Disturbing Special on Discovery

[Merryprankster]

I was recently watching a Discovery Channel special on the Arab World. A theme illuminated time and time again is how humiliated the Arab world feels--how marginalized they believe they have become. I find this disturbing. One young UAE man said that the U.S. behaves as though western lives are more important than Middle Eastern lives and that the U.S. treats Middle Easterners like "sheep for the slaughter." While I personally believe this is about as accurate as "Muslims are terrorists," I digress....

I found it disturbing for two reasons:

1. Humiliation is not something that outside forces can fix. The U.S. could behave in any way at all and a humiliated person would find a hidden subversive motive. Feeling humiliated is something that can only be changed from the inside out.

2. There is a strong fatalistic component to Islam as it is practiced in much of the Middle East. This is a fundamental psychological barrier to self-directed personal change: A fatalist does not look to themselves to alter their situation, and finds outside events beyond their control--their ability to affect the world around them is limited. If change happens, it happens through the work of an outside force.

These two things combined, I think, will make any perception adjustment generations in coming, if at all.

[KC Elbows]

I don't think so. I mean, your assessments are very good, but I think the middle east HAS come a long way in a hundred years, and WILL come further in much shorter order. And really, we do have a huge influence over them. Eventually, our influence will wane, and their own influence will probably grow, especially as the culture seems to be really desparate to move out of these times into more modern times. I mean, if Iran can come from being very fundamentalist driven to a more moderate position(relatively speaking), I don't think all is hopeless. I really believe(and perhaps I'm naive) that modernization builds a taste for comfort and security in even the most extreme cultures. Anyway, just babbling.

Your pessimism cannot touch me, I am optimist man. I'm doing great, thanks for asking.:D

[Black Jack]

What irks me is that no one in the pc media besides a few radio based programs even trys to mention your number 2 point.

A perfect example is that "black muslim" U.S. Marine who fragged his fellow officers in a grenade attack and shot one in the back. It was in the general media for all of two seconds then painted over in the fear of being racist.

Oh forbid somebody speaks the truth about a subject.

[Vapour]

for number 2, do google search with the word "Wahhabi".

[dnc101]

"There is a strong fatalistic component to Islam as it is practiced in much of the Middle East. This is a fundamental psychological barrier to self-directed personal change: A fatalist does not look to themselves to alter their situation, and finds outside events beyond their control--their ability to affect the world around them is limited."

Merry P, that is an excellent point! It clarifies a few things I've been wondering about. Particulartly why a seeming majority of people in Muslim dominated countries seem so he11 bent on self destruction. (seemingly- I don't know this is the majority, but they do get all the attention). I'm guesing that the fatalism stems from centuries of extreme religios control of every aspect of their lives.

Thanks! (We need a light bulb smiley here)

[Merryprankster]

KC Elbows--

I share your eventual optimism about the outcome. I think we may differ on the time frame, but unrestriced information flow creates democracy. I'm quite the optimist about humans. You'll find a argue vehemently against the stupid argument that we're going to hell in a handbasket.

I believe it hinges on three key factors:

1. Continued exposure to unfiltered information--look what the web has done to China :D

2. Continued globalization.

3. Continued western education for those who go abroad.

Unfortunately I see this may create some hard times--those who go abroad for education come back and become the ruling elite, for the most part. These folks understand world politics and make treaties, cease-fires, international policies based on that understanding. Those who do not will wonder why their governments have such policies and treaties in place.

Are Middle Eastern governments sowing the seeds of revolution in their own countries? It's well known the public educational system in these nations provides a very narrow worldview that paints the West and Israel in a conspiracy to damage the Muslim world. Will the "normal," population allow their rulers to continue talking out of both sides of their mouths?

We see it already--the everyday population of many of our "friends," in the Middle East really don't like us much. Will those populations continue to allow their governments to take more moderate views?

[PaulH]

MP,

I suspect the media is trying to ignore the real causes and choose to focus on this symptom of Arab humiliation in the Middle East topic instead. Listen to what their clerics are saying today. There has been more christians murdered by these fanatical sects of Islam bent on destruction of the West in the 20th century than all other centuries combined! Look at Sudan, Indonesia, etc. Until muslims around the world recognize that killing is not the answer and need to stand up to clamp down on their own fanatics, I fear that the only alternative we have is to actively defend ourselves. Another 911 is not an option.

[Merryprankster]

PaulH,

What are the real causes?

[PaulH]

MP,

Do you remember Salaman Rushdie? There is your hint!

[Merryprankster]

No, no, no. You sound too much like a left wing conspiracy theorist. Only for the other side :D

Articulate your stand and offer your reasoning. I'm not knocking it--just genuinely curious.

