Something everyone should read

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Excellent article that explains quite a bit. Everyone should read this especially WL and ex-WL people. Consider yourself lucky if you're accepted but make the best of what you get if you don't.

click here (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=324)

Thoughts on this?

[Robinf]

On of the tenants:
Followers are not allowed to cripple others with the martial arts.

What are you supposed to do then if you need to protect yourself?

Although, I find the article interesting and understand the point of view. It is well spoken.

There is a lot of positive to waiting and being patient.

Many people want everything and they want it now. They don't see or understand any value in patience and waiting. The longer I'm working on a technique the better I understand it, and the better I get at it and the better I can improvise with it and something else.

Actually, I rather like the idea.

[flem]

its a shame really that our commercialized arts are unable to follow such standards. to me it confirms a thought that i have had for a long time and that is that we may think we know who is best, but the real masters have no desire for the limelight. even further, if this article is based on the present, whole schools may have superior methods that most stay unaware of.

[dwid]

its a shame really that our commercialized arts are unable to follow such standards.

The fact is, like it or not, it is unfair to charge a student money if you intend to teach at this slow of a pace.

I understand the value of patience and taking your time, but charging a student, say, 50 bucks a month to spend 3 solid years perfecting one technique will only guarantee that you get students who are gullible. It is totally unfair to expect someone to put up with this just because you know the value of the technique.

[Water Dragon]

I think the article is making a big deal out of nothing. I've made it "in the door" in two schools. Both experiences were the same. You start taking classes and you practice. After a while, you get better. You practice, you get better, they show you something else.

Somewhwere along the line, they start showing you stuff, which isn't really any different than the other stuff you've been shown, but they tell you, "But don't show this to anyone."

That's about the same time you start getting invited to hang out more, you begin to become responsible for making sure the Juniors understand what's going on, and you start to be the demo dummy for your teacher.

I've never been through a kowtow (sp?) Never had to make promises or live by some code, never had to play dojo boy for the master. If I did, I would've left. That's not what martial arts are to me. The only requirement placed on me was to be a good person.

I'm sure I've been watched to make sure I'm not a complete @sshole, but that's about it.

To quote my first Teacher, "There are no secrets in martial arts, but sometimes you're just not ready for the next step yet."

[Vapour]

I'm in a school which has closed door thing for Neigon. There are even initiation ritual for this thing. However, as long as one shows decent commitment, there are no problem in me or anyother becoming closed door student.

Problem is that this closed door system as well as grading syllabus in general could easily become mean to control students.

Many kung fu styles died out because it was kept as a family system or only taught to very select few.

[red5angel]

intersting, and very asian in its view points. Which isn't bad mind you.

On the teacher/master - indoor/outdoor thing. I can understand why some people would want to do it that way. No one wants to waste time teaching in depth skill to someone who doesn't have the patience or the energy to do it properly. I don't think it's necessary though. A close freindly relationship works, and even the old chinese guys do it this way from time to time. For some I think it is more a marketing trick then anything else really.

Patience is paramount in TMA, especially CMA. I really believe this but I find a lot of westerners, and some easterners aren't buying into it. The problem I see is that you can half a$$ it and it appears to work just fine. Most of it would work with a basic understanding against untrained opponents, in general. So why bother to really master it? So I take alot of TMA people with a grain of salt when they start talking about studying an art for so long or how much they know. What you know an dhow long you have been practicing are just small aspects of what you really can do.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

flem,
You're right, there's a lot of unadvertised-invitation-only schools and Masters that keep their techniques handed down to only a few. Of the advertised ones there seems to be indoor and outdoor students. That doesn't mean what you learn as an outdoor student is crap. You jus aren't getting the real 'gems'.

MC is traditional. He may have been one of the first to teach outsiders but that doesn't mean he didn't hold anything back. I don't know what it takes to make it to the inside but apparently not many get there. Some give up. Others stay but will never get there. Some think nobody but family will ever get there. The question is, if anybody gets there will they tell? If it happened to me I'm sure I would not admit to it because that would certainly stir up controversy.

dwid,
What's a fare pace? Is that a good pace for everyone? Western way of thinking is 'I pay you money, you give me the goods' but that's not exactly how it works. Maybe for outdoor students at a commercial school. When you sign up you're trusting your Sifu to train you how he see fit.

Water Dragon,
Were you really "in the door" at 2 schools? If you were in the door at one school why did you leave? Just wondering because that seems to be quite an accomplishment. And if true then being accepted as an indoor student and then leaving most likely made it more difficult for others. The first Master will be less likely to trust anyone whenever that happens. I see that as happening in Wah Lum. Master Chan chose his disciples long ago and they're all gone. So much for loyalty. Unfortunately, as far as I know, there is zero chance of anyone with him now having an opportunity like that. And that also sends students 'out the door'. Seems to me that I'd feel a tremendous obligation to stay if I was accepted in like that. That's not something I'd want to give up. Sounds like you may have had a bad experience or two.

