am saying, is there is a basic progression from the learning of basic skills to the poitn where they are spund enough to use, and the methods you are promoting.

Since the mechanics in Taiji Quan are not all that easy to learn, you need to spend some time developing them before you go off and do what you are promoting. Maybe you were born a black belt and never needed basic training, but most students don't have a clue as to how to punch and kcik right, let alone the levels of understanding and body awareness Taiji Quan demands.

*sigh* I'm not saying don't teach basics. I'm saying teach them basics and at the same time, have them hone them further by working it live. That is a nice, natural progression.


At this point, the only thing I can say to convince you is "Go to Choi". See what one of the most respected internal artists in the nation has to say about this. When you come back, tell me I'm wrong.

You know that I know who Choi is. And I'll make a deal with you. Go to the boxing gym and go to the bjj place. Next time I'm up, I'll go talk to Choi. Since I'm not one of his students, he may not tell me anything at all about his training methodlogies, but I can at least try. Since I know some of his students, that may get my foot in the door with him.

[Royal Dragon]

Kill him? I'm not telling him to get into a streetfight and try them there. I'm telling him to apply it in sparring in class, and in the ring if he desires. that's NOT gonna kill him, and I can't think of a more progressive and efficient way than what I have stated.

Reply]
It's a race car going 180 MPH +. Even on an empty track he could die if you just throw him out and let him have at it. When I was younger, it took me half the summer to get good enough to break the 120MPH barrier. It wasn't unitl the next year that I was able to drive past 160MPH with some sort of comfort. No way you can take a guy and just throw him on the track and expect him to handle driving 180+ MPH, race or not.

I didn't have a track, so I used to get up at 3:30 Am, and hit the expressway by 4:00Am when there was no traffic to practice. It took me almost 3 years before I could intentionally put my car into a spin at 90-100 MPH, let it ride out, and straiten the car and continue going like nothing happend.

Trust me, you can't just throw a guy out on the track and tell him to just learn as he goes. It's not possible, you will get him killed.

you're likely not going to have it nailed in an hour. Point is, you spend that hour drilling it a hundred times or so, then you try in in rolling, against resistance. That's when you loear to look for the openings for what you learned, what if feels like to apply it, etc. If you get it wrong, then it's back to the lab to figure out why. Grappling is also a whole new way to move. You can move at angles there and escape holds there that you can't do while standing. That's why we're always saying that chin na won't just magiccally translate to the ground

Reply]
If you are dong an external art, I agree. When I was teaching my shaolin class, I did just that. I would have them learn the basics, up to the first form, and as soon as they had it memorised, we would be doing technique practice. I generally taught the 18 basic techniques (There were actaully 25, but I only learned 18 of them, and some I pitched and replaced with new stuff I thought was more effective). External arts you can do this with, but "INTERANL" arts you can't because the body mechanics take a painstakingly long time to get functional, let alone perfected. if you don't have those mechanics, your not doing Taiji. You are doing an external art lossely based on techniques found in Taiji.


you're still focusing on competition. Screw the race. he doesn't need to have that to practice. And actually doesn't have to have it to race. To win the race, but not to race. in the meantime, he is racing and gaining experience in actually applying his racing skills. When he has them refined, it's time to win races.

Reply]
No, he's dying, and killing the other drivers because he does not have the skills to keep his car on the track. He needs to prove he can keep the car ON the track, and controll it at great speeds BEFORE any sanctioned racing body will let him on the track. In fact, there is no raceing team on the planet that will just let a guy off the street with nothing but regular street driving experiance behind the seat of a real raceing car, let alone let him take it out on the track with out intensve training and practice. If you can't handle the car, you can't drive it in practice, let alone race it. You must FIRST learn to controll the car. That is not an easy thing to do, especially when you are over 150 MPH. Most peple can't do it even, let alone hit speeds over 180 as commonly found in most races. Just like Taiji Quan, it takes time to build those skills. Most do it like I did, and hit the expressways at 4:00 Am for several YEARS before they get the ability to controll the car anywhere near the speeds they will see in even a lower level race.
You are right though, you don't "Have" to have the mechanics perfect, but you do have to have them functional to keep from slipping into the easier external methods when under fire. Those methods work too, and you can win with them. You just wouldn't be doing Taiji when you did it.

*sigh* I'm not saying don't teach basics. I'm saying teach them basics and at the same time, have them hone them further by working it live. That is a nice, natural progression.

