consciousness

[foolinthedeck]

i'd like to hear some opinions on the subject of wing chuns effect on consciousness.

Peter Ralston talks about using martial arts to develop consciousness, but he normally means tai chi, hsing i, or bagua.

i feel like my motivation in wing chun at my stage of development is not to hit harder or faster, not to be able to defend myself, not to be able to hit people.

my motivation is simply to develop my consciousness and strange though that may sound, wing chun is the most powerful thing i have to do that. It puts me in my body, aware of everything but also lets me 'be' with thinking or reacting in a normal way.

chi sau is the main key to this experience.

has anyone else had experience of this?

i'd be especially interested if anyone knows of any studies into brain wave patterns while people did very relaxed chi sau. di they enter into meditative patterns?

[TjD]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
chi sau is the main key to this experience.


try giving your whole attention to siu lim tau, that will help your ability to give full attention in chi sau - and everything else you do.

wing chun doesnt help your conciousness, your conciousness helps your conciousness - whenever its around and you pay attention, you're helping it.

[kj]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
i'd be especially interested if anyone knows of any studies into brain wave patterns while people did very relaxed chi sau. di they enter into meditative patterns?

I doubt there have been a preponderance of formal studies specifically on this. However, if you do a search on this forum, you may find some of Hendrik's (Phenix's) references to Theta waves interesting. Studies on such things outside the context of Wing Chun should provide a more fruitful search.

The ultimate trick is to be able to sustain optimal mental and physical states (whatever we define those to be) even when engaged in situations severely different from very relaxed chi sau. In another thread, Grendel spoke of learning to control one's body. Controlling one's mind must be another and no less important aspect of the equation. The other element is of course spirit. The most appropriate balance of methods to achieve this capability is where opinions diverge.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Jabb]

Everytime you concentrate on something, you develope your consiousness, so I guess yes, it can help you develope your consiousness.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Jabb
Everytime you concentrate on something, you develope your consiousness, so I guess yes, it can help you develope your consiousness.


everytime I think to develope MY conscious thinking mind, I lost the natural. the trick is to get my mind away... :D

[Phenix]

Hi KJ, Joy

http://www.annerpino.com/2001/thetawaves.html

http://www.educationalcoach.co.uk/brainwave.htm

http://www.multidimensions.com/con_thoughts_6chakra.html

http://www.zhime.com/bwfreqs/theta.htm

http://www.brainwashed.com/h3o/dreamachine/bwstates.html

LOL. Let see if the Shao Lin monastry has some back to future machine? :D

--------------------------------
PS. hey guys and gals, i like to joke around and tease once a while.
however, these theta stuffs is not a fun stuffs to play around, it is similar to the esoteric Buddhism teaching or Kundalini yoga. It is ok to know about it but to get serious about it we need experience teacher. So, be real carefull. it is an alter state stuffs.I love to explore into high tech to see if there is a way of synthesis on ancient wisdom. But, i can be real wrong. so, take what i say as fun. don't take it too serious....

great power comes with great responsibility. great energy comes with handling with care. I don't hope to see our wcner turn into spider man/woman or green demon.

if you ask me my opinion about SLT and conscious .... I say yes. The begining of SLT practice, one needs to "collect the Yee to meet the spirit" as it was said. whatever that means.....

[Phenix]

In Theta, Space time and pre arrangement doesn't exist.....
It is just as it is... keep flowing....

[yuanfen]

Thanks Hendrik- good sites.
The difference between the Vedanta and the Buddhist approaches as you know is over the unnecessary inferences of the self. Energy is just energy- ultimately does not need a name.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Thanks Hendrik- good sites.
The difference between the Vedanta and the Buddhist approaches as you know is over the unnecessary inferences of the self. Energy is just energy- ultimately does not need a name.

Yup. agree.

However, as a human, we sometimes trying to achieve does not need a name with OUR BIG NAME. Then we stuck.

[foolinthedeck]

tjd said

try giving your whole attention to siu lim tau
jabb said
QUOTE]Everytime you concentrate on something, you develope your consiousness[/QUOTE]

my experience is not of attention, like i've said before intent or attention tends to give a tense mind. i prefer taoist non striving.

rather than offering advice, does anyone have related experiences to share? we are all individuals. it makes sense that some of us will experience something and others something else.

[dbulmer]

I try to think more in terms of making someone else lose consciousness :)

Then I get to thinking about the forms practice , the Lat Sao, a little sparring and how my training partner is so much better than me :)

In all seriousness I mean no disrespect at all but is it healthy to dwell on such matters when you could be training because the training in itself heightens your consciousness?

[kj]

Hi foolinthedeck,


Originally posted by foolinthedeck
does anyone have related experiences to share? we are all individuals. it makes sense that some of us will experience something and others something else.

I remember learning to type on heavy, old, manual typewriters when I was young. I had to concentrate very hard to find and remember the location of each new letter on the keyboard. The keys were so heavy when my small fingers tried to press hard enough and fast enough to impress the carbon clearly on the paper, I would often get cramps in my hands. Keys near my pinky fingers were the hardest of all to press; it was often difficult to compress them at all, let alone with sufficient energy to produce a readable character.

After I learned to type the first few letters, I didn't have to think about those quite as much anymore. I had learned more easily where they were, and how to best position my hands and fingers to find those keys. But I was equally focused and distracted by learning the new letter and number keys, as I was by the first.

Over time my performance increased. We were required to do periodic timing drills, trying to type a given section of text as fast and as accurately as we could. The number of characters we typed were normalized by division into standard sized "words" yielding our average number of words per minute. The errors were also counted.

