Kickboxing: Kung fu and Karate at advanced levels?

[ArrowFists]

Last Saturday, me and some friends decided to do a little free sparring in the backyard, with pads and such. All of us are instructor grade and pretty advanced in our respective styles. What struck me when we began free-sparring, was that the stuff we were doing looked almost identical to kickboxing, except for some trapping and throws.

I've witnessed this before at the Sabaki challenge, a full-contact karate tournament held by some Karate school who's name I forget at the moment...

Anyway, seeing blackbelts in Shotokan, Wada Ryu, Goju, and other karate styles degenerate from wonderful pre-set demonstrations complete with spectacular throws, and reverse punch knockdowns, to sloppy, slappy, kicking fests once the full contact tournament begins is rather depressing.

I can't really name a Kung Fu counterpart, except for Chinese kickboxers, but they're kickboxers, and they look a lot better than what I saw at the various Sabaki challenges.

So is Kickboxing the pinnacle of arts like Karate and/or Kung Fu? In the end, when it comes to fighting with these styles, are we to become nothing more than sloppy looking kickboxers? Is all the forms, kata, etc. we learned for nothing?

[Royal Dragon]

Yup, Kung Fu sux, better go MMA.

[Lowlynobody]

Yeah, your wasting your time. Go do some kickboxing.

[joedoe]

Kickboxing is the real street lethal.

[David Jamieson]

Last Saturday, me and some friends decided to do a little free sparring in the backyard, with pads and such. All of us are instructor grade and pretty advanced in our respective styles. What struck me when we began free-sparring, was that the stuff we were doing looked almost identical to kickboxing, except for some trapping and throws.

I've witnessed this before at the Sabaki challenge, a full-contact karate tournament held by some Karate school who's name I forget at the moment...

Anyway, seeing blackbelts in Shotokan, Wada Ryu, Goju, and other karate styles degenerate from wonderful pre-set demonstrations complete with spectacular throws, and reverse punch knockdowns, to sloppy, slappy, kicking fests once the full contact tournament begins is rather depressing.

I can't really name a Kung Fu counterpart, except for Chinese kickboxers, but they're kickboxers, and they look a lot better than what I saw at the various Sabaki challenges.

So is Kickboxing the pinnacle of arts like Karate and/or Kung Fu? In the end, when it comes to fighting with these styles, are we to become nothing more than sloppy looking kickboxers? Is all the forms, kata, etc. we learned for nothing?


Chinese kickboxing is san shou.
There are rules that are applied, but it is essentially that.

The pinnacle of your art form is in your ability to apply what you have been developing through your practice.
If you are unable to apply more advanced techniques then you need to practice more and of course test you ability more.

Kickboxing is not "sloppy, slappy, kicking fests" in it's competition level form. Certainly, an artform developed for martial application should not be designed to be that either.

Forms contain keys, keys open doors and in martial arts, those doors lead to understanding. From this understanding as a holistic being (body/mind/essence) you can attain Kungfu.

so don''t worry, just keep practicing. ;)

cheers

[Royal Dragon]

Kickboxing shmickboxing. Everyone knows only Muy Thai crossed with Bjj is effective.

[joedoe]

OK here's my serious answer.

A lot of people end up fighting with a kickboxing style because the techniques of kickboxing are among the simplest and most immediately and broadly useful striking techniques. People who have not trained their art enough, or who do not have the confidence to employ the principles of their art will rely on the simplest and most broadly useful techniques - hence looking like kickboxing. There is nothing wrong with this except that if you want to fight so that you look like you are fighting with your art rather than with kickboxing, then it means you need to practice fighting with your art more and build your confidence in that manner of fighting.

[monk weed]

I would also like to add that when you are ingaged in a friendly sparring match the tendency is to size up your opponent and engage in a friendly exchange of mostly straight punches and none threatening kicks. San sau is a little different. I have yet to attend a kung fu tournement where the sparring does not look like kickboxing.

[SevenStar]

Good Post, joedoe

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by monk weed
I would also like to add that when you are ingaged in a friendly sparring match the tendency is to size up your opponent and engage in a friendly exchange of mostly straight punches and none threatening kicks. San sau is a little different. I have yet to attend a kung fu tournement where the sparring does not look like kickboxing.

I don't think I'd agree with that. When I spat, I don't change my techniques, only the speed/strength that's used, depending on how we are sparring.

[joedoe]

Thanks 7*. I like to occasionally contribute something to the forum other than the usual drivel I come up with :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ArrowFists


I can't really name a Kung Fu counterpart, except for Chinese kickboxers, but they're kickboxers, and they look a lot better than what I saw at the various Sabaki challenges.



Go to kazaa and do a search for kyokushin. they've got some nice kicks - the roundhouse reminds me of the thai roundhouse, almost. I used to train with a japanese friend of mine who kicked the same way - he had some of the hardst strikes of anyone I've ever been hit by, and he was 5'5 and weighed 160 or so.

[ArrowFists]

Ditto Monkweed. In every tournament I've been to where sparring is one of the events, I have yet to see someone lean down into a front stance, and block using a traditional karate block, or do a backstance and employ chambered had techniques.

I'd also like to thank those contributers who are being serious, and not acting like this is another thread that bashes traditional styles, that's not my intention with this thread in the least. I'm simply asking why in competitions around the country, people can do their forms wonderfully, but when it comes time for sparring, the form shown in their katas are erased, and a kickboxing-looking stance, and fighting style are employed. I've seen it throughout Kung Fu and Karate, and throughout the ranks, from white to black belt/sash.

I'm simply asking why. Joedoe says that its a lack of training, and confidence in one's style. Well if that's the case, then we have a serious epidemic on our hands.

Kung Lek, I wasn't calling kickboxing "sloppy, slappy, kickfests". I was talking about the Sabaki challenge participants, and the style they were doing that they called "karate".

