Common Praying Mantis Forms?

[Brad]

Just curious if there are any forms that are common to all branches of northern praying mantis? And if I were to learn for a few years from a quality teacher in, let's say..., 7*mantis, how hard would it be to switch over to something like taiji mantis?

[mantis108]

The truth to the matter is that it is easy to imitate movements without substance; therefore, a Mantis form such as Bengbu can easily be absorbed by modern Wushu. So the moral is that being an athlete one would be able to pick up the forms (sequence wise) easily but the essence of the style will most likely be lacking. In other words, the expressions are hollow (devoid of style specific technical merits) and are of performing arts variaty. The only way IMHO to learn a style is to build from the foundation which is something non glamourous and might even be painful (literally).

During the 2000 Qingdao tournament, many Mantis stylists, especially of Meihwa lineages, chosed (or was it compulsary?) to perform Zhaiyao (1st section), which is pretty much common to styles such as Taiji, Meihwa, Taiji Meihwa, even 8 Steps. The more worldwide recognizable form, Bengbu, was largely abscent. There were hardly any Luanjie/Lanjie nor Bazhou as well. To me that's kind of a disappointment.

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

Mantis 108, Hello again.

You wrote,

During the 2000 Qingdao tournament, many Mantis stylists, especially of Meihwa lineages, chosed (or was it compulsary?) to perform Zhaiyao (1st section), which is pretty much common to styles such as Taiji, Meihwa, Taiji Meihwa, even 8 Steps.

You are right there, Zhaiyao is often given priority as 'the' form in Qingdao.Mainly because the Zhaiyao Yi Lu of all branches in Qingdao has become quite close and is therefore a good form to compare skills with. Elsewhere not so. You will find that in Weihai, Laiyang, Yantai or any other comps that Beng Bu is the most often boxed, though Zhaiyao also gets a lot of play. Besides that, Zhaiyao is considered the main form for developing Sanda in Mantis Boxing and is often taught quite early. The form is not 'compulsory' in this comp, anyone performing compulsary routines in this competition pretty much gets laughed at.

also,

The more worldwide recognizable form, Bengbu, was largely abscent. There were hardly any Luanjie/Lanjie nor Bazhou as well. To me that's kind of a disappointment.

There was Ba Zhou (but not a lot), it gets saved for more important things than competitions and the Meihua people dont like to use it there. There was plenty of Lanjie, especially in the senior mens division and the youngest kids, especially the students of Sun Delong. Beng Bu was also there, but mainly in the juniors. I think its just a Qingdao thing. If you saw that years Shandong championships in Weihai, it was Beng Bu after Beng Bu.
As for the Qingdao comps, you should look into the most senior divisions for all the hardcore stuff. Its the same with Qixing Tanglang in Qingdao, you will generally only get to see them with Tou Tao, thats their trademark and they will hardly ever compete with forms like Rou Ling or any other Zhaiyao. People are still reluctant to show the goods! Everyone knows Zhaiyao Yi Lu so its no problem. Apart from that, you still get lots of disguised or joined forms with important bits ommitted or changed because they are not for public display.
B.Tunks

[mantis108]

Thanks for the wonderful snap shot of the current state of forms. It really informative. I think you have help unveiled some of the mysteries and behind the scene thing in Mainland Tanglang community. BTW, I am quite curious of the formal curriculum of Mainland 7 Star which I can't seem to local anywhere on the web. I believe it would be very helpful to have it for the record. Since there are reasonable amount of information from the Meihwa lineages, it would also be great to have the 7 Star side available.

As for the secrecy, changing forms for performance and such to me is plain BS. Personally, it is the saddest and the worst conduct of a real martial artist. If you don't want information to go out, don't perform or even better hide in a cave. I know that's "traditional" thinking in keeping information which is precious. At the same time, this is the source of all this bickering of who gets what and who has the best stuff, etc. You addressed this bickering on the thread "talk" and I think you right on the mark there.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

Mantis,

You are right about the secrecy thing. Unfortunately its an ingrained part of the tradition of CMA, I suppose its up to our generation to change this.
I have to run off to play football right now, but I'll get back to you asap with a curriculum list of Seven Star in Shandong.
thanks,
B.T

[yu shan]

In Taiji Mantis, can someone explain the Fa-Jing energy compared to 7*Mantis? Heard it is differant. Thank you in advance.

[B.Tunks]

108,

This is a basic list of Qixing Tanglang forms in Shandong. You will notice its alot smaller than it became after Jing Wu Hui.
There are a couple of forms that are practiced by followers of Zhong Lianbao that are not practiced by other descendants of Lin Jingshan, likewise I have left out a few extras that although are part of the Qixing tradition, are not universal.