I'm not saying don't do what you are saying either, I'm saying you need the structure and mechanics of Taiji Quan FIRST, because they are very difficult to learn, and if they are not relatively natural, the student will resort ot external mechanics because they are simpler and easier to do at the time. This means he is NOT practicing Taiji anymore, he is practing an external art. You can't learn what you don't do. Since he is not doing Taiji, and he is doing an external art that "Looks" like it in its place. He will become a good external fighter, but not a good Taiji fighter.


You know that I know who Choi is. And I'll make a deal with you. Go to the boxing gym and go to the bjj place. Next time I'm up, I'll go talk to Choi. Since I'm not one of his students, he may not tell me anything at all about his training methodlogies, but I can at least try. Since I know some of his students, that may get my foot in the door with him.

Reply]
Does UFC veteran Keith Hackney's Reality Combat qualify? I already have plans to at least check his club out when I am ready. My Girlfriend was a student of his when he was teaching at Saviano's White Tiger Kempo. That's where he was training during his UFC days.

Although, I am already in agreement that your method will work fine with an external art, infact I used to teach pretty much like that myself. I know it was only a kids class, but we used to dominate the tournaments. All my students never failed to be in the top 5, and most of them in the top 3.

I understand I don't have much credibilty because of the video research project I am currently persuing, and the fact that I was out there working with guys Way, Way Way before I ever should have been after such a catstrophic injury, so I reallly looked bad, but I DO know what I am talking about.

[Shooter]

You can't cite a single "internal" nuance, "mechanics", or principle that I can't give a common example of from any good fighting method, 'unrelated' sport, or everyday life for that matter.

What are the "structure" and "mechanics" you're referring to?

[Brad]

Basically, my Taijiquan training has gone like this: First I learned Qigong along with basic Taijiquan line drills, then routines, then some set tui shou patterns, then started some free style tui shou... that's about where I left off last time I was doing Taijiquan regularly :P Not going to comment on the racecar analogies because I never even learned to drive :D

[Royal Dragon]

The best way to explain this is to say the core body drives the limbs. It's not like an external art where the limb moves, and just braces off the core body, the core body itself moves FIRST, and the limbs follow it's direction. Power starts from the center, and radiates outward.

The basic body structure is wher the tailbone is held in a slightly tucked manor, the shoulders rounded forward, and the spine strait. First one must get this, then the mechanics, and THEN you can do what you guys are describing. Since many external arts use the same structure, someone who is alreay well trained in an external art, can progress faster because they only need to get the mechanics. It's still going to take some time though. It's not easy to learn to move in this manor, and issue power as well. It takes time and dedication, as well as focused concentration. You can't do it if your distracted by trying to fight. That is why it must be learned to a proficient level FIRST. That way, you can do it right with out thinking and are free to think about fighting.

Learning anything is a step by step progresive process. The first step is the foundation. In an external art, the foundation is not difficult to learn and become proficient at. The internals need your undevided attention because of the difficulty of the physical actions.

[Royal Dragon]

Brad,
YOU would be a good canidate for Shooter's method, as you already have a solid foundation. You would also be a more proficient Taiji fighter than his guys he just throws out to the wolves BECAUSE of that foundation. They don't spend any time focusing on the basics, he just makes them fight first with no foundation (According to his first post)

Good basics = High level of skill

Bad basics = Low level of skill.

[Shooter]

Addressing the separate issues of this thread in their proper context=good form

Using Brad and my training partners as pawns=bad form

Once again, you deliberately confuse the focus of Tai-Tzu Tao with that of Tai Chi Chuan. You are truly the moron everyone says you are.

Done with you...

[dezhen2001]

i havent read all of this thread but:

*sigh* I'm not saying don't teach basics. I'm saying teach them basics and at the same time, have them hone them further by working it live. That is a nice, natural progression.

Does "working it live" mean go out full power and speed full contact? Or does it just mean in an alive but still controlled manner?

sorry i am just a bit confused :)

Also, similarly - the guy can step in a racing car and drive it - why does he need to go at 180mph? Why cant he still drive it at 100?

dawood

[Royal Dragon]

Shooter,
You said you took guys with NO experaince ever, and and had them fighting in an hour. Basically, at best they have a VERY vague understanding of some concepts you went over and are being thrown to the wolves completely unprepared.

Even in boxing gym they won't do that. They teach some foundational skills first.

Now, your more than welcome to do what you want, but your method is best suited to someone with a bit more seasoning, with good fundementals and some tools to work with, not a raw beginner. Maybe someone with 3-6 months of training at the earliest.

Using Brad and my training partners as pawns=bad form

Reply]
and how is that I used them as pawns? Brad pointed out how he was trained, and it just happenes to fit my argument.