[joedoe]

The other thing to bear in mind (and this is speaking for kung fu - I don't know much about karate) is that the protective gear worn often hampers the ability to use certain techniques. If you are wearing full boxing gloves, then you are pretty limited to what techniques you may use. I know MMA comps use open fingered gloves, but we are not talking about MMA comps here. And if the tournaments you are talking about use open fingered gloves, then you also have to look at the rules of competition to see what techniques are legal. Ultimately if the rules only allow you to kick and punch then you are limited to mostly kickboxing techniques aren't you?

However, if none of this is the case, then yes you have a serious epidemic on your hands :)

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Go to kazaa and do a search for kyokushin. they've got some nice kicks - the roundhouse reminds me of the thai roundhouse, almost. I used to train with a japanese friend of mine who kicked the same way - he had some of the hardst strikes of anyone I've ever been hit by, and he was 5'5 and weighed 160 or so.

As a student of Shotokan karate for over a decade, I know all about Kyokushin. In fact, our school is a fusion of Shotokan and Kyokushin karate.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ArrowFists
[color=firebrick][b]Ditto Monkweed. In every tournament I've been to where sparring is one of the events, I have yet to see someone lean down into a front stance, and block using a traditional karate block, or do a backstance and employ chambered had techniques.

Stances are transitional. I wouldn't drop into a deep front stance to fight either. chambered techniques in many cases represent the chambering hand grabbing and pulling - which you will not do in a match. However, you WILL have strikes coming at you fast nd furious. you will get knocked out with a low chamber.

I'm simply asking why in competitions around the country, people can do their forms wonderfully, but when it comes time for sparring, the form shown in their katas are erased, and a kickboxing-looking stance, and fighting style are employed. I've seen it throughout Kung Fu and Karate, and throughout the ranks, from white to black belt/sash.

Knowing how to do a form is one thing, knowing how to apply it is another. you have to understand the PRINCIPLE behind what you are doing. That applies to anything.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ArrowFists


As a student of Shotokan karate for over a decade, I know all about Kyokushin. In fact, our school is a fusion of Shotokan and Kyokushin karate.

cool, then you know what I'm talking about!

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by joedoe
The other thing to bear in mind (and this is speaking for kung fu - I don't know much about karate) is that the protective gear worn often hampers the ability to use certain techniques. If you are wearing full boxing gloves, then you are pretty limited to what techniques you may use. I know MMA comps use open fingered gloves, but we are not talking about MMA comps here. And if the tournaments you are talking about use open fingered gloves, then you also have to look at the rules of competition to see what techniques are legal. Ultimately if the rules only allow you to kick and punch then you are limited to mostly kickboxing techniques aren't you?

However, if none of this is the case, then yes you have a serious epidemic on your hands :)

Well that really can't be helped, since so many of the millions of individuals who participate in karate, kung fu, or another martial art form are children or teenagers. I don't think parents would appreciate their children coming home with black eyes, broken limbs, or worse. Every class I've assisted teaching in uses knuckle guards, helmets, and mouth guards during sparring sessions, or kumite as we in karate call it....

Advanced classes tend to lose the helmet and gloves, and just go for the mouth piece when it comes to full contact. However, I'd have to say that on a whole, punching and kicking feels rather weak, and totally devoid of power. I think that comes from the years of sparring w/ pads, and ridiculous point competitions seen in most MA tournaments around the country. The last point-based competition where I was one of the judges had a rule where throws, and grabs were allowed, and the participants wore open-handed gloves that could permit such an activity. Needless to say, all I say was sloppy technique, and really high, useless kicking.

I think we do have a big problem, and it does stem from the type of training that people are undergoing in dojos and kwoons around the country.

[ArrowFists]

Stances are transitional. I wouldn't drop into a deep front stance to fight either. chambered techniques in many cases represent the chambering hand grabbing and pulling - which you will not do in a match. However, you WILL have strikes coming at you fast nd furious. you will get knocked out with a low chamber.

I agree. However, I'll take it a step further and say that the chambering of the hand for reverse punches, blocks or other such techniques are next to worthless. Maybe for throwing, but I've never seen chambered hand throws being employed in Aikido or Judo.

I did see someone do a reverse punch in a fight. However he was 6'6 and around 260 lbs. He could do almost anything to anyone and get away with it.

Knowing how to do a form is one thing, knowing how to apply it is another. you have to understand the PRINCIPLE behind what you are doing. That applies to anything.

I agree once again. I actually have a book about shotokan bunkai (applications) and it disects every form and shows how each move can be used in an encounter. The problem is that most people aren't taught the applications to their kata, and frankly, I've never seen ANYONE break into a kata during a sparring competiton, or when someone's coming to beat them down.

[joedoe]

I do probably 70% of my sparring without any protective gear - you just have to trust that your partner will maintain some degree of control and will not inflict too much damage on you. Having said that we usually don't go full power if we are doing this.

Once you pull on gloves, your range of tachniques is limited and so while you can up the power you are limited on technique. I guess we need to find a middle ground.

So when you trained with your buddies, was it with or without protective gear? How do you think that might have affected the way you all fought?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ArrowFists
Stances are transitional. I wouldn't drop into a deep front stance to fight either. chambered techniques in many cases represent the chambering hand grabbing and pulling - which you will not do in a match. However, you WILL have strikes coming at you fast nd furious. you will get knocked out with a low chamber.

I agree. However, I'll take it a step further and say that the chambering of the hand for reverse punches, blocks or other such techniques are next to worthless. Maybe for throwing, but I've never seen chambered hand throws being employed in Aikido or Judo.

I did see someone do a reverse punch in a fight. However he was 6'6 and around 260 lbs. He could do almost anything to anyone and get away with it.

Knowing how to do a form is one thing, knowing how to apply it is another. you have to understand the PRINCIPLE behind what you are doing. That applies to anything.

I agree once again. I actually have a book about shotokan bunkai (applications) and it disects every form and shows how each move can be used in an encounter. The problem is that most people aren't taught the applications to their kata, and frankly, I've never seen ANYONE break into a kata during a sparring competiton, or when someone's coming to beat them down.

I would say chambering the hand is a good way to train body mechanics to learn to generate the power in the punch. It is too slow for sparring and fighting purposes.