Si Lu Ben Da, Shiba Suo, Cha Chui, Xiao Fan Che, Xiao Huyan (mainly in Qingdao, added later), Cuo Gang (also Zuo Gang, Duo Gang but all the same form), Hei Hu Jiao Cha (also called Hei Hu Chui or Quan), Rou Ling (also called You Ling), Shuang Cha Hua (Dan Cha Hua, though practiced by two branches is absent from the core curriculum), Beng Bu, Lanjie, Meihua Lu, Liu Lu Zhaiyao, Bai Yuan Chu Dong, Tou Tao, Xian Guo (Tao).
These are the three original Bai Yuan forms however in Qingdao there is also; Pan Zhi, Hui Dong, Xiao Mu and Xian Shu.
The first 20 on this list (minus Xiao Huyan) are what you can call the core curriculum as passed down from Fan Xudong and his descendants.
Of course others may argue, but this is the median.
Hope this help shed some light on things.
B.T

P.S, Yu Shan, as for explaining the differences in fajing, I will let Mantis 108 tackle that one. I find Fajing very hard to explain on a keyboard.

[mantis108]

Thank you, my friend. Truelly appreciate your prompt and informative response. This really helps to put things into perspective. I have some thoughts about this list which I would like to share if you don't mind. :)

<<<Si Lu Ben Da, Shiba Suo, Cha Chui, Xiao Fan Che,>>>

I am not sure of the order of curriculum. If I am not mistaken, Si Lu Ben Da would be conventionally taught at a later stage? It seems to be a rather long form for a novice to handle. Are the ling side to these forms. Tainan Mantis showed me the ling form of Shiba Suo which I think is quite awesome. I understand Cha Chui is a very important form to 7 Stars.

<<<Xiao Huyan (mainly in Qingdao, added later), >>>

I heard that the Nanjing Guoshu institute has this one in their curriculum. It has also become one of the more recognizable forms of Changquan Tanglang (Long fist Mantis). I have yet to find out its importance in PM. What it has to offer intrigues me.

<<<Cuo Gang (also Zuo Gang, Duo Gang but all the same form), Hei Hu Jiao Cha (also called Hei Hu Chui or Quan), Rou Ling (also called You Ling), Shuang Cha Hua (Dan Cha Hua, though practiced by two branches is absent from the core curriculum),>>>

Hei Hu Jiao Cha is a rather interesting form. I have seen Sifu Lee Kam Wing's book and I think there is also another book about this form available. I rather enjoy the different pieces with the mantis hooks and Chin Na. I have heard Rou Ling contain some important material on the style. I recognize Shuang and Dan Cha Hua but I am not familiar with their significance to the system.

<<<Beng Bu, Lanjie, Meihua Lu, Liu Lu Zhaiyao, Bai Yuan Chu Dong, Tou Tao, Xian Guo (Tao).>>>

These are reminiscent of the Meihwa lineages' lists. I didn't know 7 Stars practice 6 roads of Zhaiyao altogether. That's interesting. I understand that the version of Lanjie may be different from the Meihwa lineages at least that's the case with HK 7 Stars. Would that be the case in your view? BTW, I don't seem to see Bazhou
among them.

<<<Bai Yuan Chu Dong, Tou Tao, Xian Guo (Tao).
These are the three original Bai Yuan forms however in Qingdao there is also; Pan Zhi, Hui Dong, Xiao Mu and Xian Shu.
The first 20 on this list (minus Xiao Huyan) are what you can call the core curriculum as passed down from Fan Xudong and his descendants.
Of course others may argue, but this is the median.
Hope this help shed some light on things.>>>

Thank you for the informative list. I find it quite helpful. BTW where would 2 mens forms such as

Pai An, Tao Hwa San, Tao Jie, etc... come in or are there such forms exist in the Mainland 7 Stars curriculum?

Warm regards

Mantis108

[mantis108]

Hi Yu Shan,

I think the Fajing merits its own thread. May it would get more people sharing their thoughts if there is a seperate thread on it. I also think that Tainan and Ponglai have been doing a good job on articulating the different types of Fajing in Mantis. I am sure they would give better insight than I. Brendan, I would love to hear your observations as well if you don't mind. :)

In general, I believe the basic requirements for fajing are the same. My observation of 7 Stars (based on HK version) is that it tends to favor sideway punching (frequently shift from forward stance to horse stance or vice versa) as in Black Tiger Steal Heart or Bu Chui in 7 star stance. These moves tend to make use of hip rotation (openning and closing ranging from 90 to 180 degrees on a horizontal plane) and provide a long reach for the punch. In a sense, I would consider these a long range type of power generation. It is pretty clear of the role of the hip has to play in these situations. TJPM on the other hand would make use of twisting stance and minor stance combinations more often. The movement of the hips becomes more subtle and the core strength comes into play. Having said that it doesn't mean that 7 stars doesn't make use of core strength. It is just apply differently. This would create a torquing type of power that is hard to fend off in close quartered situation. Unless the opponent detected it and disengage early enough; otherwise, it's hard to get out the TJPM's graspe once contact is made. The 2 styles have one thing in common though. That is once the action begins it is like the trigger being pulled and all the related parts response in unision and you will have a bang. ;) It is very important to remember that both styles contain similar methods of Fajing in their training. It is of personal preference to make use of them. There is no superiority implied in any form, shape or way.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[B.Tunks]

Mantis,

I have some thoughts about this list which I would like to share if you don't mind. :)

of course not!