See Shooter, I don't have a problem with your method, I just don't think it's something a beginner who has at best an hour of life time experiance should be doing. It's more for intermediate to advanced students. I've done the whole "Throw e'm to the wolves" thing, and I have also waited long periods of time before free fighting students. What I have found, is students learn to fight fastest if free fighting is introduced somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd levels. This is pretty much true for anyone I have taugth from about age 14 on up to full adults.

In my system going 3 days a week for an hour it takes about 4-6 weeks to get through the first level, and another maybe 8-12 to get through the second. Baically, somewhere beteween 3-6 months they are ready to go from learning and drilling to introductary free fighting. Anything sooner, and they are just flailing thier arms at one another and makeing little progress in any direction because you have to keep stopping them, and going back to basics as ALL thier flaws are in not having any.

[Royal Dragon]

Shooter, one more thing

Once again, you deliberately confuse the focus of Tai-Tzu Tao with that of Tai Chi Chuan. You are truly the moron everyone says you are.

Actually, that confusion has been generated by you. Here are some quotes pulled out of various responses of yours from this thread.

"Black Jack, very cool. The organic nature of what you described is something I've been moving toward for a while now and is very similar to the way we break down the action in the TCC training. It'll be interesting to see where it leads with each player."

"In my regular Tai Chi boxing class, I have guys going full-contact from day-1. They learn TCC as they go
Tai Chi is their method when I put the power to them. The success they achieve via that route is all the proof they need."

"Then when the weaker player reaches a point of failure, I show them TCC's recovery method
TCC is self-taught. I don't expect you to know the meaning of that though."

"I've taken that attitude about posting long, drawn out explanations of my own in an effort to popularize the ideas of resistance training, and the 'learn as you go' approach to TCC."

Now, I know you also use your "Tai Tzu Tao" thing too, but you seem to use them interchangeably as if they are the same thing. Then you wonder why people get confused.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

Reply]
It's a race car going 180 MPH +. Even on an empty track he could die if you just throw him out and let him have at it. When I was younger, it took me half the summer to get good enough to break the 120MPH barrier. It wasn't unitl the next year that I was able to drive past 160MPH with some sort of comfort. No way you can take a guy and just throw him on the track and expect him to handle driving 180+ MPH, race or not.

I didn't have a track, so I used to get up at 3:30 Am, and hit the expressway by 4:00Am when there was no traffic to practice. It took me almost 3 years before I could intentionally put my car into a spin at 90-100 MPH, let it ride out, and straiten the car and continue going like nothing happend.

Trust me, you can't just throw a guy out on the track and tell him to just learn as he goes. It's not possible, you will get him killed.

The last time I drove to chi, I did 120 from here to nashville. Anyway, The turns on a track can be dangerous, and people with experience also get killed. However, when speaking of death, the racing analogy doesn't apply to MA training, which is why I didn't use it this time.


Reply]
Does UFC veteran Keith Hackney's Reality Combat qualify? I already have plans to at least check his club out when I am ready. My Girlfriend was a student of his when he was teaching at Saviano's White Tiger Kempo. That's where he was training during his UFC days.

That may work, at least for standup... I'm not sure what his grappling qualifications are.

I understand I don't have much credibilty because of the video research project I am currently persuing, and the fact that I was out there working with guys Way, Way Way before I ever should have been after such a catstrophic injury, so I reallly looked bad, but I DO know what I am talking about.

That's got nothing to do with it. My dispute isn't with your training or your injury, it's with teaching methods. And I'm not saying your way won't work, only that I think this way is more efficient.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dezhen2001


Does "working it live" mean go out full power and speed full contact? Or does it just mean in an alive but still controlled manner?

Alive and controlled. Enough resistance for you to have to give a conscious effort to make the technique work.
[/B]

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Shooter,
You said you took guys with NO experaince ever, and and had them fighting in an hour. Basically, at best they have a VERY vague understanding of some concepts you went over and are being thrown to the wolves completely unprepared.

And, at the same time, they are getting a taste of what it's like. They are of course experts by no means, only trying to apply what they learned. As time goes on, they improve, naturally. And since they have been applying the technique in question since the beginning, they will be more adept at doing so than the student who spent three months only working form.

Even in boxing gym they won't do that. They teach some foundational skills first.

Now, your more than welcome to do what you want, but your method is best suited to someone with a bit more seasoning, with good fundementals and some tools to work with, not a raw beginner. Maybe someone with 3-6 months of training at the earliest.

In boxing, you will begin sparring in about 4 weeks or so, IME.


See Shooter, I don't have a problem with your method, I just don't think it's something a beginner who has at best an hour of life time experiance should be doing. It's more for intermediate to advanced students. I've done the whole "Throw e'm to the wolves" thing, and I have also waited long periods of time before free fighting students. What I have found, is students learn to fight fastest if free fighting is introduced somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd levels. This is pretty much true for anyone I have taugth from about age 14 on up to full adults.

three to six months is intermediate?

