Hung Mun and Tai Tzu Kuen [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Savi

04-03-2003, 12:21 AM

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
WC from Shaolin was based on new ways of thinking.

-David
That wouldn't be in reference to a 'paradigm shift,' would it David? :) :) :)

My take on this thread...

(DNA = techniques) or (DNA = mental / technical info)?

Researching martial DNA requires a scholastic analysis into the particular subject under study. What do I mean? Well, keep in mind that Wing Chun is based on philosophies, principles, concepts and strategy. That is the DNA of WC, not its techniques! And if that is the case should a researcher then be researching those things, as opposed to some techniques or outward expression of such? There are many animal styles, in principle, concept, and strategy which are very similar to Wing Chun. In operation and form, it is quite different.

However, this is a reflection of the focus on technical information rather than mechanical information. Looking at the techniques (mechanical information) of the subject under study is not the way to go.

As an example: a mule resembles a horse. A mule also resembles a donkey. Which one is it??? People waste so much time chasing techniques and expecting or hoping that is the most efficient way to find their mother!

With that said, if one is truly passionate about finding the roots of Wing Chun, it is better suited that one must first be (or become) a scholar of their own Wing Chun, and follow the scholarly path of research on technical information to achieve maximum results for their search. Bottom line, looks aren't everything - which seems to be the focus on this thread.

Smile yo!
-Savi.

By the way David (desertwingchun2), as we all know, a Mule comes from a female horse (mating with a male donkey). But Mule also means a stubborn person. :)

Phenix

04-03-2003, 02:55 AM

Great! everyone speak up. great and you all can show your evidents now to prove your points.
Attacking me is great also.
But remember you can't change the history facts and evidents.
Disregards of me or who present them. :D

Can you all show evidents please? Since The Hung Mun of Taiwan has the legacy.....

By the way, Taiwan has published two books on Hung Mun and who is who.

desertwingchun2, Rolling Hand,

Jim has answer your question in different post. It seems that you guys must not be attentive of have difficulties to understand english problem like me.

And Rolling Hand, where is your evidents to support your belive?
Talk is cheap right? LOL (joking)

Savi,

Emei 12 zhuang is as old as 700/800 years old.
White Crane from Fujian is being around 1660's.

So what paradigm shift do you belive which surpassed these two system? In addition, the 12 Zhuang has a direct link to Esoteric Buddhism, with its legacy..... I will be really happy to hear your part of hypothesis and evidents.

Please kindly shows your evidents of research. You might have good points.

I belive you knows alots about ---- Researching martial DNA requires a scholastic analysis into the particular subject under study.

And, as you know,
The bottom line is in DNA, Platform, Kuen Kuit, Legacy..... so let's get into the "beef" after everyone beating at me. Show your evidents to prove your points. with cross field pictures, kuen kuit.... as you like it.

Hey guys,

I can be wrong.
Don't have to get mad or angry at me and have fear and starts attacking me?
just show me evidents that I am wrong.
And I can agree with you all.

Remember , Alice has to take the Yellow brick road to ..... and back to kansas? otherwise it is still in the wonderland. :D

Hope that your next post is showing evidents.

Thank you everyone. Don't get too serious. Get some humor. Bottom line, I can be right or wrong. and we all can't change the facts. it is only a matter of time to prove I am wrong and you are right. If the facts are in your side. :D

Phenix

04-03-2003, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by Mckind13
I go away for a month or so and nothing changes...

I saw the article and saw the Baat Jam Dao in the pictures. Interesting.

During the period of time, was it there a lot of migration to and from Taiwan from Southern China?

David

Hi David,

You see, there might also be a connection between Taiwan and Tien Chun Dang of Shang hai....

One of the scholar of Taiwan Nan Huai_jing also shown up in a Hung Mun book... So there is alots of information....

