Polian quan = Shaolin Taizu changquan?

[beiquan]

Has anybody ever heard of a style called Polian quan (literally Breaking Lotus Boxing)? I was puzzled that Taizu changquan was not one of the forms listed in the Shaolinsi wushu baike quanshu (Complete Encyclopedia of Shaolin Temple Martial Arts), then I saw this:

"According to tradition the Polian Boxing of Shaolin Temple originated at the beginning of the Song Dynasty; it was transmitted to Shaolin Temple by Song Taizu, and is also called Taizu changquan. Later, the monk Fuju revised it to contain 35 postures, and named it Shaolin Polian quan... This style of boxing contains moves from the six styles of Piercing Foot (Chuojiao), Splitting/Hanging (Pigua), Six Harmonies, Five Harmonies, Arhat (Luohan) and Vajra (Jingang) Boxing, therefore it is called Polian quan, it is also called Six Gates Fist Magic Stance (Liumen quan huashen ba)."

[Royal Dragon]

Interesting, I have never heard this. Is it possible this is another set derived from tai tzu, but not the actual Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

Can you scan the first 3-4 moves of the book, and post them? I know the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan set. I can tell you if it's at least the same openeing moves.

[beiquan]

I don't have a scanner, but i can give you the names of the moves if that helps:

Opening Posture
1. Stealing the Peach from Under the Leaves
2. Green Dragon Stretches its Claws
3. Both Hands Grasp the Moon
4. Laojun Seals the Door
5. Turning the Body, Moving the Stone
6. Golden Rooster Stands One One Leg
7. Fairy Scatters Flowers
8. Ape Sits on the Mountain
9. Crouching to the Earth, Nimble Dragon
10. Great Roc Extends a Kick
11. Carrying Firewood on the Shoulder
12. Ape Withdraws its Body
13. Opening the Pass, Receiving the Enemy
14. Treading Tiger Climbs the Mountain
15. Fox Stretches its Claws
16. Black Dragon Grips the Pillar
17. Han Xin Waves his Banner
18. Immortal Sits in a Cave
19. Crouching to the Earth, Swimming Dragon
20. Lion Opens its Mouth
21. White Crane Gazes at the Immortal
22. Black Dragon Grips the Pillar
23. Erlang Carries the Mountain
24. Immortal Sits in a Cave
25. Swift Cat Plays with the Mouse
26. Golden Snake Enters the Grove
27. White Crane Spreads its Wings
28. Arhat Carries Firewood
29. Fierce Tiger Turns its Body
30. White Cranes Gather in the Sky
31. White Snake Leaves the Cave
32. Stepping Up, Closing the Storehouse
33. Arhat Blocks the Gate
34. Standing on the Mountain, Viewing the Scenery
Closing Posture

after a while these names start to all sound the same... :)

[Royal Dragon]

Hmmm, I never learned the correct names, only the set. I can cross reference it with the Tagou book, maybe that will shed some light.

1. ready posture
2 Starting movement
3 cutting A plam in a T- Stance
4 Rebounding a palm in a forward lunge
5 Hammering a fist in a T-satnce
6 right enpi in a forward lunge
7 both elbows enpi back in horse stance
8. both claws grasping lower back
9 rushing both fists up in horese stance
10 strikingbth hands wile stamping foot
11 Striking upper in forward lunge
12 Clapping foot wile jumping up
13 strike ears with both fists
14 Reining in at the brink of precipice
15 Keeping arms in a line with forwrd lunge
16 Cutting plam in forward lunge
17 Taiji palms (Looks like wave hands like clouds)
18 cutting palm in tiptoe stance (Empty stance)

The above are the first 18, but in moder description, not teh clasic poetry. If that helps, I'll post the rest for you when I have a bit more time tomorrow. It's bedieby time for me now.

[Royal Dragon]

I wonder if it could be considered a Taizu set becuase it was developed from a Taizu base, sort of like Qi Jiguang Fa?

I would love to see the translation of this set, and the accompaning diagrams. If it considered a Taizu set, bet I have it documented wholly or partially somewhere.

This would be a good one for Shaolin Master, or my freind in Australia.

