Which striking art to study?

[Samurai Jack]

Hi guys. I practice Aikido and previously attained the black belt level in Kung Fu San Soo. I'd like to study a striking martial art that will complement, rather than oppose my Aikido. There is a Wing Chun school, a Shotokan dojo, Kajukenbo, and several Tae Kwon do and Kempo karate schools in my town. Any thoughts on what might be most suitable?

[TzuChan]

Go do some sanda/sanshou ?

[Former castleva]

While you indicate that you need an art that does not oppose your aikido,you fail to point out what skills/attributes you are looking for from an art.
Things being,I´ll add my part subjective idea and say AKK/kempo kara.
It is a downright practical art which does not oppose your aikido since it is based on simple rules of physics and motion,can be shaped to adapt your needs and while being tough is not a "stiff arm" art that taekwondo or maybe shoto COULD turn out to be.
However,make sure the school is legitimate.

et:Actually I´ve heard of kk adapting aikido techniques like iriminage.Do not except to run into them at first sight though. :)

[SanSoo Student]

Try Muay Thai, that consists of mostly striking

[pseudoswitch]

Studying Aikido with Wing Chun seems to be very popular. Apparently they compliment each other very nicely, in principles and technique.

[Mr Chips]

Aikido and Wing Chun would probably go together pretty well. If what i've heard of Aikido is correct they seem to have a similar philosophy and many Wing Chun moves can flow nicely into locks (and probably throws too). Can't comment on the others as i've never done them. Also, have you considered plain old western boxing?

[Chen Zen]

Happily violent:)

[Cheese Dog]

Well of course that's a matter of opinion, so here's my 2 cents worth.

I studied both TKD and Shotokan in the past, they both tend to be much harder and "stiffer" than aikido, plus, at least until a high level, are very linear in footwork.
Don't know much about kajukenbo so can't comment.
Wing Chun is very popular, from what I know about it sounds like a good match.
Kempo: depends on the school. Alot of McDojos stick the name kenpo/kempo in their name when all they are really teaching is point tournement karate with a few "kung-fuish" moves thrown in. If you can find an American Kenpo (Ed Parkers) or traditional Okinawan Kempo school it should fit nicely, alot of the footwork is very similiar.

[Asia]

BAJIQUAN!!!!

to a lesser degree also look into:

Good ole Western Boxing
Savate
Kyokushin Karate (or any of its offshots)

[TzuChan]

yeah, i asked my teacher, what he feared the most when he fought his tournaments in the old days. He said he feared the bad ass Western Boxers the most, mean *******s ;) But I would only start doing Western boxing if you can make something out of it, cause one of the reasons he mentioned western boxing, was because these guys were fast, and didn't mind taking mean punches to the head, on a daily basis, so I don't think it's all that healthy =)

[Ultimatewingchun]

TRADITIONAL WING CHUN... as it is taught by Grandmaster William Cheung and the instuctors in his WORLD WING CHUN KUNG FU ASSOCIATION....

www.cheungswingchun.com


P.S.- It goes real well with Catch wrestling.

[UltimateFighter]

I would recommend training Wing Chun- although beware of the political minefield you are entering with all the various lineages. I personally would recommend Wing Tsun (WT). But be warned that after doing it for a length of time, you may find yourself abandoning the Aikido in favour of a the more practical orientated techniques of WT.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
TRADITIONAL WING CHUN... as it is taught by Grandmaster William Cheung and the instuctors in his WORLD WING CHUN KUNG FU ASSOCIATION....

www.cheungswingchun.com


P.S.- It goes real well with Catch wrestling.

WTF is this?

http://www.cheungswingchun.com/WingChun.corresp.special.html

[Vapour]

If you do any striking arts, aikido will complement these style well in the sence that lot of striking arts technique naturally lead to throw or/and joint locks.

However this may not work in other way. Aikido's combat tactic is to counter the offence by, first avoiding attack then enter into position either by irimi or tenkan where your opponent is valunearable to aikido techniques. For this reason main focus of aikido training including knife and sword attacks, are geared toward giving aikidoka the right feel for distancing (maai).

Therefore, if you pursue any striking arts which train you to aggressively attack opponent, you are throwing away aikido strategy which comes extremely handy in SD against weapons.

