ATTN: Old Jong

[red5angel]

you said -
Yeah,the soldiers have a job to do.They follow orders...Just like the nazis did. Don't worry ,many Canadians are sorry we are not participating in your massacre.

Well my freind, I was one of those "Nazis" and I served with many more who were honorable and true.
So this is the question, whats it going to take for you and me to meet up? No joke, no huffing and puffing. What will it take for you to make your point in the really real world instead of hiding?

[Water Dragon]

Two months of NHB and Red wants to fight everybody

[red5angel]

not everybody,........ ;)

[Water Dragon]

lol

And be nice to Old Jong. After all, you fought for his right to call you a Nazi. In fact, our troops are out protecting his right to call them Nazi's as we speak.

And yes, I know he lives in Canada.

[red5angel]

I am not fooling around here. Here is my offer to you OJ. I cover your plane ticket, hotel stay, and if you want have a lawyer write up a contract making me cover any medical expenses you might accrue while you are here.
You want to talk about those willing to step up then it's time you showed us what you are made of OJ.

[PaulH]

Hi Red5Angel,

Please don't take it personally with old jong. We are all very passionate in our causes and words can be so needlessly brutal. It's important that we separate the issues from the person. Be true and loving. I'm proud of you and of all our men and women in service.

Regards,

[joedoe]

old jong's name is accurate - he is a pretty old dude. Give him a break. :D

[red5angel]

Waterdragon, it's one thing to have freedom of speech, but I don't take kindly to someone like OJ calling me, or the people I love Nazis. My grandfathers and their brothers served in WWII, every one of them. My father, mother and Stepfather all served in the USAF for over 8 years a piece. Some of my best freinds are right now out there risking their lives. Talking smack over the internet is one thing, but that is too much for me. Everyone of my family members excpet my brothers and sisters, for the last three generations have fought for the freedom of this country in one form or another and I will not have some idiotic kanuk mother fukker comparing them, and myself to that trash.

I don't care how old he is. Nothing gives him the right to talk like that, nothing.

PaulH, being passionate is one thing, accusing anyone but a nazi of being a nazi is an insult that goes beyond standing up for your beliefs. I am sorry but that goes too far.

[Water Dragon]

And just so everyone knows, our own Gary Rommel is currently in Iraq protecting our right to call him a Nazi. He could very well die doing it, so let's keep everything in perspective and give him respect for that.

If you don't, Gary'll come getcha when he gets back. After all, being the Nazi's we are, Gary MUST be out perfecting his death touch on Iraqi women and children.

[Xebsball]

Marcha soldado,
cabeça de papel
Se não marchar direito
vai preso pro quartel

:D

[red5angel]

how about Johnny from KFO, he was still in wasn't he? Where is he at right now? I never heard if he got deployed or not.

Xebsball, I don't read spanish very well so a translation would be nice.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by red5angel
Xebsball, I don't read spanish very well so a translation would be nice.

It's Portugese not spanish.
;)
Quiet a different language.

[red5angel]

"It's Portugese not spanish.

Quiet a different language"

actually smart guy, not all that different ;)

[Christopher M]

http://www.canadianalliance.ca/english/index-details.asp?ID=1915

[@PLUGO]

Yeah, JOHNNY's over there somewhere last I heard...

I have very little regard for "name calling" in general... something it seems many people online have indulged in.

however i'm now confused about:
"In fact, our troops are out protecting his right to call them Nazi's as we speak."

how is this the case?

or was that just y'know an off the cuff Anti-anti-military remark?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by red5angel
"It's Portugese not spanish.

Quiet a different language"

actually smart guy, not all that different ;)

My portugese friends co-workers beg to differ,
Neither did my spanish do much in portugal.

But what do I know I am not american.
;)

R5A climb of that high horse of yours and take a few deep breaths.

You are turning into a carbon-copy of stumblefist.

[red5angel]

DS - It's the irony of being a soldier sometimes. You get to risk your life so that people have the freedom to hate you, call you names and accuse you of being a Nazi or whatever else they want to. It's the same for just about any country that doesn't have an oppressive regime. They all have soldiers and all those soldiers hope they will only ever have to fight the good fight.

[carly]

A soldier CHOOSES to be a soldier and to put himself in a position where he may have to fight.
That doesn't mean others have to be grateful to him for doing so, it's his choice.

[red5angel]

LC - I am aware portugese is not SPANISH, and I wa snot aware that Xebs post was in Portugese however I am aware that Portugese is closely related to Spanish, more so then I felt your post was aluding to.

Regardless, I speak spanish but don't read it well and don't speak or read much of Portugese at all.

however March soldier and what I guess ot be head appear ot be very similar to spanish equivelants.

carly, it's not a matter of being grateful. It doesn't bother me that so many people don't like war and don't believe in the causes some soldiers kill for. It does bother me to be compared to a Nazi, in any way shape or form. This wasn't implied it was a direct accusation.

[Xebsball]

Quartel pegou fogo,
Francisco deu sinal
Acode, acode, acode
A bandeira nacional

[Stranger]

A soldier CHOOSES to be a soldier and to put himself in a position where he may have to fight.

You might want to look at it this way:

Becaue they have volunteered, nobody is knocking on your door to draft your arse.

Cause to be grateful?

[Stranger]

But what do I know I am not american.


LC,

Must every post contain a dig?

[PaulH]

Red5Angel,

There are always people who are abusive to our soldiers. You cannot fight them all. Fight back with reasons and integrity not with fists. Of course it is within your right, but I hope you change your mind.

Regards,

When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush. He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return." It became very quiet in the room.

[Xebsball]

Marcha soldado

Aparentemente inofensiva, a cantiga "Marcha Soldado" é mais do que um hino de rebeldia e ironia. É simples e curta mas muito objetiva. Ensinadas às crianças, ela fica mais perversa. Ela tanto tem o significado de brincadeira quanto uma crítica ao militarismo.
O cabeça de papel foi-nos ensinado como um chapéu de jornal, mas pode ser uma referência ao condicionamento intelectual dos militares e até dos civis, pois todos são levados a não pensar.
A cantiga destaca também a repressão. O ordinário, o inferior deve obedecer as ordens sem questionar ou pensar, caso contrário, ele comete crimidéia e é levado ao Ministério do Amor.
A segunda estrofe é a mais bizarra. Mostra de forma singela o tratamento desumano a favor dos símbolos. O subordinado é quem vai ter que resgatar um pedaço de pano colorido, por mais importante que seja ou represente, mas é ele quem arricas a própria vida. O heróismo do ato tem dois lados: a força representativa de um símbolo e a tirania proporcionada a algo que elas sequer escolheram e não podem contenstar, pois afinal de contas são cabeças de papel.