Robinf,
Better to know a few techniques really well than knowing a lot of techniques a little.


So should everything be available for a monetary price?

[Daredevil]

Personally, I think it's up to the teacher to decide how he teaches and what kind and level of organization he wants to maintain. He is the man with the skill and he is doing folks a big favor in teaching them.

Students will come and they'll see for themselves if this is a master worth following, if his skills are good and if what he expects from his students is fair in their mind. If they don't like what they see, they can move on.

Simple and the way of the world. Of course, both teachers and students should be respectful and keep in mind decency, but ultimately it's up to the interplay of the two. Some folks want strict discipline, some folks want a lax and a casual atmosphere. I'm grateful the world caters to all types.

I've been in schools with varying levels of formality and divisions between in-door and out-door students. I have found my current situation best to my liking. The atmosphere is pretty casual and everybody is friends with each other and there are not too much rituals. I wouldn't object to them and in fact would sincerely imbue any ritual with more than just empty meaning, exactly because of the respectful and not-too-overly-dogmatic manner in which things are conducted. But that, is just how I feel about it. I don't think there is one correct way or that there even should be.

[Water Dragon]

The reason I left my first teacher is because I moved. When I called him to let him know I had found a Shuai Chiao school, he told me not to pass up the opportunity. I still see him once or twice a year and talk to him a few times more. When I do show up, he still hands me the beginners and it is still my responsibility to help them out.

In fact, I may be moving again this summer and have informed my teacher. His reply? "I am going to write you one helluva recomendation letter." He will always be known as "teacher" to me as well, even though I wont be able to study with him.

Being in the door is all about respect, loyalty, and friendship. It's not about Master/Disciple, Yes Sir, No Sir, or any of that.

[shaolinboxer]

"Followers are not allowed to engage in rape. They shall be smartly dressed. "

LOL

Hoooooooooboy. :)

Gimme a break.

He should also include

999. Members must must not eat live children.

[Royal Dragon]

That's right, if you are going to eat children, you must Kill them first. :D

[KC Elbows]

First, relatively few of the reknowned 'ancient masters' stuck with one teacher- most learned from a number of people, with some notable exceptions. Being accepted in the door doesn't mean leaving the school would be a betrayal. It could mean it's your time to make your own way. The fact is, being inside the door is totally a two way street- usually those in the door spend a lot of their time in class helping run class, coming up with lesson plans, etc.

As for money, I don't think it's all about money, but when you are charging people and not giving the agreed upon service, you're being dishonest.

Some people make such a big deal about what they teach to people. Now, if someone's a major jerk and an assault waiting to happen, then most good teachers will ask them to leave. Other than that, all the good teachers I've seen teach everyone all that they can learn, because they like teaching. The bad students don't have to have knowledge kept back from them, they just don't practice as much. All this bunk about holding stuff back is purposeless. If they aren't ready, they won't understand it. If they are, they will. I mean, a good teacher won't try to teach advanced techniques to beginners, but they will teach the fundamentals, and that's what makes up the advanced techniques anyway. But the teacher doesn't hold these things back to keep you out of the inner circle, they'll do it so that the student won't get confused by advanced material in a beginners level course.

On the flip side, some of the worst teachers I've met rely on mystique, and let students think they're masters when they're just teachers. They hold stuff back because they don't have much to give and won't brook competition, and so they do a **** poor job of teaching their art to a new generation, and so they fail their art. They make up forms and act like they're the traditional forms, they hardly practice themselves, etc.

As an example, I consider non-chinese who are in the inner circle to masters who clearly don't believe non-chinese can do kung fu right about the lamest martial artists alive next to their bigotted masters. They universally suck, because they are only on the inside in their heads, meanwhile, their teachers bad mouth their ancestry, and they believe it, or just take it because 'master is so wise'. Poppy****. I've met so many of these masters and students who fall for that. Their masters usually suck too, because they don't create any competition for themselves, they just teach their students half assed and wonder why none of them are any good. Then their teacher uses his own crappy teaching to justify his assessment of non-chinese(talking chinese here in relation to kung fu, it's not just the chinese who do this). Then they blame it all on americans not understanding the cantonese character for seagull.

Not knocking being on the inside, it's not exactly an asian invention, it's just an organized version of a natural progression. Stick by a style and teacher, and you will end up helping teach, and you'll learn advanced stuff, because if you're helping teach, you need to learn advanced stuff, it works out for you, for your teacher, and for your school, eventually you get to the point where it's time you strike out on your own, and eventually you've got long term good students of your own.

On the flip side, take one basic from, just one form, full contact fight people from different styles with the moves from it once a month for ten years, training like a fighter, and you'll be a better fighter than most of those guys taking closed door students with their 378 forms and supposedly ancient rituals and so forth, and can tell people a lot more about fighting than most of them can.