By the way, the kuen they practiced is a Big Open Big Close type if I am not wrong. This is a different Flatform, IMHO, to SLT which is small.... Let's see How SAVI prove to us about these paradigm shift from BIG to SMALL. And why still the TaiWan Hung Mun practiced the BIg type today? Let's see how SAVI explain this.
Savi might have a great point.
May be just may be Savi will say his art was belongs to higher position people in Hung Mun. And then Savi shows his Hung MUn Code to prove it. That is a very reasonable way.

t_niehoff

04-03-2003, 06:04 AM

DNA, "paradigm shift", Hung Mun, Shaolin, Ch'an, lineage, grandmasters, masters, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyone can claim anything. In the end, there is only one question that interests me: can the person making a claim actually make what they do work against a large, skilled, genuinely resisting opponent? If they can, then IMO they have something worth listening to; if not, they are wasting my time. And there is only one way to tell whether they can make it work -- and that's *not* by just taking their word for it or accepting their "reputation" or by demonstrations against cooperative stuntmen -- but only by seeing them actually do what they claim they can do against *skilled, resisting opponents*. This is the only "qualification" that matters -- anything else is BS. If someone makes claims but won't prove that essential qualification, then IME their refusal says that they can't do what they say they can do. So let's stop the war of buzzwords. TN

Terence

Phenix

04-03-2003, 09:09 AM

Hi Terence,

The Tai Ping Lost to General Zhen Kuo-Fan of Qing.
That shows how much the belive and technics of the Tai Ping can last. So Qing won in the real fight.

For me, people can play denial.... Which is ok.

Savi

04-03-2003, 09:13 AM

Hi Hendrik,

1) I'm glad that you agree with me on some points. Firstly being that of the 'type' of DNA which should be researched and cross-referenced with today's evidence.

2) The paradigm shift I speak of is (according to HFY's history) the union of Ming military minds and Shaolin minds which created the new way of thinking. Many articles have been written by the Hung Fa Yi family about its involvement and resulting achievements so I will not go into it here.

3) There is really no need to get defensive with me. I would like to say that my previous post here made no reference to you, or personal attacks, did it? I do not think so! I was merely stating how a possibly more efficient path could be taken or considered. That's all Hendrik. I hope we are clear on that.

4) With respect to the thread, as it is about a Hung Mun and Tai Tzu Kuen connection I will not make this thread into a Hung Fa Yi internet battle as it has been so in the past. If I did I would be hijacking the thread, and I am certainly not one to participate in such behavior.

5) Hendrik, this is your thread and it is clearly referenced that your interests lie in a Hung Mun and Tai Tzu Kuen discussion. That, as opposed to a Hung Mun and HFY connection. However, feel free to start a Hung Fa Yi thread if you are interested in what it may offer to you. I will make note of this, as it has already been published in the 1999 issue of Qigong Wushu Kung Fu mag.

6) My interest in this thread began with the reference of Hung Mun. The Hung Fa Yi family had an article published about the "Shaolin to Wing Chun" subject which references the Buddhist Hung Mun secret society. I do not know if this is the same Hung Mun you are referencing, but should you be interested:

Here is the link to the full article from my Sifu's website.
http://www.mengsofaz.com/articles/hungfayi.htm

-Savi.

Savi

04-03-2003, 09:20 AM

You are most deserved in your opinions about 'history is irrelevant' if you can't use it today. But are you in a position to dictate what people discuss? If someone wants to discuss history which you have no interest in, why are you trying to delegate who should discuss what? Step off your soap box. Everyone here is free to discuss what they like.

-Savi.

Jim Roselando

04-03-2003, 11:12 AM

Hello all,

I find this an interesting discussion. Please understand that I am not looking at this based on HFY or any other particular lineage debate. To be honest my own family does not have much historical research (other than a wealth of Leung Jan info.) so this is my own side hobby with WC. For me its more about what seems to be more likely or less likely as RR likes to put it. As a matter of fact I never read the From Shaolin to WC article but will check it out!

We have all heard the stories of WC being a blend of Crane/Snake. We all heard the stories of WC being the secret Shaolin only taught to the high priests. We all heard about Miao Sun blending Crane with his own knowledge. We all heard many many stories about WC. I was involved in an art that made me start looking into this stuff a bit but still only know a pinch but use a certain model when looking into this stuff.

