What is the Measure of Wing Chun?

[Grendel]

Numerous posts involving questions about Wing Chun teachers ask whether, "Does anyone know anything about these guys and should I study with his/her school?"

Does anyone have any suggestions about what general criteria to use in making such recommendations?

[Marky]

Yeah, say to them, "What am I, a newspaper! Look into it your d@mn self!"

That's the only 100% unbiased answer that anyone can give.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Can you really learn how to FIGHT ON THE STREET at this school and with this instructor or not?

EVERYTHING ELSE IS B.S.

[Block]

There is an interesting article on WebWingChun about Sifus.

It isn't a list of criteria for looking for a good sifu but it does give some guidance on what a gppd Sifu should be like.

http://www.webwingchun.com/html/home.php?pagelink=whatisasifu

[tmanifold]

Originally posted by Marky
Yeah, say to them, "What am I, a newspaper! Look into it your d@mn self!"

That's the only 100% unbiased answer that anyone can give.

But how is some one with no background in WC supposed to make a judgement of the skill of an instructor? Also aside from a google search how else does one find out about any fraud or misreprestantion.

Tony

[Marky]

Hi Tmanifold,

"But how is some one with no background in WC supposed to make a judgement of the skill of an instructor? Also aside from a google search how else does one find out about any fraud or misreprestantion."

Any advice we give will be based on the pre-supposition that we know what we're talking about, which is generally untrue.

Because of our own biases, we are no more qualified to pass judgement on the skill of an instructor than an untrained person. We can decide if what they're teaching looks good for OURSELVES (and we can change that opinion ad infinitum), but that's as far as I'd be willing to go. Definitions of "good" vary from person to person, season to season, and day to day.

Also, any claims we make about a martial arts school that we do not attend are just as likely to be fraudulent and misrepresentative as an intentional lie put forth from within said school.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Block
There is an interesting article on WebWingChun about Sifus.

It isn't a list of criteria for looking for a good sifu but it does give some guidance on what a gppd Sifu should be like.

http://www.webwingchun.com/html/home.php?pagelink=whatisasifu
Hi Block,

Good article. I'd like to meet the author if he ever comes to the US of A. The article is very relevant because it flips the main question and asks instead, what should be avoided in a sifu.

Regards,

[Block]

Hi Grendel,

His other articles are pretty good too but I might be biased since he is my Sifu :)

I know for a fact that he is intending to travel to states and Canada in the future so I'll keep you posted.

Cheers
Block

[Matrix]

Originally posted by tmanifold
But how is some one with no background in WC supposed to make a judgement of the skill of an instructor? Also aside from a google search how else does one find out about any fraud or misreprestantion. Tony. This a great question. It's really a tough call. I don't mean to trivialize the subject, but it's somewhat analogous to buying a car. How do you buy one brand or model over another if you don't know anything about cars? I think it boils down to doing some research. There are resources to consult, and perhaps a friend who has some knowledge. You may end up buying a lemon or two before you hit pay-dirt. No problem with that, just know when to cut your losses and move on.

If you have experience in other martial arts, I think that helps. With experience, you develop an eye for snake-oil salesmen.

After years of Karate, Kickboxing and TKD I had decided to look for something better then the TKD I was studying. Through pure fluke, or was it destiny ;) , I came across this school which taught Wing Chun. Quite frankly I had never heard of WC before and I thought of the old TV show with David Carradine when I heard the term "Kung Fu". However, After watching a class I was convinced that this was exactly what I was looking for.

How? First of all look at the students. Especially the seniors. The sign of a great teacher is not limited to their own martial arts skill, but IMO their ability to train excellent martial artists. The ability to transfer knowledge and skill is really what you want. How many "world champions" :rolleyes: have you seen that can articulate a concept to students. The fact that they are great martial artists themselves is certainly of value, but can they impart their wisdom. That is a much better question to ask, IME. If you see a real hodge-podge of skill-levels at one rank you should suspect that you have a belt factory. One thing that impressed me about WC and this school in particular was the skill of the women. In my previous experience, men were almost always able to physically overpower the women.....not so in this case. Very strong and capable female martial artists is a very positive sign. Just be prepared to check your ego at the door when some "girl" takes you to the cleaners. ;)

Of course, this is all a direct reflection of the Sifu. He or she needs to be articulate, ethusiastic, understanding yet firm. This is not playschool. Make sure the atmosphere of the school fits your personality. There is no "one size fits all" solution.

