"true" bagua stepping methods

[Waidan]

Recently I read an opinion here (http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3678) stating that mudstepping (and more generally, any "straight-line" stepping method) is not a technique inherant to bagua, but rather the result of xingyi influence on bagua teachings.

While I agree that much of what I (relative newb that I am) consider "true" bagua is derived from kobu and baibu stepping, it's hard for me to envision a style consisting soley of those methods. How would circle-walking be performed? How would the fighter advance quickly?

Any opinions on the origins of mudstepping, and whether they were derived from xingyi at some point?

[Waidan]

41 views and still no replies? Narr.

Bad topic? Lemme know, I can take it ;)

[jon]

lol that was my thread over on dragonslist. I post over there under the name LoneTiger.

Part of the issue with that post is that I personaly posted it becouse i did not have a strong understanding of the mudslipping step which some linages use. In my practice the stepping is basicaly purely toe in toe out.

Me and RobT both have very similar attitudes to Bagua training and a big part of this probarly has to do with our linages being somewhat related through Zhang Zhao Dong.

Still i did *not* wish to imply that mudslipping step had no use or application i was mearly prompting for people who use it to 'step up' and tell me about it.

I personaly have a suspition that the mudslipping step is an influence from Xing Yi however that does not mean i think its useless or not 'real' kung fu.

I do also as stated in that thread have a dislike for the 'slipping' step which many Wushu performers seem to use. That is just something i dont understand the use of.

LOL You do realise you could have just replied to the thread over on the Dragonslist and had this discussion there dont you?

[count]

Trying to interpret here. Mudslipping is a term I've never heard in bagua. If you mean how some people slide their front foot forward a little further when they step, some styles break the stepping into four parts and each step can be four hits.

1. Pushing off the back foot
2. Pulling the back leg in
3. Sliding the back foot forward
4. Sliding a little more as the now back leg kneels

And power can come out on all four parts.
But I wouldn't get too carried away analyzing the step. It's more important to get the basic rules but keep it natural. People often try and copy what they see their teacher do and it might not be right for them. There are sliding steps, heel/toe steps, C steps, triangle steps, ko bu/bi bu, steps, chicken steps, circle walking, square walking, triangle walking, all kind of steps in bagua and not infleunced by any other style. If you think mudstep is so important, try going backward with it. :p

[Waidan]

Thanks for the replies :)

Jon-

Actually I did post on the Dragonlist thread (same screen name...look down a few posts). I think my post (and questions) kinda got lost in the shuffle. I'm not implying that mudstepping doesn't have a place in practice, or that anyone else thinks that. What I'm really interested in, is two things:

1. Is mudstepping "originally" part of bagua (as taught by DHC), or is it a latter adaptation of xingyi methods?

2. How is circle walking performed in branches that only use the kobu and baibu stepping? RobT seemed to be stated that they do circle-walking practice, but using those steps (as I practice them) makes for an awfully tight circle!

I agree with you on the ssssliiiding step I've seen. Seems like some folks over-accentuate it for performance value.

Count-

Thanks for the input. I sort of learned the mudstep, went crazy trying to do it right, gave up, and then figured it out. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there with better form than me, but I'm comfortable with where I'm at. All the same, I always enjoy hearing perspectives from different schools.

I've decided (more or less independantly) that the bagua I'm learning has a LOT of xingyi influence. My teacher acknowledges some of it, but even in our "pure" forms, I see traces of xingyi stepping, and obvious parallels in how many of the strikes are done. I'm fine with all of this, mind you, but I've started to wonder where the bagua leaves off and the other influences start, if such a distinction is possible.

Thanks again to you both!

[count]

LOL, the zen approach seems to help me too. When I stop trying I make great improvements. I forgot, was your teacher showing you Gao style? Personally, I think bagua is like chicken soup for your martial art. It's good for what ever ails you. Fix it right up.

[Waidan]

I'm studying Cheng, Nine Palace. It's good times. I don't know if you're familiar with John Bracy, but my intstructor studied under him. That may give you some idea what I'm practicing.