[rogue]

Here's a book about the subject that I just finished. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060516054/qid=1048869101/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-3174222-8437602?v=glance&s=books)

Bernard Lewis is the West's greatest historian and interpreter of the Near East. Books such as The Middle East and The Arabs in History are required reading for anybody who hopes to understand the region and its people. Now Lewis offers What Went Wrong?, a concise and timely survey of how Islamic civilization fell from worldwide leadership in almost every frontier of human knowledge five or six centuries ago to a "poor, weak, and ignorant" backwater that is today dominated by "shabby tyrannies ... modern only in their apparatus of repression and terror." He offers no easy answers, but does provide an engaging chronicle of the Arab encounter with Europe in all its military, economic, and cultural dimensions. The most dramatic reversal, he says, may have occurred in the sciences: "Those who had been disciples now became teachers; those who had been masters became pupils, often reluctant and resentful pupils." Today's Arab governments have blamed their plight on any number of external culprits, from Western imperialism to the Jews. Lewis believes they must instead commit to putting their own houses in order: "If the peoples of Middle East continue on their present path, the suicide bomber may become a metaphor for the whole region, and there will be no escape from a downward spiral of hate and spite, rage and self-pity, [and] poverty and oppression." Anybody who wants to understand the historical backdrop to September 11 would do well to look for it on these pages. --John Miller --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

[PaulH]

MP,

The Koran's teachings on what to do with the infidels. Only this century it has become the blood thirsty sword of Islam in the hand of OSB and those dictators who saw it useful to control their Muslim population.

[Merryprankster]

Rogue,

Interesting. I've never seen that book before. It sounds like it's in-line with my thinking on this issue. I personally don't consider it to be a particularly revolutionary thought, but I'm sure he treats the idea with a bit more rigor than I have.

I think the basic issue, as to why this "slipslide" in civilization has occurred can be traced to the fundamental nature of the religions themselves:

Christianity emphasizes a personal relationship with God and Jesus.

Judaism emphasizes following Mosaic law.

Islam emphasizes total submission to Allah's will.

There are some very real distinctions. The personal relationship Christians have with God allows them to keep politics and religion seperate. Heck, there's even biblical precedent: "render unto Caesar's that which is Caesar's. Render unto me, that which is mine." It also means that "God helps those who help themselves." There isn't really any outside restrictions on your goals. Add to that the idea that God created man with free will, to choose a path of his own, and you have a religion with an emphasis on the person.

Judaism's emphasis on Mosaic law also kept them apart from politics. As long as you followed the religious law, you could live anywhere, under any political system and still maintain your identity as a Jew and as a Jewish community. Israel might be a "Jewish state," but it's largely a secular nation.

Islam is different. Politics and religion are mixed. The Koran not only outlines the fatalistic relationship the individual has with Allah, it also outlines the relationship between religion and the state. It's a lot harder to interpret the Koran seperately from society and the state, for this reason. The Koran is not just a guide for living, it's a guide for societal structure. If you accept the premise that the Holy Koran is the direct revelation of Allah's will and guidance, then that leaves you very little wiggle room in interpretations. I mean, if Allah says the testimony of a woman in a court is worth only half that of a man's (and it does), who are you to argue?

Paul H,
Like most religious documents, the Koran is self-contradictory in many places. Some of the Surahs point out that Christians and Jews are people of the book as well, and should be allowed to live freely in Muslim areas.

[PaulH]

MP,

We know that, but the Arab people...
"When there is so much hatred and destruction, a little forgetfulness may be in order."

[Merryprankster]

Paul, what about the Arab people? More precisely WHY, "what" about the Arab people?

[PaulH]

Frankly I don't see much of tolerance beside more bloodshed and violence among the Arabs against non-Arabs now. Actions speak louder than words. When is enough enough?

[Merryprankster]

A better question is how does it stop?

[GreyMystik]

it is helpful to keep in mind that not everyone shares the views of so-called "islamic militants", just as not everyone shares the views of some of the more militant extremists in THIS country. it is also important to remember that just because some folks who happen to be arabic may be very vocal about their advocating violence or whatnot, this does not mean that "arabs are violent". not saying anyone here is stupid or can't see the difference, just pointing out that it is helpful to remind yourself not to overgeneralize. it takes all kinds, and there are extremists in every culture.

[Merryprankster]

I don't think anybody has overgeneralized. Yet.

[PaulH]

Just in case someone misunderstand me, I am against the fanatical muslims who justify killing in the name of Islam. I have no problem with other peaceful Arabs as some of my Wing Chun classmates also muslim and we have always been friends.

[Merryprankster]

I'm afraid I completely misunderstand you. What's your point? That some Muslims are whackjobs? I think that's obvious. Of course, it cuts both ways. Some Christians are whackjobs. I really don't know either what you're getting at or what solution you are proposing.