What does the school emphasize? Big plastic trophies, or some sort of Black Belt club? Maybe that's your thing, maybe not. For me the most telling thing my sifu said in the early days, and has repeated several times, is that he is not interested in mediocrity. If we are just there to muddle through, rather than strive for greatness, then we should go elsewhere. He doesn't have time to waste of being average. He demands a lot from us, but knows how to balance demand and encouragement. It's a fine art. It's also something that I greatly appreciate, but that's me, so remember - your mileage may vary.

Matrix

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Matrix
For me the most telling thing my sifu said in the early days, and has repeated several times, is that he is not interested in mediocrity. If we are just there to muddle through, rather than strive for greatness, then we should go elsewhere. Does he expect the same of himself? Is he teaching by example? Just curious.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Block
Hi Grendel,

His other articles are pretty good too but I might be biased since he is my Sifu :)

I know for a fact that he is intending to travel to states and Canada in the future so I'll keep you posted.

Cheers
Block
Good for you to have him as your instructor. Please keep us all posted if he's coming to the States.

Regards,

[tmanifold]

I can tell the general skill level of a martial artist because I have prior experience in other martial arts but I can not tell if he is teaching what I want him to teach. For example, I am looking to learn Chueng style Wing Chun. The only instructor in my city that teaches Chueng style (that I know of) if not affliated with Chuneg's organization. That does not mean he is not competent but it is harder to check. If he was affliated with the org I would have a fairly good chance that he is teaching what he says he is teaching.

When I do a search on some one, I look for things like professing to be a grand master or even a instructor in a system when in reality he was only a green belt. Or in that the instructor of the instuctor I am researching isn't the grandmaster he says he is but only reached first level instructor status or the equivalent of a shodan.

So besides only having a general knowledge of Wing Chun I am not "in the know". I don't follow the wing chun world so I don't hear thing that someone invovled in the WC world might.

Tony

[Stevo]

What is the Measure of Wing Chun?

About a million miles.

[wingchunner]

I like what Ken Chung has said (something like this):

(Pointing to Yip Man) When you think of Wing Chun you should think of Yip Man. He was not a big man, but could defeat men much larger than him.

(Somewhat jokingly he said something like:) I am old, balding, fat, gray hair, not very strong, losing my eye-sight, not very fast, not very tall... I am perfect for Wing Chun.:p [ Perhaps KJ can remember it better.]

[Personally, I think he's pretty fit. And, he can pack a wallup!]

Also, he said that if a woman (or a small, frail (looking) man, like Yip Man was in many of his pictures) can't do it, then it isn't good Wing Chun.

Wing Chun is position and sensitivity, not power and speed.

These are a few of my guides that I keep in the back of my mind when training to prevent me from relying on power or speed.

Have a great day.

Marty

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Does he expect the same of himself? Is he teaching by example? Just curious. Leads by example, of course. Anything else would be unacceptable.

Matrix

[kj]

Originally posted by wingchunner
(Somewhat jokingly he said something like:) I am old, balding, fat, gray hair, not very strong, losing my eye-sight, not very fast, not very tall... I am perfect for Wing Chun.:p [ Perhaps KJ can remember it better.]

LOL, I think you remembered it just fine, Marty. :D

Good post, BTW.

Regards,
- kj

[t_niehoff]

If you are looking for an instructor in WCK, then IME there are a few considerations. First, are they genuinely teaching WCK? This is (the only place) where lineage is important -- lineage at least provides some evidence that the instructor had access to "the information" that comprises the WCK approach and training. Second, how much time has the instructor spent practicing/refining his method? It takes time, not to mention lots of hard work, to develop skill and understanding. Third, can s/he actually do what s/he claims to teach? Not against cooperative stuntment ("throw a show punch and watch this") but against real resistance (full intensity, unplanned, etc.) offered by a noncooperative opponent. IME someone that is really good will be happy to demonstrate their skill. In summary, if someone can prove lineage, has put in "the time and effort", and can genuinely make what they do work against skilled, resisting opponents, then they are worth listening to. If any of these factors are missing, then I'd keep looking. TN

Terence

[Matrix]