"Chicken Soup" is a novel way of putting it, lol. I'll have to make that my sales pitch to the uninitiated ;)

[omarthefish]

lol @ mudsliding step...although, watching the way as lot of wushu performers glide around like they were on ice-skates makes it seem like a reasonable translation of 'tong ni bu'. Just how did you "go crazy" trying to get it right? How much time did you/do you spend at a session trying to get it right? 10 minutes? 15? 45? 90? I didn't get to learn anything else untill I had made it a habit to practice 45 minutes to an hour of just mudstepping at the beggining of every practive for nearly 3 months. I still am working out the details.

From a certain perspective, there's not much to work out. The main thing is just that the entire foot remains flat on the ground and that the contact is either extremely light for your 'empty' foot or just plain rooted for your 'full' foot.

One of the more profound aspect of this kind of steping, to me, is that you are never falling during your stepping. When you walk naturally you are actually always falling forward and then putting a foor out to catch yourself. If you step of the curb without noticing, you will lose your balance and land hard on the front foot. With muddy stepping, the 'falling is eliminated. Your weight doesn't transfer untill the front foot has sensed there is somewhere to step. It's like ting jin for your feet!

All the other types of stepping are out there but 'muddy stepping' is the core bagua stepping style and IMHO one of the main charactaristics of Baguazhang, which makes it hard for me to thin of it as a Hsing-yi import. Straight line drills on the other hand....are another story.

[Waidan]

Originally posted by omarthefish
lol @ mudsliding step...although, watching the way as lot of wushu performers glide around like they were on ice-skates makes it seem like a reasonable translation of 'tong ni bu'. Just how did you "go crazy" trying to get it right? How much time did you/do you spend at a session trying to get it right? 10 minutes? 15? 45? 90? I didn't get to learn anything else untill I had made it a habit to practice 45 minutes to an hour of just mudstepping at the beggining of every practive for nearly 3 months. I still am working out the details.

"Go crazy" = slang. At no point was my sanity actually in jeopardy. I focused on the mechanics of the step a lot, particularly in my first year. It's kinda hard to estimate just how long I spent drilling the stepping on a daily basis, but it doesn't sound like you're expecting an answer either. Everyone I've met (myself included, of course) is still "working out the details", but that's kung fu for ya.



From a certain perspective, there's not much to work out. The main thing is just that the entire foot remains flat on the ground and that the contact is either extremely light for your 'empty' foot or just plain rooted for your 'full' foot.

One of the more profound aspect of this kind of steping, to me, is that you are never falling during your stepping. When you walk naturally you are actually always falling forward and then putting a foor out to catch yourself. If you step of the curb without noticing, you will lose your balance and land hard on the front foot. With muddy stepping, the 'falling is eliminated. Your weight doesn't transfer untill the front foot has sensed there is somewhere to step. It's like ting jin for your feet!


Your experience sounds much like my own.



All the other types of stepping are out there but 'muddy stepping' is the core bagua stepping style and IMHO one of the main charactaristics of Baguazhang, which makes it hard for me to thin of it as a Hsing-yi import. Straight line drills on the other hand....are another story. [/B]

Thank you, just the sort of opinion I'm interested in.

[omarthefish]

When the hell did mudstepping and kou bu-bai bu become an either or proposotion !?!? Some serious confusion going on over there. Kou bu, bai bu, tong ni bu all together now. . . The angle/curvature of your travel path is irrelevant to wether you are heel toing it as opposed to mud-stepping. I just may have found a new forum to go and waste my time on. :rolleyes:

[Waidan]

Originally posted by omarthefish
When the hell did mudstepping and kou bu-bai bu become an either or proposotion !?!? Some serious confusion going on over there. Kou bu, bai bu, tong ni bu all together now. . . The angle/curvature of your travel path is irrelevant to wether you are heel toing it as opposed to mud-stepping. I just may have found a new forum to go and waste my time on. :rolleyes:

See, now that's what I'm talking about, and that's more-or-less what I asked in the other thread, but to no avail. I'm not (by any stretch) going to tell RobT or Jon or anyone else that their method is incorrect or their logic is flawed...but I'm having having a hard time understanding the "either or" comparison of the stepping methods, and how exactly one can circle walk using only kobu and baibu stepping.

