to check a sifu line russellsherry

[russellsherry]

interesting subjet one close , to my heart firstly, i was at a school same one , as dave peterson for quite some time the sifu taught us up to first section bil jee the a couple of wooden dummy sections and some choy lay fut he did not want us to complete the wing chun system , but becuause of good luck we had good fighters,in the school and we learnt to use what we had for the street, but if a person does not teach the whole stlye in 7
or 8 years iwould look around for a new sifu peace russellsherry.but iam lucky to have fround sifu williams

[Stevo]

Hi, Russ. That must have been a while ago. I read an article by David, I think in one of his MCMAC magazines, saying how he'd wasted years learning Wing Chun until he started to learn it properly with WSL - sounds like it was probably the same school you were at together.
Cheers,
Steve

[Miles Teg]

Whats knowing the whole system going to do for you if you havent learnt it properly?

Who says you have to finish the system to be a good fighter?

In tst lineage it takes a long time to learn chum kiu let alone the whole system. But by the time you get to CHum Kiu you should be pretty good with a thorough understanding of SNT.

[sel]

i agree with miles teg. if you want to learn merely to copy the movements without being able to apply them with devastating effectiveness, go ahead and rush through them. if on the other hand you want to learn properly, take your time, step by step and become a real master.
i think it may be possible to learn it all in 7 years if you do all day every day private lessons with a genuine master, but otherwise....you are dreaming!

[anerlich]

I think it's hypocritical to have some WC advocates say "WC was a system designed to develop effective fighters very quickly" and at the same time say "take your time, step by step, and become a real master" (not saying anyone on the thread said both those things).

IMO, if the system can't teach you to become significantly better at fighting and defense within 12 months, you need to look for something more effective. If it's chief aim is something other than competence at self defense, IMO it ain't really Wing Chun.

I think if a dedicated trainee isn't taught the three forms, the dummy sets, and given some exposure to the traditional weapons within five years, the instructor needs to examine his reasons for teaching this way. There is still much to learn after that and if delay is required to enure student retention, or prove loyalty, the student should IMO be seeking a sifu with fewer issues.

In an age of guns, tasers and smart bombs, keeping techniques secret because they may be used against you is ridiculous.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by anerlich
I think it's hypocritical to have some WC advocates say "WC was a system designed to develop effective fighters very quickly" and at the same time say "take your time, step by step, and become a real master" (not saying anyone on the thread said both those things).

I don't know about hypocritical. What you postulate are not opposed positions. While one can learn to fight effectively in a short time with Wing Chun, as you point out later in your post, there is a lot to learn. The traditional Kung Fu approach as I understand it was to "master" a level before being taught the next. But, there are those teachers who have ulterior motives you ascribe to those who don't teach the entire system ASAP. A teacher should teach all he knows as well as he knows with the goal of producing students who are better than he in the end.


IMO, if the system can't teach you to become significantly better at fighting and defense within 12 months, you need to look for something more effective. If it's chief aim is something other than competence at self defense, IMO it ain't really Wing Chun.

IMO, it isn't Wing Chun if the earliest emphasis (within the 1st 12 months) is solely on self defense. In that time, I would expect to see the development of basic principles that in themselves enhance self defense characteristics of the holder.


I think if a dedicated trainee isn't taught the three forms, the dummy sets, and given some exposure to the traditional weapons within five years, the instructor needs to examine his reasons for teaching this way. There is still much to learn after that and if delay is required to enure student retention, or prove loyalty, the student should IMO be seeking a sifu with fewer issues.
Much can be taught in five years, and as you say, there is much more to be learned than the forms.


In an age of guns, tasers and smart bombs, keeping techniques secret because they may be used against you is ridiculous.
Yes. That's not a beneficial motivation. And not a requirement for someone who has something worth teaching. More of a disorder of those teachers who are unsure of themselves and their subject.

