Wing Chun kicks

[Chen Zen]

Why does Wing Chun have kicks that are only below the waist? I have studied TKD and have benifited from high kicks, and feel that they work well with Wing Chun.

[TjD]

if your going to hit someone in the knee, do you bend over to punch them there?


i dont think wing chun mechanics lend themselves very well to most high kicks. a wing chun punch will do the job just as effectively and much quicker. however, wing chun does have a high kick or two that do work well with its mechanics (at least in my lineage).

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
I have studied TKD and have benifited from high kicks, and feel that they work well with Wing Chun. Hey Chen Zen, I too have studied TKD for 6 years, and know that they will not work in most situations. I will refer to this clip for some nice visuals of why you will cut to pieces trying those kicks. http://www.bullshido.us/videos/muaythai_vs_tkd.mpeg Even when I trained in TKD , I rarely kicked high. In my experience, I was able to trap, block or counter higher kicks relatively easily (although I was often reprimanded for using "illegal" techniques). They tend to be too slow, and leave you exposed in many ways. They will NOT work well with Wing Chun, IMO. They will not work well for most martial artists either, unless you're fighting in a TKD tournament where everyone else in hopping around and make the same errors. They look really good in movies and demos, but are highly impractical.

Your results may vary,

Matrix

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Matrix
I will refer to this clip for some nice visuals of why you will cut to pieces trying those kicks. http://www.bullshido.us/videos/muaythai_vs_tkd.mpeg

Hi Matrix,

Thanks for the clip. Good comments.

Regards,

[Atleastimnotyou]

Matrix is correct.

[Phenix]

I would say the guy in the clip is lucky that he was not encounter kick/knee/elbow combination.....


IMHO, it is always dangerous to stand there raise one's leg or doing single long range kick before any good angle....

double Low inside our outside round horse kicks, or the grapper shoot will have lots of chance to take one down.... just my 2 cents.

[anerlich]

if your going to hit someone in the knee, do you bend over to punch them there?

No but if you change levels properly you can pull a sweet low single.

[EnterTheWhip]

The kick itself does not go much higher than the waist of the kicker, but the target can be above the opponent's waist.

[davethedragon]

i havent had a chance to look at the clip yet as my computer is still downloading it, but i know that in my class (vingtsun)we used to go by the principle that the upper body is used to hit the upper body and lower body for the lower body(shortest distance)lower kicks are a lot harder to stop or dodge and can do more damage in my experience and i personally find high round kicks especially easy to counter by simple distance shortening and chain punching.
having said that though i have met some tkd people that an kick very hard and fast but if you get to them first it negates that power.(but when they get you it can bloody hurt!!):D

[Matrix]

Originally posted by davethedragon
having said that though i have met some tkd people that an kick very hard and fast but if you get to them first it negates that power.(but when they get you it can bloody hurt!!):D Dave, There is no doubt about that. These kicks can really do some damage if they land, and the practitioner is skilled. I did not mean to infer otherwise. However, as fast as they are, they travel a long distance to the target, and you can negate their effectiveness by moving inside the range of the kick. Try it, you'll see, and it will be easy to take them out when they are trying to recover their balance.

I think TKD is powerful for a small percentage of students. They rely too much on strength and speed for most people. Most TKD black belts are not effective, but that's my opinion based on my own experience.

Matrix

[iblis73]

Its been my experience that even using kicks to the stomach /groin against a fast moving athlete can be almost as dangerous. Try kicking against a boxer or football player-you may get in, but they may well knock you flat as well. Of course there are many factors, but if the dude is bigger and/or more athletic be careful. Personally I like a low stomp to the shin (a la Kelly McCann's type combtives.) High probabiliy of working along with good effect. Also better chances of recovering if it fails.

Speaking of which, does anyone practice "recovering"-purposely missing or having a drill where you miss your kick and have to recover?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by iblis73
Speaking of which, does anyone practice "recovering"-purposely missing or having a drill where you miss your kick and have to recover? The kick done properly requires no recovery, even when missing the target. Comes down to balance, alignment, and distance.

[pseudoswitch]

Isn't there a Wing Chun proverb that says "A kick never misses"?? This implies, at least for higher kicks, the opponent must be wide open or unbalanced before you attempt a kick. Low shots to the knees and shins are probably appropriate at other times. I certainly wouldn't attempt a mid-level kick unless i had an advantage at that particular instant.

[Chen Zen]

Well I have been successful with my TKD kicks. The man I am learning Wing Chun from studied for two years under Augustine Fong and he has an extremely hard time getting close enough to hit me because of my kicks. And he certaintly isnt blocking all of them. Every now and then he does get in and when he does I have to resort to Muay Thai tactics such as elbows and knees since my wing chun isnt as good as his. Also I have found that if I use a lot of low kicks such as Muay Thai roundhouse to the legs or stomp kicks to the shins that after a few of these it becomes increasingly easy to fake these the hit with a high kick. I understand the economy of motion principle but also since my legs are longer and stronger than my arms it makes since for me to keep the opponent as far away as i can with my kicks.

[teazer]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
The man I am learning Wing Chun from studied for two years under Augustine Fong and he has an extremely hard time getting close enough to hit me because of my kicks

Out of curiosity, does he have any other experience other than those two years learning wing chun?

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen- two years? Regularly?
He cant get past your kicks?
Who is he.?

[RichWolf NYC]

That TKD guy in the posted video http://www.bullshido.us/videos/muaythai_vs_tkd.mpeg was not a good representation of TKD at all! He was really slow and uncreative! The video is good more for Muay Thai propaganda than fact!

Most Tae Kwon Do styles focus mainly on legs, which they use at greater distances than Thai boxers, so yeah, they'd use their legs only against just about anything and try to keep their opponent at an effective kicking distance. Once that distance closes, they need to re-OPEN the gap, not bridge it as Wing Chun practitioners do, so you'd see a TKD practitioner jumping backward when advanced upon quickly, often while simultaneously kicking.

In practice, most TKD schools do point fighting ONLY, not full contact continuous fighting, so every time a blow lands, the action stops and resets like a play in an NFL football game.

I'm a jack-of-all-trades who's practiced Wing Chun for a year. To corroborate my theory, I spoke to a co-worker who's a TKD instructor about it all and he agreed. His guys are training to use their art AS A SPORT, to be in the Olympics someday, not as a real situation-applicable martial art, and there are many rules (like no grappling) to follow, so you CAN'T compare it as many of you are trying to! For all the rules they need to follow in their competitions, there is no better art than the TKD they practice, as the rules were BUILT around their art!

To better illustrate, try rolling with someone from another martial art! There's no way they'd be good at it since rolling's not done in anything but Wing Chun!

Wing Chun trains it's practitioners to fight in different real-life situations with no rules, not to win contests with many rules.

What I'd really like to see are videos with really good practitioners of the various arts ONLY for: Wing Chun vs. Krav Maga, Wing Chun vs. Muay Thai and Wing Chun vs. Gracie Ju Jitsu. Anyone have any footage or links they can send me for that? Thanks very much in advance!

[Chen Zen]

Yes two years regularly under Augusine Fomg. His name is Brandon Carlisle. I don't think he has any other experience but I am teaching him TKD kicks while he teaches me Wing Chun. Id almost agree with you rich wolf but i have been to 3 different TKD schools. @ were sport schools and had the one step and three step sparring. The good TKD school I went to was Moo Duk Kwan Tkd and taught grappling, joint manipulation, finger strikes, knee and elbows as well as western boxing. A great school in Cincinnati, Ohio. Because of schools like these street effective TKD does exist. All be it not that much since the sport aspec has taken it over but its still there. Im not the best kicker but I can throw 5-6 hit kick combos with one leg before touching the ground but my goal is to be able to do it non stop as long as i like. My thinking goes like this " If they aren't expecting it then wont it hit them?" If they dont think I will kick them in the face and i throw a side kick to the face wouldnt it hit? This refers to real life situations and not sparring or sport. The average man has no training and isnt going to know how to respond to that.

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen- the name is not familiar. May know him by sight.