[Royal Dragon]

19 Pressing both palms in a forward lunge
20 Standing with one leg like a cokk
21 Resting head on a pillow
22 reining in at the brink of precipice
23 Keeping arms in a line with a forward lunge
24 Celestial boy presenting peach
25 rushing fist 3 times wile lifting knee
26 Showing a palm in Tiptoe stance
27 rushing a fist in forward lunge
28 claping the foot wile jumping up
29 rushing a fist lower forweard wile stamping a foot.
30 rebounding a plam in a forward lunge
31 Enpi an elbow in lower wing stance
32 Rushing an arm upward in a front-touching stance
33 Hammerng an elbow in T-stance
34 Hideing a fist behind a palm
35 Forming Plough arms in T-stance
36 celestail boy presenting peach
37 Chopping a pam in tiptoe stance
38 pressing both palms in a forward lunge
39 left Washi- Geri
40 pressing both palms in a forward lunge
41 reining in at the brink of precipice
42 Close, Finninsh

[Shaolin Master]

1.)

If Polianquan is a Taizu set then many main stream songshan shaolin sets would be Taizu sets.

No it is a Shaolin Set.

2.)

Sometimes the histories of sets are dubious. Often the origins unclear and hearsay is written down.

3.)

Many of the sets in Deqian's encyclopedia are either incorrect, modern and the most prevailant one being that the quan pu were recalled but the associated techniques or content not known and thus often based on the basics of surviving or lay disciples who often learnt something else. In this way what had varying flavour often becomes similar even though it may not have been so.

4.) It would likely be that the influence of the other 6 styles should be more significant. Also, Fu Ju revised to 35 postures it is such a small set with quite a few standard motions.

5.) Lastly, I'd advice learning the material from the source as the enyclopedia is a reference for those who know the contents very difficult to use it as good tool.

[Royal Dragon]

1.)

If Polianquan is a Taizu set then many main stream songshan shaolin sets would be Taizu sets.

No it is a Shaolin Set.

Reply]
Hmm Ok, but this brings a question, what exactly IS a Tai Tzu set, and why is it considered so? It all came from the original 32 move form, right? So technically, anything above and beyond the original 32 were added on later, and not true Tai Tzu. Or is there an essence that I am mising, like a bio mechanical or expression sort of a thing?

2.)

Sometimes the histories of sets are dubious. Often the origins unclear and hearsay is written down.

Reply]
Hmmm, Yes, and that is becomming more and more wide spread in modern times it appears.

3.)

Many of the sets in Deqian's encyclopedia are either incorrect, modern and the most prevailant one being that the quan pu were recalled but the associated techniques or content not known and thus often based on the basics of surviving or lay disciples who often learnt something else.

Reply]
By Quan Pu, do you mean the poetic descriptions of the techniques?

In this way what had varying flavour often becomes similar even though it may not have been so.

Reply]
I have heard that many of the "Ancient" Shaolin sets today have been lost, and new sets have been created useing the ancient names. IF this is true, then the whole thing is hopelessly confusing to outsiders, and proably many insiders as well.


4.) It would likely be that the influence of the other 6 styles should be more significant. Also, Fu Ju revised to 35 postures it is such a small set with quite a few standard motions.

Reply]
Standard to Shaolin in general? As in movements commonly fond through out many Shaolin forms across the board?


5.) Lastly, I'd advice learning the material from the source as the enyclopedia is a reference for those who know the contents very difficult to use it as good tool.

Reply]
Yes, BUT if someone translates it to english, I'm buying it for my library anyway. Tai Tzu manuals, I'd even buy them written in Chinese, whether or not I understand it, just to have them in my collection. Especially one for the Northern branch. Many people enjoy researching the arts as much as practicing them.

[beiquan]

Shaolin Master -- thanks for that post. I agree that the encyclopedia would not be a great place to learn from; I wasn't aware of this historical background but that was my gut feeling on reading through it for the first time. I doubt that, despite the inclusion of pictures, it was intended for this purpose by the authors; rather, it represents a desire to set what is now known down in writing for the reference of future generations (like us!). I enjoy reading through it because it provides great information that could not be found elsewhere (AFAIK the Shaolin Quanpu, which is referenced throughout for the history and songs of these styles is not readily available), but I take everything in there with a grain of salt.