So as previous people stated, if you do Xingyi, for example, you may have to discard everything about aikido except techniques (joint lock and throws) because Xingyi encourage you to aggresively entere into close quater striking distance which is least preferable strategy if you do aikido. If you do TKD, because of its emphasis on kick, you might throw away aikido footwork. So if you want to improve your aikido by doing any striking arts, my advice is to find karate/kungfu style which emphasise circular mostion and foot work. For example, I find taijiquan has great overlap (bit too much in my opinion) with aikido.

On the other hand, if "complementing aikido" means complementing your combat/SD application, you might want to do striking arts which is completely opposit from aikido such as MT.

[KAJUKENBO_MAN]

As a Kajukenbo black belt myself, I would recommend that you check out the Kajukenbo school near you. Kajukenbo, being based on a combination of Tang Soo Do, Judo/JuJitsu, Kenpo, and Kung Fu will blend with what you have in Aikido. Our Kajukenbo school incorporates a lot of Aikido and JuJitsu ground work, along with the stand up kenpo, Tang Soo Do, and Kung Fu. :)

[NeedsPractice]

Nobody has really talked about body movement. Since wing chun tends to have a tighter movement structure than aikido, and a differnet mind set you would probably be better of with kaj or kenpo or karate. You may find a japanese striking art easier to absorb at the same time as you are trying to learn aikido, than learning a chinese art and a japanese art at the same time, in addition to taking into consideration the way the body is used.

Trying to learn to use your body 2 different ways at the same time in regards to structure, movement and power generation will definitly slow down your learning time. I say this from my experience.

[Cyborg]

I think Vapour is right about the footwork, that's the key. Look for footwork that's similar to your aikido without worrying too much about the rest of it.

[greendragon]

Definately not shotokan or TKD. Try TaiChiChuan to learn push hands. TaiChiChuan is just as much a fighting art as other KF styles. Again, choose the teacher not the art.

[HuangKaiVun]

Look deeper into the sets of your kung fu San Soo, Samurai Jack.

If you're already a black belt in that system, you need to be looking into how your Aikido moves are already in your kung fu sets. Trust me, they're THERE.

Kung Fu San Soo is definitely not just a striking art.

[kirionkane]

it would be cool if you could find a hapkido school that did lots of sparring, then spend more time at home with weights and heavy bag. maybe after a year or so of that, find a grappling class.

[JKogas]

You could always study (*gasp*) BOXING....

[CD Lee]

I cannot believe nobody has mentioned Baguazang? While I would not call it a 'striking' art, it certainly strikes and fights in ways that can hurt someone very badly.

With Bagua, is blends beautifuly with Akido in my mind. The footwork is evasive, and the attack is evasive and based on deflection and balance manipulation. In fact the good Aikido I have seen looks very similar to good Bagua I have seen. And done correctly, they are both can be all you need them to me in a fight. Especially on the street against multiple opponents.

I am a Xingyi student BTW. Yes we take the center very quicly, but not without opening the door with deflection and unbalancing first. But the footwork is not as good for your art as Bagua. The hard part is finding a good teacher. Trust me, that can be very difficult.

[LEGEND]

Usually when u get into this type of debate...u prob. have not done alot of sparring. U're concern about complimenting an art is typical of one that needs to spar full contact with protective gear. It shouldn't matter cause once u're in a sparring matchup...u'll find out what works. WING CHUN is an aggressive KF style. So I don't see how that will compliment akikdo unless u plan to CHAIN PUNCH and then finish the guy with a joint lock break.

[bob10]

The problem with taking wing chun, taiji, baji, etc, etc is that you will be made to learn forms, then more and made to conform to certain patterns of movement.

Your best bet is to take up boxing - it will be effective much more quickly (and probably remain more effective in the longer term too).

You will also find it useful in that you will be learning to deal with the type of punch that you will most likely face in the street. The chances of someone throwing a wing chun punch at you in real life are remote.

[yuanfen]

Please stay away from wing chun-
enough dabblers in wing chun.

[HuangKaiVun]

On the other hand, Wing Chun has some great ways of thwarting a typical streetfighting punch.

For example, a well placed fook sau will stop a guy from throwing a sucker punch uppercut at your gut.