Any future light-shedding is greatly appreciated.

[omarthefish]

Well, I didn't read the whole thread, just skimmed the first few postsbut I can answer one question:


how exactly one can circle walk using only kobu and baibu stepping.


Your outside step is always kou bu and the inside, bai bu. It's just not so exaggerated, but all 'kou' means is 'hooking'. 'Bai' is a little harder to translate but basically it means twisted or curved. A boxers hook in chinese is 'bai chuan'. Picking your nose is 'kou bizi'. ('bizi' is nose ):p

I'll go tell those guys their logic is flawed! What are they going to do? Flame me? Woooo!!!! :eek:

[Waidan]

I see what you're saying regarding the circle walking. Thanks for the illustration. That varies from our practice...the "inside" leg steps straight in our walking, while the outside leg hooks to keep in line with the circle. A subtle kobu of sorts, as you stated.

Thanks mistar fish :cool:

[omarthefish]

Yeah, I actually have learned it with a straight inner step too but I stick to my point. See ya later. I'm outta here for tonight. :D

[jon]

Waidan
"Actually I did post on the Dragonlist thread (same screen name...look down a few posts)."
* lol im sorry, I really should have opened my eyes :D



PS The mudslipping step that me and Rob where picking on and the one which the thread is asking about is the method where the inside foot (inside of the circle) walks a strait line and then the outside leg swings around.

[count]

Some systems of bagua do not use Bi Bu that much. It's not incorrect, just a different understanding of what steps are for and how to use them. Sounds like Gou style to me, which also does have more Hsing-I in it than others.

[Waidan]

Jon - Thanks for the info. The difference between the steps (as they relate to circle walking) is a small but important one. I don't disagree with your method and I'm sure there are pros and cons to both steps.

I tend to agree that the baibu step is a more applicable kicking technique (though I hardly think the straight mudstep is useless in that regard), and the idea that it generates more coiling (or releasing) movement in the body is hard to argue. One reason for our straight step is increased protection of the groin and inside of the kua, according to my teacher. As I stated before, our style uses a lot of xingyi striking in our forms (I can't say whether these strikes were actually taken from xingyi, or if they merely share a similar mechanic), and the straight step serves to power a lot of those movements.

Count - I haven't seen Gou performed, but I've been told of their straight-line forms. We do all our forms on a circle (well, a bunch of circles...they don't call it 9 palace for nothing ;)) but certainly there could be a lot of similarity in philosophy and technique between the schools. If I get off my duff and pay Shen Wu a visit, I'm sure they could confirm this.

[Walter Joyce]

If my memory serves be correctly, it is NOT an either or proposition (mud stepping or ko bu bai bu).

Also, Luo lashi, if my memory is still working, mentioned four basic stepping methods in bagua: mud step, heel toe, chicken step, and crane step, any of which can be chosen as a basic stepping method in your circle walking practice. Also, I believe that Luo lashi emphasized chicken step last time I saw him (summer of 2002).

[Waidan]

Hey Walter :)

In our system we use the mudstep, rolling (heel-toe), and chicken step. Beginners only learn and practice mudstepping, as its mechanics are central to our practice. I wasn't shown the rolling and chicken steps 'till about two years in.

[omarthefish]

I showed the one straight line exercise I learned to my Sifu in China and he took one look and told me straight up it was Xing-Yi not Bagua. What do I know? Don't care really.

I've heared about the four sifferent stepping methods too but never seen them except in America and in English language books about Bagua. My Chinese instructors have made refence to chicken step or crane step but I got the impression they were different names for the same thing. Toe heel stepping has gotten me nothing but weird looks or laughter when asked about in China. My feeling is that the other steps (ie. not muddy) are for very specialized purposes. For instance chicken stepping developes strong kicks. My main reason is just that I can't find any references to anything other than snake stepping/muddy stepping in old Bagua 'songs' but I have bumped into many references to muddy stepping/sliding stepping/snake stepping.

