Wooden dummy form experiences/revelations/thoughts?

[Stevo]

Would anyone like to share any experiences/revelations/thoughts they have had as a result of learning and practising the wooden dummy form?

Cheers,
Stevo

[TjD]

structure and use of the body in every motion.
how to hit hard as hell.

[Stevo]

OK, thanks TJD.

[KPM]

That's a rather broad question. :-) So just a few random thoughts......I think the dummy has helped me develop my expression of power/ging, reinforces good angling/positioning, and contains most of the key applications of the WCK system. I consider the dummy form to be the most advanced aspect of the training. I think the historical design and use of the dummy that developed within the WCK system is one of those "flashes of genious" that we see on rare occassions.

Keith

[TjD]

i think the wooden dummy coupled with chi sau are two of the three most important things in WC (the 3rd being footwork, most especially entering footwork).

chi sau shows you how to get your hand to your opponent, the wooden dummy shows you what lineup your hand should have there (structurally) and how to unleash your power into your opponent from there. it gives us a place to use all our power since we can't be doing that in chi sau (too many unconcious and broken kung fu brothers/sisters would result).

basically, good chi sau shows you how to get your hand there, then the dummy shows you what to do once its there.

the last part of the equation is how to get in range so can hit or have your chi sau reflexes can take over. personally i think this is found in the knives/sparring.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Stevo
Would anyone like to share any experiences/revelations/thoughts they have had as a result of learning and practising the wooden dummy form?

Cheers,
Stevo
Positioning
Proper Structure
Footwork

Chances are that anyone performing the muk jong with any power is doing it wrong. :p Power is the least important component and the last to learn in Wing Chun.

Regards,

[TjD]

Originally posted by Grendel
Chances are that anyone performing the muk jong with any power is doing it wrong. :p

i'm sorry but your totally off on this one. without any power your wing chun is little more than patty-cake and your going to get your ass whipped. learning the wooden dummy properly teaches you how to release your power. if you do the dummy with bad structure and/or bad timing and/or try to muscle it - it will show and you will be off balance (the wooden dummy can really show who the dummy is). this is different than doing the wooden dummy with proper wing chun power.

when you do the dummy, do you just tap it? if you're just tapping it, how do you know if you have any structure or if your line up or positioning is good, how are you learning to release properly? is this any different than doing a form in the air? the more power you can absorb from and emit on the dummy without becoming off-balanced, the better your form is.

[foolinthedeck]

first time i had the chance to use a dummy, Yip Chun was visiting Sifu Tse. Yip Chun thru a translator told me how i was kicking the dummy wrong. I'm not sure if he knew that i had never used one before, but i was a bit over awed to remember if i learned anything. But i will always remember that moment. :)

[Savi]

All of you bring good knowledge to the thread here! I am also in agreement with the use of energy (Biu Jee in particular) against the dummy and it's great for arm/hand/fist conditioning. Sometimes in our school, we refer to that as ‘Character-Building’…

I remember my first day training under Sifu Loewenhagen. He told me that as a beginner you can learn the wooden dummy form in a relatively short period of time. However, the true knowledge of proper body mechanics and applications would never be there.

From a logistical standpoint, one must first have the ability to properly coordinate all body parts to achieve proper use of the apparatus. Hence you must go through SNT/SLT and Chum Kiu and Biu Jee first. Through these stages, as you develop your attributes, can they play a key role in utilizing the foundational guiding principles and concepts of your family’s Wing Chun on the Muk Yan Jong.

The majority of WCK’s trapping methods tend to be highly focused on at the SNT/SLT and Chi Sao level learning, as far as I know. Therefore, we must put into perspective the fact one has to bring and use their ‘building blocks’ for further refinement when training on the wooden dummy. Proper sticking and highly developed sensitivity allow the practitioner to also execute Chum Kiu footwork [once trained at the ‘Pushing Horse’ stage in Chi Sao in our family] to support their hand applications. Training Biu Jee allows us to further/deepen our understanding of energy factor and its relationship to time.

Just to name a few points, we must rely on:

1. Know how to get from ‘point A’ to ‘point B’ in the most efficient and effective manner.

2. Tactical sensitivity to achieve proper time and space in relation to the wooden dummy.

3. Constant awareness and reinforcement of the principles for proper execution of applications.

4. Full technical knowledge (nature, principles, concepts, tactic and strategy, and the mechanical ‘know-how’) of all techniques and applications.

During the black sash classes at Meng’s of AZ, I frequently relate the use of the dummy with Chi Sao to our sihingdai. The dummy is a close-range apparatus designed to have you train the bridging and trapping ranges of combat. That tells us that we cannot solely rely on eyesight or ‘guess work’ to gauge our precision. This is just my understanding of how we train the MYJ.