Kata/forms are nothing but a encyclopedia of techniques and a template for how you might move from one technqiue to another. To expect a fighter to use the sequences from kata/form exactly as they are taught is kinda unrealistic.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
I do probably 70% of my sparring without any protective gear - you just have to trust that your partner will maintain some degree of control and will not inflict too much damage on you. Having said that we usually don't go full power if we are doing this.

Once you pull on gloves, your range of tachniques is limited and so while you can up the power you are limited on technique. I guess we need to find a middle ground.

So when you trained with your buddies, was it with or without protective gear? How do you think that might have affected the way you all fought?

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I would give a testical for a holodeck like they have in Star Trek!

Imagine being able to program all manner of sparring scenarios and then go through them with various levels of safety set in!

Ah, the nerd in me always has the answers...

:)

[Vapour]

Why do you have to do your kata in free sparing?

In my style of taijiquan, we emphasised 99/1 ratio of ying and yang weight distribution of leg when we step. But this is merely a training method to increase leg strenght and to learn not to double weight. In sparing, ratio are 49/51. Come on, no one seriously fight with horse stance.

Stance and patter are mean to teach you the principle of arts not strictly teaching how to do technique in this way or that way. If you do kickboxing which exclude groundwork or throw, your stance should become high. If you fight on the stree, most common stance one can take is old boxing style stance which is much similar to karate and kung fu.

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by joedoe


So when you trained with your buddies, was it with or without protective gear? How do you think that might have affected the way you all fought?

We trained without protective gear. I think that forces us to use the techniques we've learned more effectively, because if not, you're going to get hurt.

[rogue]

I would say chambering the hand is a good way to train body mechanics to learn to generate the power in the punch. It is too slow for sparring and fighting purposes. Other uses for punching from a low chamber.
1. Sucker punch to the solar plexus.
2. Getting a first strike in when the opponents in close.

I've found both work best using a verticle fist ala Isshinryu or an upset/close punch(ura-zuki). I've used these in sparring when in close and my opponents hands are jammed or his guard is open. I've also seen boxers chamber their hands when working the body.

[joedoe]

Fair enough rogue. I stand corrected.

[DragonzRage]

sniff sniff....

I smell a dead horse being kicked.

[shaolin kungfu]

You can smell actions!? Wow!

[DragonzRage]

I smell the horse...and I HEAR the kicking...happy now?

[shaolin kungfu]

:D Yes.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
You can smell actions!? Wow!

He can do this because of his mystical kung fu training :D

[shaolin kungfu]

At first I thought he was one of those people with the brain disorder that makes you smell colors and taste sounds.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by shaolin kungfu
At first I thought he was one of those people with the brain disorder that makes you smell colors and taste sounds.

That's a brain disorder? I thought you got that from using too many recreational drugs :D

[Serpent]

There's no such thing as too many drugs.

[BaldMonk]

This is something that we've spoken about before here. Unfortunately I think there is an epidemic in Karate and in Kung Fu. Katas and Forms are good training tools as well as devices to maintain and remember the movements of a particular style or art. However in order to use the techniques in a fighting situation they have to be trained one at a time against a resisting oppenent. People don't dissect their forms and do this. It's difficult but less so if you have a good teacher. Without doing this you're gonna be left with the sloppy kickboxing that I've seen at every tournament I've attended since the mid 80's. At the risk of getting all my Kung Fu brethren vexed with me, I'd venture to say the MMA guys train single techniques in a more effective fashion so what you see in competition is the same thing you see when they roll in the training hall. With Kung Fu and karate it would be more difficult to train in this fashion due to a higher risk of injury but it's doable. We just need to put some time into it. This impromtu sparring session that resulted in sloppy kickboxing is a good thing. It should serve as a catalyst for training modifications. If you can work 3-5 techs from your forms/katas in combat situations you will be a very formidable opponent. Look at what boxers can do with a somewhat limited arsenal.

Thoughts?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ArrowFists

I agree. However, I'll take it a step further and say that the chambering of the hand for reverse punches, blocks or other such techniques are next to worthless. Maybe for throwing, but I've never seen chambered hand throws being employed in Aikido or Judo.

shuai chiao has some - diagonal cut, for example. As for judo, think about what a chamber at the waist will do. It will pull you toward me, with your weight falling onto the forward foot - not ideal for throwing, unless you are stepping into the person - like when you put the person's weight on the supporting leg as the kazushi for o soto gari. I want you going backwards, with all of your weight on that foot so I can sweep it from under you. by keeping your weight on it, it's heavier and slower for you to move - It's stopping you from avoiding my sweep. Another such technique is ko soto gake. In most other judo sweeps, I don't want you to have all your weight on one foot - I want you to have as little weight on it as possible, that way it's easy for me to take it as you are trying to put weight on it - I take the leg you are trying to base on, effectively killing your base. the result is that you fall. With throws, it's similar - I want as little weight on your legs as possible. Consequently, the kazushi for many throws pulls the uke upward.

Back to karate for a sec though, the pulling is often used in ways that favor strikes, which will do viturally nothing for Judo, as that's not the focus. think about the first set of techniques in heian nidan - the high block/ outside block (simultaneous) close them together and punch, with a nice, huge chambering of the rear hand. the high block blocks the punch. you grab it and pull it down and towards your other arm - the inside block that the other arm performs breaks the arm. then, you yank the arm (the chamber) and pull your opponent into a strike.

I did see someone do a reverse punch in a fight. However he was 6'6 and around 260 lbs. He could do almost anything to anyone and get away with it.

I'm not saying it CAN'T work. anything has the potential of working, especially against the untrained.


I agree once again. I actually have a book about shotokan bunkai (applications) and it disects every form and shows how each move can be used in an encounter. The problem is that most people aren't taught the applications to their kata, and frankly, I've never seen ANYONE break into a kata during a sparring competiton, or when someone's coming to beat them down. [/B]

And you likely never will. you're not supposed to. once you learn the principle, it applies to several techniques and that is what the kata is trying to teach you. going back to judo, take the principle of liting and pulling to kazushi and throw. Once you know and understand that princople, you will understand how to do tsuri komi goshi, harai tsuri komi ashi and, sasae tsuri komi ashi and any other lifting / pulling throw.

for the heian nidan example I gave - once you understand that, you can apply that hammerfist break in numerous situations, not just the one you see in the kata.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vapour

Stance and patter are mean to teach you the principle of arts not strictly teaching how to do technique in this way or that way. If you do kickboxing which exclude groundwork or throw, your stance should become high.