[PaulH]

I'm not proposing any solutions as you point out in your 1st post that each individual has to work out their problems from inside out in good conscience to God and men. When I see so many faces of hatred in the Middle East, I wonder if there is such a thing as peace on earth. As for me, I come in peace. Live and let live.

[ZIM]

We might be witnessing a version of the Protestant Reformation within the Muslim world, primarily due to influences just as MP says. History will tell. article, good site, too. (http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/1999/issue3/jv3n3a8.html)

edit: I should clarify my statement.
During the Reformation there were many movements, both liberal/radical and arch-conservative, and that was due, in part, to the printing press, vulgate versions of the bible, etc. We're seeing, I feel, both streams, but our news tends to focus on the more dangerous/inimical.

[Budokan]

The book by Lewis is a great read. I finished it in one night. It's an eye opener about the failure of a fundamentalist religion that gets hold of the reins of government and suppresses personal freedoms in the name of God. It's a good object lesson for the looming danger presented by the Fundamentalist Bible Thumpers in our own country, too.

Oh, by the way. Who here is naive and Pollyanish enough to think there will be peace in the Middle East in our lifetime? Show of hands.

Yep. That's what I thought.;)

[dezhen2001]

jeez, thanks for your thoughts guys - and u wonder why so many muslims hate you all.

i was gonna respond to some points mentioned earlier in the thread but now i dont know if i should bother considering you already have made up your mind.

edit: actually i will but it will take a while.

dawood

[dezhen2001]

hey rogue another analysis of your book :)

In the fields of Islamic and Middle Eastern history, few people are as prominent and prolific as Lewis, emeritus professor at Princeton. This time around, however, he has written a book with an inconsistent argument and an erratic narrative consisting of recycled themes from his earlier books, a work that sheds no new light on Middle Eastern history or on the events of September 11. His general argument is that Islamic civilization, once flourishing and tolerant, has in modern times become stagnant. This, he contends, has led to considerable soul-searching among Muslims, who ask themselves, "What went wrong?" But while sometimes the author states that there is a critical inquiry into the source of economic weakness in Muslim civilizations, other times he says that, instead of looking into the mirror, Muslims have blamed their problems on Europeans or Jews and thus fed their sense of victimhood. In medieval times, Lewis notes, Muslim civilization transmitted scientific ideas into Europe. But after offering intriguing examples of Muslim physicians and astronomers on the cutting edge in the 13th to 15th centuries, this chapter abruptly ends by stating that in modern times the roles have reversed, leaving the reader baffled over what between the 15th and the 20th centuries may have contributed to this reversal. Thus, the book raises more questions than it answers. Furthermore, Lewis discounts the effects of various decisions made by European and American colonial powers that negatively impacted the development of a democratic political community and a viable economy in the Middle East. Lewis's earlier books, such as The Muslim Discovery of Europe and The Middle East and the West, are much more useful for anyone seeking to understand the historical dynamic between these two parts of the world. First serial to Atlantic Monthly.

dawood

[dezhen2001]

First of all MP I agree on point one. Theres an interesting book called “discover islam” by Akbar Ahmed and it covers some good historical things, especially the effect colonization had on SE asia and also the effect the sudden riches in the middle east had on the people there. It also touches on the history of why wahabbism came about and its relationship to the Saud family. I think colonization caused a lot of problems.

As far as the rest:

There is a strong fatalistic component to Islam as it is practiced in much of the Middle East. This is a fundamental psychological barrier to self-directed personal change

agreed. But you have to understand the difference between “pre-destination” and free choice. Islam says God knows all, and that whatever God wills will happen - actually so does Judaism and Christianity or there would not be one omnipotent, all-knowledgeable God. Islam also says that we are responsible for our own choices in this lifetime and those deeds good and bad are what we will be judged on on Judgement Day.

But I agree that there is a lot of “fatalists”. That does severely affect what can happen – even it stumps thinking and growth.

The more dangerous thing though in my opinion is not being able to question something. In Islam we talk about something called “bidah” which means an innovation or new thing. THIS is the one thing people are afraid of doing. Hence why they follow what has gone before and before without questioning. You wouldn’t believe the number of insults I have gotten from “muslims” because I am asking questions and seek to understand – as well as question established reasoning on things. Its funny that Quran mentions numerous times that we shouldn’t do what our forefathers have done without knowledge and seek to understand things. Yet how many do that? :)

There is a “hadith” which basically says “go with the majority” and is used a lot. I once said “but what if the majority are wrong?” and got told I was wrong. Even the Quran explicitly says Muhammed on Judgement Day will say “oh my people! – why have you deserted this simple Quran”, which kinda tells you it will be a majority not just a few.

A perfect example is that "black muslim" U.S. Marine who fragged his fellow officers in a grenade attack and shot one in the back.

That is a tragedy and something very sick indeed :(

I'm guesing that the fatalism stems from centuries of extreme religios control of every aspect of their lives.