Nobody has yet to reply to my comments (model for cross-checking) on the other topic thread (Pelvis) with all the pictures we posted about structure, numerology, form pattern, hard breathing, isometric tension Doy Jong training etc.. This is how I like to connect arts and arts that share the same theory. We do get some of the same redundant comments about Hendrik's art saying; BUT WHERE IS YOUR CHUM KIU/BIU JEE etc??? If people could take in what has been said there would be no need to repeat this question. I am not a Yik Kam practitioner but do believe in Hendrik's research. That does not make it right or wrong but I need to hear others reasoning for their beliefs other than Technical/Theory. The reason I say this is because there is much similarity with technical skill found in the southern arts/internal arts. There is also a lot of similar theory found in these arts but some stuff is unique to its own.

Lets use Loi Lau Hoi Sun etc. for this one! Which other south fist lists this Kuen Faat?

Most primarily make use of Float, Spit, Swallow, Sink.

Also, if WC was a highly develop work that was for the high monks etc. then how did they develop this new structure (new way of thinking) from the common so-called Shaolin structure that I showed in all those foto's? Did they just decide to shrink everything and pull the lead leg back to develop YJKYM or do you feel someone may have had knowledge of another art which made use of a similar structure and blended it with the Crane? Did they take the typical Hut Yee Sao open door jong positioning found in the so-called Shaolin arts and re-align to the Mun Wu centerline closed theory based on what knowldge? Did they take the not shifting 3 battles forward approach and add in the shifting based on what new knoweldge? No south fist art shifts as WC does.

Lots to think about!

Please take the info I listed on the "Pelvis" topic and reply to it as I want to have an educated discussion about this so we can all learn from this.

Rolling Hand,

You have been contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion. It seems to be the case with all your posts. Can you please post your research for your beliefs otherwise please leave the topic for people willing to discuss their information in an adult way. The more we all share the more we can all grow and learn from each other but childish posts with nothing to add just wastes time. Learn from Savi as he discusses his thoughts!

Regards,

t_niehoff

04-03-2003, 12:47 PM

Savi writes:

You are most deserved in your opinions about 'history is irrelevant' if you can't use it today. S

What? TN

But are you in a position to dictate what people discuss? If someone wants to discuss history which you have no interest in, why are you trying to delegate who should discuss what? Step off your soap box. Everyone here is free to discuss what they like. S

If you want to talk about how HFY goes all the way back to Shaolin while at the same time being unable to *prove* it goes back one generation beyond Garrett Gee, certainly you are most welcome to . . . . I suppose some people like fairy tales. TN

Terence

Savi

04-03-2003, 12:52 PM

Fair enough Terence, my family's ancestors are private family information and might be further discussed in the future when we are ready to discuss. If you can't respect our privacy, so be it. I won't address this anymore. If you wish to contribute to Hendrik's thread, feel free. Leave your luggage at the door when you come in.

-Savi.

Rolling_Hand

04-03-2003, 12:54 PM

Savi wrote:

Researching martial DNA requires a scholastic analysis into the particular subject under study. What do I mean? Well, keep in mind that Wing Chun is based on philosophies, principles, concepts and strategy. That is the DNA of WC, not its techniques! And if that is the case should a researcher then be researching those things, as opposed to some techniques or outward expression of such? There are many animal styles, in principle, concept, and strategy which are very similar to Wing Chun. In operation and form, it is quite different.

However, this is a reflection of the focus on technical information rather than mechanical information. Looking at the techniques (mechanical information) of the subject under study is not the way to go.

-------------------------------------------------------

Savi,

Thumbs up!

Agreed.

Roger Rollinghand

Jim wrote:

Rolling Hand,

You have been contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion.
------------------------------------------------------

Jim,

Ordinarily, we think of *nothing* in the negative sense, as someone who holds himself apart from others. Lao Tzu's experience of Tao is naked and direct. Here we are speaking of opening yourself to other human beings in order to promote human welfare. In this case, it has nothing to do with the WCK, it's all about Hendrik's mumbo jack-the Emie 12 Zheung.