[Chen Zen]

He said the training was in Arizona but I dont remember if it was Tucson or Pheonix. He is about six foot black hair about 21 but probably younger then he also had a receding hair line.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by RichWolf NYC
Most Tae Kwon Do styles focus mainly on legs, which they use at greater distances than Thai boxers, so yeah, they'd use their legs only against just about anything and try to keep their opponent at an effective kicking distance. While the video may not have been the best example of TKD, the range of TKD is no match for a the power of Muay Thai, IME. Yes, they will try to keep you outside with their kicks, that's why you come inside. ;)

The fact that you say you can't compare for reason "x" and "y" is non-sequitor. Even those who train olympic-style still believe that their sport is effective for self-defence. The rules lead them to believe that what they do is effective, because they only spare with others who follow those same rules. TKD is built on a weak premise, therefore it fails. Even the "self-defence" stuff is weak.

Once again, your mileage may vary.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
Yes two years regularly under Augusine Fomg. ......I don't think he has any other experience but I am teaching him TKD kicks while he teaches me Wing Chun. Chen Zen, the issues discussed in other threads have become crystal clear. No disrespect to this guy, but in my estimation, you need a real sifu.



Originally posted by Chen Zen
The average man has no training and isnt going to know how to respond to that. To paraphrase a quote from KenWingJitsu ......Denile, it's not just a river in Egypt. :rolleyes:

Matrix

[Chen Zen]

Why is that Matrix? Is it because you percieve his Wing Chun As weak or Tkd as Weak? What if maybe my TKD is just good? I believe that if you are good with your feet then it is hard for someone of any style to get in close.

[Chen Zen]

I just watched the video and I must say that this guy was one of the worst representations of TKD I have ever seen. First he had no block skills, he attacked with the lead leg first which is always a no no. Also spinning techniques are to be used only after a stunning opening and are risky then. He didnt attack when the guy came forward which is something you should always do instead of just retreating all the time. Even when backing up you can attack and he did not try this once. Where were the hand strikes? Or blocking? Or counter attacks? This guy wasnt just a weak TKD practitioner but a weak fighter who obviously had no concept of effective fighting and probably had a poor teacher.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
The average man has no training and isnt going to know how to respond to that. I have always learned that one must train to fight the master, not the average guy.

But we all have our standards...

[davethedragon]

the TKD guy that i used to train used to fight on the Irish national team. his kicks are very good especially when they are low. i do think that the skill of the individual is more important than the style and a good tkd guy could beat a poor wc guy.or mauy thai guy for that matter.

I also agree that shortening distances is the best way to counter tkd kicks.
but i also believe that there are parts of every art that are good and bad(ijust havent found any in wingchun yet!):D :D :D

[davethedragon]

i should really check things before is ubmit them!!
what i meant say was that ia ve not found any bad points with wc yet!!!!

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
Why is that Matrix? Is it because you percieve his Wing Chun As weak or Tkd as Weak? What if maybe my TKD is just good? I believe that if you are good with your feet then it is hard for someone of any style to get in close. Chen Zen,
Two points. Somebody with two years experience has no right to be teaching - it's that simple.
As for your TKD being good, quite frankly I don't doubt that for one minute. I'm sure that you are good with your feet, that is why you fall back on to it when you spar. You are comfortable there. But mixing TKD kicks with Wing Chun is wrong in my opinion. They are diametrically opposing systems, and trying to mix and match will end up in a situation where two halves are less than the whole. It you want TKD, more power to you. Train TKD. You will not be satisifed with your current path. That's one persons point of view.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by davethedragon
i do think that the skill of the individual is more important than the style and a good tkd guy could beat a poor wc guy.or mauy thai guy for that matter. This is true .......to a point. Some people are naturally skilled. They would probably effective in whatever art they chose. However, if the the system is fundametally flawed, your ability to fight will be limited by the structure of the system that you train in. You can be a superior carpenter, but if you have poor quality tools it will be reflected in your work.

Yes, a superior TKD player could beat a weak MT or WC guy. That's not the point. The point is that WC is a a superior system that will allow more practitioners to be highly effective that TKD will. I'm speaking from my own perspective with experience in both the arts in question. That doesn't make me right, but I think I know what I'm talkiing about. Of course, I am open to suggestion.

Matrix

[Chen Zen]

Mr. Matrix you seem to have a great dislike for TKD. You say dont train both but you did. I understand thay they are two complete opposites but I dont think you could call either superior. They are both great and weak in there own rights. While Wing Chun has probably the best hand techniques I have ever seen, TKD is known to have the best kicks. Why not have the best of both worlds? While they are opposites: opposites quite often compliment each other in nature. Why would it be different now? Also I do not mean any disrespect to your opinion I am just trying to give you another way to look. -Chen Zen

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen- wing chun has lots of kicks. Beginners generally dont know them- because developing a sound structure is important in wing chun.

Wing chun is not a fast food place.

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen- wing chun has lots of kicks. Beginners generally dont know them- because developing a sound structure is important in wing chun.

Wing chun is not a fast food place or a menu..

[[Censored]]

TKD is a powerful, ancient art, created to kick people off horses. It was a important component of the original, sweet Shaolin Wing Chun. However, this devastating spin-kick knowledge was suppressed by the evil Ching Dynasty, to prevent Shaolin from totally flipping out and killing everyone!

Yip Man rediscovered the 4th form of Wing Chun, that contains the real ultimate power of the spin-kick. But he only taught this form to his most favorite student: __???__.

[Chen Zen]

While i know that wing chun contains kicks are they not mostly below the belt? Kick for kick I think TKD has Wing Chun beat. TKD is known the world over to have the best kicking techniques.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
While i know that wing chun contains kicks are they not mostly below the belt? Kick for kick I think TKD has Wing Chun beat. TKD is known the world over to have the best kicking techniques.

whatever best means. Better kicking techniques mean nothing without a good delivery system, and when you start to figure out a better delivery system (let's say.. WC) then you won't want to kick that much anymore.

[yuanfen]

We have a grappling mess going and I dont want to negin a kicking debate. But FWIW- TKD kicks are not better than wc kicks.
Your friend may not be advanced enough to show tem effectively.
But you are entitled to your opinion- Cheers.

[yuanfen]

We have a grappling mess going and I dont want to negin a kicking debate. But FWIW- TKD kicks are not better than wc kicks.
Your friend may not be advanced enough to show tem effectively.
But you are entitled to your opinion- Cheers.

BTW- Yip Man was known for his kicking ability- as he gew older- he kicked less- didnt have to...

[Chen Zen]

It is the opinion of the majority of the martial arts world that TKD has superior kicks to any style. Why should it not as this is its primary weapon? As for not kicking or kicking less well I want to use every weapon available. Why limit myself to just hand techniques? Thats like learning how to wrestle but never knowing how to do a headlock. It doesn't make sense. In a real situation any weapon you have is your best friend. If I can kick you in the face thats better for me. My legs are stronger than my arms, longer, and less likely to be damaged by the impact of attack. You see I have traveled all over the country just about and of all the friends I made who were trained the one who stood out the most and posed the biggest threat while sparring was My Wing Chun instructor. But like most people he has no real experience with kicks and the science involved and was therefore unprepared for an attack of this type. I am an exceptional kicker I think and I know I am well above the average kicking joe. But I attribute this to nothing more than an open mind about them and a willingness to practice them and try to perfect them. Due to that I can do things most guys cant, but I still think that the average joe could put these into use with the proper training.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
You say dont train both but you did. Yes, I guess we've all done things in life that we regret later.

I understand thay they are two complete opposites but I dont think you could call either superior. I can, and do. Note that I have said "based on my experience", I consider Wing Chun to be superior. If thought for one second that TKD was better, I would never have left.

They are both great and weak in there own rights. I would say that as a system, TKD is weaker. Again it's one man's perspective. That's why I always say, your mileage may vary.

Also I do not mean any disrespect to your opinion I am just trying to give you another way to look. Don't think that I don't sincerely appreciate that. Likewise, I mean no disrespect to you. The fact that you are learning Wing Chun from someone who has only two years of training makes me seriously question the quality of instruction that you are receiving. I think if you were to train with someone more qualified then you would see my point. Then again, maybe not. :)

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
It is the opinion of the majority of the martial arts world that TKD has superior kicks to any style. Really? Where is the data for this majority of martial arts? If they think this is so, then why don't they adopt those kicks within their own system?

