Shen(Spirit)????

[dre_doggX]

How do you develop Shen.

Yi and Qi have a grasp. but is Shen just awareness.

[ddh]

is an attempt to separate the idea of how to best move energy in the body. Concentrating on moving energy with the mind as a thinking process can cause energy to get trapped and cause illness or just not develop into much. Another way to understand the difference between Shen (will) and the normal mental processes is to grasp thinking as a closed process and Shen as an open process. As such, an open process expands and a closed process ignites or condenses. When combined through training both processes become one.
The classic instructions on body/mind training in all the literature I've encountered and in training with my teacher refer to how the spirit (shen) leads energy better than our normal configuration of the mind. It is a connection to a universal energy. The difference between the two will become clearer through training.
:)

[ddh]

Sorry, didn't answer you question! Basically, you need to expand your attention. Follow the ideas of head uplifted and sight looking far. Then Shen will be present. Standing meditation techniques are a good way to do this.

[count]

Look mean.:mad: :eek: :cool: :)

[prana]

do good things :)

[count]

Originally posted by prana
do good things :)

Oh, I thought he meant shen chi for martial arts.:confused:

[prana]

Count :) I wasnt sure which he meant either, but he said "yi and qi" and I thought, maybe he is thinking more like "shen" as in spirit....

:)

[count]

He did.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Sorry but someone referred to Shen as Will and that is totally incorrect. In the body the Will is called Zhi and is governed by the Kidneys whereas the Shen has it's residency in the Heart, and more specifically in the heart blood. Shen is the quality of one's being in terms of clarity of awareness as prescence. The person is correct in how they round off by saying that the guidance of Qi improves, consolidates and is refined through the refinement of one's shen, but in itself it is best describe as a prescence of clarity in one's awareness. It is expressed through the eyes, and if one's eyes are bright and full of vitality then one's Shen Ming is said to be closer to heaven.
A basic Chinese translation of the word is commonly accepted as Spirit and that is pretty much the best definition one can give of it.
It also best describes one's personal anima, one's quality of being.

[ddh]

as I meant it here is a reference to the Western concept of desire to achieve something and putting effort into action to achieve it.
You are correct Repulse Monkey when you said,"In the body the Will is called Zhi and is governed by the Kidneys whereas the Shen has it's residency in the Heart, and more specifically in the heart blood. Shen is the quality of one's being in terms of clarity of awareness as prescence." All very well coming from a book but I was not responding in this way to the question. As it was, he really was asking how to establish the presense of Shen.

[Repulsive Monkey]

"All very well coming from a book..."

Well that's all very well coming from a presumption ddh, as it came straight from my mouth and fingers. Shen is governed by the heart and maintained by the heart blood. But motivation to get things done and put the effort in is more in line with the Hun and the Zhi, of both the Liver in order to get things done and have the decision and planning to achieve, and the Kidney's again to achieve the impetus and drive to get it done. This has nothing to do with the heart and the Shen, I feel that you are slightly at cross purposes here ddh. The Shen isn't about getting things done it is a clarity or intensity of awareness in one's being.

[ddh]

Didn't mean to offend but seems to me " ......a presumption ... Shen is governed by the heart and maintained by the heart blood. But motivation to get things done and put the effort in is more in line with the Hun and the Zhi, of both the Liver in order to get things done and have the decision and planning to achieve, and the Kidney's again to achieve the impetus and drive to get it done. This has nothing to do with the heart and the Shen......... The Shen isn't about getting things done it is a clarity or intensity of awareness in one's being." is coming from what you read. I like what you are saying and agree with you. I've read this myself.
What is Shen in practice? i mean how do you induce this quality? That's the real question. Sorry to imply your just quoting something you don't understand - nothing's futher from the truth.







__________________

[Repulsive Monkey]

Just exists where there is Qi and Jing. Shen is the spoirit that resides in the heart and when the heart is strong your spirit is held firm and true, so your intentions are guided to their source via the Shen. Whereever you look your Shen projects there too. Meditation is a good tool to use to refine the Shen but then the oldest method I know of is Taoist Alchemy to refine Jing to Qi to Shen.

Sorry ddh for being a little hot headed there.

[bob10]

I don't understand these statements about the liver and kidneys, or the spirit being "stored in the heart". What do they actually mean?

I understand they relate to Chinese 5 element theory, but doesn't the brain have a major part to play in this? And if so, how come it is not one of the 5 organs associated with the elements?

[count]

Originally posted by bob10
I understand they relate to Chinese 5 element theory, but doesn't the brain have a major part to play in this? And if so, how come it is not one of the 5 organs associated with the elements?
The brain only thinks so. :eek:

[bob10]

So without the brain......

[Repulsive Monkey]

In TCM the Shen is said to have it'sresidency in the Heart and therefore the health of the heart dcitates directly the quality and stability of the Shen. The drive of the Kidneys is one function along with the residency of the Will power also known as Zhi. As for Liver the organ considered to be responsible for decision making and planning it holds the Hun/spirit.

[looking_up]

I think there is some truth to what R-Monkey is saying. At one point in my life, not too long ago, my kidneys were very weak and my liver energy was stagnant. I really had a hard time making decisions and having the will power to do things. I've been undergoing herbal therapy and doing more qigong. I find it somewhat easier to have the will to do what I want to do, and my overall attitude is better. It was not necessarily a lack of wanting to do things before, but the will was just not there. The flesh was weak, and so was the spirit.