Originally posted by tmanifold
For example, I am looking to learn Chueng style Wing Chun. The only instructor in my city that teaches Chueng style (that I know of) if not affliated with Chuneg's organization. May I ask how you decided on Chueng-style? In fact, why Wing Chun at all? There must be certain characteristics that attracted your attention. I think someone with martial arts experience can see things that an untrained eye cannot. They seem to offer trial lessons, for a small fee, so why not try it and see how it feels. However.............................
When I do a search on some one, I look for things like professing to be a grand master or even a instructor in a system when in reality he was only a green belt. Or in that the instructor of the instuctor I am researching isn't the grandmaster he says he is but only reached first level instructor status or the equivalent of a shodan. Well then, maybe you have your answer. This alone would make me look elsewhere.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Marky
Because of our own biases, we are no more qualified to pass judgement on the skill of an instructor than an untrained person. We can decide if what they're teaching looks good for OURSELVES (and we can change that opinion ad infinitum), but that's as far as I'd be willing to go. Fortunately, or unfortunately that is what advice is all about. It's a judgement call. There is nothing wrong with passing judgement when asked. We can only see the situation from our own point of view, and the recommendation or lack thereof should be stated as such.
That's why we say "In my opinion" (IMO) or "In my estimation" (IME). Then it is up to the person who posted the question to decide if they value the advice you have provided.

Your mileage may vary,

Matrix

[tmanifold]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I do a search on some one, I look for things like professing to be a grand master or even a instructor in a system when in reality he was only a green belt. Or in that the instructor of the instuctor I am researching isn't the grandmaster he says he is but only reached first level instructor status or the equivalent of a shodan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well then, maybe you have your answer. This alone would make me look elsewhere.


If I had found any of the above I would have an answer but I was just using those as examples. They are not to hard to find in this fruad fill world of ours. And I will try him out but we are going to wait until my wife has the baby first so I have a couple of months.

I chose wing Chun because I have always liked the trapping aspect and the in fighting also it has a reputation as a good art for women and I want to get my wife involved. I choose (I haven't really chosen I am leaning that way though) chueng style because , based on what I have read, I like the principles he has based his system on. However, Wong Shun Leung seems to have had similar principle behind his system as well. I am not adverse to other styles although I am wary of Bozetepe's organization because I don't like what I have read about him personally. The options in my town seem to be Chueng Lineage, Leung Shueng (ray van Raamsdonk) but he doesn't take beginners an AEWTO rep and one other that I don't know the Lineage. So I will probably end up at the Chueng lineage guy unless I find out of some serious fruad.

Tony

[Matrix]

First of all, congratulations on the upcoming birth of your first child. Best of luck to you and your wife.

I noticed in your interview that you are referred to as a "Combatives Expert". Someone of your experience should be able to tell if this Wing Chun holds up after one introductory lesson.


Matrix

[tmanifold]

Yeah that combatives expert thing. I was a little wary of letting him put that up. I was called a Combatives Expert by a certain individual but I hate the term it has a certain connotaion that leaves a lot of expectations. I consider myself a experienced practioner but my experience is mostly Japanese arts and Military H2H and Wing Chun is a little different. I imagine I will be able to make a reasonable decision of his skill at what he does but I still like to check around and make an informed decision. I don't choose my instructors lightly.

Tony

[Grendel]

Originally posted by tmanifold

The options in my town seem to be Chueng Lineage, Leung Shueng (ray van Raamsdonk) but he doesn't take beginners an AEWTO rep and one other that I don't know the Lineage. So I will probably end up at the Chueng lineage guy unless I find out of some serious fruad.

If you have a chance to study with Ray from the listed options, do so. I haven't met him yet, but his writing indicates good insights and a true sifu's attitude to me. In addition, he has a broad experience of a lot of Wing Chun lineages. If he will not accept you as a student, ask him if there is a school he could recommend in your area.

Regards,

[tmanifold]

That actually is a good Idea. I should contact him, thanks.

tony

[reneritchie]

Ray is and awesome guy.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by tmanifold
I imagine I will be able to make a reasonable decision of his skill at what he does but I still like to check around and make an informed decision. I don't choose my instructors lightly. Tony, Nor should you take it lightly. I'm sure that your experience with other arts will prove very useful in helping you to determine whether or not a school/instructor will serve your needs. As I said earlier, when I looked at my current Wing Chun school, I did not have a great impression of Kung Fu, and had no idea what Wing Chun was. Now I have a "little idea" ;).

Best Regards,
Matrix

[Ultimatewingchun]

My first post on this subject was a simple one..."Will I learn to fight on the street in this school and from this instructor"...

I look upon that as the sun, so to speak, in the solar system around which everything else revolves...but as regards the other planets that are revolving...I would say the following:

Can I watch at least 2 or 3 three classes before being pressured
into joining...so that I can see with my own two eyes whether or not -

1) There is enough subjects covered- or is it always the same things

2) Am I allowed to see the advanced students train - especially
in terms of contact sparing...or do I want to risk spending a significant amout of time in the school before I find out that there is little, if any, serious and realistic sparing going on...