[Walter Joyce]

FWIW, Luo lashi is from Taipei, not mainland china, but not america either. He is known for his in depth research into the methods and development of ba gua practice, not just the gao style methods.

[jon]

count
"Some systems of bagua do not use Bi Bu that much. It's not incorrect, just a different understanding of what steps are for and how to use them."
* This is a bit what i was trying to get accross, in *no* way do i want to imply that the strait mudstep is wrong or not Bagua. Its just not a step that I personaly use much or really understand. Although i have learnt the step its not one I focuss on in my training.
My purpose in posting the thread on Dragonslist was to both get an understanding of what linages prefer which step but also why which linages prefer which step.


The step which im generaly critical of is the one often favored by Wushu performers where the foot is placed on the ground and then slips (slides) forward (in performance the longer the better it seems). This step seems contry to Bagua writings on stepping and I cant understand the practical purpose behind it.

Ive always been taught that any type of good stepping should be solid and rooted and should transfer to poles without much trouble. The sliding foot is obviously not grounded and would be impossible to transfer to pole walking in its present state.


"Raise levelly, fall and hook continuousness everywhere."

"Bend the legs, treading mud step; the arches of the feet are empty."

"Root like the mountains and hills, step like water."

[Waidan]

"The step which im generaly critical of is the one often favored by Wushu performers where the foot is placed on the ground and then slips (slides) forward (in performance the longer the better it seems). This step seems contry to Bagua writings on stepping and I cant understand the practical purpose behind it."

Agreed. My understanding of "Mudstepping" is that the practitioner is walking cautiously (planting and gripping before transfering weight), as if they were trying to avoid slipping in mud.

[jon]

Waidan

I agree totaly with you there, the foot should not slide it should be placed and then weight transfered.
I think of the two mudslipping and mudstepping quite differently dispite the names being somewhat similar. One implies trying to ski though the mud by skidding and the other implys carefull placement and weight transfer.
Then again maybe im just picking on symantics :D

Either way i compleately understand where your comming from and should have pointed out this difference in my views earlier.
Ah well im an idiot, now back to walking around in circles staring intently at my hands;)

[count]

While it's not our style to slide the foot forward it is clearly another step in power issuing in others. Just my understanding based on what I have heard about Gao style 4 part stepping as I outlined earlier. You get four separate hits out of each part. Also seems to me that Cheng style steps out kind of far. But than, Cheng Ting Hua was much taller than say, Gong Bao Tien. The stride was perfect for him, but maybe not for you. Your teachers step might not be right for you either.

Keep level (about one head lower for starters)
walk carefully as if you were in slipery mud. (Ankle Deep);)
Lift from the hip (with force)
Foot stays level just above the ground
Grip the ground with your toes with each step

I understand what you are saying about wushu, but if you really want to see the difference watch the hands instead of feet. I would also say that I have seen some wushu players that would kick your ass and mine. :p

[Brad]

The step which im generaly critical of is the one often favored by Wushu performers where the foot is placed on the ground and then slips (slides) forward (in performance the longer the better it seems). This step seems contry to Bagua writings on stepping and I cant understand the practical purpose behind it.
I don't think there is a practical purpose behind it. I think they're just flat out doing it wrong, either from not paying close enough attention to their teacher, or they're teacher just doesn't know Bagua to well(or doesn't care enough to teach correctly :P). Really, I don't think I've ever seen modern wushu athletes doing Bagua like this in competition, but then again, I don't think I've seen to many modern wushu people doing Bagua at all (here in the US).

[omarthefish]

Walter,

We've spoken before, I'm Bailewen you know. I like Luo's Bagua a lot too. In fact, I'll go so far as to say his is the only Bagua I've seen on instructional video that I thought was worth a ****. I'll refrain from publicly listing the tapes I've seen though. Wouldn't want to upset anybody . . . :(

Anyways, I didn't say there weren't other steps, just that I think they are far less critical than muddy stepping and on the video I used to have, Luo Sifu was mostly muddy stepping.

[Walter Joyce]

hello Baliwen and Waidan Just throwing out what I know. :)