Absolutely nothing...
I don't have a fortune to buy you pretty things.
But I can show you the massage of the Tao.

Those who know do not speak;
Those who speak do not know.
Block the passages,
Shut the doors,
Let all sharpness be blunted,
All glare tempered.
This is called the mysterious levelling.
He who has achieved it cannot either be drawn into friendship or repelled,
Cannot be benefited, cannot be harmed,
Cannot either be raised or humbled,
And for that very reason is highest of all creatures under heaven.--Lao Tzu

Roger Rollinghand

Jim Roselando

04-03-2003, 01:37 PM

Roger,

What makes Hendrik's info. any more valuable or less valuable than anyone else's?

Is it such a bad thing that someone has a different view from the common?

It has everything in my view to do with WCK and nothing to do with (as you call it) "Mumbo Jack" Hendrik's Emei. Tell me something! Does Hendrik have a school? Does Hendrik sell video's? Does Hendrik have anything to do with WCK sales that makes him money? The only good he gets out of stating his beliefs is the sharing of info for the possible good of the future of WCK. Believe it or not! We are in a time that many myths can be put to rest so all we need is an open mind and some good sharing.

I am curious about something? Since you feel its not of value then why dont you state why the info is incorrect or how your opinions/theories are more logical? This is a "discussion board" so the Tao of "those who know do not speak" is not good for a "discussion board". Would the Tao not apply to the negative comments as well or is the Tao selcective to how and when you feel like jumping in for some negativity? Seriously man. Its time for you to state some facts or your troll status will only be locked in by those who read the ammount of real contribution you give to this "discussion board". This is getting kind of childish.

I am still waiting for ANYONE to discuss my comments on the Pelvis topic and what is right or wrong about them! Thats my DNA/reasoning for my beliefs. Now who is going to discuss it? Everyone seems to avoid the logical simple discussion of facts. I am also waiting to hear others reasoning so we can have more to talk about.

Regards,

desertwingchun2

04-03-2003, 06:15 PM

That wouldn't be in reference to a 'paradigm shift,' would it David? - Savi

Sihing - What came first the chicken or the egg?? ;) :D

However, this is a reflection of the focus on technical information rather than mechanical information. Looking at the techniques (mechanical information) of the subject under study is not the way to go.- Savi

Excellent !!!

With that said, if one is truly passionate about finding the roots of Wing Chun, it is better suited that one must first be (or become) a scholar of their own Wing Chun, and follow the scholarly path of research on technical information to achieve maximum results for their search. - Savi

Good point!! Hendrick take note. Your Wing Chun may only have SLT and come from Emei and such. No need to make that square peg try to fit round holes.

But remember you can't change the history facts and evidents.- Hendrick

Take your own advice!!

Jim has answer your question in different post. It seems that you guys must not be attentive of have difficulties to understand english problem like me. - Hendrick

No problems here. The answer "it's in there" leads to only one logical conclusion. Unfortunately, that conclusion only supports your square peg and is the dukah you experience.

Thank you everyone. Don't get too serious. Get some humor. - Hendrick

You have been the source of much humor so thank you.

And then Savi shows his Hung MUn Code to prove it. That is a very reasonable way. - Hendrick

More of that humor!!! Keep it coming ...
:) :D :)

DNA, "paradigm shift", Hung Mun, Shaolin, Ch'an, lineage, grandmasters, masters, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyone can claim anything. In the end, there is only one question that interests me: can the person making a claim actually make what they do work against a large, skilled, genuinely resisting opponent? If they can, then IMO they have something worth listening to; if not, they are wasting my time. - TN

Hi Terrance - Same arguement new thread. Geez David McKinnon was right :)

Honestly Terrance if it's a waste of your time simply don't read it. Beside what are you looking to find from those who back there claims? Even water from a raging river can only quench your thirst one drink at a time.

If you want to talk about how HFY goes all the way back to Shaolin while at the same time being unable to *prove* it goes back one generation beyond Garrett Gee, certainly you are most welcome to . . . . I suppose some people like fairy tales. TN

What??