Why limit myself to just hand techniques? I don't believe that limitation was suggested that you "limit" yourself to hand techniques.
In a real situation any weapon you have is your best friend. No, any weapon is any friend, the best weapon is your best friend.
If I can kick you in the face thats better for me. Sure, and you may win the Lottery as well. Good luck. ;)
My legs are stronger than my arms, longer, and less likely to be damaged by the impact of attack. Yes, but in order to kick my head they have a much longer way to travel, and physical strength does not always translate into real power. If you miss, you will be hung out to dry, standing on one leg. If you hit me, it better be very good, because I'm coming in.
But like most people he has no real experience with kicks and the science involved and was therefore unprepared for an attack of this type. I don't think that is true of most of the people around here. It is certainly not representitive of my experience.
I am an exceptional kicker I think and I know I am well above the average kicking joe. ........ Due to that I can do things most guys cant, but I still think that the average joe could put these into use with the proper training. It's certainly a point of view that I don't share, with respect to the average joe. If you are "exceptional" then by definition most others will not be able to come up to your standard. Obviously, it's a free world, so I wish you the best on your journey. I just hope that you don't run into above-average joe or josephine. ;)

Matrix

[Block]

I have to agree with Matrix here.

Chen Zen:
I have been training in WC for 3 years and although I teach beginners there is no way I think I'm qualified to teach people the WC art.

This is why I have doubts about you learning form an instructor who has only learnt WC for 2 years. IMO if he had learnt WC for 5-10 years he'd know that he wouldn't need to learn TKD.

As a side note my instructor has learnt Wing Chun for more than 40 years.

TKD is definitely a very good kicking art but there in lies the fundamental problem. Kicks will lose you the fight 9 times out of 10. Kicks, although strong, are easy to see and counter. The body movement need to execute a kick especially in TKD telegraphs the movement and it is at this point a good fighter counters.

I know you'll probably disagree with me on the previous point having had your own vast success with your kicks but given equal skill the non kicker usually wins.

Generally WC students don't learn kicking until their second or third year of training. Which is another reason for you instructors lack of ability to counter your kicking.

One of the main WC principles is safety. Which means that your own safety is paramount when executing a technique. When kicking above the waist you lose structure and leave yourself open for an easy counter attack, even if you are very fast.

This is why WC doesn't kick above the waist and generally doesn't kick unless they are in an advantageous position (usually having hold of the opponent). I can guarantee you that WC has incredibly powerful kicks. They may not look fancy like TKD kicks but taught and trained properly they are awesome.

Also WC kicks are known as shadowless kicks. This is to say that the kick is not telegraphed in anyway. When kicking, the upper body stays motionless. If this sounds a bit mystifying to you then I suggest you find a good Sifu who will show you what I mean.

TKD and WC are opposite in the way they teach you to fight. It may seem sensible to combine the two to get a great long range and short range fighting system but the truth is that it just wouldn't work.

If you are able to find a good sifu and can take the time to learn WC properly you will see what I mean. WC is an art of principles, as opposed to TKD which is a technique based art. You can't combine the two because most TKD techniques break WC principles.

I, like Matrix, have no doubt that you are a very good kicker but WC is an exceptional combat system and has numerous excellent defences against kicks.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
While i know that wing chun contains kicks are they not mostly below the belt?

True. The target area for hand techniques are the head and the body; while the target area for kicks is the area below the belt.


Kick for kick I think TKD has Wing Chun beat.

If a WC guy fights a TKD guy using only kicks, then the TKD guy has the advantage. It would be foolish for the WC guy to play the TKD guy's game. He who plays his own game is most likely to be victorious.


TKD is known the world over to have the best kicking techniques.

It is a matter of opinion. Opinions vary from person to person.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
Kick for kick I think TKD has Wing Chun beat. TKD is known the world over to have the best kicking techniques. Coca Cola is known for making the best cola. Does that mean Coca Cola is good for you?

TKD = Coca Cola
WC = water

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
I am an exceptional kicker I think and I know I am well above the average kicking joe. Most TKD-ers think this way....

[EvolvingPower]

I noticed an essential point that was only hinted at and not stressed.

TKD is a long range (kick range) art. The training emphasises this range. Not the close range... thus the much needed muay thai elbows and knees.

Wing Chun structure is exceptional at punching, trapping range and can kick at this range (for extra power) with the so called Shadow or Glass techniques (invisible, zero perception attacks). Also it stresses defense at the same time as offense which cannot be done with most TKD kicks.

Wing Chun also specialises in closing the gap immediately to close range where it's most effective. That is the main use of kicks in free sparring, to close the gap, inflict some damage and neutralize functional kicking ability. Now we're ready to punch, elbow, etc.

So there are te techniques and the tactics of each art to consider. Also the philosophy and training methods of each system.

If you want to kick butt, then train in TKD. If you want to destroy your opposition and while stressing your safety, train Wing Chun. LOL.

Seriously, what really matters is what every individual looks for in an individual martial art. If they get it, then keep training at it. If not, train something else. To me, Wing Chun is the superior art in training me in what I want. TKD training didn't cut it FOR ME. PERSONALLY.

If you want to know MY criteria for this desicion, just ask.

Yet before you ask me, write in a piede of paper why it is so to you. You'll appreciate your art much better.

[Chen Zen]

Matrix, I gotta say I love your posts. I enjoy someone who can put there opinion out there without the usual "Im right your wrong cuz Im smarter than you" that you get from a lot of people. I think the reason that a lot of styles have not put these kicks in there arsenal is becuase most artist and especially teachers have the feeling that there style is complete and needs nothing else. I think these are also the people who reach a certain point in there training and never grow past that. I plan to sit in another Wing Chun class at a different school to see if the quality of my instruction is lacking. Let me ask this: Why is it that many WC artist also use Muay Thai? Many TKDist, such as myself< also use Muay Thai. On a purely technique based point of view I dont understand why these kicks wont work with WC. I know the principles are very different and that TKD breaks these but on a purely physical level Why not?

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen sez"
. I think the reason that a lot of styles have not put these kicks in there arsenal is becuase most artist and especially teachers have the feeling that there style is complete and needs nothing else. I think these are also the people who reach a certain point in there training and never grow past that. I plan to sit in another Wing Chun class at a different school to see if the quality of my instruction is lacking. Let me ask this: Why is it that many WC artist also use Muay Thai? Many TKDist, such as myself< also use Muay Thai.
------------------------------------------------------------------------No reflection on your wing chun teacher. I dont think that you have learned enough wing chun as of yet. Wing chun does not need TKD or muay thai kicks. Different structures and engines and linkages involved in those three styles.

[Chen Zen]

I know I have not learned enough WC but I notice a lot of WC artist learn this after they have studied WC for some time. I dont believe that anyone can ever say this style or that style doesnt need this or that. I feel every style has particular weaknesses and strengths and the only way to overcome these is to learn as much as you can of different styles. There are no perfect styles. No master was ever perfect since he is human so therefore his style is not perfect either. However if you learn all you can from everyone you can then you are going to be closer to perfection but you will never achieve this. Also i have to say unlike most artist i know WC artist and especially on this forum think that there are is the perfection. People on this site especially seem to have a closed mind about anything outside of their art. I think it is saddening really. This is one of the biggest reasons that people become stale in there training and do not progress. Bruce didnt stop with just WC and he was the greatest artist of all time. He was open to new ideas outside of what he new and that is why he was the greaest.

[yuanfen]

People on this site especially seem to have a closed mind about anything outside of their art. I think it is saddening really. This is one of the biggest reasons that people become stale in there training and do not progress. Bruce didnt stop with just WC and he was the greatest artist of all time. He was open to new ideas outside of what he new and that is why he was the greaest.
(Chen Zen)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Chen Zen- we apparently live in quite different universes.
Stale... do not progress? Your sample for any generalization appears to be quite limited. THE greatest problem in wc is having sustained access to good instruction.

Bruce Lee did a lot of things in bringing attention to kung fu.

His basic foundation was in wing chun but when he left HK for the US he was cutoff from further wing chun instruction. So he did what he could to improve himself. Greatest artst of all times?...methinks not.Best kung fu movie guy- perhaps. I still like him better than Jet Li or Jackie Chan. That's movies. But learn kung fu from, any of them? Naaah. Just as you aint gonna learn boxing by warching Bill Holden in "The Golden Boy". or play golf by watching Matt Damon.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
I know I have not learned enough WC but I notice a lot of WC artist learn this after they have studied WC for some time.

Yuanfen is being kind, and he is correct. There is no need to supplement Wing Chun with other arts. Sad that many who profess to study Wing Chun imagine this is necessary. In my humble opinion, there's no problem with those who study other arts or who practice Wing Chun and other arts for fun. Just don't say you do it because of some imagined deficiency. IMO, all perceived deficiencies are in the artist, not the art.


I dont believe that anyone can ever say this style or that style doesnt need this or that.