Even if it has ground work and throwing, you don't want it low. sinking your weight like that only makes you easier to takedown.

[BaldMonk]

Sevenstar's on point. Principles. Those 3-5 techniques can be thought of as the ability to apply principles under combat stress. My Sifu talks about being able to use 3-5 Jings. If you've got that you're in good shape. Another problem with attmpting to do techniques during sparring situations is that during combat your heartbeat increases substantially and your ability to use anything other than fine motor skills is severely diminished. If you've no familiarity with using the techniques against a resisting opponent, with varying speed distance and angles...


you're doomed.


IMHO

[TjD]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Even if it has ground work and throwing, you don't want it low. sinking your weight like that only makes you easier to takedown.


mabye for some people. at least with my wing chun stance if your going to take me down, you have to get under my center of gravity. if i take a high stance, people can lift me up off my feet no problem (i only weigh 165lbs). if i keep my stance low, my body structure usually prevents them from getting under me and this prevents them from taking out my legs or lifting me up.

[SevenStar]

go to a grappler and tell them to do that. when your weight is sunk, it's easier to take your balance from a different angle. If you are in a front stance, for example, yes, it's hard to take a person straight back. But when you switch to a diagonal angle, it's cake. no stance is invulnerable to takedown.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"Kickboxing is the real street lethal."

lol

"....you don't want it low. sinking your weight like that only makes you easier to takedown."

finally. i have agreed with 100% of everything you have ever said until now. you have way more experience than i'll likely ever have against grappelers though, so maybe you can help me understand how that is. whenever someone has went to take me down my responce is either to sprawl or drop into an even lower stance depending on how they are trying to do it. maybe im just used to it though ... i always stand fairly low (medium or maybe barely high in kicking range) as im a little guy and i need all the base for power i can get.

[SevenStar]

when you sprawl, both legs are back. In a front stance, I can still take one. Also, he was saying it in the context of fighting - you can't fight from a sprawl, so that's really not included in his statement or mine. low horse, front, etc. you can still go down.

[TjD]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
"....you don't want it low. sinking your weight like that only makes you easier to takedown."

finally. i have agreed with 100% of everything you have ever said until now. you have way more experience than i'll likely ever have against grappelers though, so maybe you can help me understand how that is. whenever someone has went to take me down my responce is either to sprawl or drop into an even lower stance depending on how they are trying to do it. maybe im just used to it though ... i always stand fairly low (medium or maybe barely high in kicking range) as im a little guy and i need all the base for power i can get.

exactly what i was saying.


Originally posted by SevenStar
go to a grappler and tell them to do that. when your weight is sunk, it's easier to take your balance from a different angle. If you are in a front stance, for example, yes, it's hard to take a person straight back. But when you switch to a diagonal angle, it's cake. no stance is invulnerable to takedown.

as to the invulnerable, thats why i used the word 'usually' in my post :D i'm not saying that in the least.

to the grappler, i'm sure a grapplers stance is a far cry from being remotely close to a wing chun stance. the rear-weightedness of a WC stance helps (helps - not assured victory) against people coming in from different angles (more than a front stance anyhow).

either way, in my experience when i go up, i end up being taken down far more often. if the guy is a bit larger than me and strong enough to throw me around, i get taken down almost all the time :)
When i drop my stance lower or kick my legs back i fare much better.

[bob10]

For me it points to the fact that form training often impinges on what will happen in real life. It's all very well running through stylised movement or technique but technique rarely works in real life.

It's like you are conditioning your body to move in one particular way, rather than letting it move in whatever way will work best for the situation. I understand (having trained forms for many years) all about working leg strength in stances, etc but there are other ways to do this too.

It's also interesting to see what comes out under pressure and how it seems that will people revert to a boxing-type approach.
A karate guy said to me recently "they taught us reverse punch, high block, then when we got to black belt they taught us jab, cross and hook" :)

People may say, "ah, but after many years form training, you become formless" - but if it takes so many years, why not start by being formless?

Take all the time you spend practicing solo movements and try them against a partner instead. Work everything freestyle. If you want to train your legs, then while you do it work in a half or full squat. Work slow, but work full contact.

FWIW I've got guys with no previous training who are progressing far quicker with this approach than with my previous approach of extensive form training.

cheers

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TjD



to the grappler, i'm sure a grapplers stance is a far cry from being remotely close to a wing chun stance. the rear-weightedness of a WC stance helps (helps - not assured victory) against people coming in from different angles (more than a front stance anyhow).

either way, in my experience when i go up, i end up being taken down far more often. if the guy is a bit larger than me and strong enough to throw me around, i get taken down almost all the time :)
When i drop my stance lower or kick my legs back i fare much better.

yeah, the stance is different. I trained longfist for 4 years though. IME, yes, the lower stance gets their center lower, but

1. they have to beat me to them.
2. even if they do beat me to the lower stance, I'm much more mobile and can take them at another angle.

the front stance was just an example - there are sweeps that attack the rear leg also, and grapplers do uproot. Of course, takedowns can be defended, but IMO simply sinking your stance isn't the best way to do it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by bob10
For me it points to the fact that form training often impinges on what will happen in real life. It's all very well running through stylised movement or technique but technique rarely works in real life.

It's like you are conditioning your body to move in one particular way, rather than letting it move in whatever way will work best for the situation. I understand (having trained forms for many years) all about working leg strength in stances, etc but there are other ways to do this too.

It's also interesting to see what comes out under pressure and how it seems that will people revert to a boxing-type approach.
A karate guy said to me recently "they taught us reverse punch, high block, then when we got to black belt they taught us jab, cross and hook" :)

People may say, "ah, but after many years form training, you become formless" - but if it takes so many years, why not start by being formless?