Also, if WC was a highly develop work that was for the high monks etc. then how did they develop this new structure (new way of thinking) from the common so-called Shaolin structure that I showed in all those foto's? Jim R

Jim - which came first the chicken or the egg?

Did they take the not shifting 3 battles forward approach and add in the shifting based on what new knoweldge? No south fist art shifts as WC does. Jim R

If I'm reading this correctly I must point out - Not all wing chun footwork is based on shifting.

Please take the info I listed on the "Pelvis" topic and reply to it as I want to have an educated discussion about this so we can all learn from this. Jim R

Ok ... I'll play when I get some more time.

-David

Jim Roselando

04-04-2003, 07:07 AM

David,

Also, if WC was a highly develop work that was for the high monks etc. then how did they develop this new structure (new way of thinking) from the common so-called Shaolin structure that I showed in all those foto's? Jim R

Jim - which came first the chicken or the egg?

Hmmm! According to every WC story that ever has been written the older so-called Shaolin stuff came before the new an improved WCK. So, once again, how do you feel they came up with the new structure? What were the reasons behind it? Was it just out of the bue or perhaps somebody had knowledge of something else?

An eductaed adult answer and discussion would be appreciated.

Regards,

Mckind13

04-04-2003, 08:13 AM

Constructive conversation Jim :)

I have never studied any Shaolin arts. I have watched many of them on video, seen many in pictures, etc. I see few similarities though; especially in the application of techniques. To qualify this, I would say that many of the arts have similar "techniques," but lack the use of linking techniques, body and principles in a way that makes it similar to WCK.

On the other hand, this elusive paradigm shift people keep talking about seems to have occurred all over China. It seems that Shing Yi, Ba Gua, Tai Chi, Wing Chun and some other arts that spring from this time period have similar use of a more erect more mobile body. I have compared with a Shing Yi fellow and that art contained similar ideas.

Anyway,

I like the idea that WCK is the fist of the Opera. If WCK sprung from the Red Boats then what were the tools they had to draw from and what kind of adversary would they have to deal with.

What arts existed in that particular period of time that could have contributed to WCK?

What kind of arts did the government troops deploy, how about the thugs and criminals who might confront the opera troops in their various ports of call, what else might shape the art?

Anyway got to run

David

Savi

04-04-2003, 08:20 AM

I'm going to try and address this on the Shaolin/Wing Chun thread in a few...

-Savi.

Phenix

04-04-2003, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
That wouldn't be in reference to a 'paradigm shift,' would it David? - Savi

Sihing - What came first the chicken or the egg?? ;) :D

-David

David,

Check the post in

"Shaolin and Wing Chun informative... "

We know the founder of Hung Mun and his potrait... the location of Hung Fa Ting (Turn out to be in my home town county in China :D )
also, with the information of when Hung Mun Starts and the list of where and when on Hung Mun activity branch.....

Now, it is your time to show what is the so called new paradigm shift invented in Hung Fa Ting which is in the back yard of my home town?

Fujian White Crane invention time surpassed the Founded of Hung FA Ting. It is an evident fact.

So where did Tan Sau Ng get his mighty Tan Sau? Nothern Shao Lin? How is Tan Sau Ng from the Northern Shao Lin with Shao Lin Long Fist DNA expert in the Fujian White Crane Water shape hand --- Tan Sau? How does Tan Sau is the ultimate hand where it is only one of five hand shape of White CRane of Fujian?

Certainly you can still arque to dimissed all these evidents by the scholars and historian of Taiwan and China that your version is the original and true one. But, you need to show evidents now.
otherwise, it is just speculation without proof.

Certainly, i expect to see a new version of His-story to "explain" the legend. But, as IMHO concern. the more one makes history the more one get into traping oneself.

As one junior who think he knows it all on Chan. and at one point question me on everything... once asked me to lay my cards. See, These here are only very little of Cards... how many card will he be able to match? How many can he match even just a few which I had lay open for the past few weeks?

I don't blame on the older generation who is not as literate due to war time of china.