Yuanfen can and does say it. His vast experience of martial arts, more than 25 years of Wing Chun make him expert, and I don't use that term lightly.


I feel every style has particular weaknesses and strengths and the only way to overcome these is to learn as much as you can of different styles.

That's a common misconception. Actually, the truth is that those who really learn any martial art are the only ones who really know its weaknesses. Again, it's most often the artist, not the art which can be picked apart.


There are no perfect styles. No master was ever perfect since he is human so therefore his style is not perfect either.

Of course on a philosophical level, you may be correct, but the principles of Wing Chun are very advanced relative to other MAs.


People on this site especially seem to have a closed mind about anything outside of their art.

I don't find that to be the case among the Wing Chun proponents but rather of the MMA proponents who feel compelled to evangelize us. Most folks were not fortunate enough to have found good Wing Chun as their first art, and consequently have experienced the good, the bad, and TKD. :)


I think it is saddening really. This is one of the biggest reasons that people become stale in there training and do not progress.

I've been studying a while, am not stale, and continue to progress. I can see my path of study going forward for many years.


Bruce didnt stop with just WC and he was the greatest artist of all time. He was open to new ideas outside of what he new and that is why he was the greaest.
Did you know that Bruce Lee was 4-F (An American term meaning unfit for military service)? He came to the USA to preserve his citizenship and register for the draft in 1958. I don't know who the greatest martial artist is, but I know it wasn't him. :)

Regards,

[pseudoswitch]

Originally posted by Grendel

I don't know who the greatest martial artist is, but I know it wasn't him. :)



huh??? :eek: OH! Sacrilege...:p

[Block]

Chen Zen

I know how you feel. Most MAists out there today think the same way. There can't be one great art so why bother looking for it. Just take what you can from everyone and hope for the best.

I have three friends who are black belts in Karate and TKD and I can't even get them to attend a WC class. That in my opinion is closed minded.

WC is an interesting art when you get into it. It relies on general principles to guide the practitioner. These principles also guide the analysis of other arts by WC people.

We do look at other arts and then ask ourselves a few questions such as; can I achieve the same result more economically, effectively and more safely. If the answer is no then you add it to the art.

Getting back to finding the 'best' system. Most people won't take the time to look. Let's face it who can devote 10 years to every art to find out which one is best. But by asking yourself some questions you can narrow them.

This is why (and I'm not having a go at you or your art) TKD is dismissed by most WC people. The effects of most of the kicks can be achieved by other methods, more safely, more efficiently and in some cases faster.

It's true that most arts lack something and for Wing Chun it's generally ground fighting (depending on the lineage) but that's another argument.

I'll finish by saying that my instructor has been training since the 60's and in that time he has spent years overseas studying with the top people from various arts. He was a 5th Dan in Karate as well as learning various other arts

In the end he chose Wing Chun and am I grateful for it :)

But the point is he did take the time (decades infact) to look for the best and settled on Wing Chun. I for one am more willing to accept his view when he has opened his mind and trained in or look at most MAs.

But as someone else has said before, it comes down to finding a good instructor. 2 years of WC just doesn't cut it.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
I enjoy someone who can put there opinion out there without the usual "Im right your wrong cuz Im smarter than you" that you get from a lot of people. Thanks for that Chen Zen. I have learned over time that while we all see the world from our own perspective, that nobody has a lock on "the truth". We all have rules and ideas that we've picked up through experience that tend to filter and color how we see the world. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to be truly objective.
I think these are also the people who reach a certain point in there training and never grow past that. This is true, IMO, and it applies to many facets of life. Not just martial arts. We are creatures of habit, and tend to grow comfortable with our routines, even when we know that we may not be doing what is actually the best thing for us. We Human Beings are strange animals.
I plan to sit in another Wing Chun class at a different school to see if the quality of my instruction is lacking. Please do. I think that you'll see something quite different from what you've experienced to date.
On a purely technique based point of view I dont understand why these kicks wont work with WC. I know the principles are very different and that TKD breaks these but on a purely physical level Why not? They may "work" to a point. But it really depends on what you mean by "work". Sure in some situations these kicks will do some damage to your opponent. However, to really appreciate what Wing Chun can do for you, you have to move beyond what seems to work at the base level. It's not a question of what works, but more an issue of what works best in the context of an entire system. A system has interdependencies that make it difficult to replace component parts in an ad hoc manner.
Here are a few things that I see wrong with TKD-type kicks. If they are jumping or spinning kicks, you are highly vulnerable when you are spinning or in the air. You may not have been referring to these most blatant examples, but I had to make mention of them.
TKD kicks are good long-range weapons, however, if the opponent is inside of that range they are ineffective. You'll see TKD fighters throw a kick or two, maybe a punch and then retreat to get "out of range". The only problem is that you need to get back in again to make your next strike. A Wing Chun fighter will get inside a stay there. Sticking and hitting - constantly moving in - taking your balance away from you and striking at the same time. It's hard to use TKD kicks (long range) when I want to get inside.
Beyond that TKD kicks require to chamber your leg and retract it quickly to avoid be trapped. Wing Chun kicks are more like "attacking steps". You don't chamber your leg or retract, instead you move in, taking the ground you've covered. Additionally, when you kick high or use those body-torquing moves you compromise your structure. Wing Chun kicks are designed to respect the entire system.
Another point you mention is that the legs are stronger than arms. This is true, and Wing Chun takes advantage of this, but in a totally different way than TKD. We use our horse to deliver the power from the ground into our strikes. Arm strength is not an issue. The power comes from the ground through your horse and hips, using timing and stepping as the deliver mechanism for the strike. When it all clicks together, the power is awesome.
I'm not sure if I've made my points clearly, but I am a pathetic beginner in this art, trying to divest myself of the brute force methodologies of past lives. :)

Of course, others will have different perspectives. I may be totally off base here, but I've articulated my point of view as best I can at this stage of my development. Believe me when I say I did not come to this conclusion easily. I used to favor my old-style kicks as well. However, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

Matrix

[Chen Zen]

I can say that this or that style has a deficiency here or there because I have not accepted any style as "The Way" but simply "A way". People who think that there style is perfect take what master says as the gospel truth written in the stars above never to be changed. All styles started as an idea a hypothesis a guess. When theses creators died the guesses and ideas were made into a truth by the followers of this style, when all these styles ever were was a bunch of educated guesses and personal insights. Once you put your own influence on the truth it is no longer the truth; it has become a falsity. No deficiences in WC? Ok whats to say you are walking down the street with your groceries or your child in your arms and are attacked. Now that your arms are busy what options do you have. With a vast knowledge of other arts you can due a number of things such as (check spelling) tenkai from Aikido where you pivot on your feet to change body direction to evade, or you can kick TKD or Muay Thai style. You see a kick such as by WC to the belt or lower isnt going to knock someone out. A kick to the chin will or a knee strike to the face(Im tall so I can do it). Sure you can break a leg or ankle with a low kick but I find these easily dodgable. Now forget you have the baby or groceries. Lets say you hit someone in tha face and break a bone in your hand(Quite common). Now you are reduced to your one arm. While your opponent still has both arms and both feet. If he is inclined to kick towards your face that is now four things you must block at once. But if you knew how to throw a proper kick above waist level then you could keep him at away. Or what happens if you are taken to the ground? Or your one arm is locked in a wrist or shoulder lock? The knowledge of other arts and there techniques is valuable to a martial artist. Now as far as Bruce not being the best; yeah right. The man never ever lost a fight and even beyond his physical abilities he had a better grasp of himself and a far more open mind than most ever will.Learn Kung Fu from Bruce? No. Learn to fight, absolutely. Learn to look inside myself and trust my instincts? Sure. Learn to open my mind and look at things from all angles? Once again he is the man. You see Jackie and Jet and Bruce are all great for one reason above all else, they were able to look beyond there art to other arts and learn from them as well. Jackie for example knows shoalin animal styles, WC, drunken boxing and others. The ability to tie these together is what makes him a good and effective fighter. Not just Wing Chun. Not to mention the man does all his own stunts. But I have strayed off the point. The point is that since all styles are founded on ideas and hypothesis then there are bound to be flaws and while WC is advanced compared to other MA out there if you cannot find flaws in it then maybe you are letting your pride blind you from the truth. The reason arts such as JKD are constantly growing is because they know that to stay within the boundaries of one art leads to deficiencies. "At birth we are soft and yeilding. At death we are hard and stiff. All green plants are tender and yeilding. At death they are hard and brittle. When hard and rigid, we cosort with death. When soft and flexible we affirm greater life." "Those who know they do not know gain wisdom. Those who pretend they know remain ignorant.Those who acknowledge there weaknesses become strong. " "The Tao person , detached and wise, Embraces ALL as Tao" Lao Tzu author of the Tao.