Por: Leonardo Silvino
http://www.duplipensar.net

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Stranger

LC,
Must every post contain a dig?

Only friendly sarcasm.

;)

[Vapour]

Hmmm, very interesting method of reasoning.

How one prove the correctness of one's position by beating up someone else. If this is the way we settle matter, we can abolish democracy and parliamentary debate. Mike Tyson would be one of the most intelligent person in the world and possibly become U.S. president. He may also declare 2+2 = 5.

How childish. Only thing it show is that you haven't got a brain to argume rationally.

As of killing of civilian in ground warfare, it will become extremely common if it will turn into urban guerrial warfare as seen in Vietnam or recently Somalia. I once had a chat about Iraq in internet with the guy who was in U.S. militarly and he had no problem killing civilians if his arse is on fire. His response was basically that solider's job is to follow order and if that involve killing civilians (well not directly I hoped), it was not his business to argue.

My take is that if you have to shoot civilians to protect your life, you are probably fighting wrong war (as in war of aggression). Fortunately, current war on iraq has not turn into massive civil ressurection against Wester infidel yet. If it does, expect bloodshed.

[Serpent]

R5A, get over yourelf, dude.

[Knifefighter]

R5A:
He's not calling YOU a Nazi. He's comparing the behavior of some soldiers with the unthinking, blind following of orders that Nazi soldiers did. Many people believe the military turns soldiers into this type of automaton. What are you going to do, challenge all of them also?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Knifefighter

Many people believe the military turns soldiers into this type of automaton.

Isn't that what the military training is supposed to achieve.
Shape the soldiers in an effective unit that obeys commands and executes them.
I saw and interesting documentary about troops performance and refusing to fire their rifles in WW II, Korea and the Vietnam war.

As for german soldiers in WW II refusing to obey an order resulted either in a bullet to the head or a visit to the camps.
:( :(

Too many people also equal average german soldiers to the SS or Gestapo troops.

Just some thoughts.

P.S.: Not all the soldiers were national-socialists by choice, every german HAD to join the Hitler-youth and the party.

[dezhen2001]

sounds the same as iraq LC - my best friends cousin was "drafted" in to the iraqi army - or else his family would be killed :( He hasnt heard from his relatives in iraq since this all started and dont even know if his cousin is alive :(

dawood

[ZIM]

Okaaaayyy... So exactly HOW MANY women have guilty fantasies of being whipped & stuff by men dressed up as frumpled french Canadians...? Face it, dude, yer jealous...


[really, not a welcome remark... call Bush a Nazi if you must call out names, he's paid enough for it...]

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
R5A:
He's not calling YOU a Nazi. He's comparing the behavior of some soldiers with the unthinking, blind following of orders that Nazi soldiers did. Many people believe the military turns soldiers into this type of automaton. What are you going to do, challenge all of them also?
Thanks for understanding Knifefighter!...I certainly don't expect our friend R5A to do the same.
Hey Red!...I have to deal each and every days at work with obsessive/compulsive minds.That's enough! I used to like you better when you were playing groupie to Carl Deschiara . Now you are a crusader of the holy war against evil. Good for you .Enjoy and don't forget to wipe off that white foam coming out of your mouth.

[Internal Boxer]

Red Angel

Mate you seriously need to chill out, by threatening another human being with violence is a very very sad thing, just when the matter in question relates to views and opinions no matter how extreme they may appear.

When I was a climbing arborist (tree surgeon), there was inevitably instances where we were felling trees that resulted in members of the public appearing from nowhere to give us grief, all they saw was a tree being felled and got very emotional at its loss, I have told people I was just "doing my job" which on more than one occasion I was told "You are just like the Nazi guards at Auchwitzh, just doing your job". And this was a personal insult, which I did not take any offence to as I could see her point of view and understood her upset.

I do not agree with Old Jong's opinion but I understand how he feels. Red Angel your attitude is like a child having a tantrum, offer objective reasoning do not let your anger or hate control you, this will lead to a troubled life.

[Vapour]

I once read a comment by a Catholic priese whose name I can't remember (let assume his name as John Smith). He said that when he introduce himself as a priest, lot of people hate him or like him just for him being a priet but none of them know about him as a person, John Smith. So in this sence, someone calling you a Nazi was definitely unfair not that I approve of your Nazi like response.

As of German in WWII, there were large number of German soliders who were excecuted by its own force.

[old jong]

I have to admit that the term "nazi" applied more to a certain regime than to individuals.Most german soldiers were just like any country soldiers,following orders out of fear or training. Some of them were enjoying and advocating killing innocent people from a certain culture or anybody in their path.Those were the real nazis. They were blindly following Himler propaganda and believed that they only,possessed the truth and were superior to the rest of the world.

[BeiKongHui]

r5a if you don't want to be compared to a NAZI then don't act like one.

Also, I must agree with OJ. These obsessive streaks you go on are disturbing. Have you considered medication.


Also, to those of you who claim the military is fighting "for my freedom" in Iraq....puh-leeze. My own government the creators of the Patriot Acts 1 & 2 are far more of a threat to my "freedom" than the Iraqi's. If you're going to support Bush at least have the intellectual honesty to give resaons based in reality.

[red5angel]

Old Jong, my offer stands man, out of my pocket you come on down for a little visit.

and OJ, you need to do some research on the difference between NAZI soldiers and Regular german army in WWII to get your facts straight pal. Don't go mouthing off about something you apprently don't really understand.

You know what enrages me OJ, and everytime I think about it my blood boils. guys like you probably wouldn't open their trap in public or in front of someone when it really counts. Most of the time I can ingnore your special brand of ignorance but you my freind take the cake, sitting on your fat old ass at homemaking comments about things you have no comprhension of. you need to go back to the wing chun forum where the majortiy of the people sit around fooling themselves into thinking they are epxerts at something, you can feel right at home wallowing in that ignorance and misundertanding.

[@PLUGO]

Also, to those of you who claim the military is fighting "for my freedom" in Iraq....puh-leeze. My own government the creators of the Patriot Acts 1 & 2 are far more of a threat to my "freedom" than the Iraqi's. If you're going to support Bush at least have the intellectual honesty to give resaons based in reality.
...well said BeiKongHui.

RED... it seems you're slipping into broad stroked generalizations:

you need to go back to the wing chun forum where the majortiy of the people sit around fooling themselves into thinking they are epxerts at something,

how different is that statement from the one you originally took offence to?
Stripping away the particulars...

wing chun forum/soldiers/generalized group

sit around fooling themselves/They follow orders/what they do that they shouldn't

wallowing in that ignorance/Just like the nazis did/this is why they are not like "me/we"

[@PLUGO]

um.. huh?

reason for what?

reason to support BUSH?

we should support BUSH because we where born in a country with a bill of rights?