But for young generation what I can say is " naive".
IMHO, people needs to learn and read more Chinese clasical. Playing around with pronounciation and slang term such as Kong Wu... is not going to get one very far in studying Chinese.
Not to mention Chinese Martial art history and DNA. And the most importanting, don't ever ask other to Change thier ancestors wihtout even knowing and get the evident for sure about one's own acestors.

Certainly, Rolling Hand can keep jump out and arque and activing as a Negative Daoist But where is the "beef"? None.

reneritchie

04-04-2003, 09:34 AM

"The Tiandihui began when Zheng Kai (known primarily as Ti Xi but with numerous aliases including Monk Wan, Monk Hong Er, etc.), Li Amin (a boxing master), Zhu Dingyuan, and Tao Yuan left their homes in Zhangpu, Fujian to seek better lives in Sichuan. There, they joined a group of “monks” led by Ma Jiulong who practiced magic and exorcism. The group did not fair well, however, and Ti Xi soon went to Guangdong and organized a group of followers in Huizhou. In 1761, Ti Xi returned home to Fujian and took up residence in the Guanyinting (Goddess of Mercy Pavillion) and transformed his group of followers into the society known as Tiandihui.

By 1766, the Tiandihui had spread through Zhangpu and Pinghe counties, and by 1767, one of the early members, Lu Mao, created a brotherhood for what may have been the first Tiandihui uprising. Their plan was to engage in theft (robbing storehouses, treasuries, and homes of the well do to) in order to raise money for their rebellious activities. In 1768, the time finally came for their uprising and they attacked the western gate of the county seat, but were easily defeated by the local guard.

Li Amin followed this uprising by forming a society to rob wealthy households and rise up in 1769. Before they could complete their uprising, however, they were discovered and executed. Ti Xi was said to have lain low following this, until he passed away in 1779, handing down the register of his society to his son, Zheng Ji, who later became a monk.

As the Tiandihui spread through different counties and provinces, it branched off into many groups and became known by many names. Along with its increasingly complex rituals, it also developed a rich, legendary, back-story, filled with allegory, symbolism and numerology that served to inspire recruits and lend direction to the movement. The story held that the Tiandihui/Hongmen’s roots traced back to the Shaolin Temple, betrayed by jealous Qing officials after they helped the dynasty suppress the Xilufan (Western Barbarian) revolt. The temple burned down, the monks scattered, five survivors met with Ming loyalists at the Honghua Ting (Hung Fa Ting, Vast or Red Flower Pavilion), and received a sign from Heaven to “fan Qing fu Ming” (“fan Ching Fook Ming”, “overthrow the Qing and restore the Ming”).

By referencing an apocryphal Fujian Shaolin Temple and its warrior monks (molded from Tang dynasty accounts of Songshan, Henan Shaolin), feigning connections to Buddhist societies (from tales of the Bailian (White Lotus), and Yuan Dynasty Qing Lian (Green Lotus) and Wuwei (Motionless) Societies), and weaving in fictitious Song or Ming scion, they created a compelling counter-culture where the disenfranchised could seek some measure of pride, self-empowerment, and political significance. They also swelled their ranks and motivated their followers."

reneritchie

04-04-2003, 09:38 AM

David - The egg came first, of course, a slight mutation laid by a creature 99.9999999% of the way to chickenhood ;)

Interesting parallel, though. When Darwin discussed the diversity of species, creationists weren't happy. When people suggested you could circumnavigate the globe, the flat-earthists had a cow (not literally ;). Now peopel challenge the Shaolin-orgin-theories that have been promoted for the last 50-100 years, and a similar reaction ensues.

God save us from the villagers with pitchforks and torches!

Phenix

04-04-2003, 10:04 AM

RR,

In the new book I get. Ti xi was the second generation.

Turn out that Wan last name is a gang of Sao An Fujian (hope that I don't related to. Ha ha ha). This gang take last name Wan after they join the gang. So after Ming fall, they join Cheng Sin-gong...

and Dao Choong is the 5th of this gang and become a monk later.

Then later Tixi comes by......

whatever it is no sign of martial art evolution in Hung Fa Ting....