Its really a shame because for the first centuries of islam they were really good in mathematics and other things, and really had a good culture. But as far as I can tell as islam spread very quickly and corruption poured in as leaders began to get rich beyond their wildest dreams. The turning point seemed to be around the middle ages and im trying to find out what it was that caused this.

We see it already--the everyday population of many of our "friends," in the Middle East really don't like us much.

I think you would be surprised how many people like the “west”, they just don’t like some of the policies and other things that have happened. It gets confusing when people don’t separate the “people” from the “government” and “policies”.

Until muslims around the world recognize that killing is not the answer and need to stand up to clamp down on their own fanatics

Most actually do, its just the loud ones who don’t.

The Koran's teachings on what to do with the infidels. Only this century it has become the blood thirsty sword of Islam in the hand of OSB and those dictators who saw it useful to control their Muslim population.

Have you actually read the Quran? Or just those junks put on anti-islamic sites or shown by CNN etc? Do I have to post another long one explaining what Quran actually says about “infidels”? Find a translation of Quran online and look at the start of chapter 9 “Al-Taubah”. There it is talking about war against the jewish and Christian and pagan tribes around mecca. Read what EVERY line says, not just the odd ones. It covers both sides of the spectrum.

Heck, there's even biblical precedent: "render unto Caesar's that which is Caesar's. Render unto me, that which is mine."

There are also verses in Quran which say “There is no compulsion in religion – the truth will stand out form falsehood” and “I believe what I like and you believe what you like”. Same thing.

Add to that the idea that God created man with free will, to choose a path of his own, and you have a religion with an emphasis on the person.

islam says the exact same thing – except we don’t have the idea of original sin and can only get salvation thru Jesus Christ. That’s where the free choice comes in. Again, when we pray, we pray directly to God – 5 times a day and more if we like. How can that be impersonal?

If you accept the premise that the Holy Koran is the direct revelation of Allah's will and guidance, then that leaves you very little wiggle room in interpretations.

It seems to be working pretty ok for all the extremists – they seem to be interpreting it VERY different from others do. Also if a religion is “personal” then its up to EVERYONE to seek to understand – hence so many differences in ALL religions.

Judaism's emphasis on Mosaic law also kept them apart from politics. As long as you followed the religious law, you could live anywhere, under any political system and still maintain your identity as a Jew and as a Jewish community.

What do we do? Oh yeah – follow Gods Law in Quran. Its just when people mix politics and power struggles and greed in that it gets screwed up.

I mean, if Allah says the testimony of a woman in a court is worth only half that of a man's (and it does), who are you to argue.

completely taken out of context! The verse specifically talks about the testimony of 2 women in MONEY matters ONLY. That specifically relates to when the woman was more of a “housewife” and didn’t deal with money issues, and the fact that if they were umarried they could be “bribed” by the man. Nowadays a woman can control and have her own business (sometimes even back then in Arabia – Muhammeds first wife was the owner of a merchant business and HE was HER employee and servant).

Some of the Surahs point out that Christians and Jews are people of the book as well, and should be allowed to live freely in Muslim areas.

There is a difference between Christians/Jews and those Christian and Jewish tribes who first sided with the Islamic community then broke the treaties and fought against them. 2 completely different cases.

Frankly I don't see much of tolerance beside more bloodshed and violence among the Arabs against non-Arabs now.

Did you know that in Iraq up until around the time of the Gulf war that the standard of living was rather high and they had a good road system, education system and other things? Saddam also gave A LOT of money to Christian and Jewish communities as well as being such a horrible dictator.

don't think anybody has overgeneralized. Yet.

and you wonder why the world is in such a state mate.

It's an eye opener about the failure of a fundamentalist religion that gets hold of the reins of government and suppresses personal freedoms in the name of God.

Show me anywhere in Quran that suppresses and takes away personal freedoms?

ZIM: good article thanks for the link :) I agree with much of what it says. Islam is 650 years behind Christianity.

This article is especially interesting: http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/1999/issue3/jv3n3a2.html

dawood

[dezhen2001]

this article is also good about saudi history and wahabbism:

http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/1997/issue2/jv1n2a8.html

dawood

[PaulH]

Dawood,

I would like to believe everythings you said for I rather have friends than enemies. But what I have heard of the horrors and atrocities committed against Christians by Muslims in Asia who had no quarrels with their muslim neighbors so far compel me to examine of the Islam religion in a more negative light. Why is it that just because you are a christian girl that you deserve to be raped repeatedly by muslim men who demand you to recant your faith by force? What crimes has innocent church goers done to their muslim friends to deserve bombings and shootings so often? Where were the Muslim protests and voices of outrage for such heinous deeds? Who will speak for these deaths? I'm very sorry to say that I see no alternative but to take up defensive measures to protect my brethens and all god-given lives against such atrocities by OSB and his evil followers. We are not talking about Israel or the USA here, again I ask you what did these asian christians done to deserve such outrageous inhuman fates from their muslim neighbors? Deeds speak louder than words.