I'm not slamming forms either, just saying that some of these guys forming inner circles around them aren't even good, they just supplant lots of material with quality material.

Just because someone gets called sifu, master, or grandmaster doesn't exempt them from being a wank. And just because a kung fu teacher uses some ancient martial confucian code stuff doesn't mean that he'll be able to stop bullies giving you wedgies either. Or stop people giving him wedgies either.

[Water Dragon]

KC Elbows is correct

[Losttrak]

The concept is, I suppose, valid but...

That is just the first Tan Tui... sad to jump thru soo many hoops for something many students learn as their first form.

[Guile]

Originally posted by KC Elbows


As As an example, I consider non-chinese who are in the inner circle to masters who clearly don't believe non-chinese can do kung fu right about the lamest martial artists alive next to their bigotted masters. They universally suck,
......

Their masters usually suck too, .


Then if they're lucky they learn JKD and show their "master" some real stuff:D

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

my school is closed door. you only get in on a recomendation and then its only on a trial basis. at one time, my sifu had 9 schools in the area. he would go to 2 or 3 schools every single day except sunday. i'm not sure if he burnt himself out or genuinely hated the fact no one stuck with him long enough to learn anything, but he eventually gave the guys who had been with him a while the option to pack it all up and train at his house. they also had the option to keep going the way things were, but everyone thought the private teaching would be way better. and i'd have to say it is. not because it makes me feel special, or because im learning "secrets," but because i dont have to share my sifu with succubuses .... those who suck up his time for their entertainment and drain it away from the rest of us.

all that being said i thought the artical was pretty fu cking lame.

[Robinf]

I'm still held up on the tenant that you can't use your martial art to harm anyone (see my earlier post for the direct quote). What about in self-defense?



Some systems have these kinds of failsafes to them that weed out people who won't stick with it so they don't detract too much attention. One system, the very first form you learn is just stringing together stances. Try doing that for a few weeks when you're just starting and you're eager to "learn kung fu." These stances are the foundations and are necessary to learn and practice, but when you're just starting, you don't see that.

However, I found teaching these folks very valuable. It made me work harder and become a better teacher--so now that I'm starting to teach those who we believe will stay, I'm much better and help them stay.

[flem]

kc,

i like it, especially the wedgie part, you know properly applied...but wait thats not in two man sets i don't want to give it away

[SaMantis]

Robinf,

Interesting point about new students and MA stances. I had a friend who signed up for WL with me and left after 2 months because he hated stance training and wanted to fight right away. Other beginners left for similar reasons -- I think less than half the folks I started with are still training. But the group that remains is very focused and trains hard, and naturally the instructors spend more time with them.

[Guile]

SaMantis

What do you guys train?
Do you just do forms? Or are you guys actually fighting. (freestyle). If not, then it was best for them to find their own way.

[SaMantis]

Wah Lum doesn't teach any fighting straight off -- for the first 3-4 months or so. Students can take continuous sparring as a separate class (no extra charge) after their first test.

I agree, if all someone wants to do is fight, they're better off moving on and finding a style that meets their needs.

[yu shan]

SaM

We see them come and go, only the strong survive. I understand your story of training and fighting. Some folks come in with this "all I want to do is learn how to kick ass" but do not want to learn "traditional" ya know, pain and suffering...long term.

Why worry about getting to the inside? And loyalty is a two-way street...maybe the hierarchy is in the wrong. Ever thought about that?

[scotty1]

"Being in the door is all about respect, loyalty, and friendship. It's not about Master/Disciple, Yes Sir, No Sir, or any of that."

I like that.

[Brad]

Yu Shan said:


Why worry about getting to the inside? And loyalty is a two-way street...maybe the hierarchy is in the wrong. Ever thought about that?

I agree that often times this is the case. A lot of times certain hierarchy systems seem to be in place for no other reason than to boost the "teacher's" ego. Talk of indoor students learning secret techniques, and "the real stuff" while the rest are taught incompletely, drives me nutz. There shouldn't be any "secrets" just a clear order of progression. In order to get any more "advanced" techniques to work you have to master the basics anyway with hard work and repetition, which will naturally weed out those who don't have what it takes. Like KC said:


The bad students don't have to have knowledge kept back from them, they just don't practice as much.

[NorthernMantis]

Yu shan is right. Not everyone is willing to put up with all the hard work and training but it pays off at the end. It's good to build up a solid foundation from the start. The people who yu shan and SaM talked about are usually the ones claiming that kung fu doesn't work. It's their fault that they didn't stick with it but there are exeptions with teachers to teach improperly. However in the end I love it that few remain since those are the ones on the right path.

Oh and about herarchy. China has always had some type of hierarchy in one form another. It can be seen in the their families and social class and political. It's just adifferent culture I guess.