Hendrik

reneritchie

04-04-2003, 10:06 AM

"In 1854, Liu Duchuan (Lao Doo-Chuen), brother of Guangdong Three Harmonies Society member and Shanghai Xiaodaohui (Siu Do Wui, Small Knife Society) leader, Liu Lichuan (Lao Lee-Chuen), was sent back to Guangdong (which had been charged with paying 80.6% of the Opium War reparations) to help organize an uprising in support of the Taiping. In June, He Liu (Ho Lok), a smuggler and society member whose brother had been murdered in a prefectural purge, began to raise a band of men in search of vengeance. Helped by Liu Yingcai (Lao Ying-Choi), he prepared to attack the Dongguan county seat.

They moved on Stone Dragon town. Thirty thousand members and six hundred boats worked towards the goal of “taking down the Dragon, lifting the tiger, stopping the goat, bowing the Buddha, and reaching the Western paradise.” In this code, dragon signified the Stone Dragon, tiger the Tiger Gate, goat the Goat City (Guangzhou), Buddha the Buddha Mountain (Foshan), and Western Paradise the province of Guangxi.

He Liu’s uprising began a chain reaction through the region, and on June 11, 1854, Chen Kai (Chan Hoi) and Liu Duchuan lead 7000 Three Harmonies Society members to revolt in Foshan. On June 12th, members of the Precious Jade Flower Union, under the direction of Li Wenmao, took to the streets in full costume, waving red banners. A few hundred at first, within a few days, tens of thousands of common people joined as well, showing their allegiance with red turbans. And the Hongjin (Hung Gam, Red Turban) Rebellion was born.

The rebels burned the Qing offices, and on July 4, took control of the town and ushered in the Daning (Dai Ning, Great Peace). Their troops came to be known as the Hong Bing (Hung Bing, Vast Army), with Chen Kai as the Chen Nan Wang (Chan Nam Wong, Subdue the South King) and Li Wenmao as his second.

Hill bandits soon began to move on the Guangdong capitol, Guangzhou. On July 14, Kan Xian, who had previous started a revolt in Huayan, assaulted the north gate. He Liu marched to join them, and from Panyu, Red Turbans camped on the Manchu parade grounds outside the east gate. Bannermen and local militia defended the city. On August 19 and 24, Chen Kai and Li Wenmao tried to crush the militia forces between Foshan and Guangzhou but failed. Soon thereafter, rebel infighting began to take its toll. By September 5, He Liu pulled out, by September 7, the siege began to falter, and by November 5, it broke."

reneritchie

04-04-2003, 10:08 AM

Hey Hendrik,

Which book? What year do they place the formation.

Agreed on Hung Fa Ting. BTW- I've seen the characters rendered "Flood Flower" more often than "Red Flower", what have you seen?

Phenix

04-04-2003, 10:18 AM

RR,

A book edited by real Hung Mun and their scholars/china of Taiwan.... they went back to china to trace.... book
comes out recently....

desertwingchun2

04-05-2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
That wouldn't be in reference to a 'paradigm shift,' would it David? - Savi

Sihing - What came first the chicken or the egg??

-David

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phenix/Hendrick - Actually this was an AB conversation. Without knowing the context how do you dare make comments?? I guess you assumed you knew. Well .....

Now, it is your time to show what is the so called new paradigm shift invented in Hung Fa Ting which is in the back yard of my home town? - Hendrick/Phenix

When did you get appointed game master? Who are you to dictate my schedule? Who said that I have something to show? Are you making assumptions again?

So where did Tan Sau Ng get his mighty Tan Sau? Nothern Shao Lin? How is Tan Sau Ng from the Northern Shao Lin with Shao Lin Long Fist DNA expert in the Fujian White Crane Water shape hand --- Tan Sau? How does Tan Sau is the ultimate hand where it is only one of five hand shape of White CRane of Fujian?

I didn't know Tan Sao Ng, did you? But I do know he had an expert Tan Sao not expert Water Hand. Hence his name Tan Sao Ng vs. Water Hand Ng. Is Tan Sao a hand in Fujian White Crane or is Water Hand?