3) When they do spar - judging from whatever streetfights I've ever been in or saw...including watching boxing, wrestling, MMA or whatever...am I impressed that these guys are any good?
If so...how good?

4) Do they only do standup striking and kicking moves...or do I see defenses say, against a headlock, a bear hug, a choke from behind...an attack with a knife...or a stick, etc.

5) Is there any grappling or groundfighting of any kind? Or does the instructor take the attitude that this is totally unimportant?
If he does...a red flag should go up in my head...

6) By the same token...this thing I've read about, and perhaps saw some pictures of...chi sao?...do they do this ?...Is it impressive...?

7)Or did I come away from these 3 classes thinking that this chi sao business was overemphasized and overly drawn out...?

8) Did the instructor take time during each of the classes I saw and actually teach and correct each and every student...?

9) Did he do this constantly? Did it look like he communicated his ideas in a way they understood?

10) Did he/she try to intimidate the students with his demeanor?

11) Was he too soft and forgiving? Or was he firm but fair?

12) Was there any kicking? If so, how much?

13) Are his prices too high or too low?

14) Was there at least 15-20 minutes spent at the beginning of every class doing stretching, conditioning, aerobics, etc...If not...another red flag should go up...If he spends an hour on this...another red flag.

15) Does the instructor seem to know anything about breathing, energy, concentration or meditation?...NO....another red flag.

[yuanfen]

Rene- correct on Ray.
Has both curiosity and true humility
and is very analytical without being dogmatic.
he has his own goals in doing and teaching wing chun and
does not get tied up with group think.
joy

[Stevo]

...I choose (I haven't really chosen I am leaning that way though) chueng style because , based on what I have read, I like the principles he has based his system on. However, Wong Shun Leung seems to have had similar principle behind his system as well...

I hadn't realised that they were similar.

I hope Ray Van Raamsdonk will reconsider taking you as a student.

By the way - great website, Tony.

[KenWingJitsu]

PERFORMANCE. Is the only judging criteria that encompasses all.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Stevo
...I choose (I haven't really chosen I am leaning that way though) chueng style because , based on what I have read, I like the principles he has based his system on. However, Wong Shun Leung seems to have had similar principle behind his system as well...

I hadn't realised that they were similar.
Tony,

Most of us don't think they are similar. I suppose at some level they share common ideas, but there are many differences. I would pick the best instructor rather than choose on the basis of perceived differences in the lineages.

Good luck in making your choice.

Regards,

[tmanifold]

I won't claim any great knowledge but one of the things i noticed between the two was the 50/50 weight distibution of the the stance. A chueng style SiFu who I am in contact with mentioned that Chueng, Wong Shueng Leung and Lee Jun Fa were known as a very notorious trio. And that the three of them would often have "rooftop" fights with others. He gave this as a reason for the similarities.

There are so many different teachers of Wing chun as well as different lineages that don't even include Yip man it is almost impossible to keep up with them all but I like what I know of the Chueng lineage. I have a couple of months to do reasearch though and am collecting a very nice collection of video clips from the net to learn more.

Tony

[Bill_G]

Observe a few classes before signing up to
see if it what you want. Some schools have
physically demanding classes where you will
often end up with bruised forearms, which is
what I prefer. I have watched Wing Chun classes
that were much easier and they avoided any
hard contact at all. Personally I feel that conditioning
is a big part of it and you should expect knotted
bruised forearms and sore shoulders for the first
several weeks.

The sifu should be very demanding. If you can't handle
criticism, find another hobby. He should participate
in the classes and lead by example, showing you the
right way.

The should be little emphasis put on rank. Rank means
nothing, knowledge and skill are the only true measures of progress.

All you're gonna get with such a broad question is a bunch of
opinions. Go check out schools, if the students are sloppy
and undisciplined that is usually a good reflection of the sifu.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Bill_G
Some schools have
physically demanding classes where you will
often end up with bruised forearms, which is
what I prefer.
I'm not saying this is wrong, but how do you receive bruises on your forearms doing Wing Chun? Are you swinging your arms into each other?


I have watched Wing Chun classes
that were much easier and they avoided any
hard contact at all.

Are you certain that's what you were seeing? Two expert Wing Chun fighters will seem to be doing very little contending with one another's energy in chi sao. I would go so far to say that hard contact to the arms is not a feature in proper Wing Chun. The only hard contact should be to the head or body of one's opponent and that rarely if they are evenly matched in skill.

I think it would be more relevant to ask how long the students have been with the school. If an instructor has no long term students, with five or ten years or more, and the school has been around for that length of time, then the teacher probably has little to offer over the long run.

