Multiple punches, etc.

[Phil Redmond]

Most of us get used to training only against our vertical punches. We need to train agaist the horizontal punch that most fighters use as well. It'd probably be rare to fight against another WC person in the streets....smile. Also, We should train against multiple punches.
Phil

[pvwingchun]

We do.

John

[marcelino31]

In Redmond's kwoon there are many drills to deal with horizontal and multiple punches -- especially those of the boxing variety. It does seem that on the street you are likely to meet a non WC person who is a horizontal puncher.

[Savi]

At our kwoon, we also train against jabs, hooks, high and low. Wrist grabs, bear hugs, grapplers, kickers... All types. From the front, side, and behind also.

I feel that in order to train yourself to do the techniques at a 'realistic' level, non-Wing Chun attacks are great and probably proper for WC defenses and WC attacks.

Good point Sifu Redmond!
-Savi.

[TjD]

me and my kung fu brothers have been known to throw the occasional hook or horizontal punch in chi sau. they just use wing chun mechanics. once you learn biu jee i don't see anything wrong in this.

it makes for good training and spices things up.

[azwingchun]

Yes, we also train against non-Wing Chun. I will many times spar against my students using hook punches, round house type kicks etc. I also tell my students just as you mentioned, chances of fighting a Wing Chun practitioner opposed to a non-Wing Chun practitioner is are very slim. ;)

[Wingman]

Originally posted by azwingchun
Yes, we also train against non-Wing Chun. I will many times spar against my students using hook punches, round house type kicks etc. I also tell my students just as you mentioned, chances of fighting a Wing Chun practitioner opposed to a non-Wing Chun practitioner is are very slim. ;)
It is certainly very helpful to train against non-Wing Chun techniques. My question is: Wouldn't it be better to train against non-Wing Chun pratitioners rather than have WC practioners throw non-WC techniques at us? My point is, boxers can throw a better jab or hook than a WC could. TKD or Muay Thai practitioners can throw a better roundhouse kick than a WC guy could. BJJ guys can grapple better than a WC could.... etc...

[TjD]

Originally posted by Wingman

It is certainly very helpful to train against non-Wing Chun techniques. My question is: Wouldn't it be better to train against non-Wing Chun pratitioners rather than have WC practioners throw non-WC techniques at us? My point is, boxers can throw a better jab or hook than a WC could. TKD or Muay Thai practitioners can throw a better roundhouse kick than a WC guy could. BJJ guys can grapple better than a WC could.... etc...


personally, your totally correct. whats the point of training against a ****ty jab or hook? you'll learn how to defend yourself against the worse of what's out there.

that being said, a firm, VERY firm, foundation in wing chun is needed for a practitioner to go out there and use their skills against different styles. if you dont have a basic understanding of the footwork, the hands and the body structure of wing chun; doing sparring like that will just bring you ****her from the goal that wing chun points towards. getting a basic understanding of the footwork, structure and hands is not an easy thing to accomplish

[azwingchun]

It is certainly very helpful to train against non-Wing Chun techniques. My question is: Wouldn't it be better to train against non-Wing Chun pratitioners rather than have WC practioners throw non-WC techniques at us?

You are correct. Many of my students as well as myself come from various backgrounds, so when doing this type of sparring or training we are not pretending to be a boxer or karate type attacker. We will actually be using boxing (or whatever style) against Wing Chun. ;)

[KenWingJitsu]

Wingman is very correct, but alas it will fall on deaf ears. Too many people fear being 'beaten up' lol.

[Guile]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Wingman is very correct, but alas it will fall on deaf ears. Too many people fear being 'beaten up' lol.

but dont people train to not get beat? :D
Just use gear. (still hurts)

[azwingchun]

I hope so.........that's what learnng how to fight is. LOL! But, we use very little gear if any, to be honest. With exception to maybe head gear (similar to boxing), when going all out. ;)

[45degree fist]

In my kwoon many people also come from various fighting backgrounds. Boxing, Grappling, TKD etc...
These students share there experience and views with the class.
When doing a defensive exercise say against a grappler the person being the attacker is shown what a Grappler will be focused on and what weaknesses they look for.

This Helps me out tremendously because When I get into their minds it helps me set up my attack, based on their body language.

[foolinthedeck]

whats a horizontal punch?
surely all punches have arcs or parabolas of some sort. a straight punch wing chun style doesnt come directly out of your chest, it 'forms' from something else.
so whats a horizontal punch?

do you mean an 'uppercut' or is this too vague a term too.

[anerlich]

I believe refers to a punch that lands with the fist held horizontally rather than vertically, e.g. the karate reverse punch or boxing cross. Note that some karate styles (like Isshyn-Ryu (sp)) and some boxers (Dempsey) also use the vertical fist.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Wingman

It is certainly very helpful to train against non-Wing Chun techniques. My question is: Wouldn't it be better to train against non-Wing Chun pratitioners rather than have WC practioners throw non-WC techniques at us? My point is, boxers can throw a better jab or hook than a WC could. TKD or Muay Thai practitioners can throw a better roundhouse kick than a WC guy could. BJJ guys can grapple better than a WC could.... etc...

