chum kiu lopsidedness

[TjD]

my lineages chum kiu (and i think most ip man wing chun) gets lopsided on the third section.

theres only one retreating step (before you turn into a cat stance) - which i feel is an extremely valuable piece of footwork, and only one crescent kick.

the best i've heard is that it reminds us to practice each motion separately (but i still think this is some bulldookie). are there any other reasons for this lopsidedness?

do any lineages chum kiu's do these motions with both legs?

[EvolvingPower]

theres only one retreating step (before you turn into a cat stance) - which i feel is an extremely valuable piece of footwork, and only one crescent kick.

the best i've heard is that it reminds us to practice each motion separately (but i still think this is some bulldookie). are there any other reasons for this lopsidedness?

__________

Hi!

In Wing Chun, you have to remember that there are purposes for the forms which is very different from that of other arts.

The main purpose is to teach the structure for close range combat and transition between movents as fast as posible.

For footwork, you do footwork drills (bil bo, kau bo, etc.), then add the entries (pak da, gaun da, etc.).

The purpose is not to simulate combat against another person. We have chi sao and the Dummy for that. Against a Ghost (i.e. no one) is for stressing structure and the drills are for the real world application and sensitivity.

So in the forms we're not going back and forth or dodging or side steping or triangle seping or moving around.

So you can just take the forms, break them into little pieces and do 2 man drills (or on the Dummy) to really get it. The forms are like Drill Generators. Really analize every movement and make a drill out of it, and you will find many curriculums of Wing Chun are just that.

One of my lineages just does the other side, as do I, so that both sides are trained. There is no reason not to do this.

[wingchunalex]

I wouldn't worry too much about it.

In my oppinion the forms are just catologs of wing chun movements. the forms teach you the movements.

its in the rest of the training that wing chun is developed into a useable system.

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by TjD
my lineages chum kiu (and i think most ip man wing chun) gets lopsided on the third section.

theres only one retreating step (before you turn into a cat stance) - which i feel is an extremely valuable piece of footwork, and only one crescent kick.

the best i've heard is that it reminds us to practice each motion separately (but i still think this is some bulldookie). are there any other reasons for this lopsidedness?

do any lineages chum kiu's do these motions with both legs?

I will take time out to anwer this question since it was one I pondered myself before finding the answers to. There is only one slanting thrust kick in the WT form as well (to the left hand side).

The reason as described in Leung Tings "Chum Kiu" book is as follows:

" The slant thrusting-kick is a 'sneaky technique' designed to attack the opponent by surprise. Like the backward pinning hand in the Siu-Nim-tau set, it is rarely applied in normal circumstances. If people are normally good at using the right arm and the right leg to attack and defend and then we practice this movement with both legs, most practitioners will automatically apply the right foot in urgent situations due to their natural habits. Therfore our founder does not teach us the right slant thrusting kick to 'force' us to practice the left leg only (normally the weaker leg). Considering this, if the WingTsun practitioner can apply a slant thrusting kick to the left side skillfully which is actually 'abnormal' to most people, this would certainly make this technique a 'surprise attack'. This is the main reason we have only one slant-thrusting kick to the left side in Chum Kiu."

[[Censored]]

Why do the forms make 90% of their movements to both sides, but not 100%? I've never found a sensible reason for this.

Of course the left and right sides of the body are not identical. But by acknowledging this, we are straying into "WC for health" territory, and we all know correct WC is kuen faat only. :rolleyes:

About 20% of the time, I do the forms with the left and right sides exchanged.

[AndrewS]

Personally, I like one of my old teacher's explanations- his line 'I kinda figured Ng Mui had a bad right hip'

Makes as much sense as anything, and personally, I prefer to take pieces out of the form and work them to death, both sides, so the 'lopsidedness' goes away in my practice anyway.

Andrew

[kj]

Originally posted by AndrewS
Personally, I like one of my old teacher's explanations- his line 'I kinda figured Ng Mui had a bad right hip'

LOL, I like that.

Similarly, albeit not as humorous, I heard it explained as a way to change direction in chum kiu. The set creators afforded us equal sided practice in the dummy set. I picture the creators as geniuses, yet not anal retentive at the expense of pragmatism, so I can live with this. Or the bad hip explanation. :D

As for practicing on both sides independently outside the framework of the set, sits fine with me; the more the better.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[anerlich]

CK in my lineage dies not include a crescent kick or the asymmetry you mention.

I've heard it said that we start with the left side because it is weaker and more unco for most people - though I can't really accept this as valid, especially since I am a leftie myself.

Most other styles have forms which are assymmetrical.

Strictly speaking, in my lineage anyway, the dummy sets are not perfectly symmetrical either - many have three moves on one side and two on the other, one side has slightly different movements, etc.

My instructor and si hing have advocated to me the value of doing forms reversed, in different sequences, insude out, back to front and upside down.

IMO it is illusory to think that the particular sequence of movements has some sort of profound significance. They're just movement sequences put together in a way which is reasonably logical and easy to remember.

WC advocates a symmetrical approach, but many styles do not - JKD and western boxing being two such examples of the latter.

[taltos]

Forms, to me, are just sequences of movements designed to efficiently reinforce the underlying principles of the art. As such, they really don't have to be symmetrical. The structure of a punch, or a kick, or a turn, or whatever is the same regardless of which hand or foot is executing it. Symmetrical training (making sure all body parts understand it equally well) is what drilling is for.