RD -- from these descriptions, it does not sound like the same form. I have seen the Tagou book but I don't have a copy here that I could use to compare, sorry. as for translating the whole encyclopedia into english... whew! it's a hefty 4 volumes, with upwards of 3000 pages. it would be an immense project, to say the least... as for the illustrations of this form, i just remembered that there is a website called cyberkwoon.com that i used to frequent which has a lot of scans from the Shaolin encyclopedia available to its "premium members" (meaning you have to pay for them). I bet if you emailed ffab, the webmaster (he used to post on these forums), he might scan this form in for you if it's not already in their database.

[Royal Dragon]

If you are a premium member, look at the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form, and tell me if it is the same.

Heck, forget that, go here and compare it http://members.tripod.com/~martial_art/32menu.htm

This is the General Qi Jigunag's Tai Tzu Chang Chuan form.

The one in the Tagou book is the Shaolin 32 move Tai tzu. Suposedly, it's about as close to the original as we have in modern times.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I can compare all the forms at one time, I have all of them in front of me.

It is my understanding the Po Lian means "Destroy".

In comparing all the forms shown,

the Po Lian form does not match the Shaolin 32 Move Long Fist form (which I know very well, enough to teach it) and
it doesn't match the 32 move form in General Qi's book from 1544 ad.

A few postures match, but that's about all.
No matching sequences, nothing.

This must be a Tai tzu derived form, but it has so many moves from all different Shaolin forms that it changes the tai tzu aspect a lot.

[Royal Dragon]

Sal, are you in the US? If so, when I am ready to travle in the next few years, would you be willing to teach me your Shaolin Tai Tzu form? I have a version of it, but the individual was not allowed to teach it, so I'm not sure how much I have is correct, or marked.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal, are you in the US? If so, when I am ready to travle in the next few years, would you be willing to teach me your Shaolin Tai Tzu form? I have a version of it, but the individual was not allowed to teach it, so I'm not sure how much I have is correct, or marked.


Hi;

No problem, when you are ready let me know, we'll make an appointment.

I'll do a seminar on that form, showing it's relationship to Chen and Yang tai chi,
it's roots in Shaolin 18 Lohan forms and other pre-sung dynasty styles, and of course will teach the whole 31 move forms with the proper soft and hard aspects that this form should have (Modern Shaolin "monks" do it all hard and lost many of the subtle aspects of it).

[GeneChing]

Shaolin encyclopedia available to its "premium members" (meaning you have to pay for them) Somehow, I doubt Deqian sees any of that. Another one of his books was ripped off too (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38988). That's just shameful, but maybe because I've had my stuff ripped off too, and it sucks. Writers don't make a lot of money, so it's stealing from the poor. And regardless of the criticisms some have levelled against Deqian's scholarship, his work is significant in the MA circles because there's simply nothing else quite like it. Besides, only a few MAists can really level any scholarly criticism, since so few are really scholars.

Great thread, guys. I've heard of polian but never gave it much of a thought until now...

[Sal Canzonieri]

Somehow, I doubt Deqian sees any of that. Another one of his books was ripped off too (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38988). That's just shameful, but maybe because I've had my stuff ripped off too, and it sucks. Writers don't make a lot of money, so it's stealing from the poor. And regardless of the criticisms some have levelled against Deqian's scholarship, his work is significant in the MA circles because there's simply nothing else quite like it. Besides, only a few MAists can really level any scholarly criticism, since so few are really scholars.

Great thread, guys. I've heard of polian but never gave it much of a thought until now...


Well, you certainly know that my articles written for your magazines have been ripped off many times by many websites without crediting me, so I concur.

[GeneChing]

Every once in a while I'll do a search to chase web reprints down and bust them with the old 'stop and desist'. Some one like Deqian doesn't really have that ability, being in Dengfeng and all. It's worse if they're actually charging for it. It's dishonorable to plaguerize and not credit. It's outright theft to charge.