<<<Si Lu Ben Da, Shiba Suo, Cha Chui, Xiao Fan Che,>>>

I am not sure of the order of curriculum. If I am not mistaken, Si Lu Ben Da would be conventionally taught at a later stage?

True, it is. This list is not in exact order, forms such as Cuo Gang are taught before si Lu Benda. Still it is a basic Qixing form, often dispensed with entirely.

It seems to be a rather long form for a novice to handle. Are the ling side to these forms. Tainan Mantis showed me the ling form of Shiba Suo which I think is quite awesome.

The concept of Ling Taolu is expressed after Luo Guangyu (in the opinion of practitioners on the manland. Every opposing technique is taught as the forms are taught, though not necessarily linked together in the manner of Ling such as, Ling Beng Bu. Sections or sequentially connected techniques are taught in this fashion and often trained in partnered drills, but not as 'formal' part of the curriculum.
The subject of Ling as a training method is a big one and warrants a lot of typing. To briefly summarise, it is given far less importance in China. Especially due to the unrealistic following on or linking of techniques. Anyway, thats a bit off topic...

I understand Cha Chui is a very important form to 7 Stars.

It is, especially in Qingdao. It is generally the first form taught (or Xiao Huyan for kids). Of course this varies from coach to coach.
Beng Bu is never taught first in Qixing in china.

<<Xiao Huyan (mainly in Qingdao, added later), >>>

I heard that the Nanjing Guoshu institute has this one in their curriculum. It has also become one of the more recognizable forms of Changquan Tanglang (Long fist Mantis). I have yet to find out its importance in PM. What it has to offer intrigues me.

The reason it is featured thus in Chang Quan Tanglang is because it came via the Qingdao Guoshu Academy. Its importance to Qixing is in training jiben gong, particularly Bu Fa, Shen Fa and Shou Fa. It is a very basic form that trains explosive power in the legs (due to all of the crouching and jumping) and flexibility and extension. This form can be dispensed with for those with good Jiben Gong. I teach it to kids or particularly athletic young adults, it doesnt go good for heavy people and poor jumpers (but can help build those skills if there is potential). I also teach it to preserve it, knowing it is largely ignored in Yantai Qixing (but does exist).


Hei Hu Jiao Cha is a rather interesting form. I have seen Sifu Lee Kam Wing's book and I think there is also another book about this form available. I rather enjoy the different pieces with the mantis hooks and Chin Na.

The mainland versions are very different. many forms share only their names and nothing more.

I have heard Rou Ling contain some important material on the style.

It contains the soft and flexible methods of the family. Excellent Shou Fa and many stepping and evasion methods.

I recognize Shuang and Dan Cha Hua but I am not familiar with their significance to the system.

As with the other forms, they introduce specific techniques not found elsewhere, in particular a method of stepping and striking.

<<<Beng Bu, Lanjie, Meihua Lu, Liu Lu Zhaiyao, Bai Yuan Chu Dong, Tou Tao, Xian Guo (Tao).>>>

These are reminiscent of the Meihwa lineages' lists.

True, except for the Bai Yuan forms, though even they have been adopted in recent years (by some branches).

I didn't know 7 Stars practice 6 roads of Zhaiyao altogether.

Yes, but although they certainly connect, they are not actually meant to be boxed in continuous series. Though this is a good party trick (and extremely difficult)!

That's interesting. I understand that the version of Lanjie may be different from the Meihwa lineages at least that's the case with HK 7 Stars.

Yes it is. There are so many versions of Lanjie around though, its hard to make a good comparison sometimes. Ours is quite close to what you might call a 'standard' Lanjie (if thats possible)? Once again, very different to the H.K version, more like what you have seen from meihua, both in China and Taiwan.

Would that be the case in your view? BTW, I don't seem to see Bazhou
among them.

Although this is an orignal (as original as we know), Tanglang form, it has been lost or abandoned by most of Qixing. Though some include it in their curriculum, it is one of the classic Meihua forms still extant.


Thank you for the informative list. I find it quite helpful. BTW where would 2 mens forms such as

Pai An, Tao Hwa San, Tao Jie, etc... come in or are there such forms exist in the Mainland 7 Stars curriculum?