Regards,

[dezhen2001]

yes deeds do - but when you look in Quran and see NO basis for what you just said then its not the RELIGION that is at fault.

Quran CLEARLY says to "guard your chastity" until marriage - in NO uncertian terms... and that those guilty of fornication, adultery and rape can get up to 100 lashes as punishment.

If you like i can post the relevant verses?

As for why those people do it - i have no idea - im not an animal. I also dont know what politically and generally is happening elsewhere in the world as i am in the UK so how can i say anything?

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

PaulH.

Look closely at those fights between Muslims and Christians.
The same things and atrocities happen from BOTH sides.

Or how about the Buddhist monks that beat & fight fellow monks from other sects.

Now ALL those religions preach compassion and peaceful ways, guess Human nature gets in the way.

Cheers.

[shaolin kungfu]

Paul, it's people like you that get us into this religous pidly shlt in the first place. Don't be so quick to go to war and defend your "brothers". It's been my experience that many of your fellow church goers are much more militant than any muslim I know.

It's also interesting that you think christians havn't done anything to muslims. Remember the crusades?

[PaulH]

I know you are the good guy. My quarrel is with those who kill hiding behind their false Islam religion.

Regards,

[dnc101]

Hey, dawood! Sometimes I bet you feel like Custer amongst all us Indians!

"I'm guesing that the fatalism stems from centuries of extreme religios control of every aspect of their lives."

Its really a shame because for the first centuries of islam they were really good in mathematics and other things, and really had a good culture. But as far as I can tell as islam spread very quickly and corruption poured in as leaders began to get rich beyond their wildest dreams. The turning point seemed to be around the middle ages and im trying to find out what it was that caused this.

The quote was mine. It wasn't a slam against the Muslim faith in total. But there is a fanatical element which seems to have dominion in this faith, possibly world wide but certainly in the Mid-east. And they have total control of peoples lives where they are diminant. Centuries of this kind of oppression must take their toll on a people.

I agree that they were once great. And I disagree with those who say the Muslim world doesn't yearn for freedom. I think they do. And in the case of Iraq, and probably many other countries in that part of the world, I think they are ready for it. The fact that Iraquis are standing up and fighting Saddam is a good indicator of this. I think Iraq will flourish after the war.

Maybe if the 'Arab' world becomes predominantly free your faith will have its' own 'Reformation'! Freedom does have a way of working its way into all aspects of a society once theidea takes hold. I'm not Muslim, but I think this could bea good thing.

[Souljah]

Just saw this thread and though i need to drop a line


Paul H, I've read most of your posts and notcied that you dont take into account the fact that these things have been done by christians to muslims just as much, ahh what the h$ll i'll say it, MUCH more!
This applies to all the points you raised about muslim wrong doings.
The people you talk about that are against the western mindset, Yes I do believe that alot of them go too far.
But then I can also understand why alot of muslims would have a hatred for the western world.....in fact as i made the point to red5 a long time ago, there IS a general anti US and anti western view in the world and I do believe that this has been earnt.

Sure alot is being done NOW in terms of reparations but that does not excuse the fact that people like kissinger and the like have done to people over the years -

if i come into your house, shoot it to smitherines, murder your wife and children, and then say 'sorry I'll help you rebuild the house' what good is that? when the truly valuable objects have been lost.

(sorry got abit off track but then I feel its something that needs to be said)

greg

[dezhen2001]

i think im more an indian surrounded by Custer and his men ;)

actually i agree with what you have said... of course it has taken its toll - how many people have free thought and make their own decisions in life? When i ask a question about a verse in Quran i get told scholar such and such said this, or such and such said that... no one tells me what THEY think and its really sad :(

Basing your life now from scholars who lived a century or so after Muhammed is not really going to help you in this world... its like me using my wing chun exactly the way it was used against traditional weapons and not adapting it to new situations. it just wont work and i will be creamed!

Contrary to what most people believe there ARE muslim groups who are denouncing all these terrible attrocities and the oppression many people suffer. They are just not that big or loud yet :)

Actually i think that Islam can fit in well with this current day and age as long as it remains working from the fundamental foundation (ie. Quran) and is adaptable and challenging new situations in an islamic way.

guess we will have to see what happens - but i have faith in God and in human beings who will do what they always have - adapted to survive.

dawood

[PaulH]

Shaolin Kungfu,

Is it so wrong to defend your life when it is threaten? Look at OSB and his messages. Look at what is going on the Phillipine, Sudan, and Indonesia. Do you want us to be lambs silenced before the slaughters? I speak so far as a human being to another. Do you find this so offensive?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by PaulH
Shaolin Kungfu,

Is it so wrong to defend your life when it is threaten? Look at OSB and his messages. Look at what is going on the Phillipine, Sudan, and Indonesia. Do you want us to be lambs silenced before the slaughters? I speak so far as a human being to another. Do you find this so offensive?