The funny thing is that for our magazine, we are very open to having our articles republished on the web as long as they credit us properly and go through our approval process. Obviously, we want the hyperlinks because it adds to the traffic. Also for legal reasons, we want the (C) listed prominently, but how hard is that? It's that whole taking without asking that so bothersome, especially from MAists claiming to have some sense of righteousness. OK, end tirade. Back to Polian...

[Sal Canzonieri]

I was puzzled that Taizu changquan was not one of the forms listed in the Shaolinsi wushu baike quanshu (Complete Encyclopedia of Shaolin Temple Martial Arts) . . ."


The Tai Tzu long fist form's quan bu is in the previous chapter, where forms that they have no drawings of are listed.
THE VERY BEST forms are there, alas!!! Only words and no pics to scope!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Found it:

Volume 1 of the Shaolin encyclopedia on page 651 shows the quan bu
of the Shaolin Long Fist (tai tzu form), words only, no pictures.

Also, on that page is ROAD 2 of the form, VERY RARE indeed. 50 something moves.
AND on the next page (652) is ROAD 3.

What a great service it would do (esp to Chen tai ji research) if the images to the
form could one day be seen.

Anyone really good at reading Chinese that has these books able to post what it
says for these three forms? (in pinyin and, if possible english)
It would be a good deed for the world of CMA research!!!

[Royal Dragon]

Question for Sal,
How many roads of Shaolin Tai Tzu do you know?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Question for Sal,
How many roads of Shaolin Tai Tzu do you know?

one same as anyone else.

Some people from the area around Shaolin might know the other ones,
but they haven't gone public.

The only reason Shaolin has the first form again is that a local family taught
it back to them.

Maybe this family knows the rest?
*It would be amazing to see it one day.

It might put to rest a lot of tai ji controversy.

[Royal Dragon]

I have been collecting Tai Tzu forms for sometime now. I have found several of them "Connect" with little to no effort. For example, the last move of the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang chuan flows right into the first move of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan that John wang performs on the video found on his site.

also, plumb Flower sells some VCD's of Shaolin tai tzu that are said to be the first sections of a much longer form. the last moves of John Wang's set flows directly into the first of the plumb flower sets. I actually end the practice of his set by doing the first few moves of the set from the plumb flower set (an idea passed to me by someone, thankyou if you are reading this, e-mial me sometime I would like to restablish contact if possible).

Clearly you have to remove the opening and closeing bows, but it's fairly seemless otherwise.

The Shaolin version is a Hunan lineage, I believe John Wangs is a Taiwan, and the Plumb Flower is a Shanghi lineage. The fact that these sets are from different unconnected lines, but fit together back, to back to back like this leads me to belive that Tai Tzu was infact one huge long form at one time and is now broken up.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have been collecting Tai Tzu forms for sometime now. I have found several of them "Connect" with little to no effort. For example, the last move of the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang chuan flows right into the first move of the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan that John wang performs on the video found on his site.

also, plumb Flower sells some VCD's of Shaolin tai tzu that are said to be the first sections of a much longer form. the last moves of John Wang's set flows directly into the first of the plumb flower sets. I actually end the practice of his set by doing the first few moves of the set from the plumb flower set (an idea passed to me by someone, thankyou if you are reading this, e-mial me sometime I would like to restablish contact if possible).

Clearly you have to remove the opening and closeing bows, but it's fairly seemless otherwise.

The Shaolin version is a Hunan lineage, I believe John Wangs is a Taiwan, and the Plumb Flower is a Shanghi lineage. The fact that these sets are from different unconnected lines, but fit together back, to back to back like this leads me to belive that Tai Tzu was infact one huge long form at one time and is now broken up.


Cool, but be careful of making correlations between items without checking if there are really any causal connections.

The beginning and endings of most forms tell more about what school or system the form is from than anything else.

The Tai tzu form that John Wang did is from the Mei Hua Long Fist / Mantis school, I thought.
The opening segment is basically the same as their Xiao Fu Yen mantis form.
I'm pretty sure that this form is the Tai Tzu form that this N Mantis style teaches first. Which is from Shantung province.

To see how one style begat another you have to trace who taught who when and where.