Take all the time you spend practicing solo movements and try them against a partner instead. Work everything freestyle. If you want to train your legs, then while you do it work in a half or full squat. Work slow, but work full contact.

FWIW I've got guys with no previous training who are progressing far quicker with this approach than with my previous approach of extensive form training.

cheers

Good post. How long have those guys been training?

[TjD]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Of course, takedowns can be defended, but IMO simply sinking your stance isn't the best way to do it.

totally agreed here. i definately wasn't saying ALL i do is drop my stance or kick my legs back. as a small guy i have to work not to be taken down. in the midst of dropping lower usually a fair bit of striking, redirection, leading and/or just plain getting the hell outta the way is going on.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"when you sprawl, both legs are back. In a front stance, I can still take one. Also, he was saying it in the context of fighting - you can't fight from a sprawl, so that's really not included in his statement or mine. low horse, front, etc. you can still go down."

fair enough ... i didnt see your responce to tjd before making my post. however, i'm still not seeing how being low makes you all that much more vulnerable. i can see the basic physics of it ... it gives you more leverage as my weight is where you need it ... closer to the fulcrum ... but i figure i'd be just as vulnerable to those same angles if my center was higher. i can see how dropping makes your job easier, but i dont see how raising my center makes me any more likely to defend a good take down. unless you count wobbeling about a bit more before falling.

also ... i know i dont understand takedowns all that well, but cant i step with my back leg while you enter to counter that weak angle (so that your basically trying to take me down straight on once again)?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

dam nit ... i missed more posts again.

guess thats why sevens the number one poster ... oh but wait ...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity

also ... i know i dont understand takedowns all that well, but cant i step with my back leg while you enter to counter that weak angle (so that your basically trying to take me down straight on once again)?

sure you can, but against agressive takedown attempts, I don't think you could do that before I change to the next throw/angle.

you step back to front stance (just sticking with the front stance example) as I come in for a double leg. I switch to a single leg and take you to the angle diagonal - I doubt you would get your back leg in position to cover that angle before the single leg got you.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by TjD


totally agreed here. i definately wasn't saying ALL i do is drop my stance or kick my legs back. as a small guy i have to work not to be taken down. in the midst of dropping lower usually a fair bit of striking, redirection, leading and/or just plain getting the hell outta the way is going on.

gotcha.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity
dam nit ... i missed more posts again.

guess thats why sevens the number one poster ... oh but wait ...

lol, nah, it's because I don't sleep much :D ... it's almost 4am here and I have to get up at 7:30 to get ready for work....

I'm getting some sleep in a few mins though.

[SevenStar]

Back to the principles thing for a min, I saw this quote on a bukti negara site (thanks, blackjack) and thought it would go perfect here:

"When you take the djurus by themselves, they have no value - they are only symbols. There is more to it than appears on the surface. You have different symbols - take for instance you have a bag of flour, when you do nothing with it, it is only a bag of flour. But if you know what to do with it you can make bread, cookies, and cakes. You have to understand how to use the flour the same as you have to understand how to use the djurus, so they become useful."

- paul de thouars

[bob10]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Good post. How long have those guys been training?

Up to around 18 months. The majority of guys have studied other arts before, anything from a few months up to dan grade and beyond. Kind of a double edged sword for experienced guys (I include myself).

On the one hand they have something from their previous training - in my own case for example, good root, sensitivity, issuing power - but also other things that inhibit them - in my case again lack of mobility, lack of ground training and general dumbness :)

Visitors are often surprised when they find out their training partner has only 6 months experience! It's also interesting how many people say they weren't "allowed" to do knife work until a particular grade or, even in a couple of cases that they'd never actually hit anyone before :eek:

cheers

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

beh ... its 5 here and i got to be up at 8 for a non stop day that'll end around 11pm. im goin to sleep too.

"I doubt you would get your back leg in position to cover that angle before the single leg got you."

ok, i can see that. i'm very inexperienced at defending take downs, but what you're saying there makes perfect sense.

but how does standing high make you less likely to be taken down? mobility maybe but most people who practice low all the time aren't exactly slow at that hight. not tryin to bust your balls here, i really don't get it.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

does it basically give you more of a chance to fall on them as they try it or something? i apologize for my advanced technical wording, but i'm sure you can look everything up if need be.

..... i really am going to sleep now.

i must .....

[SevenStar]

just mobility factor. take a judo match - see all of the throw attempts and evasions? It's a rule that you have to attack at least every 10 seconds or so, or you will be penalized. If they fought in low stances, that would never happen. you can be high and still have good control of your center, and maintain good mobility. I personally though can't maintain that same mobility in a lower stance.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by bob10


It's also interesting how many people say they weren't "allowed" to do knife work until a particular grade or, even in a couple of cases that they'd never actually hit anyone before :eek:

cheers

agreed.

[dezhen2001]

man you need to sleep - im at work :D

dawood

[Knifefighter]

I disagree with SS's assesment of being lower making you more vulnerable to takedowns.

A basic principle of setting up and defending takedowns in wrestling is to never let your opponent get lower than you are. Watch elite level competitve wrestlers and you will see some very low stances.

[apoweyn]

joedoe,


Kata/forms are nothing but a encyclopedia of techniques and a template for how you might move from one technqiue to another. To expect a fighter to use the sequences from kata/form exactly as they are taught is kinda unrealistic.

There has to be more to it than that though. Don't you think? I mean, if it's a template for how you move from one technique to another, how do we reconcile the idea that nobody actually moves that way from one technique to another?

And if it's an encyclopedia of techniques, how useful is it if the techniques (as used in a live environment) are different? How useful would a real encyclopedia be if it described something similar to various things, but not exactly like those things?

Personally, I can see the value of traditional forms as attribute builders. They exaggerate motions so that the principle sticks in your head and manifests itself even through less exaggerated movements. And they demand more in the way of leg strength, flexibility, etc. than you might need in the actual sparring, so that you'll have those physical qualities available to you. That makes sense to me.

What do you think?


Stuart B.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by SevenStar


Even if it has ground work and throwing, you don't want it low. sinking your weight like that only makes you easier to takedown.