I guess you watch a different news and reports to me.

I saw "reported" christians throwing molotov ****tails into Muslim shops, pulling people of scooters and hacking them to pieces, while burning their scooters.


The reason why I say "reported" as I CAN'T see someones religious beliefs from the outside. And both sides shared similar skin-color and other aspects.


The threatening happens from both sides.

Unless of course you mean that atrocities being done, justify atrocities in return.
Neither of those sides act according to their faith nor as rational human beings.

Cheers.

[dezhen2001]

Is it so wrong to defend your life when it is threaten?

what do u think is happening now?

dawood

[PaulH]

LC,

I speak and rant so far and really way too long because it seems that the world has turned a dead ear to the suffering christians in Asia and Africa. I felt burdened that their tales must be told whether people like it or not. You are right that atrocities had been committed by both sides. Let hope the bloodshed end soon.

[shaolin kungfu]

Is it so wrong to defend your life when it is threaten? Look at OSB and his messages. Look at what is going on the Phillipine, Sudan, and Indonesia. Do you want us to be lambs silenced before the slaughters? I speak so far as a human being to another. Do you find this so offensive?

Has anyone threatened your life? As for Osama Bin Laden, he does not speak for the rest of the muslim population. Crimes against christians don't happen as often as you might like to believe. Yes I do find it offensive. I find all religous extremists offensive.

[dezhen2001]

actually i hate suffering - no matter who it is and where it is from. i agree it needs to stop - but there is a right and a wrong way to do it.

dawood

[Souljah]

I speak and rant so far and really way too long because it seems that the world has turned a dead ear to the suffering christians in Asia and Africa. I felt burdened that their tales must be told whether people like it or not. You are right that atrocities had been committed by both sides. Let hope the bloodshed end soon.

you bring to light this suffering but leave the mass suffering on a much larger scale out?


actually i hate suffering - no matter who it is and where it is from. i agree it needs to stop - but there is a right and a wrong way to do it.

Thats where the main problem lies i think. Do we use our right and their wrong, or my right and your wrong or her right and his wrong. There are still so many differences morally between the world. Not EVERY MUSLIM and EVERY CHRISTIAN think opposite I know and at the same time not every christian and every christian think the same (or muslim and muslim). But i dont believe there is a universal morality.

[dezhen2001]

basically mate i meant that a mass extermination of non-combatant life is WRONG and there must be another way to do it.

doesnt matter what side it is - most religions have a very similar morality aspect in their teaching - unless ur one of those blood sucking cannibalistic tribes and stuff :D

dawood

[dezhen2001]

by the way - what the heck are we doing up at 1.30am for? :D

dawood

[diego]

quik thought its interesting how people can kill for their faith like bhuddists vs bhuddists when bhudda himself gave up his kingdom to help these people...why they fighting for kingdoms

one word


GANGSTERS SHOOT EM UP BANG BANG

i almost gauranty on a whim imo any of these religious wars were prolly started by cia like factions spreading false informations into peeps ears about the other guy or the generals of these armys were not all that religious/righteous to god only the congregation picanic baskets:)

[dezhen2001]

i think u basically summed up the history of conflict dude :D

dawood

[ZIM]

All this talk about Custer and Indians...:eek: You guys know what happened with that....

Dez- thanks for the links. That was the same journal that I found an article related in a strong way to what we're talking about.

In it, the guy was saying that middle east culture does not have a strong evidentiary tradition anymore, at least in the western sense. This kind of resulted in conspiracy-style thinking being the most common style of thought- thats something I can totally agree with, seeing how the pronouncements usually run.

The same can be said, with differing flavors, for North Korea, China, and the West itself, BTW.

The author expressed the view that as more western concepts get introduced and become mainstreamed, the Moslem world [meaning: Arabic, not Islam necessarily] will become more responsible, less 'barbaric' in our eyes. Note that last part.

I'll find the link, hopefully.

[diego]

:cool:

[diego]

haha double posts, the :cool: was to you dez but zim you cool also...just dont call me toine ever agian:D or ima be all up in your picnic basket!!!!!!!!.