[Yung Apprentice]

I've heard a couple suggestions, some saying to stay away from this or that. But what striking art isn't aggressive? The closest I can come up with, is the forementioned, BAGUA. But since Samurai Jack might not have access to a Bagua teacher, I would go with WC. All striking arts will go against the Akido way, but I think WC would be ok.(hey that ryhmed:D )

[Samurai Jack]

Hey, thanks for the many replies this topic has recieved over the many months it's been running! I've decided to stick with just Aikido until I've reached the black belt level. At this point I'm not really qualified to detect what Aikido's weaknesses are (if any). There are lots of Atemi strikes in Aikido anyway, so I guess my earlier concerns of a few months ago have since been proven to be unwaranted.

[fidon]

I think Wing Chun should complement the Aikido nicely, either that or Kempo

[Shaolin-Do]

Little known fact-
Shortly before "creating" Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba went to china and learned some CMA... Most likely of which bagua. He came back from china with a new, circular fighting system... "new"... I think if you want to blend, the bagua would work beatifully. If you are proficient enough however, you can use different styles at different ranges, linear or circular....

[Merryprankster]

Well, that may be true, Shaolin Do, but let's not call it a fact just yet. I've heard varying reports.

[Yung Apprentice]

Shaolin Do- He just said there isn't any Bagua in his town.

[NeedsPractice]

i have it from a good authority that in a book written by ueshiba, he acknowledges studying chinese martial arts, and that being part of the influence. I will get the title of the book and post it.
Also if you look at daito ryu, one of the main arts that influenced aikido it is more linear , than aikido or bagua.
For some reason the japanese, dont seem to like to acknowledge the influence of the chinese. karate if traced to okinawa leads back to China, the ki of japan and the chi of china are the same if expressed diffferently depending on the art etc.
not trying to troll, and this post is getting off the point.
I am not trying to knock the japanese arts in any way, I have put some effort into studying them, and I have met some very skilled martial artists who studied various japanese arts.

[Merryprankster]

i have it from a good authority that in a book written by ueshiba, he acknowledges studying chinese martial arts, and that being part of the influence.

Interesting, and not unlikely. Do we know what the art was?

[Yung Apprentice]

Yeah, that would be interesting to know.


As for the Japanese not ackowledging the Chinese, didn't Karate originally mean "China Hand"? Or something like that.

[NeedsPractice]

i belive I was told tai chi and maybe bagua, I will get the book title so this isnt just heresay.

I know what you mean by china hand etc, but in general at least in the karate classes, I have been in I have never heard any talk of chinese arts at all. no mention of the chinese influence etc.
some korean books barely want to acknowledge the japanese influence on tae kwon do, prefering to claim 2000 years of korean history,so you get my point.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Yung Apprentice

As for the Japanese not ackowledging the Chinese, didn't Karate originally mean "China Hand"? Or something like that.

Yes, it was changed when Funakoshi(sp.) brought the arts into Japan.

Even today many styles that acknowledge their chinese origin still add "Kempo(Chuan Fa)" to the styles name.
Ex.: Shorinshi Kempo (Shaolin Fist method)

Cheers.

[Djimbe]

:confused:

I cant believe that people here are Not reccomending the Best Instruction in his area , in the Stead of acting as if the Style matters more than the Level of Training hes getting .

While your Opinion of system Supremacy may be well Founded in your Opinion , if you dont know the Level of the Instructors in his Area , then whats the Point ? Id Rather learn from Floyd Mayweather than WC/WT guy #107 , no matter how much better i may think WC is .

Im just asking that ppl THINK Before they SPEAK .

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :

By the By

JOY :

I know what you mean , man .
I know what you mean .

[Merryprankster]

Hell, I wouldn't want to learn from Floyd. I'd want to learn from a guy with an established record of training good people.

[Shadowboxer]

Find and Aikido school that teaches Atemi well. I used to train in Aikido but the style was a softer style that did not focus on atemi. Stick with your art that you have invested in rather than "complementing it". The strikes are there you have to find/learn them.

O'Sensei did travel and fight and incorporate what he learned into his system. I don't doubt he picked up some Bagua along the way. When I was training Aikido, we used hand techniques from Wing Chun (the art I train in now). I've also realized that he "borrowed" some of the footwork and irimi stepping from WC, specifically "sit ma" for "irimi nage" - the triangle step. There is also heavy jujitsu and judo influence, as well as kendo. The backbone is the Daito-ryu Aiki-jujitsu Samurai arts.