I was amazed on the day I clocked 60 words per minute. And later, one extraordinary day on an electric typewriter, 90 wpm with only 1 error. My fingers had found the keys without my conscious thought, and my small hands and arms had found the way to hold themselves over the heavy and complicated keyboards to hit the keys efficiently without cramps or pain. My fingers simply flew and alighted where they needed to go.

Today I can still type reasonably well. I have not maintained that same rigor in my training, though I have fortunately maintained much of my speed. I do, however, practice and apply my skill regularly. (Case in point.) I have, unfortunately, become a bit sloppy - I tend to type a bit "too fast" and also allow my attention to wander, and sometimes become distracted by other things. I don't always use the prescribed position for sitting and holding my hands. Sometimes I even place the keyboard in my unsteady lap. Fortunately I compensate reasonably well for my own errors through skillful use of the backspace key. (If only life had a backspace key, LOL.)

Oddly enough, typing has become such a natural and subconscious activity, that were you to ask me where any given key resides on the keyboard, I'd have difficulty telling you without looking directly at the keyboard, or going through motions with my fingers to mentally locate it. My fingers just do what they need to do, allowing my awareness to be on something else, or even on nothing in particular.

IME, this is very much like my experience in training the sets. I don't want to be fettered with concern about one particular movement, or about this or that position. I want to allow my awareness to remain open to everything at once, but focused on nothing in particular, within and without. But I cannot get to that stage without first going through the work of focusing on one error here, another there, explicitly and carefully correcting each part of me that is too stubborn or too uncomfortable to properly and naturally achieve or maintain its proper positioning, state or movement.

There are many distractions during practice of the sets. Some from within my own body, such as when it cries for relief from a long slow first set. And there are other distractions surrounding and within me. What is the person next to me doing? Who is coming in the door late? What is that loud noise I hear outside the window? Darn, my shoulder just raised and my arm tensed; fix that. Did I remember to let the dog out before I rushed to class? When will I ever learn to do this right and without thinking about every little thing?

Over time it becomes easier to remain aware and unfocused, but always a challenge. And as I conquer one challenge, new ones awaits me. It's an endless process.

FWIW, I am familiar with Ralston's book. It's "okay." I especially enjoyed food for thought and some helpful experimentation from his descriptions. He offered some great imagery. As I moved through the book though, it became more ethereal rather than less so, somewhat redundant in parts, and failed to fully hold my attention. While I liked the book, I was distinctly left wanting for more substance. I made my usual margin notes and highlights for reference, though will likely never do a full reread. Admittedly, his chosen subject surrounds such personal experience, that it is necessarily a challenging subject to write about. Others MMV.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[TjD]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
rather than offering advice, does anyone have related experiences to share?


i'm paying attention right now

[wingchunalex]

sure. I think wing chun training can effect consciousness. all martial arts should eventually be for self betterment, and not just a way of beating people up if needed. the focus, relaxation, self discipline, etc all play into that. i don't think wing chun training alone would have the same effect as tai chi or practing sitting meditation. but some effect is evident i think.

[wingchunalex]

oh yeah, i forgot this. i have a book on mental training in the martial arts by a wing chun guy. its a pretty good book, talks about relaxation and visualization and stuff like that.

[foolinthedeck]

thanks kathy jo, that was a great reply - a nice insight and metaphor.
much respect /@

fool

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
thanks kathy jo, that was a great reply - a nice insight and metaphor.
much respect /@

fool
KJ can also vouch that my sigung Ken Chung hypnotizes his opponents. :D :D :D

[kj]

Originally posted by John Weiland

KJ can also vouch that my sigung Ken Chung hypnotizes his opponents. :D :D :D

LOL, hypnotizes like a scorpion ... by paralyzing.
- kj

[John Weiland]

Here's a little ditty I find soothing and use to meditate. :)

Time to Bomb Saddam (http://www.funforwards.com/flash/september02/saddam.swf)

[anerlich]

LOL. Let see if the Shao Lin monastry has some back to future machine?

It's been done. There was a HK movie with Yuen Biao and Maggie Cheung which explored this very subject - can't remember the name. Yuen chases a Ching bad guy into the future (20th century)via this Shaolin time machine, where he meets up with Maggie Cheung who is working as a woman of easy virtue. The plot's more like Terminator than Back to the Future, I guess.

If it were true, perhaps he could expose for what it is some of the frightful and unsubstantiated rubbish being spouted about Shaolin KF and WC on this forum.

"The Power of Now" by Eckhardt Tolle (sp?) is IMO quite a good discussion of this subject untainted by religious and cultural overtones.

IMO the literature of WC is pretty pathetic when it comes to optimum psychophysical states for combat. Scott Sonnon's material on the Flow State Performance Spiral (rmax.tv) is IMHO pretty close to the mark.

[[Censored]]

It's been done. There was a HK movie with Yuen Biao and Maggie Cheung which explored this very subject - can't remember the name. Yuen chases a Ching bad guy into the future (20th century)via this Shaolin time machine, where he meets up with Maggie Cheung who is working as a woman of easy virtue

That's easy: "The Iceman Cometh". It had a few good scenes.

[anerlich]

Yeah, that's it! The Iceman!

[foolinthedeck]

anerlich...
whats that got to do with the thread? did u get so many posts by being so random?

[anerlich]

whats that got to do with the thread?

Hendrik raised the subject of time machines, I ran with it.

My references to the Tolle book and the Sonnon material are IMO right on topic.

I must have missed the post appointing you moderator and thread policeperson.


did u get so many posts by being so random?

Sticks and stones may break my bones....