[dezhen2001]

Zim: yeh i know, i looked at those links after reading the article you posted :) i cant find any of the old limks i DID have which were good articles by muslims talking against 9/11. terrorism and extremism in Islam - otherwise i would post those too :(

Diego: i have no idea what u just said :)

dawood

[diego]

^guerzabubbum ;)

[dezhen2001]

ah divnae ken whut'ee meen :confused:;)

dawood

[ZIM]

Nah, u ain't toine, man... :p

dez- couldn't find it either...maybe middle east quarterly's got them.
BUT: to reply to mp's 2nd point, there's this one. (http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2001/issue4/jv5n4a2.htm) It's got an interesting quote, and it's similar in some ways:

"Fundamentalists stress individual responsibility and the importance of the internal battle within each believer against sin and temptation. They highlight the ennobling results of this struggle as the believer overcomes his lower nature and develops in purity, God-consciousness and devotion.

As in traditional Islam, the concept of jihad among Muslim fundamentalists is divided into two: the greater jihad and the lesser jihad. The greater jihad is the moral struggle in the individual soul, a continuous struggle aimed at subduing man’s baser nature and attuning him to God’s moral standards revealed in Sharia. The lesser jihad is the one by the sword.

While not all Muslim fundamentalists ascribe to the two-nature doctrine of man, the charismatic preachers and those influenced by Shia and Sufi teachings, do. "

------------------

So, yes, there's individualism in it- even in fundamentalism. Not quite the answer? Or the 'wrong kind' of individuality?
-------
Anyhow, there's other sides to Islam... Dezhen's a good example of that, the new-er generations of converts who will help to translate and promote understanding btwn the cultures, the Ba'hai's are another [IMHO]. A major problem is STILL the tendency for Islamic societies to kill off the gentler movements while allowing the worst to flourish.

[dezhen2001]

Zim: hmmm... Bahai arent really Muslim because they dont accept Muhammed as the last prophet etc. and have other holy Books after Quran... but i respect them non the less :)

Mawdudi argues that as Islam means submission to God, kufr means disobedience to God. God loves Muslims but dislikes kafirs. Muslims find God’s forgiveness, kafirs do not. Muslims will go to jannah (paradise), kafirs to hell (jahannum). Both camps consist of human beings, but Muslims recognize and obey their Lord, while kafirs neither recognize him nor obey him. That is the basic difference.

This is the part that confuses me - God created us all equal, so who knows what He feels? islam teaches every time the people went astray another Messenger was sent... from Adam to Abraham, Lot etc. down to Moses, Jesus and Muhammed. So if he doesnt love people who are disbelievers - why do that? :confused:

Also there is NO guarantee that Muslims will go to paradise - its up to God to decide no one else can judge.

This is why i am confused as its all in Quran very clearly.

dawood

[ZIM]

This is the part that confuses me - God created us all equal, so who knows what He feels? :D :D :D :) :) :) :cool: that's probly the whole essence of my belief.


Found it here. (http://www.meforum.org/article/512) Relevant passage:
"The longer-term solution to the tribulations of Arab Muslim civilization must be found in the inner resources and recuperative powers of Islam itself. But here we encounter another problem: the passive, rigid, uncreative way in which Islamic culture has been transmitted since the Islamic Middle Ages. Modern Arab societies lack a tradition of self-criticism, of rational analysis. Without the ability to analyze successfully the doings of the world around them, or even of their own societies, the Arab public ego has experienced many reverses. It has become defensive and insecure. Public discourse is dominated by a zeitgeist that attributes any bad news to the workings of various exterior, malevolent powers: British intelligence, the Zionist conspiracy, the U.S. Central Intelligence—but never to one's own shortcomings. Such an alibi absolves Arab egos from any blame or responsibility for every setback."

Sorry it took so long! :)
-----

Zim: hmmm... Bahai arent really Muslim Oh, CUT IT OUT! :p :D

[dezhen2001]

that first article you posted was real long - didnt know these kinda sites existed as i never found them before :)

as for Bahai - one of my best friends is bahai, actually from Iraq. His family came here during the original Gulf War. weve talked a lot and its interesting :)

dawood

[ZIM]

D!


i almost gauranty on a whim imo any of these religious wars were prolly started by cia like factions spreading false informations You gotta look up the GRU's info on this one! GRU is the Russian's Military Intelligence service- they're looking close at this. Two CIA colonels were demoted, recently IIRC- from those reports. Just google it- GRU, iraq, reports. It isn't ALL CIA, but they're fingers are in this pretty tight.

[Christopher M]

"We might be witnessing a version of the Protestant Reformation within the Muslim world"

Lets hope they do it better than the Christians did!

[Souljah]

lol

[Merryprankster]

dezhen--

Easy bud. I'll have to re-read that Surah about the women's testimony :D I'm also well aware that the Koran represented a step UP in terms of women's rights, in a historical context.

I also understand the difference many Arab Muslims feel for the "west" and "western government actions."