I have seen a Hong Quan form by the Fan family, who were orginally from Shanxi province and later moved to Taiwan.
Other than the different mantis opening, it contains almost all the same moves as the form by John Wang.

There are many folk / village style Hong Quan and Tai Tzu forms all over Shandung and Shanxi province due to the popularity of doing a form attributed to an Emperor and that soldiers from the Sung dynasty taught it to people here and there after 960 AD. They are all different Long fist type forms, which must be due to tai tzu quan originally being a long collection of loose techniques, like most style from Sung dynasty and before.

What makes a form known as being derived from Tai Tzu Quan is that it has a combination of moves that are seen in old Lohan forms, Cha Quan, and also Tai Ji like moves.

Also, forms contain in them signature moves that tell you who the form came from. Like a tag that graphitti artists use. The singature move that tells you it is indeed a tai tzu derived form is seen in Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan and in Shaolin 32 TZ Long Fist forms. It is the second move in Shaolin TZLF, which externally is the face slap and internally like peng in Chen TJQ and also seen in the beginning of Grasp Sparrow's Tail in Yang TJQ.
Also, Shaolin Lohan erived forms move to the left side first exclusively (Da Mo's heir at Shaolin had no right arm). Except their TZLF form, which moves to the right first, like the Chen and Yang TJQ styles do. It (and the Gen Qi form, can end with your back to the audience, like old frame Chen form does).

Shanxi has a large Hong Quan style with many forms, Hong meaning "red" fist. It doesn't look too much like Shaolin TZQ.

In Henan, the Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan form is derived from Tai tzu quan, and it is much older than the most of their forms there now.

The Shaolin Da Hong Quan (3 roads) form that is taught publicly and seen in all the books and videos is NOT the same style of the Xiao Hong Quan form. Instead the Hong character means "flood". This form is attributed to the Yuan Dynasty and entered Shaolin from Li Shou (of Bai Yu Feng and Monk Jue Yuan fame).

Shaolin also has a rarely seen LONG Da Hong Quan that is very much like the moves seen in Xiao HOng Quan form.

[Royal Dragon]

I have seen a Hong Quan form by the Fan family, who were orginally from Shanxi province and later moved to Taiwan.
Other than the different mantis opening, it contains almost all the same moves as the form by John Wang.


Reply]
Interesting. I have shown this set, and another that is supposedly a mantis set I found on emptyflower a few years ago to a Tai Tzu Hong Chuan player I know in Australia. I didn't tell him what they were but he identified both as Tai Tzu Hong Chuan sets by thier make up. This is especially so for the mantis one, but the Tai Tzu one as well.

Cool, but be careful of making correlations between items without checking if there are really any causal connections.

Reply]
How could we tell? Tai Tzu is so old, how much of it has been taught, in part, every where from retired soldiers who learned it while they served in both the Sung, and Ming dyansties?

I have only heard rummurs of schools that have the entire 18 section long from, but most at best have 10 seperate sets, and useually those are Tai Tzu Hong Chaun.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Did you ever look into the Xia Quan forms?

They are "Knight Boxing", and they came from all the different wandering soldiers
that taught a local family some KF.

Many different styles have Xia Quan forms, all of them are similar in moves.

Supposedly, they look like Lama Pai style forms.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Do you have this:

Tai Tsu Quan


88612 - Price: $59.98

TAI TSU QUAN
English narration. Documentary/ Semi-instructional. Re-enactment of the origins of this rare
style of the Ming dynasty. Southern / Northern comparisons, various forms of both, 2 man
conditioning, 2 man sticky body, 3 battles, 4 corners, 3 gate form, more northern and southern
forms shown. A very good style with effective techniques. #88612. $59.98. Buy 1 Get 1 Free!

[Royal Dragon]

What site is that?

I have one from Shaolin Brand Inc with a similar description. Lots of Tai tzu Hong Chuan on the tape.

[Sal Canzonieri]

What site is that?

I have one from Shaolin Brand Inc with a similar description. Lots of Tai tzu Hong Chuan on the tape.

That's the one.

The first half of the tape is pretty much tai tzu hong quan and the second half is southern style.