Yes they are also in the curriculum, as are weapons and two man weapons sets.
Have to go train,

B.T

[mantis108]

Thank you once again for the reply. It's really great to explore the Mainland 7 Stars' curriculum with you. I really appreciate your sharing. Here's some more thoughts:

<<<True, it is. This list is not in exact order, forms such as Cuo Gang are taught before si Lu Benda. Still it is a basic Qixing form, often dispensed with entirely.>>>

I just found out that GM Han HsingTang (Changquan) who is also a Chin Na expert has Si Lu Benda (modified) in his curriculum. It is also very interesting that his teachings, according to his students, seems remarkably similar to WHF's understanding of PM teaching.

<<<The concept of Ling Taolu is expressed after Luo Guangyu (in the opinion of practitioners on the manland. Every opposing technique is taught as the forms are taught, though not necessarily linked together in the manner of Ling such as, Ling Beng Bu. Sections or sequentially connected techniques are taught in this fashion and often trained in partnered drills, but not as 'formal' part of the curriculum.
The subject of Ling as a training method is a big one and warrants a lot of typing. To briefly summarise, it is given far less importance in China. Especially due to the unrealistic following on or linking of techniques. Anyway, thats a bit off topic...>>>

Yeah, I agreed that this merits its own thread. :)

<<I understand Cha Chui ...
It is, especially in Qingdao. It is generally the first form taught (or Xiao Huyan for kids). Of course this varies from coach to coach.
Beng Bu is never taught first in Qixing in china.>>>

I hear you. Thanks for the info.

<<Xiao Huyan . ...
The reason it is featured thus in Chang Quan Tanglang is because it came via the Qingdao Guoshu Academy. Its importance to Qixing is in training jiben gong, particularly Bu Fa, Shen Fa and Shou Fa. It is a very basic form that trains explosive power in the legs (due to all of the crouching and jumping) and flexibility and extension. This form can be dispensed with for those with good Jiben Gong. I teach it to kids or particularly athletic young adults, it doesnt go good for heavy people and poor jumpers (but can help build those skills if there is potential). I also teach it to preserve it, knowing it is largely ignored in Yantai Qixing (but does exist).>>>

Thanks again for the insight. It's wonderful that you kept it in your curriculum.

<<<Hei Hu Jiao Cha is a rather interesting form. ...
The mainland versions are very different. many forms share only their names and nothing more.>>>

Actually, I am kind of puzzled by the name of the form. In a way, it would seem that the HK version is about getting or breaking out of trapping or grabbing situation (Jiao Cha).

<<<I have heard Rou Ling contain ...
It contains the soft and flexible methods of the family. Excellent Shou Fa and many stepping and evasion methods.
I recognize Shuang and Dan Cha Hua but I am not familiar with their significance to the system.

As with the other forms, they introduce specific techniques not found elsewhere, in particular a method of stepping and striking.>>>

Thank you for the info. :)

<<<Beng Bu, Lanjie, Meihua Lu, Liu Lu Zhaiyao, Bai Yuan Chu Dong, Tou Tao, Xian Guo (Tao).
These are reminiscent of the Meihwa lineages' lists.
True, except for the Bai Yuan forms, though even they have been adopted in recent years (by some branches).>>>

I hear you.

<<<I didn't know 7 Stars practice 6 roads of Zhaiyao altogether.

Yes, but although they certainly connect, they are not actually meant to be boxed in continuous series. Though this is a good party trick (and extremely difficult)!>>>

Indeed.

<<<That's interesting. I understand that the version of Lanjie may be different from the Meihwa lineages at least that's the case with HK 7 Stars.

Yes it is. There are so many versions of Lanjie around though, its hard to make a good comparison sometimes. Ours is quite close to what you might call a 'standard' Lanjie (if thats possible)? Once again, very different to the H.K version, more like what you have seen from meihua, both in China and Taiwan.>>>

Well, I believe this certainly merits it own thread. In general, I have seen a few different versions including the HK 7* one, which seems it contains mainly the first 2 roads of the Luanjie. Other versions, mainly of Meihwa lineages, are identifiably the same form.

<<<Bazhou ...
Although this is an orignal (as original as we know), Tanglang form, it has been lost or abandoned by most of Qixing. Though some include it in their curriculum, it is one of the classic Meihua forms still extant.>>>

I see.

<<<Thank you for the informative list. I find it quite helpful. BTW where would 2 mens forms such as

Pai An, Tao Hwa San, Tao Jie, etc... come in or are there such forms exist in the Mainland 7 Stars curriculum?

Yes they are also in the curriculum, as are weapons and two man weapons sets.
Have to go train,>>>

Well, I am very interested in 2 men hand forms. Perhaps we can have a discussion about them sometime. Thanks for all the reply you have been very helpful.

Warm regards

Mantis108