[JacSavage]

For the ultimate in striking be sure to check out Hikuta.

i have several students w/ aikido backgrounds and they have no problems integrating the 2 systems.

I also have a 3rd drgree BB in aikido as a student-- he loves both systems and says they complement each other well.

Jack Savage
HikutaCombatSystems.com

Hikuta Factoids: NOTE: For the decade that Hikuta has been offered on a limited basis commercially it has as far as anyone knows THE HIGHEST SATISFACTION RATE IN THE INDUSTRY! For the past year that HikutaCombatSystems has been in business their has not been a single case of anyone dissatisfied with my products and wishing any kind of refund! That is a 100% satisfaction rate! This holds true, to the best of my knowledge, for other Hikuta products offered currently and in the past! A truly phenomenal track record!

Why? How? Perhaps because results such as this are commonplace :I received early in December and I am just a beginner. I have had around 12 training sessions ....I have always considered myself to be of average speed or maybe even slower. After receiving the package I video taped myself throwing some regular boxing stanced punches and put them on the back burner. After training with the Hikuta package and applying < the>techniques --MAN--I have gained tremendous speed--I taped myself after 1 month and the difference is incredible. I have become ten times faster with my strikes--there is no other strike that compares to a Hikuta strike if you ask me---my power has increased also as I have been using a heavy bag. I am extremely happy with the Hikuta package I ordered and I am looking forward to learning more and more about this art. I would love to learn some of the Hikuta grappling techniques and countering grabs or holds to throw in the mix with my new found striking ability. Thanx Jack for all your time you have invested to ... Hikuta ... and for your many prompt responses and your great input on the subject. Will definitely continue to sharpen my skills at Hikuta. I am really stunned by the speed I have gained in such a small
amount of time. I can see what you mean that there is no time to react because even I can tell by watching my video that it is almost as fast as the eye can see---I couldn't imaging how fast you guys are with all of your training involved! -Genin Q

[Yung Apprentice]

:confused: We have info-mercials on the forum now?:rolleyes: Never heard of haiku fighting style.:p



djimbe- That goes without saying, instruction before style. But, Samurai Jack is not a beginner, and I'm sure he's well aware of the fact that instruction should go before style. Besides, the post was, what striking art would compliment my style? He didn't say he was going to go running out and join right away.


I'm just asking ppl to read the thread better before they speak.:)

[Christopher M]

The early aikido looks like daito-ryu. The alleged similarities people remark upon come late in it's development. If aikido was the heir of taiji or bagua, one would expect the opposite. One would also expect them to share some training methods.

Perhaps the japanese invented a martial art.

[Samurai Jack]

I cannot understand why people are so eager to make an Aikido-Ba Gua connection. I initially read this opinion in B.K. Frantzis' The Power of Internal Martial Arts. It was a truly facinating exposition on Frantzis' training, but even he admitted that his Aikido/Ba Gua theory was based solely on the movements that he learned in both arts, and not from any verifiable source, such as a book by O-Sensei.

Just to clarify what I've written before on this subject: O-sensei ALWAYS said the techniques of Aikido came from an amalgam of Yagu Ryu Kenjutsu (swordsmanship), Yarijutsu (spearmanship), and Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. The footwork and hand positions in Yagu Ryu are perfectly and seamlessly represented in the way the Nage and Atemi techniques of Aikido are performed.

Many Atemi are obviously derived from spearmanship, most notably Tski (forward punch). I understand that this is true of Hsing-i as well as Karate, yet no claim of some "link" is made here. Why not?

Ultimately it dosen't matter if there is, or is not a Ba Gua connection with Aikido. O-sensei was always forthcoming when questioned as to Aikido's oregins, so why make up such convoluted, and ultimatly pointless theories?

The techniques of most martial arts enjoy many similarities between each other. It should be the spirit of Aikido that attracts practitioners as this is what truly separates Aikido as an art.

[Shaolin-Do]

Sparring people from other styles may actually help your striking significantly, while letting you still focus on your aikido. You can still throw people around sparring, and itll get you used to throwing people out of attacks.
:)

[HuangKaiVun]

I can't imagine Morihei Ueshiba having any link whatsoever to Baguazhang.

If Ueshiba had really studied Bagua the way BK Frantzis claimed, then Aikido would've had a circle walk, Single/Double palm changes, and TONS of striking from all angles.