I'm not sure I understand your meaning...

[apoweyn]

Oh, for pity's sake, people. Red5Angel is NOT acting like a nazi. Good christ. I'm absolutely terrified at the casual manner in which people are slinging that word around in this conversation.

Red5 is riled up. Maybe too much so. But how dare anyone compare that to genocide?!

As to the original point: Yes, many 'nazis' were just following orders. So soldiers have done from the very beginning of an organized military. The horrifying thing about the nazi regime was not that soldiers followed orders, but that they followed THOSE PARTICULAR orders. Genocide.

To claim that there's some similarity between that and Iraq is, in my (admittedly uninformed) opinion, blatantly unfair. But it's Old Jong's right. And, Red5Angel, as much as I would be outraged at the comparison myself, it's probably best to just roll with it.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Vapour,


How childish. Only thing it show is that you haven't got a brain to argume rationally.

Slinging the term 'nazi' around casually ain't exactly reasoned debate either. Shame you couldn't find some alternative in this post:


So in this sence, someone calling you a Nazi was definitely unfair not that I approve of your Nazi like response.


Stuart B.

[BeiKongHui]

Personally, I think Bush is an idiot. The fact that I will be around to post a month from now after stating that publicly should be all the "reason based in reality" you need.

Again that has SQUAT do to with Bush's war for oil in Iraq. Not to mention that the biggest threat to my GOD GIVEN (not government given) right to call Bush a simian fool is under a threat bt the Republican administration not Saddam.

r5A-I'd be happy to sub for OJ. You've talked quite enough of your ultra nationalistic goobledegook to our French Canadian brother. Maybe you need to find a new "kick" to obsess over.

[BeiKongHui]

I agree the term Nazi has been used too loosely in the past. However, these days it seems to be a term that actually fits a certain segment of the American population. Being a fascist doesn't mean that you automatically start killing Jews.

Fascist/Nazi POV's are expoused by many on the right such as the "love it or leave it", scape goating (liberal, welfare queen, etc.), anti diversity, total allegience to the state, Using the Big Lie (such as the liberal media, the Iraqi's caused 9/11, etc.).

You know there are people in Europe that have bumper stickers that show Bush & Hitler and say something to the effect of "Different face, Different place, Same ol Sh!t." the fact that people who saw Hitler up close and lived through the Nazi era feel like that about the President Select indicates there is a serious, serious problem.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Design Sifu

I'm not sure I understand your meaning...

It's not that hard to understand really. The first thing you need to do, is to quit putting words into peole's mouths and making up statements for your agenda. In other words, I challenge you to produce any piece of text where I even allude to the statement that I support George W. Bush.

Once we can get that matter settled, we can throw aside the fact that the diplomacy leading up to this may be one of the biggest blunders ever made by a US President. We can throw away the fact that the main reason we are at war now is that Bush wanted this war, and he was gonna have it no matter what. We can put aside the fact that Oil is a big motivator in this war.

So let's also put aside the fact that Saddam Hussein is a monster. We will put aside that he has destroyed whole villages with chemical weapons immediately following the 1st Gulf War. We can put aside the torture chambers, the rape rooms, the constant intimidation, etc.

So now, after looking at the above and putting it aside we can come to the following conclusion. The situation we are in is NOT black and white. There is no one man good, other man bad going on. There is no right and wrong. There's just this huge gray area in the middle that no one really wants to touch. People either eat everything the Pro-War side spits out, or they eat everything the Anti-War feeds them and spits it out. spoon fed ideology is very easy, even if it makes someone a sheep.

So let's look at what remains, that is the deciding factor. First question that remains.

After this war, will the Iraqi people be in a better position than they were under Saddam Hussein? I think yes. But that's not the point of this post.

The point of this post is that no matter who is right or wrong, our American Troops are out there fighting for us. They are fighting so that my children will not be the ones fighting. They are fighting to remove the threat of Saddam helping other groups attack US soil. They are fighting to protect us.

I support that. I also support the American troops that are out there fighting for that. I also support the fact that you can bad mouth the US as much as you want and not have to fear the consequences.

[apoweyn]

BeiKongHui,

Fair enough. But that particular comparison isn't what I'm objecting to. I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough to say whether that very unfortunate comparison is also very accurate.

Nor do I dispute the existence of genuine fascists. What I'm objecting to is the slinging of the word at Red5Angel based on his taking offense. People are saying he's acting like a nazi simply because he's overreacting to Old Jong's comments. THAT'S not fascism. And the fact that people feel that it's an appropriate use of that term is kind of appalling, given the actual atrocities perpetrated (and perhaps still being perpetrated) by such groups.

The day that crying 'nazi' becomes an acceptable debate tactic will be a very sad day indeed.


Stuart B.

[PaulH]

I understand Red5Angel's rage. A long time ago, I thought of becoming a soldier to hunt down all the pirates who killed and victimized all the defenseless Vietnamese boat refugees in SE Asia myself. I saw too much atrocities for my own good and even drank water for months from a well that has two dead people under it in Cambodia's Prison camp - A bitter legagy of the Khmer Rouge to their own people. The thing is people do not take it kindly if you insult them like that having endured through such horrors. I learn now not to hate them any more for they are just blind, ignorant, or tragic victims of their time and place.

[Budokan]

"Two months of NHB and Red wants to fight everybody"



:D

[@PLUGO]

Originally posted by BeiKongHui:
Also, to those of you who claim the military is fighting "for my freedom" in Iraq....puh-leeze. My own government the creators of the Patriot Acts 1 & 2 are far more of a threat to my "freedom" than the Iraqi's. If you're going to support Bush at least have the intellectual honesty to give resaons based in reality.

Water Dragon's Reply:
Personally, I think Bush is an idiot. The fact that I will be around to post a month from now after stating that publicly should be all the "reason based in reality" you need.

I appologize if I came off as putting words in your mouth. Not my intent.

I'm not into the debate on the what or why behind our troops are in Iraq. That's for the other thred...

What I'm trying to understand here is how, if or are you equating the military activity in Iraq with the protection of our freedom of speech particularly in light of Patriot Acts 1 & 2?

Yes we're all free to talk smak about anyone in the public eye, in this case our current President. A statement like "our troops are out there right now, fighting to protect those rights" implies that those rights are being threatened by our current enemy.
If so; how?