A good teacher will be improving along with his students and will be able to continue to refine the skills of his students even after they have learned all the sets. That's just the beginning really.


Personally I feel that conditioning
is a big part of it and you should expect knotted
bruised forearms and sore shoulders for the first
several weeks.

Yeah, for a beginner that's usually true unless they intuitively grasp the structure and so don't use shoulder muscle unduly. Once we've learned some Wing Chun, though, we don't engage the shoulder muscle much, if at all. If a school teaches the use of muscular strength, then it really isn't Wing Chun. A small man or a woman can learn Wing Chun well enough to control huge opponents.


All you're gonna get with such a broad question is a bunch of
opinions.

Unfortunately true. It's sad that so much junk passes for Wing Chun to the uninitiated. Again, Ray is apparently the real deal. Ask him for his best recommendation if you can.


Go check out schools, if the students are sloppy
and undisciplined that is usually a good reflection of the sifu.
I would think just the opposite---that is a bad reflection on the sifu. :p

[tmanifold]

The sifu should be very demanding. If you can't handle

That would be good for me but not my wife. I would prefer a SiFu who can be tactful. I will motiviate myself but my wife (as a beginner) will need a more measured approach until she catches the bug.

Obviously, first hand experience is key. I have done this sort of thing before. I will watch some classes, take a trail lesson if possible sign the shortest contract available(assuming they have contracts) and experience it before making a judgement. However, there are a few arts that extra special care must be taken. WC is one of them, ninjustsu is another and so is BJJ. There is a lot of fraud out there that some one not in the know would not be able to catch on to.

I personally take a 3 pronged aproach. I will pay them a visit to watch and try. I will research them on the net using google or another Search engine. I will also ask at any forums I know where WC is a topic that comes up often as well as people I know personally. This has worked well for me. As long as nothing huge jumps out at me, and for this guy nothing has, I will make a judgement based on my observations.

Tony

[Grendel]

Originally posted by tmanifold
That would be good for me but not my wife. I would prefer a SiFu who can be tactful. I will motiviate myself but my wife (as a beginner) will need a more measured approach until she catches the bug.

Yip Man, Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, TST, the undisputed real deal in the Wing Chun hierarchy (well, except by some monkeys) are all reputed to be good natured, patient teachers. Patience is key. Wing Chun details must be repeated constantly until they sink in. A pushy or belligerent teacher should be a warning to stay away from that school because the agenda is about that teacher, not about the student's needs.


There is a lot of fraud out there that some one not in the know would not be able to catch on to.

That is what I've been warning you against. Talk to the senior students. Talk to the other local Wing Chun teachers. What do they say about the other teachers?


I personally take a 3 pronged aproach. I will pay them a visit to watch and try.

There is no try, only do as Yoda would say. :D You have to have faith in your teacher or you will not commit the necessary effort.


I will research them on the net using google or another Search engine. I will also ask at any forums I know where WC is a topic that comes up often as well as people I know personally. This has worked well for me. As long as nothing huge jumps out at me, and for this guy nothing has, I will make a judgement based on my observations.

I sincerely wish you luck. A good Wing Chun teacher is as rare as a virgin in a brothel.

Regards,

[Bill_G]

I'm not saying this is wrong, but how do you receive bruises on your forearms doing Wing Chun? Are you swinging your arms into each other?

We do a drill called 5 star blocking drill. It is done to
condition the blocking points on the arms and wrists.
We also do drills at full speed. Maybe I've been doing
it wrong, but blocking a punch with a full speed tan sau
can bruise both your wrist and the punchers arm, as
blocking a punch with a boang sau may bruise your
forearm. These bruises will go away with training
as the arms are conditioned.



I would go so far to say that hard contact to the arms is not a feature in proper Wing Chun.
I would like to know more about what types of 2 man drills
you do in your style. We do alot of drills at speed. I've been
taught that to remain relaxed while executing a technique,
tense only on impact, then relax again, but shouldn't the impact
be hard? For example, we do a drill where the one person does
a roundhouse punch. The defense is a pock sau to the upper
arm and a wu sau to the forearm simultanteously. When done at speed, it will hurt the punchers arm a little bit.



Once we've learned some Wing Chun, though, we don't engage the shoulder muscle much
Again, I don't know what kind of drills you do in your style.
One we do is called lop sau. It is a rolling technique where
one person is in boang sau and the others punch is resting
on the persons forearm. The person in boang sau lop saus
the others punching arm. The person that lops then does
an inside whip punch and the other boang saus. This is
done in a rolling motion. It is done with relaxed shoulders
and is supposed to develop sensitivity in the arms. Even
though the shoulders are relaxed, doing this for several
minutes tires out the shoulders. Again, this will go away
after several weeks of training.