You can't have a reality based martial art without striking, and you can't have a reality based martial art without grappling.

You must have BOTH if you want to survive a real fight.

[Samurai Jack]

Thanks for the supporting comments Huang. I agree that a martial artist must have skill in both striking and grappling. Would you not also agree that a student might better serve the long term goals of self mastery and expert profieciency by aquiring a high level of skill in one system before attempting to learn another?

As an interesting side note, I read an interview with one of O-Sensei's disciples, T.K. Chiba, who asserted that the old Hombu dojo used to have makiwara in the garden where students would practice atemi. That's sort of a far cry from what you commonly see in Aikido today, but certainly shows that Aikido's striking techniques CAN be persued with the same dedication that other arts do. I'm interested in making makiwara, or at least heavy bag work a feature of my future practice.

[HuangKaiVun]

You're quite knowledgeable, Samurai Jack.

On the other hand, I believe that trying to master one style to the exclusion of others before trying others doesn't necessarily help in real fighting

Morihei Ueshiba never had to fight BJJ guys that would sprawl him, take him down, and try to apply a leglock on him while choking him. If he did, why didn't he talk about developing one's physical strength in the legs to withstand takedowns - or fight effectively from that position? There are other things to consider in grappling as well.

Hence no amount of traditional Aikido training would teach a person how to fight out of that position.

Nor would it save a woman who's ambushed in bed by an experienced rapist who knows exactly how to apply submission holds and the like.


By the way, I do not utilize heavy bags or makiwara in teaching my students.

We feel that it's better to develop things like throat grabs and groin slaps as opposed to toughening up one's calluses on a stationary object, especially in today's world where the average criminal will NOT go down simply because you punched him hard repeatedly.

[Laughing Cow]

HKV.

i would like to point out a few facts:

1.) When Ueshiba created Aikido there was NO BJJ as yet.
2.) What did exist was Judo & Jujitsu, both arts from which BJJ was derived.
3.) Kano and Ueshiba were friends and exchanged knowledge, Kano even send some of his own students to study under Ueshiba.

This clearly shows that Ueshiba was well aware of ground-fighting and even trained with some people versed in it.

So I don't know how you came to your conclussions about Ueshiba and lack of knowledge in newaza.

Cheers.

[HuangKaiVun]

I came to that conclusion because I have yet to see anything in Aikido that involves a forward moving assault.

Any true grappling style will, as a rule, introduce the concept of strong legs as a basic fundamental. A strong horse stance of some sort that can MOVE (among other power moves) is absolutely fundamental to excellence in grappling. Maybe aikido has that power training, but I've seen aikido on both sides of the American continent practiced by both Japanese and nonJapanese stylists and I have NEVER seen that except in fragments by some of the Nihon folks.

Also, any streetfighting method that really emphasizes reality combat will have a HUGE emphasis on strikes. A lot of the time, a strike is exactly what is needed to soften up an opponent in order to pull off the "big move" (or escape from one). Often, forward aggression is the best defense.

O-Sensei was able to practice aikido till the end of his days against some pretty big opponents. But what were they doing? If they were training to REALLY fight, O-Sensei would've been kicked and pummelled into little pieces on a daily basis (which is what happens to ME and I'm 29!) There's no way he could've withstood that kind of pounding even in a controlled situation - I know because I face it every day and I can barely keep up in the prime of my life!

And of the aikido guys I've known, not a single one I've met would've lasted two seconds against a hardened streetfighter. Maybe my experience is limited, but I've been around quite a bit and kung fu is my living. A good style should have many good fighters in it.

Defending against with a sword hand downward chop is one thing, facing a guy who resists your moves with his own grappling is another.

[Samurai Jack]

Quote:
"If they were training to REALLY fight, O-Sensei would've been kicked and pummelled into little pieces on a daily basis (which is what happens to ME and I'm 29!)"

Not trying to pick a fight here, but it seems unlikely to me that you're as good at 29 as O-Sensei was in his prime. By the time he was taking on challengers in his fifties he had been training for almost forty years. These weren't Mcdojo's he was training at either, but rather with some of the hardest fighters to be found in the world at that time. I understand that your opinion is based on your experiences NOW, but when you and I eventually achieve his level of skill, perhaps our viewpoint will be different.