Hmmm, my halfbaked comment on depth of stance seems to have caused lot of confusion so let try another shot.

What I should have said was sunk stance rather than low stance.

When people with weak legs do horsestance, their hip tend to stick out and body is not upright. Another thing which can't be seen from appearence is that they tend to sink their body weight into their heel rather than into yonquan point so if I sneek up to them from behind and pull them, they will tip over. That is they have low stance but not sunk stance.

If you have stuck out hip with weight sinking into heel, you are not only varunable to takedown but your footwork suffer as well because the range and directions in which you feet can move are limited by your ability to keep balance. People with weak legs have their hip out even when standing straight because they tend to lock their knee straight to support their body weight. The best example is those model with skiny leg and nice bottom. :)

Though having said in previous comment that one will not take horse stance posture in fighiting, you might get into horse stance (or hosestance like) posture when you are in standing grappling position or you take very wide step to avoid attack. At this point ability to maintain body structure which is sunk especially keeping tucked hip is far more difficult. When you have stuck out hip in standing grappling your stance is low but not sunk. You are practically leaning on to one direction. When the opponent switch the direction of pull or push you get easily tipped. Alternatively you might take wide step to avoid takedown, but the first takedown attempt could be a faint to take you down in second attempt when you take wide step to avoid his fist takedown and loose your stability.

Hence IMO, ability to have sunk posture is very important in term of takedown as well as footwork and probably one reason why horse stance is foundation exercise in many Kung Fu styles (my tajiquan style have single leg stance as a foundation exercise). Horse stance strenghten your small(or deep) muscles of your legs (especially one around your hip and knee) as in yoga exercise. One martial arts(sports) which put singular empasis on this sunk posture is sumo wrestling. Sumo wresler not only train in horse stance (Shiko), they lift each leg to the side more than 90 degree. Being able to have lower centre of gravity is single most important element in sumo but if and only if you can still have sunk posture. Also, one of Yang style taijiquan master is said to be able to perform entire taijiquan move under a table. Obviously, he was not training to fight under table nor, I assume, he ever started his fight in horse stance.

[No_Know]

"There has to be more to it than that though. Don't you think? I mean, if it's a template for how you move from one technique to another, how do we reconcile the idea that nobody actually moves that way from one technique to another?"

It is perhaps reconciled with the concept that we No_Know Everybody. Therefore, we cannot by direct experience Know how everybody moves.

Whomever, have you ever had would like to do something but didn't? If yes-ish, then perhaps you can realize someone preferring to use certain techniques, yet choosing to not.

For whatever reasons--Personally, I value my stuff that I do or am aware to do. I would rather not show my stuff because I am aware that there might be people who will mimick your good stuff and take it and wouldn't give me credit. Techniques are sellable on video cassettes and seminars. JKDers and Mixed Martial Artist types might do this thieving also.

When you have enough understanding it makes sense even if you haven't seen it before. It's merely something else to do that is a Variation of current awareness.

When you No_Know and cut the corners of understanding by I can do that and pick and choose. These would be my call the thievers.

"And if it's an encyclopedia of techniques, how useful is it if the techniques (as used in a live environment) are different? How useful would a real encyclopedia be if it described something similar to various things, but not exactly like those things?"

Perhaps, we look for one thing but don't find it under that which we looked. Yet Misfiled within that encyclopedia Is the answer/description which is sought.

"Attribute builders"? I think basically certainly.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I disagree with SS's assesment of being lower making you more vulnerable to takedowns.

A basic principle of setting up and defending takedowns in wrestling is to never let your opponent get lower than you are. Watch elite level competitve wrestlers and you will see some very low stances.

there's a difference in what's done there though - they are also keeping the legs away from you, right? with the sprawl and buck back, you are still keeping your legs away from me and your weight on me. If you are only in a front stance, that leg is mine to take, and once I have it, your foot work is done for, and your balance will be next. same if you are back weighted.

[No_Know]

Horse riding stance, I like it. It's a preferred stance. I don't need to move much more than adjust for 7*'s angle shifting.

Please note, the attack comes to me. I don't have to move around to attack, if you/they come to me.

Unless you have all experiences-ish, You No_Know. You merely go on likeliness/greater probability based from what you are willing to consciously believe.-ish

My leg might be exposed to being taken, but there Might be me having skill at shifting or standing. Every moment is just whether my skills and your skills along with the circumstances...who has the necessary peaks at key moments during our shifting or varied individual attempts.

We at KFO are in different enough parts of the World, that those who can prove one thing can't be at the same place to do it. It gets to be a group of theories, speculation and talk.
Truth might be there as we believe it. We might not believe the actual.
Hopefully, awareness comes about from any of this. And we go and train or practice and think.

[apoweyn]

No_Know,

Credit where credit is due. You're one of two people I've ever seen to spar in a way that resembles your kung fu.


Stuart B.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SevenStar


there's a difference in what's done there though - they are also keeping the legs away from you, right? with the sprawl and buck back, you are still keeping your legs away from me and your weight on me. If you are only in a front stance, that leg is mine to take, and once I have it, your foot work is done for, and your balance will be next. same if you are back weighted.

Lowering your stance lowers your center of gravity. The lower the center of gravity, the more stable the structure- whether you are talking about athletics or architecture.

The front leg forward makes it easier to grab the leg. That is the reason it is easier to take someone down, not the fact that he is lower. Move to a low, squared stance and you have a very stable base in which to keep from being taken down (of course if you add striking into the mix, it makes it harder to avoid being hit). The hardest takedowns are against those who are in a defensive, low, squared off stance. Sumo wrestlers are some of the hardest guys to take down and their legs in very close. However, they keep their center of gravity low and use a square stance.

Of course there is more to avoiding takedowns than just your stance. Hand control and arm work are just as important. As are knowing how to sprawl, throw in wizzzers, control the head, etc.