[sel]

this is not meant to insult, i truly do believe in what i say. but of course, you will know what is best for you.
sure you can learn everything in such a short time? you can be shown it all, but as for actually being able to apply it in a real situation....no way, unless you have a firm foundation of excellent basic skill leading up to it.
i also think that in learning wing chun you do learn effective self defense in the first 1-2 years and that is great. once you have that taken care of then you can develop it further by studying in depth and with plenty of consistant practise the intricasies of the art such as force generation, absorbsion of force, springy force, thought force........just to be shown the more advanced forms will not garantee you the skill to understand and apply these things with devastating effectiveness. noooo!!
in fact, if you haven't done the prerequisite preparation in the proper way you may even find that these "advanced" techniques don't work for you when you try to use them. why not use the more simple basics with devastating results rather than half baked poorly learnt "advanced" techniques with mediocracy?
if you really think that you can master the system in such a short time without doing full time private study with a genuine master i don't think you understand wing chun at all beyond the superficiality of copying the movements and relying on brute strength to make them work for you. i've seen that many times...it's nothing compared to someone who takes the time to learn all the required steps in order to move on to the next thing.
personally, i believe that a master who teaches you the fast way is ripping you off because they are not taking the time to teach you the inticate subtleties required to build mastery. they are merely teaching you some party tricks. lol.
it may be impressive to be able to look like you can do it all, but it is not awesome. your choice....be impressive or be awesome......mediocre or excellent. it's up to the individual to decide how they want to learn and find a master who will suit their purposes. personally, i prefer the path to awesome than the road to impressive.

[anerlich]

I'm still waiting for the first "awesome" WC trainee to shine in an arena other than unsubstantiated stories of hundreds of streetfights.

Meanwhile, boxers, wrestlers, MMA trainees etc., using systems which are allegedly "crude" in comparison to WC pull off awesome victories regularly.

Kazushi Sakuraba is "awesome". He didn't spend years at the feet of a master (unless you count Takada, who I'm sure would laugh at the notion).

I train with a genuine WC master. I learned all the forms, dummy and the traditional weapons within five years. This is a system which is essentially simple, and that is why it is so effective. There is not the need or justification for keeping the student back to learn the supposed infinite subtleties which IMHO should come after all the movements are learned. IMHO the learnig of WC is best done in a cyclical rather than a waterfall fashion.

There was never any "mediocracy" [sic] in my teacher's tuition.

My money's on the students at my school, for whom learning is a series of ever increasing challenges, over someone who does nothing but SLT and chi sao for 20 years.

[russellsherry]

hi guys i agrree with miles in one way wing chun is so good you can become ok in a short time but for once grendal almost makes a good point ,a teacher should be honerst to one students, if he does not know butteryfly knifes ete big deal send him to someone
who does , in arnis if my goro say did not know largo mono long range stick, guro dantes would,send me to guro inostanto, who
does we should be truthful in the way , we teach peace russellsherry

[Miles Teg]

I guess it depends what you want from Wing Chun and who your role models are for good wing chun.

If I stayed with my old school I would almost be ready to learn the Biu Jee form. At my current one it takes about 5 years to learn chum kiu! But it doesn�ft bother me at all. I don�ft think my teacher is holding back secret techniques or special moves because I know there aren�ft any. The secrets are in Siu Nim Tao, Chi sao and lots of practice of them. We don�ft practice specific combinations or special techniques. In other words what I practice in class now will almost be the same as what I will practice after I learn biu Jee, many years in the future. Its how the teacher feels in chi sau that separates him from us.

But it all hinges on what you want from W.C in the first place that determines what you get out of it. Here are 2 opposite role models in my mind: Emin Boztepe and Chu Shong Tin. I know that this is completely out of context but I think its relevant.

Emin
Incredibly fast
Outstanding physical condition
Well grounded in other arts
Abundant full contact experience
Excellent fighter
Great technical knowledge

Chu Shong Tin
Ability to manipulate the arms fully resisting partner with relaxed limbs
Ability to win out in force against force when demonstrating
Great ability to redirect force to the ground and send it back
In short, he demonstrates amazing power against people much bigger than him, while being able to relax the muscles (met a very large muscular guy who said he almost got his arm dislocated from his gan sau)

Anyway as you can see both of these role models are excellent in their abilities. Both of these role models have worked very hard to get to where they are, but have taken very different paths with different goals in mind. I don�ft know if Chu Shong Tin was/is a good fighter or not. But that doesn�ft bother me, I find it fascinating to learn the body mechanics and mind set that enable you to demonstrate power that goes beyond what your muscles are capable of. And that is what motivates me as a `Wing Chuner�f.