As for your comment of a junior thinking he knows all of Chan - I don't think that was directed at me and if it was when did I lay claim to knowing all or any of Chan? Or was that another assumption?

But for young generation what I can say is " naive". Hendrick/Phenix

Naive? If I am naive it is because I have not asked enough questions. As you know I question alot. Naive may also be the one waiting to win the lotto but never buying a ticket.

IMHO, people needs to learn and read more Chinese clasical. Playing around with pronounciation and slang term such as Kong Wu... is not going to get one very far in studying Chinese.

You're funny and make me smile see ---->:D :D

Certainly, Rolling Hand can keep jump out and arque and activing as a Negative Daoist But where is the "beef"? None.

I think you meant acting but anyways .... Why are you curious about his beef?

Follow your own advice and keep your sense of humor.

-David

Rolling_Hand

04-05-2003, 06:22 PM

<<Hendrik wrote:

I don't blame on the older generation who is not as literate due to war time of china.>>HS

**What are you saying?

<<But for young generation what I can say is " naive".
IMHO, people needs to learn and read more Chinese clasical. Playing around with pronounciation and slang term such as Kong Wu... is not going to get one very far in studying Chinese.>>HS

**Huh....Hendrik, Are you the master of Kong Wu?

<<Not to mention Chinese Martial art history and DNA. And the most importanting, don't ever ask other to Change thier ancestors wihtout even knowing and get the evident for sure about one's own acestors.>>HS

**This one is from David:"To say all WC is from Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang just doesn't add up. All I've read from Hendrick are ubiquitous statements that basically equate to "this sounds like it could be this so it must be".

<<Certainly, Rolling Hand can keep jump out and arque and activing as a Negative Daoist But where is the "beef"? None.>>HS

**Huh...I can't jump, I just walk. Is that OK with Hendrik? Here is my two cents of beef...You are willing to be awake in whatever situation may present itself to you, and you feel that you can take command of your own intelligence:

See what is.
See what is not.
Follow the true way.
Rise.

Hum.....

Jim Roselando

04-06-2003, 10:18 AM

Hello,

It seems this conversation is going no where.

Hendrik and others show factual historic research and other information. Others believe in a story that has very little reality to it and can be proven in-accurate with dates/structural info..

Water Hand is just like a Tan Sao. Just like Metal Hand is just like the double ding sao in SLT and Fire Palms are like the double (bi-lateral) Jing Jeung in Chum Kiu etc.. Fukien Crane is by far the most similar art to WC with a different structure that is closer to the so-called Shaolin south fist arts. Everyone has always made claims that the art was derived from White Crane etc.. Check out the art and find the BEEF. Talk about the Shaolin stories without any beef and only stories that have hardly any beef.

Read the Hung Mun info. for your self before listening to others. If memory serves me correct (when my old Mantis sifu and I covered Hung Mun stuff) the history makes no mention of any particular style of Kung Fu but does name a location called the "White Crane Grotto"? Check out the Fukien Crane for your self since they introduced the inch power and are sooo similar. Check out the concepts and principles of any Zhan Zhuang (Jam Jong) art and see for your self. Do it with an open mind and leave the desire to be the original or Shaolin at the door and you may start noticing. Like how the so-called south Shaolin arts do not make use of the typical WC chi sao/circling hand platforms we do but the more upright Zhuang art and Taiji systems do! Only not as effective since its lacks the practical South Fist element in it IMO. Also, check the dates and time periods. If not, its no big deal but its a fun process. This conversation was not about any particular art or lineage. As I said, My Own Family makes use of the Shaolin Ng Mui fable, so it just a chat on the net with info., logic, research and comparison. People can believe what they want and in the end as long as you are happy that is all that matters.

Roger,

You have mastered the art of TROLLING! 700+ posts and not one piece of input other than one cut and paste. Joy was 100% right. Dont feed the TROLLS.

I am taking a break from chatting (for a couple of days because of work) but enjoyed the discussions with the adults.

Regards,