The version of the Yip Man pole that we play at my kwoon only plays in one direction, but you can bet we drill and chi-kwan both sides, and both hands, equally. Rene had mentioned previously a story about the Knives, where the form had (I think) three steps forward and no steps back (or similar). The sequence of movements can only serve to train the principle, and that can be done in 1 step, or 5, or 1000.

The forms just serve to remind you of the structure and principles that should be there when there is resistance.

At least, IMHO.

-Levi

[Xiao3 Meng4]

A quick refresher on Yin Yang:

Yin and Yang are relative opposite values - that is, they simultaneously represent the ideas of polarity and inter-relatedness. Neither one is an absolute - the utmost of each is considered to have a small amount of the other.

Yin is considered to be the structive aspect of phenomena. This defines a quality which is directly perceptible.

Yang is considered to be the active aspect of phenomena. This defines a quality which is not directly observed. Yang energy is indirectly observed through Yin. (ie wind is observed through its effects)

The fundamental relationships of Yin and Yang are:
relative opposites (yang = function, yin = structure)
mutually dependent (one cannot exist without the other)
mutually transforming (night turns to day turns to night)
mutually balancing (as one changes, the other simultaneously heads for the new balance point)

In Chinese physiology, the left side of the body is considered Yang, whilst the right side is considered to be Yin.

OK. Back to Wing Chun.

Chum Kiu has both yin and yang aspects to teach (as of course do the other Wing Chun forms.) In the case of the 3rd section footwork, the right foot steps back (yin) and the left foot kicks back (yang.)

In terms of Yin Yang, one is being taught the structure and placement of one's root with the right foot (yin), and the possible manifestation of backwards momentum with the left foot (yang.)
The kick is obviously more yang than the step, however each has the seed of the other within it. The step back with the right foot could manifest as a vicious heel plant to someone's instep, and the kick back with the left foot could be a repositioning of one's balance. Isn't there a Kuen Kuit that states "every kick is a step, every step is a kick"? In Chum Kiu, this is represented by the adherence of the yin lessons to the yin aspect of physiology, and the adherence of the yang to the yang.

Xiao3 Meng4

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I forgot to mention a fundamental thing - Yin is receding, Yang is advancing - In the form, we step back with our right (yin) foot - that is, we recede. We then kick with our left (yang) foot - that is, we advance.

XM

[burnsypoo]

anyone have a right kick in their BJD form?

[yylee]

one day Yip Man was approached by one of his students:

student: "sifu, sifu, how come Chum Kiu ends with a left kick, shouldn't there be a right kick to make it symetric?"

Yip: "Hmmm.... if you train your left kick good, your right leg will be good automatically. Try it if you don't believe me".



So I guess the motor control programming can transfer from the right brain hemisphere to the left at some point. So training one side can benefit the other automatically.

But why left side preference?

We are taught that (if you are right-handed like me) left side is more of a "Yee Sik"(intent) side, which is more relax and can be mobilized by one's intent more easily. The right side, however, is call the "muscle" side which is more tense in general and tends to use brute local muscle forces more easily.

I know you may disagree, but this is true for me :) :)

Come to think of it, the human body is not symmetric. The heart is more skewed towards the left. So may be there are other reasons for doing the left hand side first.....

[Marky]

Hiya,

"I've heard it said that we start with the left side because it is weaker and more unco for most people - though I can't really accept this as valid, especially since I am a leftie myself." Anerlich

In China, all children are forced to be right-handed. A woman who taught me to read and write Chinese was always amazed that I was left-handed, and I never knew why until she told me about that.

[[Censored]]

So I guess the motor control programming can transfer from the right brain hemisphere to the left at some point. So training one side can benefit the other automatically.

Maybe for coordination. Not for strength and flexibility, which are definitely requirements for that particular kick IME.

[TjD]

good replies :)

lately, i've just been throwing in an additional kick and step back with the opposing legs into my chum kiu... perhaps sacriledge and *******izing the form, but it makes me fell better :D


as to doing the kick with the left improving the right, my right kick does seem just as strong as my left, and i doubt my extra practice of the right kick has come close to the amount of practice i've put into the left. mabye there is something to be said for this.


to burnyspoo:
of the little bit of the bat jaam do that i know (only the first two sections - been getting really drilled on them :D ) theres at least one right kick (the one our form opens with). this isn't very similar to the lone left kick in chum kiu however.

[anerlich]

"So I guess the motor control programming can transfer from the right brain hemisphere to the left at some point. So training one side can benefit the other automatically."

It still would make more sense to put the other kick in if bilateral development were your goal. since 90+% of the forms are done blaterally, presumably for that reason, why not do the extra kick?

I don't beleive there's anything particularly profound about the sequence of techniques in the form and certainly no form of Bible Code.

Any anyway, my observations indicate this hypothesis to be highly questionable. There maybe some small transfer of skill, but no way anywhere near as much as would occur with bilateral training. How many guitarists do you know who cn play as well (or at all) with the instrument the wrong way around? some of this is intellectual, sure, but most of guitar playing IMO is getting the fingers to work smoothly and rapidly enough - a physical skill.

Most students I've seen kick way better with one leg to start off with, and only get the other leg to a comparable level via hard training on the less coordinated side. Sometimes I feel that learning a particular kick with one leg feels as if it were a different skill from kicking with the other.

[yuanfen]

Andrew check your email via kfo?
<joy@azwingchun.com>

[anerlich]

joy,

my email's been out of commission for a few days. If it's urgent, try anerlich@yahoo.com.