[Vapour]

SevenStar, do you have long leg? People with long legs would find it difficult to sink while in lower posture. My legs are short so I find it very easy to sink when resisting judo throw.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vapour
SevenStar, do you have long leg? People with long legs would find it difficult to sink while in lower posture. My legs are short so I find it very easy to sink when resisting judo throw.

it's not difficult at all to sink in judo. what's difficult is mobility - you have to move again. if you are sinking into low stances, as was talked about here, mobility is compromised.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Knifefighter


Lowering your stance lowers your center of gravity. The lower the center of gravity, the more stable the structure- whether you are talking about athletics or architecture.

I agree with that.

Of course there is more to avoiding takedowns than just your stance. Hand control and arm work are just as important. As are knowing how to sprawl, throw in wizzzers, control the head, etc.

that's what I'm referring to. when defending a takedown, you can't say "I'll just sink my weight into a horse stance, forward stance, etc. and expect it to work.

[Vapour]

Though it is much more prefarable if you can evade takedown attempt entirely, you do have to accept that you won't be able to dogde all the time. Likelyhood is that you are going to get caught one way or another and if you stand like a boxer you are going down. However, if one cannot sink in lower posture, it is much preferable to remain in high stance and remain sunk though being sunk and having lower centre of gravity is always preferable in takedown defence and offence.

As of mobility, the point I made is that there are difference between sunk posture and lower posture. In term of mobility, theoretically speaking, not only you have to be able to sink, you have to be able to sink into one leg and still maintain correct posture. Moreover, you have to have ability to switch your weight interchangeably between your right and left leg and still remain being sunk.

My instructor demonstrated to me this idea with little trick of his. Basically, he put his one leg forward and other leg behind and I push him from the front as hard as I can and he sunk (i.e. directed my push into ground through his back leg). This is not so difficult to do. He could lean toward me instead if he wanted anyway. However, he asked me to keep pushing. Next thing he did was to switch his both feet rapidly front and back and I still could not push him at all because he could switch his sunken leg immediately left and right.

Though it is true that keeping low posture may sacrifice your mobility if not sunk, this does not necessarily means high posture gurantee high mobility either (if not sunk). You might notice that if you want to take bigger step, your posture necessarily must go down. This become much more apparent when you are doing taijiquan because of its speed of form performance

Say you have your both leg in semi horse stance (bit wider than shoulder width) and you wan to switch to forward stance by shifting your right leg forward. When performing this step in taijiquan, I can directly shift my right leg to the position I want in straight line because I can sink my entire weight into left leg and still maintain balance. A beginner tajiquan student especially one with long leg have to bring their right leg back to centre near left leg then step forward because they can not maintain their balance. So while these beginner have long leg and higher stance, they are not necessrily mobile.

Idea is that if you can sink, being in lower stance allow you to have much wider step. It also allow you to step into rather unexpected direction. The best example is Diego Maladona (hope you know football, oops, soccer). He has extremly short leg and he was known to be extremely fast. But when someone is described as fast in football this does not mean that he can run 100 meter sprint race faster than anyone. In fact if you have short leg, you can say goodbye to any hope of winning medal in competitive running. What it means is that Maladona was extremely mobile. Though Carl Lewis may out run Maladona in straight line easily, he may not be able to catch Maladona's ball when Maladona move left right, forward, stop and suddenly forward and then backward. In fact Maladona may have been faster runner than Carl Lewis if it was 10 m race (that is if each start the race while standing).

If you can sink in lower stance of about traditional boxer stance while maintaining upright posture, you may run slow but you will be able to move fast which is the main aim of martial arts.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by apoweyn
joedoe,



There has to be more to it than that though. Don't you think? I mean, if it's a template for how you move from one technique to another, how do we reconcile the idea that nobody actually moves that way from one technique to another?

And if it's an encyclopedia of techniques, how useful is it if the techniques (as used in a live environment) are different? How useful would a real encyclopedia be if it described something similar to various things, but not exactly like those things?

Personally, I can see the value of traditional forms as attribute builders. They exaggerate motions so that the principle sticks in your head and manifests itself even through less exaggerated movements. And they demand more in the way of leg strength, flexibility, etc. than you might need in the actual sparring, so that you'll have those physical qualities available to you. That makes sense to me.

What do you think?


Stuart B.

The opportunity to use those techniques exactly in the manner given by the forms is rarely presented. If you are lucky you may get to use one technique and transition into the next one. I like to think back on how a form was developed - was it based on a real life fight that someone had, or did someone just come up with it? If the former, then it is unlikely that you will have exactly the same fight that they did. If the latter, then it is even more unlikely that you will get to use the sequence of movements exactly as in the form.

I guess I probably expressed myself badly. Really the form gives you a template of how the style might transition from one technique to the next. Or how techniques might be combined. But it does not mean that it lays down a rule like "this technique follows this technique after you move like this".

I agree with the statement of attribute building.

I also think the form provides other things as well (structure, posture, power generation, etc), but from a purely fighting perspective this is what I believe the forms provide.

[bob10]

I agree that forms can give you certain attributes - as you mention, posture, co-ordinated body movement etc.

But I believe they do it at the expense of strait jacketing you into a particular style of movement. Every form I trained in was replete with certain rules, which, while they may bring an element of structure and formality into the training, can also act as inhibitors.

Much better, IMHO, to train attributes either in solo exercises which can be varied, or, better still in free style situations against a good partner (which ain't always easy to find!)

Cheers

[apoweyn]

Joedoe,

I see what you're saying. And I do think that there's value in the sort of exaggerated motions that forms often feature. I guess it's something akin to when we train hubud drills in eskrima. Certainly, the incidences when you perform a full set of hubud in combat are slim to none. But the theory goes that if you know the full range of movement, then you have access to whatever parts of that range you need. So while you'll never drop into a deep front stance in combat, you can still drop into a rooted position that allows good hip rotation for punching, etc.

Personally, I don't train in forms anymore. But I did for many years, so I don't mean to discount them altogether.

Cheers.


Stuart

[Daredevil]

This may not be a popular idea, but it is based on my own experience, of having looked and looked and finally found it.

If your teacher can't apply the forms/techniques of his art in a manner that looks like the art, so that you can clearly see the link ("ah, so that's how you apply that technique"), in a free-flowing and not pre-arranged manner against resisting opponents, stop practising your art and keep looking. That is, if you want to learn the real art.