Thanks,
-Savi.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by TjD
i'm sorry but your totally off on this one. without any power your wing chun is little more than patty-cake and your going to get your ass whipped.

You misread my comments.

[TjD]

Originally posted by Grendel

You misread my comments.


ahh, yeah your right :D but i still think the dummy should knocked around, and you should always strive to knock it around harder.

back after i had been practicing the wooden dummy for awhile, sigung ip ching made a visit to our school. he said that we should use the yu (sp? mabye hu) ma in every motion (use the power from the yee gee kim yung ma in every motion). i make that a point every time i do the dummy, and its done wonders for my wing chun as a whole. it's the best advice i've recieved on doing that form.

[kj]

Originally posted by TjD
without any power your wing chun is little more than patty-cake and your going to get your ass whipped.

There is a subtle but hugely important distinction between "feeling" intentionally powerful and "being" incidentally powerful. What the Wing Chun person feels and "what the dummy feels" differ drastically, and IMHO, this is as it should be. It's a bit of a paradox, yet no mystery to those who've experienced it.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[TjD]

Originally posted by kj


There is a subtle but hugely important distinction between "feeling" intentionally powerful and "being" incidentally powerful. What the Wing Chun person feels and "what the dummy feels" differ drastically, and IMHO, this is as it should be. It's a bit of a paradox, yet no mystery to those who've experienced it.


true, the results are all in the dummy. however i have a definate feeling when the wooden dummy really goes flying/reverberating/whatever it does when it gets hit with good WC mechanics. this is what i call power. however, the majority of the populous probably wouldnt :)

[Atleastimnotyou]

Kathy jo is correct IMO.
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(the following is not directing towards anyone, it is just a comment)

It is one thing to hit the dummy body and to be substantial. but there is no need to hit the arms hard enough to to break them, that is just crude. if that is practiced then you are not listening to the dummy or using sensitivity. which is low level skill.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by KPM
That's a rather broad question. :-) So just a few random thoughts......I think the dummy has helped me develop my expression of power/ging, reinforces good angling/positioning, and contains most of the key applications of the WCK system. I consider the dummy form to be the most advanced aspect of the training. I think the historical design and use of the dummy that developed within the WCK system is one of those "flashes of genious" that we see on rare occassions.

Keith

Thanks, Keith - good points.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by TjD
i think the wooden dummy coupled with chi sau are two of the three most important things in WC (the 3rd being footwork, most especially entering footwork)...

basically, good chi sau shows you how to get your hand there, then the dummy shows you what to do once its there.
[/B]

Good way of looking at it, TjD - thanks.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Grendel

Positioning
Proper Structure
Footwork

Chances are that anyone performing the muk jong with any power is doing it wrong. :p Power is the least important component and the last to learn in Wing Chun.

Regards,

Yes, those three things are mainly what I'm working on. The way I see it they lead to power anyway. I do try to release jing-type power into the dummy through my strikes, though. Thanks, Grendel.

[Stevo]

Hi Savi - thanks for your comments.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Savi

From a logistical standpoint, one must first have the ability to properly coordinate all body parts to achieve proper use of the apparatus. Hence you must go through SNT/SLT and Chum Kiu and Biu Jee first. Through these stages, as you develop your attributes, can they play a key role in utilizing the foundational guiding principles and concepts of your family’s Wing Chun on the Muk Yan Jong.

OK - good points. We (WSL style) start to learn the wooden dummy form (first 60 movements) in between learning Chum Kiu and starting to learn Biu Jee.

[snip]

Just to name a few points, we must rely on:

1. Know how to get from ‘point A’ to ‘point B’ in the most efficient and effective manner.

2. Tactical sensitivity to achieve proper time and space in relation to the wooden dummy.

3. Constant awareness and reinforcement of the principles for proper execution of applications.

4. Full technical knowledge (nature, principles, concepts, tactic and strategy, and the mechanical ‘know-how’) of all techniques and applications.


Yes - great points. Thanks again, Savi.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Atleastimnotyou
Kathy jo is correct IMO.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(the following is not directing towards anyone, it is just a comment)

It is one thing to hit the dummy body and to be substantial. but there is no need to hit the arms hard enough to to break them, that is just crude. if that is practiced then you are not listening to the dummy or using sensitivity. which is low level skill.

OK. I just use some shearing force on the dummy arms with some intercepting and deflecting techniques. I can't imagine how anyone could break one, unless it was one of the iron palm guys who got a bit too carried away!