I would think just the opposite---that is a bad reflection on the sifu.
Yeah, what I meant is good indicator of his teaching style, which
is poor if his students are sloppy and undisciplined.


The sifu should be very demanding. If you can't handle the criticism
What I meant by this is that he should expect hard work and
dedication. My sifu is a great guy, he always tries to make the
class enoyable, but if we keep screwing up a particular technique,
we can expect to do it over and over until we get it right.

I'm new here, and probably not very good at explaing myself,
so forgive me. I do stand by my statement that you should
expect contact in Wing Chun. You can do the wooden dummy
form correctly and still whack it hard. You will bruise
at first, but to me it is good conditioning.

Grendel, like I said, please explain more about your style. I am
interested in hearing what types of drills you do if there is not
much contact. The reason I switched to Wing Chun from the
Northern style I had practiced previously was because it
has a lot of man on man drills, which to me seems like more
practical training than punching in the air all the time.

[Grendel]

Hi Bill G.,


Originally posted by Bill_G
We do a drill called 5 star blocking drill. It is done to
condition the blocking points on the arms and wrists.
We also do drills at full speed.

I used to do that drill in Kenpo. It's good conditioning for the forearms, but I find that the forearm conditioning in addition to Chi Sao and the Lap Sao drill becomes unnecessary once one gets used to it.


Maybe I've been doing
it wrong, but blocking a punch with a full speed tan sau
can bruise both your wrist and the punchers arm, as
blocking a punch with a boang sau may bruise your
forearm.

You might be doing it wrong from my POV. The Tan Sao is not a Karate-style block. Recognize the truth in this statement by considering what Ng Mui would have taught Yim Wing Chun. Women's forearms cannot take the abuse, so they deflect the energy of a punch, not take it.


I would like to know more about what types of 2 man drills
you do in your style. We do alot of drills at speed. I've been
taught that to remain relaxed while executing a technique,
tense only on impact, then relax again, but shouldn't the impact
be hard?

Not necessarily. The energy developed should eventually be irresistible, but not ballistic in its generation of power.


For example, we do a drill where the one person does
a roundhouse punch. The defense is a pock sau to the upper
arm and a wu sau to the forearm simultanteously. When done at speed, it will hurt the punchers arm a little bit.

That's fine.


Again, I don't know what kind of drills you do in your style.
One we do is called lop sau.

I don't do many drills. The only drills I do are Don Chi Sao and Lap Sao, but I don't do them as you describe below. Don Chi is about finding your structure. Lap Sao too. Lap Sao also provides forearm conditioning. However, it is likely you are missing the importance of developing sensitivity and position if you are using too much force. The three most important principles of Wing Chun training, in order, are 1) position, 2) position, and 3) position.


It is a rolling technique where
one person is in boang sau and the others punch is resting
on the persons forearm.

I would like to quibble with "resting on the person's forearm." The energy in the punching partner should be forward on center, as should the energy of the Bong Sao. The reason it gets easier is usually that the person finally begins to really relax.


The person in boang sau lop saus
the others punching arm. The person that lops then does
an inside whip punch and the other boang saus. This is
done in a rolling motion. It is done with relaxed shoulders
and is supposed to develop sensitivity in the arms. Even
though the shoulders are relaxed, doing this for several
minutes tires out the shoulders.

The shoulders getting tired indicates using too much shoulder muscle. The Lap Sao should be done without muscular force and involves the use of good structure, energy going to and from the ground.


Again, this will go away
after several weeks of training.

Yeah, what I meant is good indicator of his teaching style, which
is poor if his students are sloppy and undisciplined.

What I meant by this is that he should expect hard work and
dedication. My sifu is a great guy, he always tries to make the
class enoyable, but if we keep screwing up a particular technique,
we can expect to do it over and over until we get it right.

This was only a joke. :) Sounds as if your sifu is patient and recognizes the need to repeat himself like a broken record. This is part and parcel of the Yip Man style of teaching as I have always heard it described.


I'm new here, and probably not very good at explaing myself,
so forgive me.

The medium interferes with the message, to paraphrase Marcuse. :) Sometimes, even if we agree, there is a need for clarification before we can be sure. :)


I do stand by my statement that you should
expect contact in Wing Chun.

Right. I was just in need of your clarification about what you meant by that.