[yuanfen]

Dear Chen Zen- This is not intended as a hostile letter in any way.
You are "learning" some wing chun froma person who has been in the art for two years. It is very nice of him to show you what he knows. But it is premature for you to diagnose the "weaknesses "
of wing chun on that basis.
Up to now- after years in wing chun, I find that the weakenesses are in the person including myself from time to time- not the art. And the principles of the art show or have shown me analytically what I can do to fill the gaps.
The movements of wing chun - things like bong and tan and fok
need a wing chun structure- to be effective. Learning them as techniques wont do- they can collapse on you. Good wing chun structure and dynamics take some time to develop.
Take kicks for instance---if you are doing tkd kicks- you are up on the ball of your foot a lot. Although in real life anything can happen...in training, wing chun avoids swivelling on the ball of the foot. Your friend may not be experienced enough yet. So I am not hard on him.Actually, a more experienced wing chun person can deflect kicks and attack at the same time- unless he/she is asleep at the wheel- a fault of the person- not the system.

What if scenarios susch as that you provide are problematic- because each situation is different- and wing chun is not set up to give mechanical responses. The nuamces of a situation can vary and can make great differences.. Thus in your example- it makes a big difference as to whether you have a groceries in your hand or a baby...they are nowhere near equal in importance. Wing chun works on clarity of mind under stress and adjusting to the situation. One can shove the groceries in the other guys face and your hands become free to attack. Witha baby- its more complex- depending on the arena---you can put the baby quickly down if the opportunity is there and fight. You can hold the baby with one hand and make evasive and controlling moves with the other-till other opportunities open up. If the baby has messed his diaper- you can rip it quickly and throw the **** at the attacker and gain time and space.
Many possibilities- again the devil is in the details.
The auto reflex system that wing chun develops is different from other systems- and doesnt come easy. So adding this style and that- retards the sharpening and development of wing chun 's
auto reflex system.
Dont get me wrong- good TKD is better than bad wing chun, good bjj is better than bad wing chun.
Actually, I always argue ---find the best martial arts teacher that you can find- even if it is (gasp) bjj, tkd, shotokan. etc.
Upto now anyway- whenever people have claimed a weakness in wing chun- It has been evident that they havent learned enough wing chun.
If one wants to write creative poetry in English- it's best to learn English well- same for other languages--- but little mixes of different languages can result in gibberish pretending to be poetry.

[Chen Zen]

Yaunfen, While I understand that his training is not complee and mine even less I wonder, and argue, Why cant a person choose to transition from this or that? Example In Jeet Kune Do You may use a Biu Gee finger strike, then a western boxing hook, then a judo throw and follow it up with a Jujutsu lock or choke. I dont see why this wouldnt be the same with WC. The ability to adapt from one style to the next due to the situation is surely a valuable asset. It isnt just with TKD but the ability to integrate all styles together. While I admit that WC is a very effective art, probably the most effective Ive seen, I dont see why things cant be added to it or at least incorporated with it. Such as earlier you said WC tries not to pivot on the balls of the feet. Would this not be affective to switch angles of attack rather than with than with a flat foot? It is things like this when I mention weaknesses. It may not be a weakness but that is why I ask, to find the truth and becuase until I know these answers it appears to be a weakness. In TKD I didnt at first see why they used the balls o their feet in roundhouse kicks as opposed to the instep or shin. When it was explained to me that the instep can only take so much force and that the ball is smaller and more penetrating I no longer saw it as a Weakness but a strength. I just want to learn and to see for myself through my own eyes and experiences hwat works for me and what doesnt. Thank you-respectfully, Chen Zen

[Guile]

Tsk Tsk, Bruce Lee bashing?
You guys are in trouble now!

[EvolvingPower]

The reason it's hard and/or not useful to blend other techniques into Wing Chun is that Wing Chun is the movement and manifestation of certain Principles and Structure applied to Combat.

Using other techniques usually departs from these principles. Some people fill their gaps with techniques instead of studying and analysing the principles of Wing Chun and filling their gaps with that knowledge and wisdom obtained.

That makes Wing Chun a very personal expresion of each practitioner. Not just a series of techniques handed down from generation to generation to be copied in the exact order.

As for Bruce Lee, he was a great practitioner, fighter and martial artist. He didn't finish his Wing Chun training (he didn't get the last part of the Dummy and Bil Jee), yet he applied the principles and found techniques that to HIM, made sound use of the principles of Wing Chun for combat.

Yet he departed from the structure as to be more forward moving (close the gap faster), aggressive and dodging and slipping. Just another aproach.

Anyway, I wonder why most special forces now principaly use the techniques and principles from Wing Chun in their hand to hand combat training instead of others? (before they used jujitsu and in other aspects used in a very nice korean art... not TKD nor TSD).

[pvwingchun]

Chen Zen

Anytime you search for a weakness either perceived or real you will find one. If you are searching for weakness in WC kicks "you " will find them. Based on Yin/Yang if there is a weakness there also has to be a strength. Why not look for the strength in the WC kick instead of continuing to find weakness or justify your use of TKD to supplement you WC. Also a big part of negating a weakness is realizing it and using that weakness to your advantage thereby making t a strength.



You see a kick such as by WC to the belt or lower isnt going to knock someone out. True, but if I destroy your knee with that low kick I have successfully stopped your attack and even a great kicker has trouble on one leg. Strength.


You see a kick such as by WC to the belt or lower isnt going to knock someone out. A kick to the chin will or a knee strike to the face(Im tall so I can do it). True, but once a good WC man realizes you are a kicker he closes the gap and doesn't allow that foot to even leave the ground or moves out of range until he can close the gap and negate your kicking power. Strength.


Sure you can break a leg or ankle with a low kick but I find these easily dodgable. True, but only if you see it coming. WC structure and being a close range combat art allows us to kick without telegraphing, my hands will be helping also to keep your eyes busy therefore you never see the kick that destroys your knee. Strength.

I have sparred with some very good TKD kickers and as long as I used there strength in kicking to my advantage I had no problem negating the kick.

Since you seem to admire Bruce Lee and his work I believe he was fond of saying "you must empty your cup to learn", or something along that line, some advice you could take in the learning and exploration of WC that may help you to see deeper into WC and past what you perceive as a weakness.

[Chen Zen]

He said "The usefulness of the cup remains in its emptiness." It comes from a Zen story. The story goes like this. A learned man sought out a Zen master to learn from. As the talks went on the learned man replied with statements such as "but what if" or "What about". Some time the throughout the talk the master asked the man if he would like some tea. The man said yes and the master poured until the cup was fulll and continued to pour while the tea overflowed. The learned man then said " You are spilling the tea" With which the master replied " How can you taste of my tea if your cup is not empty?" You said "Once a Wing Chun man realizes you are a kicker..." What if the WC man doesnt realize this until he has been kicked? Also I tend to use a lot of feints and footwork to keep the opponent from always knowing when I plan to kick. You make a good point but did Bruce himself not "empty his cup"? He emptied his cup of what he knew, Wing Chun, and then found other methods as well. I mean no disrespect to WC and its effectiveness is not lost on me. I simply want to see things from more than a WC point of view. While these other techniques stray from the principles of WC, WC principles are not the only ones out there and I think on a purely Physical point of view that these others could be integrated to work with the techniques of WC. Physically. I could come up with virtually thousands of ways WC could be used in conjunction with karate, TKD, Muay Thai and other arts. All effective and worth looking at. For example. Pak sao the opponents right arm with your left while simultaneously sending a Pak Da to the chin. (sorry for any spelling errors). While delivering the Pak Da the Pak sao now applies a wrist lock. Now you pull opponent towards you and deliver a rising knee strike Muay Thai style. To end it all you deliver a Karate style knifehand or Goju style backfist to the brainstem of the opponent knocking him unconcious. While some of this follows WC principle (attacking while blocking) I am sure that some of it probably does not, but does it make the outcome less effective? I dont think so, but this is why I am here, to learn and to maybe help others learn. If not to help them learn then to help them see things from another light. While I seek to empty my cup I seek to empty the cups of others as well.