If not; then I don't see the relevance of that statment in this context. That's where I do not understand how the fact that you, or any of us, will be around a month from now after stating that Bush is an idiot publicly should be all the "reason based in reality" to support his decision to declare a war. That is essentially how I understood your reply to BeiKongHui & why I'm asking for clarification.

I don't see how current military activity is protecting my freedoms. I do however see that current activities being taken by members of our government's administration are threatening our freedoms.

[Water Dragon]

Short answer: The Iraqi people do not have those rights now. They will have those rights when this is over (Same as they will have a highly industrailized, Western European type society when this is over. That's how we'll secure the oil industry)

Long answer:
Let's look at what we know. We know, from confiscated terrorist manuals what terrorist organizations want. They want western society completely OUT of the Middle East, and they want a world dominated by Islam. More or less the same thing that's been going on since the crusades.

We also know that there are two different versions of Islam, Sinni and Shi'ite. I always forget which is which, but basically, The Muslims out of Iran and Iraq are what we would consider moderates. They eat McDonalds, buy their kids Barbie dolls, had Pro-Western governments in the 1970's.

The other sect are what I would call the fundamentalists. Islam is the only way, the world must be converted. If the word doesn't work, the sword will suffice. They want to destroy Western Civilization and replace it with Arabic Civilization. This is why they hate America the most, not because we are the Great Satan (Western Society itself is really the Great Satan. But the U.S. is the head of the snake, destroy the head and the body will die.

So what we have in fornt of us is a HUGE moral dilemma. We don't believe in destroying culture, but they do. And they will continue to try and cut the head off the snake no matter if we do anything or not. So we are forced into an "Us vs. Them" scenario. Even though it is morally repugnant to the Western Mind.

The only thing we don't really know for sure is exactly how many of the Muslims that belong to the fundamentalist sect think like this. From what I've seen (CNN, Aljezeera, talking to some of the Muslims I know) it is a large majority.

So this war is coming no matter what. It is inevitable. If we don't fight it, either our Children or Grandchildren will. And right now, we are fighting to maintain our culture, our way of life, our beliefs and ideals.

Like I said, it's a terrible situation with no clear cut answers. But in the end, while I don't believe this war is a good thing OR the right thing, I have come to the conclusion that it's the only choice we have. Fight or our freedom, or lose it.

[dezhen2001]

water dragon: the technical stuff about different sects is a bit muddled but fundamentalism is a big problem :( not only for you guys but for the rest of us so called "moderate muslims" too - remember its gonna ALSO be our children too - as the fundamentalists call us "infidels" as well! (because to them things are black and white and they dont accept any version of islam than their own twisted one).

The main trouble stems from a sect called "wahabbism" which is based on the writings of a Scholar from the middle ages who was more extreme because they were fighting the mongol invaders - hence the military camp overtone. They actually reject the traditional form of islam and writings of the notable scholars from throughout the ages.

its really a trouble :(

dawood

[@PLUGO]

I'm Glad we've moved away from the original topic of this thred:

I truely Hope once it's all said & done Iraq resurfaces with all the freedoms we in the west take for granted. I'm also hoping the cultural heritage of a city as old as Bagdad isn't lost. I fear for the tendancy of western culture to "strip mine" other cultures for the benifit of "our way of life" and am extremely suspect of the "subculter" many of "our" leaders seem to stem from...

"Our way of life" is far from perfect and we as a society should probably be much more active in determining what should be preserved and what is better left in the past. Consider John Ashcroft, his definition of the American way of life is very different than mine. The Patriot Acts are already poised to threaten cornerstones to my view of the "American Way" and we're both parts of the western world. In that light the East vs. West duelism seems skewed.

Perhaps another view is "Fundimentalist vs. Moderate" perhaps we could replace "moderate" with "modernist" or if you'll let me get romantic "futurist"? am I going too far out there?

Ashcroft strikes me as dangerously fundimentalist in his own right. This is the guy who ordered a burka placed on the statue of justice cause he didn't want to see her marbel breasts... how Talaban is that?
Okay Okay, so Ashcroft doesn't order h0m0sexuals crushed under a wall; I was trying to be funny (http://homepage.mac.com/leperous/.Pictures/you.jpg) :p

Someone important said the price of freedom is vigilance. It feels like our freedoms are being threatened on multiple fronts, abroad and at home. The tricky part is determining which threat is more emmanent and what's an appropiate responce.

I'm not sure I agree with the theory that "we're" fighting a war now so that our children won't have to. A WWII vet siad that same reasoning inspired his involvement in WORLD WAR II. He also talked of the disillusionment that followed with Korea, Vietnam, etc. I don't see how combat in Iraq now, will resolve the problem once and for all.

It may... or it may seem to on the surface. In that one particular nutjob in power is no longer in power. There will be other nutjobs and there are those in power now that are hardnoses today & may grow into nutjobs tomorrow.

There's a flaw in how Power is used on the world stage. As the most powerful "we" also have the responsibility of examining and rectifing those flaws, for the sake of out children. Iraq and the like seems like an endevor to do so on the "outside" but "we" seem to be either missing or in denial of opportunities to resolve inequities in our internal power structure with-in this Oh so fine Nation of ours.

Jeeeze, talk about another rambling rant . . . I gotta stop before I get myself in trouble :eek:

[vingtsunstudent]

''you need to go back to the wing chun forum where the majortiy of the people sit around fooling themselves into thinking they are epxerts at something, you can feel right at home wallowing in that ignorance and misundertanding.''
wow red, talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
i rember a certain preacher who was going to show the world what real wing chun was and that nobody but him was studying under the true person who has it all.
as for the rest of this dribble you are going on with, all you have done again is prove what most of us knew from the moment you you opened your full of $hit mouth and started raving on about how great you are, how hard you train, how much understanding you have about absolutely everything and how much better even you will still become given time before you come and teach the rest of us just where we're all going wrong,
and that is that you are an absolute WANKER.
leave laa laa land and grow up you silly little child.
the last time you threatened to beat someone, up that i remember, was a woman who you believed to be stalking your mother.
wow tough guy, your looking good for your progression to the UFC with what i can only imagine is due to the dedication you showed in lasting so long with wing chun, you've gone through the ranks of of wanting to beat up women to picking on poor old jong, look out tito, i don't think you'll be holding on to that title for much longer.
as for asking if old jong is the type who opens his mouth in public, i would like to ask if you have been and confronted your beloved carl and sprouted your mouth off about the feelings you now have about wing chun, or do you just come here and do it?
cuts both ways , oh deadly internet warrior.
regards
your secret lover
vts

[Water Dragon]

Here's the thing Design Sifu. I don't disagree with anything you said. I also don't agree with everything you said. We're in a situation where the "truth" is just not perceptible. In fact, the "correct" decision is net even clear. It could go both ways and both sides have valid arguments.