Quote:
"And of the aikido guys I've known, not a single one I've met would've lasted two seconds against a hardened streetfighter. Maybe my experience is limited, but I've been around quite a bit and kung fu is my living. A good style should have many good fighters in it."

I'd like to think that I train at a hard core dojo, we certainly work hard :D but I am also aware that not all Aikido dojo's subscribe to hard, painful, and most importantly, realistic training.
Perhaps you have been privileged to have trained in a serious Kung Fu style, but you are also assuredly aware that Kung Fu as a whole has at least as shady a reputation as Aikido among pure self defense enthusiasts?

It dosen't prove anything of course, but if misconceptions exist about your art, surely they can exist about mine as well. I think most of the fault is due to misinterpretations of O-Sensei's spiritual philosophy in the later stages of Aikido's development.
Many people think Aikido is all about good feelings and hippy ki.

In my opinion, they miss the point that it was the hard work and pain of many years of arduous training that brought O-Sensei to a place where he could do things like fight people and not hurt them. Us lesser mortals must resort to grosser methods, but it behooves us to remember that victory over another person is nothing but a loss for our higher selves.

Just a thought.

[Merryprankster]

We feel that it's better to develop things like throat grabs and groin slaps as opposed to toughening up one's calluses on a stationary object, especially in today's world where the average criminal will NOT go down simply because you punched him hard repeatedly.

Heavy bags just teach you how to throw down with power. Your structure MUST be right to have any impact and to avoid hurting yourself, as compared to pad work or light bag work where you can get away with structural deficiencies. That's it. Good stuff as far as it goes, but it's just a tool like any other.

[HuangKaiVun]

You can't say that I'm NOT as good as O-sensei at age 29, since you have seen neither him nor me fight.

THAT would be a great fight, me against O-sensei in his prime. I'm not afraid to say that my money is on ME, and I don't care how disrespectful that sounds.

Remember that O-Sensei was a mere mortal like the rest of us, with flesh and bone that was no different from ours.

Nor was he trained to fight kung fu fighters of authentic combat lineage, else his art would've included hard chi gung training (Iron Body) and an extensive blocking system to deal with incoming strikes that come during grappling transitions (especially in a multiple opponent scenario).

Why do I state all this emphatically? Because I can SEE IT in his body, his muscles, his tendons, and his posture. There's no way he'd stand so erect with me (or my 200 lb+ students) pressing our bodies against his, especially since we'd be countering his moves with our own chin na as well as strikes and dirty tricks.

Because of the lack of attention to covering himself in transition, I find it very improbable that O-sensei studied kung fu or even faced hardened kung fu fighters in China, given that he didn't teach even a single kata that came from a Chinese art. After all, only a tiny fraction of the population in China then and now actually has studied kung fu, let alone used it to fight.

Notice how the Okinawan karate styles are littered with kata learned from kung fu that comes from Fuzhou and Fukien province? If O-sensei had even studied one day with a real competent kung fu man, why didn't he include solo set training in aikido? Solo kata training is the FOUNDATION of Chinese kung fu schooling.

And where's the medical theory that deals with the implications of grappling and striking, especially after the fight and the body is all broken?

If O-Sensei was dealing with regular heavy striking and grappling even in the practice session, he would HAVE to have worked on patching the body back together. In fact, he'd have to be constantly patching HIS body back together especially in his late years.

I'm constantly massaging out combat-inflicted cuts and bruises in the daily course of training in my school. "The Bubishi" goes into such things with great detail, much of which we use on a daily basis. After all, "The Bubishi" is actually the "Shaolin Bronze Man Book" of Seng Men (Monk Fist) , the combat art I learned from my Chinese sifu.


I am certainly aware that kung fu has a shady reputation, and that's why I fully believe your claim that your aikido is tough. Virtually none of the kung fu men I've met can fight experienced streetfighters either, so I agree with you there.

From the looks of your posts, your aikido is as serious as my kung fu is. I respect your art 100% and would be privileged to see it one day. I'm just saying that I haven't seen solid aikido yet just as you haven't seen solid kung fu yet. We are on the same page.

If you want to see what my "Seng Men" (Monk Fist) style looks like, read "The Bubishi". The "monk fist" set in the back of the book is virtually identical to the stuff we do, though we've got TONS more groundfighting than the book depicts.

[Samurai Jack]

Interesting stuff! Thanks for the information Huang.