[pvwingchun]

Several people have offered you insight into WC. Yet you continue to look for weakness in WC or an answer from TKD or another art. We have students like you where I train, who always seek to find the answer in other arts they are trained in. We also have a few who have trained in TKD, Judo and JJ who look for the answers in WC because they see the strengths of WC. IMHO the better student is the one who stays within the context of WC and its principles. If you want to mix and match that is your perogative just don't bring up perceived weaknesses of WC if you have not taken the time to study it in depth.

Example from a WC point of view.

You said "Once a Wing Chun man realizes you are a kicker..." What if the WC man doesnt realize this until he has been kicked? Also I tend to use a lot of feints and footwork to keep the opponent from always knowing when I plan to kick. Outside of being blindsided by a kick, your feints and footwork give you away as a kicker..... Once you start dancing around I will either stay out of range or move in and take the weapons effectiveness away. There are priciples which explain/govern this action. A good WC instructor could explain this to you.

I have sparred against TKD and the kicks were easy to negate using sound WC principles and techniques.

[Chen Zen]

I dont seek to find the weaknesses of Wing Chun. Instead I try to find areas it could be strengthened. I try to look at all possibilities. Even the extreme, Like what a WC artist would do if he had no arms. I am not trying to sway anyone's opinions or convert them to another art I simply want to look at things from more perspectives than "My art is superior and has no flaws" because I simply do not believe this is true of anything in this world. PV have you studied other than in WC? I ask becuase you say the better student is the one who stays in the principles of WC. Just as I should study more of WC perhaps you and others should open your mind to other arts. Believe it or not the other arts do have something to offer, if they did not everyone would do WC. Obviously if you are a kicker it is not something that is lost on your opponent. However if you stay out of kicking range then you cannot attack me unless you move in. Now if I learn the proper techniques of hand striking and blocking of WC then do I not have an advantage you do not since I can keep you away with kicks or use the WC when you come inside? I recognize the strengths of the little WC I have been taught and easily agree that it is a superior art to almost anything out there. I just dont see why it couldnt be better. There's always room for improvement and if you dont think so then maybe you should take a step outside of your art and give it an honest look. I mean no disrespect to your or your chosen art this is just the way i see things.

[vingtsunstudent]

chen zen
can i just ask, you do know that the difference from being in and out of kicking range is generally no more than half a step, a full step if there is some incredible hieght difference.
the longest kick in your arsenal is either a side or front kick that comes straight out from your waist, any higher than that and your foot is coming back closer to the body due to arch on which all kicks must travel.
the only longer ones might be jumping kicks but i don't see to much element of surprise in them, do you?
nearly all kicks can be easily dealt with by taking half a step towards your opponent, even if they are well versed at kicking you may where some of the impact(but you will generally have already past the most forceful part of the kick), but nothing compared to them as you get them off balance(due to the fact they are on only one leg) and rain down on them with heavy hands.
the other problem most kickers face is the control of their hands, esp. when kicking high. watch even the best kickers in a kickboxing match and you will see they have trouble with there hands and remember that these guys do this for a living.
the other thing we like to say in wing chun is why lift your foot 6 ft to someones head and waste all that energy and put yourself off balance and in possible harms way when your hands are probably only 2 ft away.
also these most fights will occur in crowded situations and very quickly which again renders the use off a lot of your kicking arsenal useless.
of course the re are exceptions to this, so please don't give me all the in betweens.
one last thing all wing chun does have head high kicks, we just generally knock them to the ground first and then kick them in the head.
vts

[pvwingchun]

one last thing all wing chun does have head high kicks, we just generally knock them to the ground first and then kick them in the head.:D :D

LOL

[Marky]

Hi Chen Zen,

"I ask becuase you say the better student is the one who stays in the principles of WC" CZ

Personally, I would amend the original phrase and say "the better student is the one who stays with the principles of his/her favorable martial art." For several years I was sparring with TKD friends of mine with black belts (with 8+ years of experience, next to my three years in WC), and doing significantly better than them. But a year ago I sparred with a TKD guy who thrashed me, simply because he was better at TKD than I was at WC, and he had made the art his own. Also, he was the ONLY TKD guy I've ever sparred with who practiced ONLY TKD, and took it seriously as a complete martial art. The others had spent a lot of time trying to "pick and choose" techniques and principles from other arts, though ultimately they had created their own weaknesses.

I'm not sure if this pertains to your situation, but I wanted to mention it anyway.

[Chen Zen]

Marky, the majaority of my training has been TKD. I have trained in it 13 years. The style of TKD that I swithched to after about 8 years of my training was Moo Duk Kwan which also incorporated Muay Thai. I see TKD as a complete martial art in the aspect that it deals with feet, hands, trapping, grappling, "in fighting" and a little ground fighting. But it still and does grow. Also I agree with your amendment on the statement. Bruce Lee said that no art is more important than the human being. VTS I understand the principle of economy in motion and your mention of it when comparing the distance from the hands and feet to the head. However my extensive training in kicking keeps me from disregarding this as a viable attack. While front kicks and side kicks are generally your longest kicks(Except jumping and spinning. neither seem to applicable in real fighting) there are also kicks that are able to be executed dashing forwards or backwards. So while a WC person may move in I may move back while attacking with the longer of the weapons. (MY legs compared to an arm) Also While the WC artist moves back out of range I may move forward while attacking as well. I think that the reason that a lot of the kickboxers and TKD artist you see on TV dont have good hand work is that they believe kicks to be efficient enough to rely on only them. I am not so blind. As for moving past the kick, you may well do so but there are always knees and low kicks to contend with and a good TKD artist will throw kicks combinations in an attempt to keep an opponent back and can also switch from one foot to the other while kicking so that someone coming in past the original kick may be caught with the other leg that they may not be focused on and if they are not caught then they at least have to move or block which brings the opportunity for the TKD artist to strike yet once again.

[pvwingchun]

CZ

As I said before, "Several people have offered you insight into WC. Yet you continue to look for weakness in WC or an answer from TKD or another art." You can play if this then that all day, if you want to test your theories go find an experienced WC practioner and test your theories then please let us know the outcome here. You say you have trained in TKD for 13 years find someone with 13 years of good solid WC experience not 2 and test your theories.

John

[vingtsunstudent]

again i don't mean to sound rude but if after only half that time in wing chun you can't deal with kicks like childs play then i would suggest you either haven't been training hard enough or your understanding of wing chun is not up to par.
chen zen, i know that you will have a hard time leaving 13 years experience behind but once you have seen the light and the reality of how easy all those attacks are that your talking about are to deal with, you will find that you won't be using them more than likely at all.
vts

[Chen Zen]

PVwingchun, You seem to have some sort of problem with the fact that i look at other arts and not just one. So be it. But the first chance I get I will take up your offer and let you know, but until then if WC is so much more superior then why cant a practitioner who was taught in private by Sifu Fong for two years almost two years ago (Practicing these two yrs after leaving Sifu Fong)do better than he did? He is of the same strength and stature as me and a little more athletic. Also his hands are much faster than my own and his punches more powerful. He has learned all three forms of Wing Chun so what is it? Is it that hard to believe that TKD is a viable art for self protection? Or is it that maybe you do not want to see what you consider a lesser art prevail over all that you call true and superior. I dont know what exactly your problem is but the fact remains that his training was good, taught by one of the best, and after learning for two years and practicing two more he couldn cut it.

[vingtsunstudent]

chen zen, i don't think he or anyone has a problem with you being open to more than one style it is however odd that you wish to know more about wing chun yet you seem to also wish to piont out the problem that you feel are inherant in a system you amdmit you know little about.
you ask for our response to questions and then try telling us how our logic on a system we know more about than you may be floored.
as to why he may have difficulty with your kicks, the fact that he trained for only two years may offer up some reason, maybe in that time he never got to practice enough against them, that doesn't mean that he won't soon see from his experience and knowledge of wing chun how to deal with them and make what he has learnt work for him.
also after 2 years without correction after having only been with a teacher for only 2 years it is also quite possible that he has developed some bad habits or he has just plain and simply forgot/not thought about what he is doing, the reasons as to his lack of understanding and dealing with your kicks could be endless, that doesn't mean that the next wing chun practitioner you meet, with possibly even only one years training, will not make you or your kicks look silly.
vts

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen- your position is turning into a bit of trolling.
I dont know the guy who you say has learned from Sifu Fong for two years and is now teaching you. I dont wish to embarrass him. Can you have him email me at <joy@azwingchun.com>.
His name is not on the list on the Fong site of certified or recognized instructors. And there is no one in your state (tennessee?) on that list. So his supposedly 2 year wing chun hands are faster than yours but your 13 year tkd legs are better than his- so what? If everything is as you say it is- it takes 13 years of kicking to keep a 2 yearold wing chun student at bay?
I dont know what kind of a student he was? As a person with some experience in teaching- I can tell you that in everyclass, there are A students, B C D and E students.
Why not have him participate on this list or atleast contact me.?