I disagree strongly with your description of Islam as being a religion with as intense a focus on the personal relationship between God and Man as Christianity--the very existence of Jesus paints a human face on the Almighty! Muhammad the prophet is not nearly as humanizing, psychologically. I stand by my original analysis and generalizations--my intent was not to outline so much what "things are supposed to be," so much as "what they have become." And the development of Islam in human history has tended towards an Islamic state and a society and government which derives its legal system from Sharia--a MARKED difference from both Judaism and Christianity. It has also tended towards a streak of fatalism in Middle Eastern society, just as one might correctly generalize that there is a streak of obesity in the United States, or that there is a streak of not eating cows in India.

I am not surprised you are getting crap from fellow Muslims about your tendency to question. That is exactly my point--they have a tendency to approach the Koran as the infallible recitation of Muhammad's revelations. The "standard" interpretation of same--which you alluded to via your discussion of hadith and majority consensus--tends to be given the same sense of infallibility.

There is less of this in the Christian and Jewish world of today. It is neither better nor worse--merely different--but it DOES have a very real effect on how the world is perceived.

The danger lies in taking these generalizations and using them as sweeping explanation for actions rather than as "jumping off points," to think. I don't particularly feel that I've done that. It's quite clear to me that these terrorists are extremists and do not represent the normal in every conceivable way.

I realize that this may not be the easiest time for you on this board or possibly in real life, so I'm not trying to aggravate you in any way. Again--I'm painting broadly general pictures in an effort to begin systematically analyzing human cultural development. Generalizations are VITAL to that process. Otherwise, you're just making individual, unlinked case studies--and that tells you nothing in an anthropological sense.

[diego]

ZIM

thats interesting what you pointed out about the arab ego as ive been told this by a mixed persian/german about the local persian criminal gangs here in vancouver...hes talking about we act tough in gangs but really we are mommas boys and the reason we get away with so much shiat is because our parents think we are good little boys of allah and anything bad we may get into is just because of peer pressure being a persian in the west so if this kid becomes a pimp the parents will tottally deny his deed as his conscious doing and instead seek to purge his devils by whatever means instead of realizing they parented a bratty kid who acted up once he became grown...a major reason behind the parents denying that it was their boys fault and not western hollywood culture or whatever is because the parents hate the sense of losing face so they just deny it....very facidical if thats a word and that veil i imagine has somthing to do with why muslems dont question shiat like why dont the good muslems oust the extremsists or atleast why dont we see any marches from them in protest!?.

Dez what you think?.

zim ima check those links innabit:cool:

[ZIM]

because the parents hate the sense of losing face so they just deny it.... That IS interesting.. Do you think thats more a Moslem-in-the-West thing, or just a general cultural thing?

The reason I ask is because, if its the first, then you can attribute it [in part] to their perceptions of being an isolated minority. [IE, own up to wrongdoing publicly, others tend to look down on you all the more. Sometimes it happens, so embarassment keeps you from doing so.] Do they correct such behavior wihtin their own communities, or only look the other way when its done to ppl of other communities?

OTOH if its a general thing then we have a case similar to mp's- Islam provides less self-criticism, more fatalism. The parents leave it in Allah's hands....?

[Christopher M]

With respect to...


Originally posted by Merryprankster
Christianity emphasizes a personal relationship with God and Jesus.


Originally posted by dezhen2001
islam says the exact same thing – except we don’t have the idea of original sin and can only get salvation thru Jesus Christ.


Originally posted by Merryprankster
I disagree strongly with your description of Islam as being a religion with as intense a focus on the personal relationship between God and Man as Christianity--the very existence of Jesus paints a human face on the Almighty!

The theological 'breakthrough' of Christianity was that of a God which could be at once both completely transcendant and ineffible and be in direct personal relationship with each and every one of us. I call this a breakthrough because I don't believe it happened earlier (and arguably since). And that last part ("each and every one of us") is an important part of the breakthrough, representing theologically a shift from tribal thinking to global thinking.

That one 'can only get salvation through Jesus Christ' is not an appeal to authority nor servitude. Rather, it describes that, that which made Jesus the son of God is present in each of us (specifically, as the definition of the above mentioned relationship we have with God) - this element called Christ. 'Original sin' describes that state in which we differ from Jesus, whereby Christ is only fully realized in him. So, moreover, that one 'can only get salvation through Jesus Christ' describes that Christ's personification in Jesus resulted in a 'salvific grace', immediately and spontaneously available to all of man, by which we can come to the full realization of Christ in spite of original sin.

Original sin itself is both the act and the result of free will.

Thought this might be worth elaborating on in light of the usual misunderstandings.

[dezhen2001]

hey guys interesting... i gotta get ready for work now so will reply later :)

dawood

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Religions are merely various cultural perspectives of simple spiritual awareness.. the awareness inherent in each of us that we are "parts of a whole", the quest to re-unite with the whole has been manifested as religions according to cultural and geographical customs... The rest is historical accounts of struggles of cultural differences.. No one is right And no one is wrong.. except in the belief that any one religion is superior to another..... (the source of most conflict)

Be well...