The only thing that bothers me is no one really wants to accept that and try to weed through all the grey so that they can get as close to the truth as possible.

[dezhen2001]

WD: agree with everything you just said. :)

dawood

[@PLUGO]

I hear you man...

it's what makes me most suspicious of those who claim moral certainty & rightousness

truth as casualty and all that...

The only thing that bothers me is no one really wants to accept that and try to weed through all the grey so that they can get as close to the truth as possible.

Yeah, factor in who gains from the obscuring of truth & who looses what from the unveiling of truth... and the other way around. On the homefront as well as abroad...

seems like we've betten the topic flat unless we want to nitpick on our disagreements... :p

[dezhen2001]

im sure someone will find somehting to argue about somwhere :D

dawood

[old jong]

Originally posted by red5angel
Old Jong, my offer stands man, out of my pocket you come on down for a little visit.

and OJ, you need to do some research on the difference between NAZI soldiers and Regular german army in WWII to get your facts straight pal. Don't go mouthing off about something you apprently don't really understand.

You know what enrages me OJ, and everytime I think about it my blood boils. guys like you probably wouldn't open their trap in public or in front of someone when it really counts. Most of the time I can ingnore your special brand of ignorance but you my freind take the cake, sitting on your fat old ass at homemaking comments about things you have no comprhension of. you need to go back to the wing chun forum where the majortiy of the people sit around fooling themselves into thinking they are epxerts at something, you can feel right at home wallowing in that ignorance and misundertanding.
You know you make Ralek look good with posts like that?...Go see a doctor,you need it!.

[dezhen2001]

just another day at the office OJ? :)

dawood

[old jong]

Just another day!...;)
My diagnostic holds. Obsessive /compulsive. With maybe a depressed paranoidal aspect. Quasi religious or mystic delirium associated with hidden guilts.

Maybe 50cc resperidal 3 times a day would help.

[old jong]

This sad thread reminded me of a related part of WWII history.

When the Germans invaded Russia,they where under the strong impression that the Russian people would greet them as liberators from the evil dictatorship of Staline.Of course there were peasants welcoming them with flowers and everything but this did not last for a long time.
It did'nt take long before a very patriotic resistance began to form against the german army's. Looks like defending their own soil was more important than being "liberated" by aliens.
After some times every Russian was behind Staline to defend the motherland.The outcome is in all history books. people,even under hard conditions prefer a dictator of their own than some alien ones.

[David Jamieson]

ok, some posters here need to take a deep breath.

observations of a situation that we are all not "directly" involved in shouldn't be misconstrued as personal attacks.

personal attacks and threats shouldn't be slung here.

I have my views and opinions about this invasion overseas. Others have theirs.

Let's not lose sight of what we are saying by digressing into mud slinging and threats.

Thanks
Cheers

[dezhen2001]

u know OJ Bush and the others have done something no other middle eastern could ever do - reunite a LOT of Muslims form all over for 1 cause. I know it and can see it everywhere around me - the lesser of 2 evils is the evil u know about.

dawood

[David Jamieson]

Bates Motel-

You bring up an interesting point and that is that you have inferred a connection between Iraq and 9/11.

There isn't and there never has been any evidence that the Iraqi government was oin any way shape or form involved witrh the Al Queda group or the attack on the WTC in 9/11 2001.

Now, what is interesting is that polls in the U.S show that 40% of the population believes that Iraq was directly involved in that attack.

So, it leads many people outside the influence of the US media and politics to wonder where, why, how and when did that connection get made?

Many people are still asking this very question.

I didn't like 9/11 either. I think the United Nations task force was fully justified in going into afghanistan and seeking out Osama Bin Laden and taking out the Taliban which was openly recruiting terrorists and fully supporting the Al-Quaeda. This was a known fact with tons of evidence from many sources to support it.

In regards to Iraq, there has never been credible evidence submitted in regards to any of the allegations that the Bush administration is using to invade the country.

the wmds? none found so far. The connection to Al-Queada? Not there. In fact, Al-Quaedas strongest ties are with the Saudis and the Egyptians afetr the taliban.

The Bush administration members can do nothing but reiterate worn out rhetoric each and every time they are confronted with the facts. This rhetoric they are feeding us is absolutely no where near the real truth of the situation.

My view is that Bush and his ilk are misleading their own people, outright lying on many accounts and obfuscating the truth at every opportunity in an attempt to install yet another puppet regime in the region that will support the US interests there.

To think that the reason for the invasion of Iraq by the US and UK is "the war on terrorism" is the height of being naive.

It is very difficult for anyone to think they have made a bad or wrong decision. It is even more difficult for anyone to admit they have made a bad decision.

There are numerous lessons in the past that indicate this invasion of Iraq is wrong , immoral and unethical on multiple levels. But that doesn't stop the boys who risk only their countrymen from dragging all of you along into it.

Now, the body bags are coming home, people are going to start asking why? why? why?

wait and see what comes of this.
the impact will be for years to come.

cheers

[@PLUGO]

Anyone else think the relavent parts this thred Should go in the All Iraq topics thred, while the ****ing matches should maybe just get tossed?

[PaulH]

Kung Lek,

I appreciate your voice for reasons. All I can say with regard to WMD is "wait and see'' indeed. Even now as I type this post, I just see this on the news wire (perhaps a little too premature and is still developing):

"U.S. troops today found thousands of boxes of white powder, nerve agent antidote and Arabic documents on how to engage in chemical warfare at an industrial site south of Baghdad.
"It is clearly a suspicious site," said Col. John Peabody of the 3rd Infantry Division."

Of course, one can always say it's planted! Who knows? Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.

[Xebsball]

Hey you guys here is one:

Do you know why that huge bomb is called the Mother of All Bombs?

Cause it will give birth to thousands and thousands of SUICIDE BOMB-MEN

[PaulH]

On second thought, as the Iraqi war seems to be increasingly more a war of rhetorics. This article is quite relevant on why we fight as the body bags are coming home.

Why We Fight (Americandaily.com)
By Scott Shore on Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:00 pm
For many of us, the reason for dismantling the Iraqi regime has been clear for many years and about 12 years overdue. As the President and the Administration have often reminded us, this is a government that attacks its neighbors, offers safe haven to global anti-Western terrorists, commits genocide against its own population and has created torture chambers the like of which are unmatched in their barbarity. Beyond this, the Iraqi regime has been building a stockpile of lethal weapons that could easily wreak untold havoc on the civilized world.