[sel]

a student needs to have faith in his sifu to be able to learn. . accordingly we will all have our own opinions as to which way is best and those opinions will suit our reason for learning in the first place.
my reason for learning is to master wing chun. that is to one day be a genuine master, a master's master.

the reason IMO that "awesome" wing chun students do not "prove" themselves in the ring is because they don't want to kill people. ring fights have rules and set conditions which does not suit real application of wing chun.

i still maintain that in 5 years you have been "shown" the system but have not learned it thoroughly.
btw, now that you "know" the whole system are you a master?

[anerlich]

"the reason IMO that "awesome" wing chun students do not "prove" themselves in the ring is because they don't want to kill people."

Rubbish. If that were so, all the rooftops of HK would be littered with corpses. Emin Boztepe and the other alleged survivors of 300+ streetfights would all be doing hard time for murder.

"ring fights have rules and set conditions which does not suit real application of wing chun."

Hmmm, Rick Spain had 37 pro kickboxing matches and over 100 amateur ring fights and did pretty well. Anthony Arnett has a simlarly impressive record. Some people mightn't be able to use WC in the ring, but the problem is with them, not the system.

"i still maintain that in 5 years you have been "shown" the system but have not learned it thoroughly."

That's fair, but if you haven't been "shown" the system in 5 years then I still maintain you are being ripped off. And if you haven't been shown enough to improve your odds of surviving a confrontation with 12 months, then your are being taught by someone who is not only ripping you off but being recklessly negligent.

"btw, now that you "know" the whole system are you a master?"

I probably think this song is about me ... ;)

I don't think anyone claimed that, me least of all. My Sifu's been training 30 years, including 6 as a full time live in student, teaching professionally since 1986, and doesn't refer to himself as a master (other people do but he doesn't). Does yours? Do you?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
I guess it depends what you want from Wing Chun and who your role models are for good wing chun.

True. My role model for Wing Chun is Yim Wing Chun. :p


If I stayed with my old school I would almost be ready to learn the Biu Jee form. At my current one it takes about 5 years to learn chum kiu!

That's excessive. Andrew's railing about how long it takes to learn the system makes a good point. A serious student with a serious teacher should learn the empty hand forms within a year and begin the muk jong set IMO. The following stages of jong sau, stick, and baat jaam do take some time to get right, but the entire system can be learned within five years in the right situation. Then you can begin the real learning all over again.


But it doesn't bother me at all. I don't think my teacher is holding back secret techniques or special moves because I know there aren't any.

This is true, but not as simple as it sounds. There are no secrets as such, but the devil is in the details.


I know that this is completely out of context but I think its relevant.

Chu Shong Tin
Ability to manipulate the arms fully resisting partner with relaxed limbs
Ability to win out in force against force when demonstrating
Great ability to redirect force to the ground and send it back
In short, he demonstrates amazing power against people much bigger than him, while being able to relax the muscles (met a very large muscular guy who said he almost got his arm dislocated from his gan sau)

Chu Shong Tin is a great example of the real deal in Wing Chun and you've done a fair job of discerning those characteristics important to his Wing Chun.


I don't know if Chu Shong Tin was/is a good fighter or not.

I'm sure that he could more than hold his own against grapplers of his age and size. :D


But that doesnt bother me, I find it fascinating to learn the body mechanics and mind set that enable you to demonstrate power that goes beyond what your muscles are capable of. And that is what motivates me as a `Wing Chuner.

We all have our own motivations for studying what we do. Some of my best friends like MMA and others pure Wing Chun. Different strokes for different folks. Just don't try to tell me you have discovered a better system than Wing Chun unless I can sell you on shares in the Baghdad Saddam Husayn Bridge. :D

Regards,

[sel]

"Rubbish. If that were so, all the rooftops of HK would be littered with corpses. Emin Boztepe and the other alleged survivors of 300+ streetfights would all be doing hard time for murder."

good point! i understand that. however, applying wing chun in an "awesome" manner to me means one or two strikes and your attacker is incapacitated. not fighting for minutes at a time, exchanging blows or brawling. seconds, not minutes. emin is really impressive i think. an amazingly fantastic fighter.