There's one form on the first half that is very much like N Mantis.

(by the way, there is a Tong bei thread on this site that talks about Tai tzu soldier's knowing Tong Bei Quan and that tai tzu quan has its origins in Tong Bei Quan.)

[Royal Dragon]

I'm thinking that Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is internal, and the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is external.

As for that tape, at one point I had worked out and practiced every form on there.

Over all, I have collected enough to make a whole Tai Tzu system, but it's not from a single lineage. My Tai Tzu is like a mad sampler of Tai Tzu from all over. I actually have some sets form a southern branch of the Northern style. That stuff looks most like the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan of the north, only it's seems more aggresive in expression.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm thinking that Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is internal, and the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is external.

As for that tape, at one point I had worked out and practiced every form on there.

Over all, I have collected enough to make a whole Tai Tzu system, but it's not from a single lineage. My Tai Tzu is like a mad sampler of Tai Tzu from all over. I actually have some sets form a southern branch of the Northern style. That stuff looks most like the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan of the north, only it's seems more aggresive in expression.

well that's commendable that you are preserving the sets like that into one place.
That's truly great think for history preservation.

Hmm, can any pre-Ching Dynasty CMA really be only internal or external?
I'm sure that the forms would have both.

Knowing history of forms, in my opinion, the TZ Hong forms are a designation for forms that came from his soldier followers and
the TZ Chang Quan forms are direct from his original line.

The TZ hong quan forms seem to be seen all over the place as folk forms.

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not sure how much preservation I can do, I really don't think I have full un altered sets just becasue of the way I learned them.

I think you are right, the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan came from his royal guard, and the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is the imperial family line.

I think the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is more rare, but it is als a folk style today.

I also think the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is the older of the two, and one of the base arts the Emperor drew on when creating his personal style. I also suspect that the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan was the Hong Chuan that influanced the Chen style of Taiji, but that is just a personal hunch with no basis in credible research.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm not sure how much preservation I can do, I really don't think I have full un altered sets just becasue of the way I learned them.

I think you are right, the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan came from his royal guard, and the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is the imperial family line.

I think the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is more rare, but it is als a folk style today.

I also think the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is the older of the two, and one of the base arts the Emperor drew on when creating his personal style. I also suspect that the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan was the Hong Chuan that influanced the Chen style of Taiji, but that is just a personal hunch with no basis in credible research.


Lots of people say that Tong Bei was the art that the soldiers already practiced when Tai Tzu became a soldier. So, he had to learn it to be a soldier.
Also, he learned Lohan from Shaolin, which clearly has some "mother" moves seen in the various Tai Tzu Quans.

Chen village martial arts was mostly based on Pao Chui from Henan Province (shaolin influence) but the founders of the village came from Shanxi province originally, where Hong Quan and Tai Tzi Quan was very popular for a long time already.
AND, the Chen Tai ji "founder" had served in the Military in Shandong province, where Tai Tzu was very popular already as well.
So, you might be very right.

When you see the Chen Tai Ji long fist and Lao Jia forms (and learn them) and also learn the Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan (and the real Da Hong Quan form not the one seen more often today) AND the Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan forms, THEN
your clearly see the mother moves that easily are adapted into Chen Tai Ji moves.

I will make a chart when I get the chance in the next few month that lists each move in Chen and Yang long forms and the corresponding moves in the Shaolin Tai Tzu / Hong Quans forms. Whole sequences of moves are duplicated in the same order.

[DRleungjan]

Sal and Royal Dragon,

Wow...this is so interesting....may I ask a question? Did Taizu Chuan influence any southern styles and if so how did that come about?

Thanks in advance. :)

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not sure. I do know there ARE Southern branches of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. It's known as Tai Jow Cheun Kune Pai. It's basically the Northern, but done with a more agressive expression, deeper stances that are a tad bit less mobile, but not much and more agressive hand work.

There is also a Southern Tai Tzu Quan, but it is a seperate style. It was developed by the Sung dynasties ruling family in the LATE Southern Sung dynasty. It was originally for rapid rebuilding of troops after the losses in the North. That branch developed quite a bit more in local villiages and eventualy evolved to become the Five Ancestor's Fist when it merged with 4 other styles (White Crane being one) This branch later spread to Okinawia and became Okinawian Karate.