[Fu-Pau]

Originally posted by HuangKaiVun

THAT would be a great fight, me against O-sensei in his prime. I'm not afraid to say that my money is on ME, and I don't care how disrespectful that sounds.

Remember that O-Sensei was a mere mortal like the rest of us, with flesh and bone that was no different from ours.

Nor was he trained to fight kung fu fighters of authentic combat lineage, else his art would've included hard chi gung training (Iron Body) and an extensive blocking system to deal with incoming strikes that come during grappling transitions (especially in a multiple opponent scenario).

Why do I state all this emphatically? Because I can SEE IT in his body, his muscles, his tendons, and his posture. There's no way he'd stand so erect with me (or my 200 lb+ students) pressing our bodies against his, especially since we'd be countering his moves with our own chin na as well as strikes and dirty tricks.



:rolleyes:

[greendragon]

HuangKV, I don't think you have a comprehensive picture of aikido. The circlular moves are there on three levels but they are dynamic and not static as kung fu is practised. We do not block, we harmonize and redirect like TaiChi. There is much striking practised as the roots of Aikido are in Daito Ryu. O Sensei was a bad a** hard fighter when he was young, maybe your age, but evolved into effortless power, as you will eventually. If you were to attack him it would sadden him to see you injure yourself. On the kung fu/ aikido connection, i think any similarities are coincidence from being based on natural movement.

[HuangKaiVun]

No blocks = no survival in real life encounters.

Don't believe me? Try fighting somebody outside of your style, especially if he knows anything about Western Boxing.

That holds true for O-Sensei too.

[bob10]

You mean you can use blocks against a good boxer?

[HuangKaiVun]

You mean that Lennox Lewis doesn't have to get his hands up to protect his head from getting broken in the ring?

If raising your arm to stop a punch isn't a "block," what would I call that?

Doubtless Ueshiba (or any aikido man) would "block" if he faced off against Lennox Lewis in the street.

[chokemaster]

I would check into Muay Thai, It is hard on the body at first.
Or if no MT try western boxing.

Great Thread on striking Arts.

[BAI HE]

I think the reason so many people are enamored with MT and Western Boxing has more to do with the conditioning than technique. Let's face it both arts are rather limited.

Another fact to face, those guys train extremely hard and
train how they fight.

[Golden Arms]

HKV, I have used aikido just fine against a fairly talented and EXTREMELY hardhitting western boxer, and I threw him on his ass repeatedly before finally jointlocking him..he caught me a few, but overall it was no contest. This came about because he didnt believe 'aikido worked' and so we had a friendly couple of rounds :) It doesnt mean its the only approach..but this much needs to be said...People need to stop judging what they SEE, and start judging what they FEEL. Because my aikido sensei looked like an overweight, jolly guy, and man..the second you stepped in front of him it suddenly felt like you were looking face to face with a mother tiger that felt like her cubs were in danger. So the thing about you vs. O Sensei..that is sort of ridiculous. My old sensei was his last Uchideschi, and I have seen and heard him speak in awe of the things o sensei could do..his structure was so good that he could hold out a sword, have five guys push on the tip to either side, and he wouldnt budge..you think YOU could break that kind of posture when someone has trained for 40+ years?

[chokemaster]

I will not bash O Sensei for sure but my experience with Aikido was not great.

But that could just be the teacher I had I don't know?

I am just glad there is something for everyone out there.

to each his own right?

[Dark Knight]

"I think the reason so many people are enamored with MT and Western Boxing has more to do with the conditioning than technique. Let's face it both arts are rather limited.

Another fact to face, those guys train extremely hard and
train how they fight."

The last part should be posted on the walls of the school and practiced that way.

[Yung Apprentice]

Chokemaster- I PM'ed you.

[chokemaster]

Your messages are full so here it is....lol


Sorry I need to change that, I live in Holland, Michigan now right on Lake Michigan about 25 miles from Grand Rapids. When I lived in Flint I had my own school there and I drove to Saginaw and Detroit area.

If you talk to them tell them to check www.mma.tv they have a good list of Grappling schools by state.

[ryuujin]

With what little experience ive had in both i believe that a good striking art would be lung ying, ive trained minorly in it and ive started to train seriously in it and its motions carry over since its based in circular forms and using the waist for momentum and power.