[Chen Zen]

"It doesnt mean a student with one year experience wont make your kicks look silly" as true as this is it is also true that if I were to face a more experienced WC artist and lose that TKD is non effective or a lesser art which seems to be what everyone is getting at. I am passionate about my kicks and the reason why is for one my kicks are far more skilled than my hands. Also on Two different occasions knowing how to kick saved my life. So you can see that they are something I do not plan to throw out of my arsenal anytme soon. The reason I ask these questions or try to floor your opinnions as you put it is not to uncover weaknesses or make WC seem weak to anyone. It is so I may learn. As a TKD artist I have not had much opposition to my kicks. That is to say there hasnt been a effective artist that I have had the opportunity to work with that did not have problems getting around these kicks. I have sparred various Karateka, BJJ artist, Muay Thai fighters, Ninjutsu artist, Praying mantis artist, other TKD artists, A WC artist, and plain out street fighters. The biggest problems I have faced during these matches were from the TKD guys. The good ones anyway. So when I ask these questions it is so that I may see what they were doing wrong, what I was doing right, and to look out for certain things so that I can better utilize my kicks.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
With a vast knowledge of other arts you can due a number of things such as (check spelling) tenkai from Aikido where you pivot on your feet to change body direction to evade, or you can kick TKD or Muay Thai style. Chen Zen, This is already included in Wing Chun. I can't comment as to what the souce is, but it's there my friend.

You see a kick such as by WC to the belt or lower isnt going to knock someone out. A kick to the chin will or a knee strike to the face(Im tall so I can do it). When you chop down a tree, do you throw your axe at the top of the tree? No, take out the trunk and the top will come down. I can knock someone out with my hands. Why compromise my base to reach up with my legs?

[Sure you can break a leg or ankle with a low kick but I find these easily dodgable. If you can easily dodge a low kick, it should be that much easier to dodge as you increase the distance the kick has to travel towards the head.

We can go into a series of what-if scenarios, and in the end we will not come to agreement, because there is an endless series of "suppose this happens or that happens". It becomes a circular agruement.

By the way, I am a big fan of Bruce Lee, regardless of what others say. So we certainly agree on this point.


The point is that since all styles are founded on ideas and hypothesis then there are bound to be flaws and while WC is advanced compared to other MA out there if you cannot find flaws in it then maybe you are letting your pride blind you from the truth. All systems, being constructed by humans, are bound to be flawed. We cannot create anything perfect. In my opinion, this has nothing to do with pride. If I find something better I will adopt it. However, you cannot simply add component pieces like Lego blocks, because they do not "necessarily" plug together correctly. I don't think you can take the fuel injection from a Toyota and plug it into a Porsche. Why would you try? The Porsche has been engineered as a complete system. A well tuned machine. Now, the engineering will evolve over time as new technology becomes available, but that is progression of growth that comes about slowly and naturely over time, not by force-fitting sub-systems. The system has evolved over time, and will continue to do so.

In any case, you can make it whatever you want it to be. Make it your own system, just be aware that it may not perform as expected. It will not really be WC, but that doesn't seem to be an issue for you. Regardless, I wish you the best.

Matrix

[Chen Zen]

Yuanfen I have awaited eagerly for your reply. I dont think it took thirteen years of kicking to keep him at bay. I think he was unnacustomed to having someone attack this way. He is not an instructor in the sense of having a school and students. He is just a friend of mine teaching me what he knows. There is a school here in memphis that the instructor was taught directly by William Cheung and as soon as I can I will be attending his class to determine if my instruction is as lacking as most say it must be. I do think that he obviously(my friend) isnt in a position to teach Wing Chun I asked him to do so anyway so that I may get even a small grasp of the concepts and techniques. I will ask him to contact you or contribute to the board. Matrix good to see your response on here again. While I wish to learn WC I do not plan to stick with just that. Eventually I want to create my own style and I already have five of the components I will compose this style of. They are WC, Brazilian JJ, TKD, Muay Thai and Jeet Kune Do so that I have a sytem that covers all ranges of attack. It may be great and it may be a failure and I am content with that possibility. I am sure the system will continue to grow and I hope one day that all sytems can find a way to become one great system. Until then I work on my own style, 3 of the components I have learned already, (notice I said learned not mastered) and practice them regurlarly. I am in the process of the fourth which is WC, and I am always looking for and learning new JKD concepts all the time. When you say it should be easy to dodge a high kick if it is easy to dodge a low kick. In theory you are correct but with a mixture of high kicks low kicks and feints it is a little harder than simply saying so. I value all of your opinions very much and acknowledge that you know well more than me in Kung Fu and I do not mean to offend anyone with my views; just as you wish to enlighten me in WC I wish to enlighten you in what I know so that everyone has a better understanding of the whole picture and not just peices of that picture.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
While I wish to learn WC I do not plan to stick with just that. Eventually I want to create my own style and I already have five of the components I will compose this style of. They are WC, Brazilian JJ, TKD, Muay Thai and Jeet Kune Do so that I have a sytem that covers all ranges of attack. It may be great and it may be a failure and I am content with that possibility. Chen Zen, Sincerely, I wish you a lot of luck with that. Ultimately we must trust our own instincts, because in the end we should always remain true to ourselves.

When you say it should be easy to dodge a high kick if it is easy to dodge a low kick. In theory you are correct but with a mixture of high kicks low kicks and feints it is a little harder than simply saying so. Of course. Now it becomes difficult to discuss, because we move into the endless what-if loop that I mentioned earlier. I will just say this, be careful with feints, a good WingChunner will not fall for that.

.... I do not mean to offend anyone with my views; just as you wish to enlighten me in WC I wish to enlighten you in what I know so that everyone has a better understanding of the whole picture and not just peices of that picture. Well I can say that I am not offended. This is not religion, and I am not looking to burn heretics. I just want to share ideas, rather than attempt to "enlighten" anyone. Thank goodness we all have the power to choose.

Take Care,

Matrix

[yuanfen]

Chen Zen- good luck with creating your own art.
I have no comment on your upcoming TWC investigation.
But I can tell you that Sifu Fong does not give private lessons
continuously for two years- period. Your friend may have "stood"
in a public class. But no one seems to recall him by name at least.
So all we have to date is some name dropping and your story.

[Chen Zen]

REALLY? :confused: Although he is a friend of mine he has not been a friend for long and may well be lying to me. I dont know but regardless i will go and look for further instruction because I will take your word when you say two years is not adequate time enough to teach. It is a testament to WC that in two years you are not qualified to teach. In other arts two years training time is enough time that you can teach a student to black belt.

[Chen Zen]

I also want to say thank you all for being patient with me. I think Matrix said it best when he said be true to yourself and trust your instincts. Also thank you for the well wishing on creating my own art. It has been a life long dream and a labor of love. Also thank you for the advice given by all and I will take from it what truly works for me and I will give all advice a fair chance before making that determination. :cool:

[Block]

Well Chen Zen it looks like your path is mapped out before you and we will not be welcoming you as a real WC practitioner any time soon (just kidding) :)

I also wish you the best of luck in your Bruce Lee like pursuit to develop an all encompassing art. I personally don't think Bruce Lee could do it but good luck anyway.

I just wanted to touch on an example you gave earlier about combing arts to good advantage. Your example is below:

>> Pak sao the opponents right arm with your left while simultaneously sending a Pak Da to the chin. (sorry for any spelling errors). While delivering the Pak Da the Pak sao now applies a wrist lock. Now you pull opponent towards you and deliver a rising knee strike Muay Thai style. To end it all you deliver a Karate style knifehand or Goju style backfist to the brainstem of the opponent knocking him unconcious. <<

I'll note first that this is going to be a very cumbersome discussion and it would be so much easier to do in real life. But anyhow.

First off I'm not too sure how you get the wrist lock if you Pak in the right spot, which is halfway between the wrist and elbow. But assuming that you Pak near the wrist (which has it's own dangers and breaks the WC principle of safety) then you have to bring your opponents army across your body in order to be able to pull them down and knee them (the rising knee is actually a WC kick too BTW).