[ddh]

if you do a bit of research on the Chinese theory of the 5 elements and it's medical relationships to the organ systems, you'll see that the brain as we call it in the West is apart of the Kidney system which includes the reproductive organs, Kidney bags themselves, (ears as they mimic the shape of the kidneys), central nervous system (as extension of the brain) and the brain.
The mind is another interesting bag all together. It is supposedly a quality that is interlocked with the brain, heart and tan tien (hara in Japanese) ( three fingers below the belly button - in placement). I use the word supposedly because that's the theory.
The main emphasis on defining the mind is awareness and enhancement of awareness through the grounding of the spirit considered an ethereal element not easily condensed with with a persons mundane elements (earth centered awareness found to be represented in the tan tien and the heart - center of the emotional state - probably getting a bit extended here.)
The presence of Shen is seen in the eyes - as Repulse Monkey has pointed out - (my wording here - as shinning, enlarged - that's a interesting point to be taken up via the paintings of Bodhi Darma - and with clear whites - most healthily not overly white but more of an oyster white.)
Getting to what Repulse Monkey was referring to as the Spirit residing in the heart "and when the heart is strong your spirit is held firm and true, so your intentions are guided to their source via the Shen." is the natural gateway through which the emotional state and the analytical state combine to get that mental monkey off you back (thinking too much). When the three centers of a persons being are deeply connected - tan tien, heart and brain - we get a stable quality with expanded awareness we call the mind. Anyway that's my take on the situation.


:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Being a simple person, i am troubled by complexities of culture translation.. Shen = spirit.. simple enough.. now, what is spirit..

The following, which is only my own understanding/opinion, is taken from another post i made on another thread:

"Tai Chi is like a construction project.. building a well-designed road.. Now, if you have a poorly maintained road, a flat, bumpy dirt road (body), even the best sports car (Chi) capable of great performance wont perform well.. Tai Chi trains the body to be a good road so the Sports car (Chi) can perform best.. Common to the construction and the car is the mind behind it.. the mind directs the construction and steers the car.. "

"Ultimately, it is our will and intention that powers even the mind.. and that is the spirit (shen).. it's like the gas that powers the car, the energy that powers the body.. Tai Chi, QiGong, Meditation, originate and are dependent on the will and intention (spirit).. start there and the details will become self evident.. At some point it becomes clear that chi can be directed and used effectively by will alone.. but, at least for me, i'm still working on my construction project, so i can "get it".. i've had glimpses during construction, but i am patiently waiting for the whole picture.."


Now, to elaborate.. Shen is that which is "us".. it wears our bodies, it uses our minds to express its "nature".. it is the connection between our concept of "self" and our residence in the "whole".. Shen, is a cohesive unit of self-aware energy currently exploring its physical properties.. its quality, its strength, its nature is manifest in our minds and bodies.. to the degree that we maintain healthy minds and bodies the Shen/spirit can express itself more clearly.. the relationships are interdependent and any aspect can influence the others.. the cognizant quality of "self" can improve its health, nurture its relationships with other "selfs" and improve the quality of "Shen".. Clarity is most beneficial at the interface between mind, body and spirit, a clear vision of this relationship will manifest clarity in all other aspects of "Being"...

Whew!!! i hope you will all forgive me for this mess, its only my opinion based on "my" experiences.. i am not intending to impose a belief-system.. perhaps i am looking for valid commentary (in english) :) I am grateful for any insights in this elusive subject..

Be well....

[Former castleva]

"So without the brain......"
Hehe.
Once again we would get these things messed up but it does not take a scientist to notice that ancient people did not know about anything about the brain compared to what we do know these days.
As in the traditional Chinese belief of heart acting as a spiritual center (among with whatever you stuff there) this was,I would think,also discussed by great philosophers and scientists of old Greece.
Heart,was included at least in some theory but later the great man of Hippocrates ("father of medicine") was to bravely state the importance of brain (I find this interesting since these guys,as it would seem,knew the ways of evolution and made progress) Of course the heart is,and will probably be seen in an "emotional" way,singers and poets etc. use the "heart" concept when expressing emotion,but not physiologically lol (considering it is a vital organ,it also works as somewhat of a metaphor) It´s not often that you will hear someone mourning "OOOOhhh...YOU´RE BREAKING MY BRAIN,oh please" :D However,while heart is not a part of endocrine system,there is some mild clue of it producing some chemicals that might affect mood,I do not know more about that.
Rationally thinking,to state otherwise would be downright nuts.
Another slightly less important thing is that of endocrinology,which was rather unknown in the old days too.
Since endocrine system works together with nervous system (nervous system-cns-central_is where "spirit "/mind is at from a reductionist viewpoint :rolleyes: ;) )
This,additionally,must have to do with things.
Kidneys,which have been pointed out in a case or two have been given great value as an example.
While it was not all that clear in the past,it is now common knowledge that adrenaline glands on top of the kidneys produce hormones (dr.Yang Jwing Ming also mentions this in one of his books) and hormones as known,do act with nervous system.
Their effects on what we call "emotions" can hardly be neglected.

[mantis108]

I think ddh's openning remark about the open and closed processes was brilliant. His address of the attempt to seperate Shen from solely energy manipulation by the mind was also equally outstanding. After all, the ultimate goal is return to the void. This letting go of the Shen/Soul/Atman and union with the Void/God/Brahman (sounds familiar isn't it?) is pretty much the final steps - Lian Shen Huan Hui. In other words, there is no Shen. Nor there is a spoon. :D Now, I am sure we can all argue this for all eternity. So I won't even go there. ;) However, the sudden equation of will and shen was to me a thumble. There we are back to square one. That implies that the highest possible attainment of the practitioner would only be earthly immortal. To achieve the open process is where we find Buddhists and Taoists alike sitting on top of the 1000 petals lotus blossoms. :)

Mantis108

PS Excellent rebuttals by Repulsive Monkey and ddh. Great discussion by all.