The Tai Tzu school also contains 8 sets of Northern Monkey, and 8 sets of Southen Monkey. The line is not the modern Tai Shing Pekwar though, but a branch of Monkey Kung Fu who's origines go back to roughly 650 AD.

There is also the Six Stance Fist, Cha Fist, Hua Fist and Gun Fist that are all direct descendants of northern Tai Tzu.

I have also heard Nine Way Mandrian Duck is somehow related.

Both Chen Taiji and Northern Preying Mantis can trace thier roots to heavy Tai Tzu influances.

The Imperial Guard that was commanded by the soon to be Emperor, Sung Tai Tzu (took the throne in 960 AD) practiced an art called Hong Jia Quan. I believe this is the same art known as Tai Tzu Hong Chuan today, and most likely is Tai Tzu Chang Chuan's most imediate predicessor.

Tai Tzu in it's various forms were spread all over China becasue it was widely taught to the military both in it's original Sung dynasty, and later in the Ming dynasty. My guess is most of the lines just died out. What didn't, most likely evolved into many minor family styles. What didn't die out or evolve into other arts is still with us today. Some lines are intact and complete, and others are parts of Tai Tzu systems preserved as single sets in many other Long fist styles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal and Royal Dragon,

Wow...this is so interesting....may I ask a question? Did Taizu Chuan influence any southern styles and if so how did that come about?

Thanks in advance. :)

Yes, many!

Most Hakka martial arts are based on it.

So is the Wanderer's or Beggar's style.

Go Ju Ryu and the Chinese Five Ancestors style is largely based on forms from Southern Tai Tzu Quan style .

and

Wing Chun looks so much like Southern Tai tzi quan that I think many people are in denial that it surely is a major influence.

[Royal Dragon]

Hmm, I didn't know it was that wide spread. I have heard the unicorn style is based on Southern Tai Tzu Quan too though.

It makes sense though, given Tai Tzu's age (both styles bering the name), and both haveing been so wide spread by the military of several dynasties.

[DRleungjan]

Thanks alot guys....that sure gives an answer to some of my questions. :)

[shaolinche]

Our school has 2 tai zu chang quan forms and 1 two man tai zu chang quan form. Our forms come from Grandmaster Yin Chian Ho and Master Cheng Tsang Lu. Our forms are different than John Wangs and the Han Ching Tang lineage. Very unique.

Royal Dragon,
I know that you wanted to get a video of our forms, sorry about how long it has been. I just haven't had the means and equipment to do it. Also, I think that it would be best to contact my father Master Lu. His website is www.luhealthcenter.com

I have never seen our Tai Zu chang quan forms performed outside of our lineage.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Our school has 2 tai zu chang quan forms and 1 two man tai zu chang quan form. Our forms come from Grandmaster Yin Chian Ho and Master Cheng Tsang Lu. Our forms are different than John Wangs and the Han Ching Tang lineage. Very unique.

Royal Dragon,
I know that you wanted to get a video of our forms, sorry about how long it has been. I just haven't had the means and equipment to do it. Also, I think that it would be best to contact my father Master Lu. His website is www.luhealthcenter.com

I have never seen our Tai Zu chang quan forms performed outside of our lineage.

Can you please provide his linage to Tai Tzu Quan?
What area of China make a big difference.

[Royal Dragon]

shaolinche
No biggie. I'm not in research mode right now anyway. I'm in "Back to basics" mode right now. However, when I am ready, I will be traveling around to learn what I can from everyone. Hopefully I will be able to connect the few Tai Tzu players that there are here in the US at the same time.

You and Sal are on my list, as well as Sifu Abel, and Adam Hsu. Ideally, thinking Long Term, I'd like to get my website back (It's been down since the Hurricanes, and no one is responding to my E-mails), and then link to all the reputable Tai Tzu players I know of world wide. Hopefully in time as my reputaion grows I will be able to get players of the style out of the wood works so I can provide a comprehensive list of Tai Tzu Sifu's and lineage for those interested in research.