[Royal Dragon]

That's got nothing to do with it. My dispute isn't with your training or your injury, it's with teaching methods. And I'm not saying your way won't work, only that I think this way is more efficient.

Reply]

Hmm,Ok, my argument is some sort of base should be taught first.

three to six months is intermediate?

Not really, more like an advanced beginner that I call a Novice for PC reasons. It's more like the end of the real beginner phase, and the beginning of the intermediate. They know too much to be pure beginners, but not really skilled enough to be intermediate. It's experianced enough to where some benifit can be gotten from free sparring because enough of a foundation has been built. So far as Taiji Quan, goes, it's just scratching the surface, and not nearly enough time in my opinion. But for the externals, they know all thier basics. Like stances, transistions between them, forward, backward/advance & retreate footwork, side stepping left and right, basic block and cover tactics as well as some offensive skills like basic kicks, punches, simple takedowns and some combinations based on those skills. They by no means have a mastery of them, but they do have a base and some tols to work with. Since the sophistcated body mechanics of the internal arts are not an issue here, they can start free sparring and still be performing within the confines of the arts principals.

[Royal Dragon]

In boxing, you will begin sparring in about 4 weeks or so, IME.

Reply]
4 weeks is a hell of alot longer than an hour, and that is EXTERNAL arts. Internal is going to need considerably longer because it takes quite a bit to get the body mechanics down right.

[SevenStar]

BUT, in boxing you will be slipping punches, countering, etc. sooner than that. you will be drilling combinations and slipping punches in build up to the sparring, which is exactly what we are talking about - training the technique then having the opportunity to work it.

Take a student. teach him a basic jab/cross/hook combo. Have him drill it, then have him drill it while you throw punches back at him for him to evade.

Take another student and only have him drill the combo.


put them in the ring.


see the results.

learn a skill. work it with resistance. refine it. work it more. refine it more.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
The best way to explain this is to say the core body drives the limbs. It's not like an external art where the limb moves, and just braces off the core body, the core body itself moves FIRST, and the limbs follow it's direction. Power starts from the center, and radiates outward.

Actually, that sounds like grappling.

[Royal Dragon]

Take a student. teach him a basic jab/cross/hook combo. Have him drill it, then have him drill it while you throw punches back at him for him to evade.

Reply]
Ok fine, if you want to do this for something simple, go ahead, I already know that works. You STILL gott'a teach'em sumti'n first.

Actually, that sounds like grappling.

Reply]
Ok, I have mostly seen grappeing on video, or sparring with one of my Sister's ex boyfriends. I didn't see anything even remotely like internal mechanics in any of it.

Personally, I have sound it is better to actually teach them some sort of base before free fighting.


Take a student. teach him a basic jab/cross/hook combo. Have him drill it, then have him drill it while you throw punches back at him for him to evade.

Take another student and only have him drill the combo.


put them in the ring.

Reply]
Speaking strictly externally here (say Long Fist). You could also do it my way, teach a third student a solid base, then move him into a good progressive free sparring format. Give all three students 6 months. Mine will beat both because he has the experiance of your student, but his basics will be developed to a much higher caliber, more like the second student. I have done this, and my students beat out others taught as you are sugjesting. The training hours were the same as well as the age group (14-17). In one instance, one of my Purple Belts ended up fighting a "Brown Belt" with several years more exeriance and beat him soundly. Why you ask? I'l tell you, the Brown belt had crappy basics. I had this same argument with his teacher on numerous occasions, and for all his theorising and acting like an expert, my students always beat his, even when his were of greater experiance and longer time training, and greater aggressiveness. (And then people ***** when I want to continue to teach :rolleyes: )

One other point He will also be better conditioned, becasue basic drills are more phyisically demanding than free sparring. It allows both conditioning AND basics to be developed at the same time and is thus more efficient. Also, since my student is not distracted by the added element of pressure cause by their free fighting during the early phase of training, he can put more focus into his development of his bascs, and thus achieve more in a faster amount of time due to his ability to concentrate on "Correct" practice. Remember, "Practice does not make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect". Prefect practice requires a more centralised focus, and minimal distractions. By free fighting so early, you are giving the newbie way to much to think about all at one time. Your spreading his focus too thin.

You might be able to do it with Boxing, because boxing does not have much in it anyway. Only a small numer of actions. 4 Weeks is more than enough time to prep them for it. Internal arts are infinitly more compicated. You need a more step by step method. External Chinese arts are somewhere in the middle.