As the drama unfolds among the Arab states, the reason for fighting this war should come into even clearer focus for the observant. Typical of fighting in the Muslim world, no code of honor among combatants is sacred. So-called civilians ensnare our troops by waving the “white flag” of surrender before these fedayeen (irregular terror fighters) open fire on Coalition troops. To those of us who have watched the tactics of the PLO and the various terror squads in Israel for most of our adult life, this horror has lost its shock value. For Israelis this enemy that our journalists call terrorists, monsters, thugs…etc. are the common fare of Israeli daily existence to protect the lives of its citizens.

We have long known about the “protection money” that Saudi Arabia pays to these interlocking terror groups, which includes Al-Quaida. Syria, the Palestinian territories, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Egypt, Sudan and Pakistan have long served as training bases and logistical/intelligence supports to these quasi-governmental groups. Indeed, the PLO IS the government of the Palestinian territories. Making peace with the Palestinians is like trying to embrace Afghanistan under the Taliban and Al-Quaida.

The latest news is that Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah, and our “peace partners” in the PLO are sending “homicide bombers” to kill American forces in Iraq. Nothing is being done by Jordan or Syria to shut off their borders. Our “moderate” ally, Jordan, just let four busloads of Iraqi men dedicated to fighting the Coalition infidels cross their border to create mischief in the West of Iraq. Secretary Powell has been clear that Syria is providing weapons and night goggles to the enemy. US Intelligence reports that Saddam’s WMD were delivered in truckloads over the border into Syria.

What is going on? The answer is fairly simple: A reasonably free Iraq in the center of the Muslim world presents a threat to the legitimacy of all the surrounding dictatorships. A Free Iraq as a permanent feature of the Middle East means an end to the self-contained darkness of hatred and bigotry which these regimes need to explain the suffering they have foisted upon their own people. An alternative model of a Muslim state in the heart of Arabia unravels the status quo of over sixty years.

Former Secretary of State James Baker III entirely missed the point when he was quoted as saying “F*** the Jews, they don’t vote for us anyway.” with respect to US policy toward Israel. The fact is that Israel is fighting the exact same war we are fighting. It is not Jews that the Arabs hate but what the Jews stand for: liberal democracy, independent courts, open elections, free press, capitalism and social tolerance. In short, Israel is a bastion of Western and American values in that benighted region. The Arab goal has never been coexistence but always annihilation of the “Zionist/American entity.” The moderate Arabs believe in the destruction of the West in tactical stages, the radicals are for all out Jihad. To claim that the fanatical Wahhabi branch of Islam has hijacked the religion may be an interesting historical note, but it is the dominant ideology of the region. The fight by the Arab rogue states to defend Saddam is not out of love for Saddam but out of self-preservation. The fight to defeat Saddam is no less a matter of self-preservation of the West.

The syncophancy of France and Germany notwithstanding, the West is finally seeing that we are in a Clash between Civilization and Barbarity, between Light and Darkness, between Freedom and Serfdom. The US and the West is paying a price for demanding that Israel make peace with murderers. Those whom we have placated have come to kill our own troops. Those with whom we blithely suggest “the diplomatic solution” flew into the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. By holding back the mighty swift sword of Israel, we have permitted the disease of Gaza and Arab Terror to spread throughout the world. Had we only permitted the Israelis to crush the terrorists in 1967 or 1973 or in Lebanon, we might not now have emboldened the fedayeen to threaten our cities and our ports.

We fight for a free Muslim world and the eradication of terror as a means of warfare. We fight to end the global network aimed at the Free World. We must also fight to end the cancer at the center—the irrational hope—that the Palestinians should or could have a state West of the Jordan River. If King Abdullah is so keen on the Palestinians, give him the country he inherited by no merit of his own from the UK after World War Two. As long as the Palestinians are permitted to be a rallying point for the radical Muslims, it is true that there will be continuous strife in the region—but not in the sense that the Arabists say. Should the Palestinians get a state it will be a reward for sixty years of terror. Should the Palestinians be forced to accept Jordan as the already existing “Palestinian” state, it will end the fires of fanaticism once and for all. The reason we fight in Iraq is to create a lasting and permanent peace, the peace of the brave, for the entire world.

[dezhen2001]

no point in trying to have a conversation here. :rolleyes:

dawood

[shaolin kungfu]

no point in trying to have a conversation here.

But if you don't keep the argument going, ignorance wins and we all become the willing slaves of the government.

[dezhen2001]

its already won on both sides my friend. u look for a reason why many more people are going to iraq and "against" america you need to look no further than that.

dawood

[old jong]

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials


Sounds familiar?...

[Xebsball]

i invite you to go see the big holes the US army is doing in Iraq and the others they done in the past... the old ones are probably already covered by now though :D

the thing about the chemicals thang needs to wait for further evidence, might be propaganda, as i remember very well in the early days when this war began on the news they saying WE FOUND STUFF. Then a little later that news quickly disapeared as there was no evidence at all, it was just some shyte the governament had planted on the pathetic us media (wich is a tool of the governament right now, piece of shyte that openly accepts censorship)

[Xebsball]

You not into revolucionarios? :D

[old jong]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
u know OJ Bush and the others have done something no other middle eastern could ever do - reunite a LOT of Muslims form all over for 1 cause. I know it and can see it everywhere around me - the lesser of 2 evils is the evil u know about.

dawood

It is true!...Bush,blinded by his biblic mission could never understand that "Arabs" will always prefer a dictator of their own over an invader...Specially if he's American. Suicide attacks happens almost every day in israel,expect a lot more in Irak and for decades!...Nobody can force democracy in a country. It even is'nt "democratic" to do that.

[PaulH]

Hi Old Jong,

Greetings! It seems we know each other from the old WCK forum.
I respect what you said so far. But stories like these always make me wonder if people really know what the real Iraqis think.

Protester Discovered Truth in Iraq
I Was Wrong About War
By Ken Joseph, Jr.


Amman, Jordan—I was wrong. I had opposed the war on Iraq in my radio program, on television and in my regular columns—and I participated in demonstrations against it in Japan. But a visit to relatives in Baghdad radically changed my mind.

I am an Assyrian Christian, born and raised in Japan, where my father had moved after World War II to help rebuild the country. He was a Protestant minister, and so am I.

As an Assyrian I was told the story of our people from a young age—how my grandparents had escaped the great Assyrian Holocaust in 1917, settling finally in Chicago. There are some 6 million Assyrians now, about 2.5 million in Iraq and the rest scattered across the world. Without a country and rights even in our native land, it has been the prayer of generations that the Assyrian Nation will one day be restored.