If you then want to finish with a strike to the back of the neck then why not use a WC Fak Da (sp? - not fook which is the defensive hooking wrist) which is like a knife hand but has a straight trajectory and is more efficient.

I doubt I have made myself very clear as it's almost impossible to do so on the net. But the point I'm trying to make is that you can do things from other arts in the same situation but if you learn enough WC you'll start to see that WC has the answers too in ways that are faster, more efficient and safer. So why bother combining with other arts?

[Chen Zen]

Why combine other arts? Well I could answer this a number of ways. First I did not know that WC has a chop or knee strike so I learn something once again. The biggest reason to combine them are there is always more than one side to a story. More sides to the story equals a greater view of the story. Also the pursuit to learn. I want to learn so much that there is nothing left that I do not know. (Unachievable but if you have unachieveable goals then you always have something to work towards) Also right now the one thing I have noticed and has yet to be told to me otherwise is that WC has no groundfighting which is something everyone should learn. Also martial arts should be a reflection of your inner self. I cannot properly express myself thru the arts if I have a limited set of movements to use. The more I know the better I can express myself thru the arts. I think Bruce could have done it if he was not taken to a better place so soon in his life. As far as the pak its simply sliding the arm down as you push the arm down. So as I push your arm down my hand naturaly goes down and slides toward your wrist. This was just one example. Instead of the knee you could rotate behind them and send a elbow to the brain stem while breaking the elbow over your shoulder. The paths are endless.

[dbulmer]

Chen Zen,

Don't believe anyone who tells you low kicks are easy to deal with - they are not if they are performed correctly. The first thing you are aware of is a thud - as has been stated earlier you don't kick unless you have a clear unimpeded target and you go straight to the target - in many cases the foot is angled to increase the surface area of the striking foot.

In sparring you'll find that even the smallest amount of pressure on your body may be sufficient to unbalance you.The experienced guys will move in, disrupt your balance and are quite happy to jam your leg, throw you put a headlock on etc. or even chainpunch you.

BTW Rene Ritchie a contributor to this forum has written about Wing Chun kicks on his site - I am sure Rene can post a link if he's reading.

WC has a full arsenal of elbow and knee strikes. MT is skilled but so is WC - many a Wing Chun kick will severely damage your hip or knee rendering it very difficult for you to continue kicking.

Your notion of retreating in TKD is contrary to what most WC guys would do. Once a WC guy has got past your kicking range if he's skilled he won't let you move to another range-he'll be looking to find a gap to hit you - if you retreat he'll follow you but what he won't let you you do is regain momentum - he needs to keep you pressured. The beauty of WC is that there are relatively few hand or foot movements to learn but you have to be able to react to a change in pressure from the hand or foot instinctively and this is why it takes a long time to learn some of the intricacies of WC.


Where your previous training will be helpful is in fitness. We don;t have the same fitness levels generally. That is not to say that you won't find fit WC guys - just that for many WC is the lazy mans Kung Fu :) (And all WC guys should appreciate that line !)

Go and find yourself a qualified teacher - you'll be amazed at how subtle WC is and why WC guys love it so much .

[Chen Zen]

I agree that low kickis are hard to deal with, as a TKD artist I deal primarily with kicks and more so than the average MAist. So even though they are hard to deal with I think this past experience gives me a little edge. Lazy mans kung fu...thats a good one.:) I appreciate your input I think that if a WC person trains hard then maybe they would be more athletic. I do need to find a GOOD teacher soon. Any ideas on where to find one?

[dbulmer]

ChenZen,

You could post a question at this forum to start with.

Being athletic is not necessary for good Wing Chun - WC teaches you to conserve your energy and make use of your opponents - we have a lot of principles that we try to implement in our training. Perhaps the most important principle (as always everything is debatable) is that of relaxation. If there is one thing that WC teaches above all else it's that. For me relaxation comes from 2 things practice of our first form The Siu Lim Tao and sparring. It's the hardest thing in the world to relax when a few punches are coming in at you or a few kicks are headed your way but that's what the best WC guys can do - they'll calmly redirect your energy and then hit you.

The hardest battle WC guys face is with themselves - we strive to get the right hand or foot position or shoulder alignment while being relaxed and then your teacher comes to you and points out how although your positioning looks close you have tensed up. You look up in disbelief (and protest but I am not tense!) and then your teacher illustrates how tense you are and your sense of worth (ego) deflates. You look at the books and the videos (or post a forum question) and you go back to class (****ily thinking you've got it ) and weh hey the same thing happens again.

WC the lazy man's art - they lied ! It's the most addictive drug on the planet and you end up wanting more - so for me getting more physically active means I can do more Wing Chun for longer.

[Block]

Hi again Chen Zen,

I am one of these people who believes that Wing Chun is all I'll ever need to defend myself for my entire life. I don't have the time to learn more than one style, especially when I have to train so **** hard to master just this one :)

I've addressed ground fighting in the other thread but in summary Wing Chun has very advanced Fa Kum Na (anti-grappling) techniques which work incredibly well when standing.

However, Wing Chun doesn't have very advanced ground fighting techniques and this is where we are weakest. But that's not to say helpless (see the other thread for my case against WCers learning ground fighting)

But in the end good luck with your journey. I have no doubt that you will be a very formidable opponent with the vast experience you will gain.

[Chen Zen]

Thank you. It seems that I have a lot to learn about WC! Being totally relaxed is a concept that I have never used in combat so this is will take some time. How do WC spar if both are trying to remain relaxed while redirecting the others energy? Also I agree with the take on ground fighting. My first rule of ground fighting is not tolet it go tothe ground.:cool: Thank you all for being patient with the new guy.:D

[Matrix]

I think that relaxation is one of the tougher concepts to get used to in WIng Chun, especially if you've trained in other hard-styles for an extensive periods of time like you have. It seems to be somewhat counter-intuitive for many people.

Matrix

[Block]

A lot of WC schools don’t really spar.

The reason for this is that it teaches you bad habits. You learn to pull your punches, not target dangerous spots and that you'll always get a second chance. It becomes more of a game than the real killing art that it is meant to be.

There have been many classic cases of MAist who are top competition fighters that have been severely beaten on the streets. The one fight my Sifu told me about was an Australian champ who got into a fight in a bar and managed to land a lot of scoring hits but was trained so well at not putting in full power that his opponent took the hits and then dropped him with one punch.

So we don't spar in the sense that we face off and dance around each other throwing attacks. Instead we attack with a short series of strikes. It's easy to tell who lost because the loser is on the floor.

Why only a few strikes? Well, if on the street it takes any more than that then you are doing something other than WC.

With such short engagements it's pretty easy to maintain your relaxed state. However, don't let the idea of relaxation confuse you. Although we are relaxed during a conflict there is power in all or strikes. Just look to the first form to see what I mean about transferring from a relaxed state to a force emitting one.

[Chen Zen]

I have well experienced the power drawn in WC from the relaxed poitn. I spar full contact and always have but the difference is it doesnt "stop" after a fall but does reset if it is only one person on the ground.

[dbulmer]

Chen Zen,

"How do WC spar if both are trying to remain relaxed while redirecting the others energy? "

It takes a lot of practice and acquisition of skill. Sparring can be both hard and soft. By hard you might be wearing protective gear and training to hit hard at more or less full power. As Block says there are dangers associated with sparring regarding technique but pulling shots for me is not one of them. With hard sparring you want to hit pretty hard and you are training power in the punches and working on timing and looking for openings in defences. The other advantage is that you can try random haymaker punches, headbutts etc with less risk and improve your overall awareness and physical conditioning. It's also a great ego check!

By soft, you are essentially being less intense physically and you concentrate on being soft and relaxed and in total control. It's very difficult to redirect someone elses energy if you are tense. You have to be able to feel the direction of energy and then respond. When your arms are tense you simply cannot feel your opponents arm pressure.

The point that Yuanfen made earlier about having a good foundation and structure is very apt here. With the hard sparring you don't get to the real essence of Wing Chun - the real value of hard sparring is that you are under severe pressure and it shows up your limitations. The good WC guys are able to apply their softness at full speed and are in total control.

I like hard sparring but its only one aspect of training. Doing our forms and chi sao are vital elements too and I am certainly not advocating that sparring is the be all and all - it's an important check but the real hard work comes from drilling technique through drills and chi sao and meticulous practice of the forms.

[Chen Zen]

I see. Thank you for you response. I am new but I will catch on. Off to training now.:D