A disclaimer, so you won't all jump on me. Many times the stuff is more subtle, with less largish movement, when applied. Nevertheless, CMA fighting should still look pretty much like the the forms and not like the "kickboxing" most folks describe that they are seeing (and indeed, I've myself been to schools where this is the case).

Most CMA are not "kickboxing" (and I'm using the term loosely here and not referring to the actual competitive form and training methology of kickboxing) , but a distinct way of approaching combat.

Nothing wrong with practising other methods of combat though, but just be aware of what you want and what you're getting.

[joedoe]

bob & ap: Ultimately it comes down to how you train (again, surprise surprise). If you do not learn how to apply your form, or test your form in any way other than correct positioning etc, then the form is little more than a dance. If you are able to test your form (in our school we call it checking) and your teacher can show you the application of the form, then there is real value in it.

[No_Know]

SevenStar, is making mobility in low postures equal to speed of mobility in higher postures as part of training out of the question?

Vapour, that transition seems a vulnerable moment when fully weighting one leg and shifting the other leg. Even if you could go from semi-horse riding to forward with the empty leg directly (especially), this seems suceptible to choking your step.

Please note that your Instructor kept the same stance, merely different legs. If you pushed when your instructor had no feet on the ground or barely touching, then I might think more of that than holding off a push from a solid stance.

Shifting His weight forward while He shifted feet seems to neutralize your push with His weight until He sets-up to channel your force.

If It's New to you, then Awesome. Learn! Let it sink in. Be amazed. Pretty nifty stuff. Absorb what you can. Keep learning. Awesome.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by ArrowFists
[
I agree once again. I actually have a book about shotokan bunkai (applications) and it disects every form and shows how each move can be used in an encounter. The problem is that most people aren't taught the applications to their kata, and frankly, I've never seen ANYONE break into a kata during a sparring competiton, or when someone's coming to beat them down. [/B]

Kata is a template, a general outline. It gives you multiple options for basic attacks and positioning. Each movement or segment is a different offensive/ defensive technique. It teaches through repetition and muscle memory. If you know real karate or chuan fa, you wouldn't look like a kickboxer when you fought for real, on the street. You would look like a decisive, gross motor movement entity. Hard to explain, but I can say that the "snap shot" effect of self-preservation is nothing like the "chess match" that is kumite/randori (sparring).

When you spar, which was an aspect of karate training that wasn't introduced until the 20th century, you will look like a kickboxer, because that is the intent of sparring- safe fun, i.e.: Kickboxing. A Judo guy doing randori complete with newaza, looks very different fron BJJ groundfighting/sparring. Not only because BJJ is a simplified version of an art that was more combat oriented (early Kodokan Judo), but also because the relation between Judo and BJJ is now quite distant. Intent, man, intent.

The same can be said for Karate sparring. Sabaki, K1 almost anything except Shidokan, are kicking techs (usually nonkarate/chuan fa "chambered" kicks) mixed with some boxing and a few "karate" techs. If you compare any Shotokan or Wado Ryu which are kumite intensive arts, to true Okinawan karate they are very NOT alike. The same can be said about most Kyokushinkai, too. If I were to spar someone I would kick their legs, spearhand their throat, throw them by their hair and stomp 'em, get them in a tuite armbar or submission; ya' know? Multiple strikes and attacks from all angles. How real fights are. It would not be good for the kickboxer because the intent of real karate doesn't allow for "holding back". Whatsoever. 'Nawmean?

Sparring is all the same because it ain't real, it's just a game...

[Vapour]

Originally posted by No_Know
SevenStar, is making mobility in low postures equal to speed of mobility in higher postures as part of training out of the question?

Vapour, that transition seems a vulnerable moment when fully weighting one leg and shifting the other leg. Even if you could go from semi-horse riding to forward with the empty leg directly (especially), this seems suceptible to choking your step.

Please note that your Instructor kept the same stance, merely different legs. If you pushed when your instructor had no feet on the ground or barely touching, then I might think more of that than holding off a push from a solid stance.

Shifting His weight forward while He shifted feet seems to neutralize your push with His weight until He sets-up to channel your force.

If It's New to you, then Awesome. Learn! Let it sink in. Be amazed. Pretty nifty stuff. Absorb what you can. Keep learning. Awesome.

I gurantee you that my instructor did not shift his weight forward when he switched his feet as I was the one pushing him continuously. What he did was to absorb my push completely in back leg (say it is left leg in this instance) which free his front right leg. Front right leg then move to the side of back leg then he redirect my push into right leg which free his left leg to step forward. He can do the same trick by redirecting my push into front leg and let back leg step forward. Anyone can do this if done slowly though redirecting push into front leg is hard. His skill was in doing this in very rapid speed while continuously being pushed.

I didn't understand the meaning of demonstration until this thread. One obvious application is when you are in standing grappling hold. Ability to redirect force into only one leg hence freeing other leg to move to more advantageous position rapidly is very useful takedown defence or for that matter takedown offence. In taijiquan, double weighting into both legs is considered as nono.

As of weight distribution, we train this 99/1 weight distribution in the performance of form in our style of taijiquan (other style has 70/30 or 60/40 weight distribution). However, when we spar, our weight distribution in standing posture is 51/49 because the form is merely to train one to get the feel of switch rather than actual technique to be performed.

At advance level, you don't really force oneself to lower stance either.

[No_Know]

If you got something out of it, then good.

He does sound skilled. That's good fortune for both of you.

[Robinf]

Vapour,

That sounds like it would have helped me last night. Thanks for the detailed description. I kept getting pushed down. Much of the time, I was tripped, but on occassion a good push sent me down. I took most of those guys with me and pinned them once we hit the floor. I have to admit, that was the most fun I've had sparring in Kung Fu in a long time.

Robin

[Vapour]

One thing I forgot to add. If you tuck your hip without compensating this by bending your knee, you are actually far more unstable because you are basically bending backward. So you need strong leg before being able to have good upright posture.