A few weeks ago, I traveled to Iraq with supplies for our church and family. This was my first visit ever to the land of my forefathers. The first order of business was to attend church. During a simple meal for peace activists after the service, an older man sounded me out carefully.

Finally he felt free to talk: “There is something you should know—we didn’t want to be here tonight. When the priest asked us to gather for a Peace Service, we said we didn’t want to come because we don’t want peace. We want the war to come.” “What in the world are you talking about?” I blurted.

Thus began a strange odyssey that shattered my convictions. At the same time, it gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.

Because of my invitation as a “religious person” and family connections, I was spared the government snoops who ordinarily tail foreigners 24 hours a day.

This allowed me to see and hear amazing things as I stayed in the homes of several relatives. The head of our tribe urged me not to remain with my people during its time of trial but instead go out and tell the world about the nightmare ordinary Iraqis are going through.

I was to tell the world about the terror on the faces of my family when a stranger knocked at the door. “Look at our lives!” they said. We live like animals—no food, no car, no telephone, no job—and, most of all, no hope.”

That’s why they wanted this war.

“You can not imagine what it is to live like this for 20, 30 years. We have to keep up our routine lest we would lose our minds.”

But I realized in every household that someone had already lost his or her mind; in other societies such a person would be in a mental hospital. I also realized that there wasn’t a household that did not mourn at least one family member who had become a victim of this police state.

I wept with relatives whose son just screamed all day long. I cried with a relative who had lost his wife. Yet another left home every day for a “job” where he had nothing to do. Still another had lost a son to war and a husband to alcoholism.

As I observed the slow death of a people without hope, Saddam Hussein seemed omnipresent. There were his statues; posters showed him with his hand outstretched or firing his rifle, or wearing an Arab headdress. These images seemed to be on every wall, in the middle of the road, in homes.

“Everything will be all right when the war is over,” people told me. “No matter how bad it is, we will not all die. Twelve years ago, it went almost all the way but failed. We cannot wait anymore. We want the war, and we want it now.”

When I told members of my family that some sort of compromise with Iraq was being worked out at the United Nations, they reacted not with joy but anger: “Only war will get out of our present condition.”

This reminded me of the stories I heard from older Japanese who had welcomed the sight of American B-29 bombers in the skies over their country as a sign that the war was coming to an end. True, these planes brought destruction—but also hope.

I felt terrible about having demonstrated against the war without bothering to ask what the Iraqis wanted. Tears streamed down my face as I lay in my bed in a tiny Baghdad house crowded in with 10 other people of my own flesh and blood, all exhausted, all without hope. I thought, “How dare I claim to speak for people I had not even asked what they wanted?”

Then I began a strange journey to let the world know of the true situation in Iraq, just as my tribe had begged me to. With great risk to myself and those who had told their stories and allowed my camera into their homes, I videotaped their plight.

But would I get that tape out of the country?

To make sure I was not simply getting the feelings of the oppressed Assyrian minority, I spoke to dozens of other people, all terrified. Over and over, they told me: “We would be killed for speaking like this.”

Yet they did speak, though only in private homes or when other Iraqis had assured them that no government minder was watching over me.

I spoke with a former army member, with someone working for the police, with taxi drivers, store owners, mothers and government officials. All had the same message: “Please bring on the war. We may lose our lives, but for our children’s sake, please, please end our misery.”

On my last day in Baghdad, I saw soldiers putting up sandbags. By their body language, these men made it clear that they dared not speak but hated their work; they were unmistakably on the side of the common people.

I wondered how my relatives felt about the United States and Britain. Their feelings were mixed. They have no love for the allies—but they trust them.

“We are not afraid of the American bombing. They will bomb carefully and not purposely target the people,” I was told. “What we are afraid of is Saddam and the Baath Party will do when the war begins.”

The final call for help came at the most unexpected place—the border, where crying members of my family sent me off.

The taxi fares from Baghdad to Amman had risen within one day from $100 to $300, to $500 and then to $1,000 by nightfall.

My driver looked on anxiously as a border guard patted me down. He found my videotapes, and I thought: It’s all over!

For once I experienced what my relatives were going through 365 days a year—sheer terror. Quietly, the officer laid the tapes on a desk, one by one. Then he looked at me—was it with sadness or with anger? Who knows?

He clinically shook his head and without a word handed all the tapes back to me. He didn’t have to say anything. He spoke the only language left to these imprisoned Iraqis—the silent language of human kindness.

“Please take these tapes and show them to the world,” was his silent message. “Please help us...and hurry!”

The Rev. Ken Joseph Jr. directs Assyrianchristians.com and is currently completing the book, I Was Wrong, and speaking about his experience in Iraq.

[David Jamieson]

ds-

when i find the time...;)

in the meanwhile, here are some interesting reads

http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2003/03/30/fObserver194.raw.html

and just for general interest and a different p.o.v

http://english.aljazeera.net

not sure if you folks in the states will actually be able to access the second site what with all the "info warriors" you have there.

cheers

[dezhen2001]

BatesMotel: hey :) i am not arguing about 9/11 - many muslims were in there too when the planes hit yet no one seems to remember that. I also feel very sad that there are 2 holes there now. It truly is a terrible thing

i feel sadder that a brother at my mosque had his whole VILLAGE wiped out in afghanistan leaving only him (middle aged) and his father (who is old man) from their family, as well as only a few other survivors. I have seen them praying for over 1 HOUR reciting verses of Quran and ALL the names of the people in the village who died. "collateral damage" huh? :(

Unfortunately the language barrier makes it hard to find out any more, but those are the few things i could pick up.

Also regarding that "terrorist" camp... wasnt it containing many shiite and kurdish people? How are they linked to Al-Qaida - they are not Wahabbi?

dawood

[dezhen2001]

paulH: i know whats going on in iraq - i have spoken to many refugees here who are iraq and kurdish.

But what you have to realise is that the evil you know is INFINITELY better than the evil you dont know - at least in their eyes. Also the fact that after the Gulf they were just left to be massacred in Iraq by you guys - its gonna take a lot to get over that.

Also remember they see what is going on in palestine and S. Lebanon by the israelis and the "peace process" as well which influences their thoughts on the usa.

dawood

[PaulH]

Dawood,

We part water here on this point. Nothing is worse than what they have now. I can only listen to what they say, and what I hear so far is they are asking us to help to overthrow Saddam in this war. "Can you hear the people singing?- Les Miserables"

[@PLUGO]

S. Brian Willson, a Vietnam Veteran
December 2002

The United States government has admitted that in 2002 it has placed military forces at one time or another in at least 180 of the world's 210 nations, and articulated its intentions to placeground, air, and marine forces in virtually every land, air and sea space in the world. Thus, it is incumbent upon men and women in the armed forces, or those interested in joining same, to be well trained in international and U.S. Constitutional law, and versed in the history
and customs of local people around the world whom you will be encountering.