"Hmmm, Rick Spain had 37 pro kickboxing matches and over 100 amateur ring fights and did pretty well. Anthony Arnett has a simlarly impressive record. Some people mightn't be able to use WC in the ring, but the problem is with them, not the system."

also a good point. however, again it is not over in seconds using one or two strikes to incapacitate the attacker.....it is impressive, fantastic world champion ring fighting, but not the awesome simplicity of truly applied wing chun. that world championship he won, wasn't it the last one held of that type because people got seriously hurt (even killed? or is that just rumour?)

an australian heavyweight champion boxer came to take private lessons from our sifu. by incorporating wing chun principles into his strikes he was able to generate more powerful strikes and used it in the ring. he was gobsmacked by how powerful and fast sifu's punches were...he described them as "awesome". still, in the ring, he was boxing, not doing wing chun.

"That's fair, but if you haven't been "shown" the system in 5 years then I still maintain you are being ripped off."

if that is what you want/need as a student. there are plenty of sifus out there who will oblige in that way. for myself though i prefer the step by step building from the strong foundation up, than building a frame and then making it solid by filling it in.


"And if you haven't been shown enough to improve your odds of surviving a confrontation with 12 months, then your are being taught by someone who is not only ripping you off but being recklessly negligent."

definitely agree with you there! i do believe though that a few simple movements learned thoroughly will protect you better in a self defense situation than an array of movements learned in too short a time.

"I probably think this song is about me ... ;)"

LOL great humor! sorry if it appeared sarcastic, it wasn't meant to.

"I don't think anyone claimed that, me least of all. My Sifu's been training 30 years, including 6 as a full time live in student, teaching professionally since 1986, and doesn't refer to himself as a master (other people do but he doesn't). Does yours? Do you?"

no way am i even close to being a master!! still got a long long way to go!!! my sifu does call himself a master, because he is one!! interestingly, he mastered wing chun in a relatively short time through training every day privately with his sifu. after over 40 years of wing chun, although he is technically a master, he still learns from his sifu privately and he will tell you himself that he is also still a student.

[Miles Teg]

Grendal I agree completely with your post.
Where we might be a bit different from other schools is when we start doing chi sao. We start chi sao very soon after learning the movements of SNT. Obviously only learning the movements of SNT doesnt take long at all, perhaps a few classes. I know many other schools advocate starting chi sao after learning the chum kiu form so they have a good foundation.
Anyway I guess you could say we classify SNT into 3 stages.
1. Just the movements
2. Relaxing as much as possible while doing it
3. Using mind intent and visual techniques to guide the movements so that they almost act of their free will.

Obviously to be able to get to stage 3, where every movement in SNT has the right feel to it, takes a while. But the chisao feeds the development of this and vice versa, SNT feeds the development of chi sao. My teacher would gladly teach me the movements of the Chum Kiu form if I asked him, but officially/as a level, we are not supposed to have learnt it with out a firm grounding in SNT.

Anerlic says

{That's fair, but if you haven't been "shown" the system in 5 years then I still maintain you are being ripped off. And if you haven't been shown enough to improve your odds of surviving a confrontation with 12 months, then your are being taught by someone who is not only ripping you off but being recklessly negligent}.

By `shown` I guess you mean `taught`. As my lessons are almost free I dont think I am being ripped off. But I agree that after 12 months you should have better odds in a confrontation and I believe I have. I dont see what learning the forms in and of themselves are going to do to improve your wing chun. Unless you are referring to specific techniques learnt from the forms. At our school we are not so interested in techniques as much as the mind intent and body mechanics (based on sound principles) behind the technique.
Its just a matter of different learning/teaching styles. As you said you learn the whole system in 5 years but it takes many more years to really master it. We consider really mastering the system when we have learned the weapons. That is our measure for mastering it. Its just different styles of learning and teaching.