You can do the wooden dummy
form correctly and still whack it hard. You will bruise
at first, but to me it is good conditioning.

Perhaps it is good conditioning, but its primary purpose is learning proper position. Whacking it hard may interfere. You have to work up to using power to avoid using the wrong kind.


Grendel, like I said, please explain more about your style. I am
interested in hearing what types of drills you do if there is not
much contact. The reason I switched to Wing Chun from the
Northern style I had practiced previously was because it
has a lot of man on man drills, which to me seems like more
practical training than punching in the air all the time.
I agree with you. Other than the sets, two man training makes Wing Chun one of the most realistic of the TCMA.

Regards,

[mun hung]

Most of the bruises I have suffered were from the attacking half of certain drills. (meaning I am the one attacking the person defending with Wing Chun) If it means I get some bruises from helping my partner out - well, I'm for it.

IMHO - if my partner is to learn anything about defending him/herself, he/she must learn to deal with aggressive pressure(strikes).

(quote) Grendel
You might be doing it wrong from my POV. The Tan Sao is not a Karate-style block. Recognize the truth in this statement by considering what Ng Mui would have taught Yim Wing Chun. Women's forearms cannot take the abuse, so they deflect the energy of a punch, not take it.

I agree with most of your statement, but have you ever used the tan sau to "jam" or "whip" the attacking arm rather than only "deflect"? They don't require much strength either - just timing and structure.

(quote)
I don't do many drills. The only drills I do are Don Chi Sao and Lap Sao.

Are they really the only two drills that you do? I thought that WC was an art that stressed many two man drills. Not meant as an attack - just curious.

(quote) Bill_G
as blocking a punch with a boang sau may bruise your
forearm. These bruises will go away with training
as the arms are conditioned.

How do you get punched in the forearm from doing bong sau? Are you facing your opponent squarely as he throws a punch at you? If you are - what's your distance? Does getting your forearm punched at all seem right to you?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by wujidude

Herbert Marcuse said and implied many things, but probably not specifically this. Maybe you were thinking of Marshal McLuhan?

Aren't I the nerd? OK I'll go sit down and be quiet now.

You're right, of course. First time I've been wrong in over an hour. :D

I saw Marcuse speak once. He was full of crap. :D

Thanks for correcting me.

Regards,

[Grendel]

Originally posted by mun hung

IMHO - if my partner is to learn anything about defending him/herself, he/she must learn to deal with aggressive pressure(strikes).

No argument here. :) One must learn to deal with everything. Have you ever read about the so-called "soft" approach to Wing Chun. The soft approach is the highest level of Wing Chun. Everything else is just for tae kwan dodos. :p


(quote) Grendel
You might be doing it wrong from my POV. The Tan Sao is not a Karate-style block. Recognize the truth in this statement by considering what Ng Mui would have taught Yim Wing Chun. Women's forearms cannot take the abuse, so they deflect the energy of a punch, not take it.

I agree with most of your statement, but have you ever used the tan sau to "jam" or "whip" the attacking arm rather than only "deflect"? They don't require much strength either - just timing and structure.

No. I wouldn't do that.


(quote)
I don't do many drills. The only drills I do are Don Chi Sao and Lap Sao.

Are they really the only two drills that you do? I thought that WC was an art that stressed many two man drills. Not meant as an attack - just curious.

Yep, just those, but lots of Dan Chi Sao. I'll quit when my Wing Chun is perfect. :D


(quote) Bill_G
as blocking a punch with a boang sau may bruise your
forearm. These bruises will go away with training
as the arms are conditioned.

How do you get punched in the forearm from doing bong sau? Are you facing your opponent squarely as he throws a punch at you? If you are - what's your distance? Does getting your forearm punched at all seem right to you?
Distance? About 18 inches. Yes, I am facing my opponent squarely in the Lap Sao drill, standing in Yee Gee Kim Yung Mar. The forearms don't get punched. The forearms meet and absorb the energy into the structure. With both parties using proper form, there is often bone to bone contact, hence the bruises even with conditioning sometimes. Although the Bong Sao may give a bit to ninety degrees, much of the energy can be taken off the punch before the bend reaches that point.

I recommend the Lap Sao against outside styles, but within Wing Chun, it doesn't work very well against a skilled player.

I am not trying to disparage any particular approach in this thread except the unwashed jacobites who mislead their students. I'm merely trying to describe what I do and axe questions about what others do.