From my personal experience as an air force ground officer in Vietnam's Mekong Delta in 1969, and from talking to numerous veterans from various wars over the years, there is a consensus that we were not sufficiently briefed on the laws of war or the cultural circumstances into which we were placed. Because we were located in
and around civilian communities, we were subjected to numerous situations in which we personally aided or participated in prohibited
war crimes (murder or ill-treatment of civilians and prisoners of war, plunder of public or private property, etc.), crimes against
peace (planning, preparation, initiation or waging a war of aggression or conspiracy to do the same), and crimes against humanity (murder or general abuse of civilians carried out in execution of crimes against peace or war crimes).

The above three categories comprise the essence of the Nuremberg Principles. One of the
regretful aspects to living in a relatively isolated culture that takes pride in its "manifest destiny" is that our citizenry often simply cannot readily understand the thoughts, history, and mores of people living in other lands. You will discover this to be a
disadvantage when exposed to other populations.

Furthermore, we were promised that any wounds or illnesses suffered
during our military service would be fully treated and cured if possible. Many U.S. veterans have left the military suffering from a
myriad of serious wounds and debilitating illnesses: thousands of Atomic veterans; an unknown number subjected to chemical and
biological warfare testing with others subjected to CIA mind control experiments; two or three million Vietnam veterans exposed to chemical warfare Agents Orange, Blue and White; and several hundred thousand Gulf War I veterans suffering from what is called Gulf War
syndrome. Although many of these veterans have received adequate medical care, a surprising number to this day have in fact not been
acknowledged or properly cared for.

For example, to date nearly 10,000 Gulf War I veterans have already died. Over 250,000 of the 696,000 U.S. troops in Iraq during Gulf War
I, or 36 percent, have sought medical treatment for disabilities related to their experiences. The VA finally granted 160,000 claims
for "Gulf War Syndrome" as of May 2002, but has refused many other complaints denying their connection to military service. Many ex-soldiers attribute their illnesses to untestedvaccinations
ostensibly given them by the military for prevention of potential sickness, and from exposure to the 320 tons of depleted (half)
uranium (D-U or U-238) utilized in Iraq which emits primarily alpha
radiation that possesse a half-life of 4.5 billion years, while producing a toxic heavy metal dust in the form of uranium oxide that
is wind- and water-carried in the air and soil. A British Parliament report using alleged U.S. data suggests that the U.S. is prepared to
use 1,500 tons of D-U in Iraq in Gulf War II. Medical reports from southern Iraq since Gulf War I suggest that the staggering rise in cancers, leukemia among children, and birth defects, among other illnesses, is caused by exposure to D-U. This does not bode well for any persons exposed to D-U. Because of its indiscriminate, continuing
lethal effects on non-combatants (as well as ex-combatants), i.e., a weapon of mass destruction, the U.N Human Rights Commission and a number of scientists and lawyers have identified it as a prohibited weapon in defiance of international law.

A blow was dealt to veterans on November 19, 2002, when a federal appeals court ruled that the government does not owe free lifetime medical care to a number of World War II and Korean War veterans despite promises made by recruiters. And earlier in 2002 U. S.

Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Anthony J. Principi, ordered VA medical facilities to discontinue active marketing of health-care
enrollment to the veterans population due to lack of adequate Congressional appropriations. That the government expects plenty of casualties in the impending war in Iraq and perhaps elsewhere is highlighted by the fact that it recently placed a massive order for all available refrigerated containers for shipping bodies of dead soldiers home from the Middle East.

In hindsight, many veterans wish they had been offered a more informed perspective on the military and war than that provided by
military recruiters prior to making such an important decision as to whether to "serve" in the military or not. Over the years veterans
have discovered that many recruiters never experienced the harsh realities of war and combat. If this remains the case, many veterans
believe they are not sufficiently experienced to offer an authentic perspective.

All members of the U.S. armed forces must abide by the provisions of U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10 (1956), The Law of Land Warfare, especially note paragraphs 498-511. Your training should include study of this manual. The crux of these provisions is that military personnel are bound to obey only lawful orders as the manual sets
forth, abiding by what the government considers international rules on the law of war. The provisions have incorporated the Hague
Convention (1907), relating to treatment of captured combatants and conduct in captured cities/villages and undefended locations, the
Geneva Conventions (1929, 1949), relating to protection of civilians, treatment of prisoners and the sick and wounded, and the Nuremberg
Principles (1946, 1950), mentioned above.

In Vietnam, practically every order in the field directed to ground or air forces in the area of my tour of duty involved destroying
civilian targets or murdering and maiming civilian personnel. Though most of us were not brought to account for these crimes because of
the general impunity we "enjoyed" from our superiors who were also extraordinarily liable, it has not escaped our consciences or
psyches. Perhaps a million or more Vietnam veterans suffer from symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) that continue to
plague us to this day, more than 30 years after our traumatic experiences. Furthermore, committing this kind of prohibited behavior
greatly contributes to a growing worldwide rage directed against the United States that likely will explode in the future. In the broader
context, it would be extremely helpful to explore the motivations behind the 9/11 tragedy, especially in relation to people's feelings
about how they experience the effects of past U.S. policies.

Superior orders are no excuse for violating the laws of war, though they may be considered in mitigation of punishment. Each soldier must
know what is or is not a war crime, a crime against peace, or a crime against humanity. Killing of civilians is explicitly prohibited, and you will likely face civilians, some of whom may be armed, as they struggle to defend themselves and their homes as innocent parties in
international disputes. You will be obligated to disobey orders if directed to fire any weapon toward civilians or civilian targets, including communities and their normal infrastructure facilities. You are also prohibited from mistreating any civilians or their property.
You must disobey any order if you believe that order violates the laws of war. This is an extremely important responsibility, the
successful performance of which will build tremendous personal character and assure honorable soldiering.

Sincerely,

S. Brian Willson, former Captain, USAF, Vietnam, 1969 J.D., LL.D.(Hon.)

[dezhen2001]

kinda reminds me of star trek "first contact" - what is the main directive there? Not to involve yourself with other cultures or else you contaminate and influence their development.

that last post of yours rings true on many points as far a si understand DS.

dawood

[@PLUGO]

well the guy WAs an Air Force Captian... so I can see the Star Trek relation...:D

[dezhen2001]

LMAO didnt notice that :D

dawood