Regards,

[mun hung]

(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
Distance? About 18 inches. Yes, I am facing my opponent squarely in the Lap Sao drill, standing in Yee Gee Kim Yung Mar. The forearms don't get punched. The forearms meet and absorb the energy into the structure. With both parties using proper form, there is often bone to bone contact, hence the bruises even with conditioning sometimes. Although the Bong Sao may give a bit to ninety degrees, much of the energy can be taken off the punch before the bend reaches that point.

IMHO - if you are using proper form in lop sau - there shouldn't be an opportunity for hard "bone to bone" contact at all. Remember, lop sau is just a tiny piece of chi sau. And what does chi sau mean?

(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
I recommend the Lap Sao against outside styles, but within Wing Chun, it doesn't work very well against a skilled player.

I disagree. I recommend trying this with outside styles because only they can show you your weaknesses. And it might not work against a skilled anybody.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by mun hung
(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
Distance? About 18 inches. Yes, I am facing my opponent squarely in the Lap Sao drill, standing in Yee Gee Kim Yung Mar. The forearms don't get punched. The forearms meet and absorb the energy into the structure. With both parties using proper form, there is often bone to bone contact, hence the bruises even with conditioning sometimes. Although the Bong Sao may give a bit to ninety degrees, much of the energy can be taken off the punch before the bend reaches that point.

IMHO - if you are using proper form in lop sau - there shouldn't be an opportunity for hard "bone to bone" contact at all.

Remember, we're describing a drill here. If your Lap Sao drill doesn't involve bone to bone contact as described, maybe you have more meat on you than some others. :p


Remember, lop sau is just a tiny piece of chi sau. And what does chi sau mean?

:confused: Chi Sao is the basic platform of Yip Man Wing Chun. What do you do?


(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
I recommend the Lap Sao against outside styles, but within Wing Chun, it doesn't work very well against a skilled player.

I disagree. I recommend trying this with outside styles because only they can show you your weaknesses.

I have frequently, and it tends to work. I find that I don't need to use a lot of variety in dealing with other arts, but it's nice to have alternatives.


And it might not work against a skilled anybody.

True.

[yuanfen]

Grendel sez:
I sincerely wish you luck. A good Wing Chun teacher is as rare as a virgin in a brothel.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
O gee- missed out again?... and I just got back from Las Vegas.
Isnt there a Madonna song-- something about just like a virgin?
Viva Las Vegas? Nah.

Tried briefly to locate Steve Leung- not listed in the phone book or yellow pages- at least witha quick check.

[mun hung]

(quote) Originally posted by Grendel
Chi Sao is the basic platform of Yip Man Wing Chun. What do you do?

Chi sau means "sticky hands".

I train in Yip Man Wing Chun.

[Bill_G]

How do you get punched in the forearm from doing bong sau? Are you facing your opponent squarely as he throws a punch at you? If you are - what's your distance? Does getting your forearm punched at all seem right to you?

The forearms collide, I didn't mean you're getting hit with
a fist in the forearm. The boang sau deflects the punching arm
upward. Yes, I am facing the opponent squarely.

[Grendel]

Mun Hung and BillG,

You lost me. :rolleyes: Are we talking about the same things?

Yuanfen,

I see what it takes to get your attention. :D

Regards,

[mun hung]

Bill_G - IMHO, if the forearms are getting bruised in lop-sau drill:
usually it's too much disconnection, sometimes too much power or just the wrong energy.

[yuanfen]

Grendel sez:
I see what it takes to get your attention.

--------------------------------
WELL!!!:D

[John Weiland]

So, if someone, say an aspiring Wing Chun novice, asks me, "Is this guy any good?," I should say, what, exactly? :D

I could refer them to Rene's diagram (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=312024) and say this will explain the differences. Pick one. :D

Or, does anyone really think that there are no significant definable differences between Wing Chun styles/lineages?

To me, the principles must be intact to remain in the Wing Chun realm, but there are many ways to express them. As such, if I were to offer newbies advice, I could only honestly steer them to an approach that I 1) know, and 2) approve of.

That's OK. The process is a messy one, but better than creating some sort of official Wing Chun board of approval.

Cheers,

[tmanifold]

Ok just a little clarification on the diagram

Leung-I assume that is Lueng Ting? or is it wong shueng Leung?
Twc- is Chueng
what is HFY
" Cho
" Yuen

Good idea I just am a little confused.

Tony

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by tmanifold
Ok just a little clarification on the diagram

Leung-I assume that is Lueng Ting? or is it wong shueng Leung?
Twc- is Chueng
what is HFY
" Cho
" Yuen

Good idea I just am a little confused.

Tony
Hi Tony,

Leung is Leung Jan, Yip Man's teacher.

Regards,