Good post. That especially pertains to grappling. Many people train against a double leg, for example, and haven't the slightest idea how to do one. They end up looking like they are doing a sloppy tackle. The same can be said of the thai roundhouse.

[yuanfen]

For a person not trained in an art to act asa practitioner
for partner training purposes creates a false reality. IMO.

And there are problems in prejudging what anyone will do.

I think good wing chun training avoids those errors in real skirmishes.

[45degree fist]

Originally posted by yuanfen
For a person not trained in an art to act asa practitioner
for partner training purposes creates a false reality. IMO.

And there are problems in prejudging what anyone will do.

I think good wing chun training avoids those errors in real skirmishes.


It is a well known fact that proffesional boxers that are training for a title fight will hire a sparring partner that will mimmic their opponents style of fighting. fighters have even gone to the extent of recruiting from the other fighters team of trainers.

This helps them recognize their own strengths and weeknesses as well as their oppnonents so that they may work at them.

The carbon copy may not have the same power or speed as the original but he will be able to give situational rehearsal.

Also I dont think it is prejudging a persons move more like reading their body language.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Many people train against a double leg, for example, and haven't the slightest idea how to do one. .......The same can be said of the thai roundhouse. Yes, I concur. It applies equally to other attacks as well. I once saw a senior student in another school demonstrate a counter to a roundhouse kick. Quite frankly, if the kick had any power to it, this guy would have had a mouth full of shin for his troubles. I hope he has full-dental coverage. ;)

Matrix

[desertwingchun2]

This is always a good topic to discuss. The benefits of having and training with sihingdai from various martial art backgrounds are numerous. Playing WC against different styles at different energy levels is a great way to test your reality at any level in your training.

Phil and/or KWJ, what are your experiences in playing with guys with formal training and those who just came up fighting?

-David

[Phil Redmond]

I don't have the NHB? experience that KWJ has. I did kick box though. Personally I find that trained MA's are more predictible than those that came up fighting.
Phil

[desertwingchun2]

Thanks Phil ... Interesting when you think about it, huh? When talking WC terms with my friends I often explain that in the day I used to bridge with my face. :D

That probably was unpredictable to the guy I was fighting. LOL ...

-David

[45degree fist]

is getting a wedgie a justifyable bridge( lol):D

I also notice that people from a hard knock life can ironically take a hard knock and keep pressing forward. were as those who have never really got down, get hit or get pressured with a wild flurry of punches, kicks, elbows etc...basic street fighting stratagie
they seem to fall apart or get gun shy and fall for every faint.

good point phil and david

[yuanfen]

45 degree fist- yes some but not all boxers get sparring partners
who can mimic their opponents. But they get boxers- not wannabe boxers. Also for a south paw they geta genuine leftie- nota wannabe. Some dont go for the mimic-ing like the south african wgo knocked out Vladimir Klicthko. he didnt geta Klitchko double. Buta tough guy who put pressure on him. Same kind of guy that had given Klitchko trouble before.
Ali also didnt look for mimics. Larry Holmes was one of his sparring partners- moveda lot like Ali- jab and move.Ali wanted to make sure that his footwork was ok.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by 45degree fist

It is a well known fact that proffesional boxers that are training for a title fight will hire a sparring partner that will mimmic their opponents style of fighting. fighters have even gone to the extent of recruiting from the other fighters team of trainers.

Statistically, this strategy only works about half the time. :p

[45degree fist]

If the boxers got themselves a mimic of the original, they essentially got a wannabe. of course he is another professional boxer and yes he does turn up the heat to keep the contender on his toes. but he is far from being at the level of the actual upcoming opponent if he was he would be up for the belt himeself not just on a sparring team.

This is leading back to the point at hand I am not so ignorant to believe that somone without previous fighting experience could give the same threat as a real fighter. I am simply pointing out they can be an effective training tool and beyond that it is up to you whether or not you train proper mechanics of motion.

and grendel if a stratagie in a sport works half the time it is a great strategy there are very few that do. I know street fighting is a whole different realm, most times you have no clue as to your opponents background. but if you trained a reaction to a stimuli and it is the superior counter then just trust in your abilities.

on a final note
not everyone you train with in your kwoon is a realistic Wing Chun fighting threat but they do help your training tremendously.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by 45degree fist

and grendel if a stratagie in a sport works half the time it is a great strategy there are very few that do. I know street fighting is a whole different realm, most times you have no clue as to your opponents background. but if you trained a reaction to a stimuli and it is the superior counter then just trust in your abilities.

What I meant was that this strategy only works for one half the boxers in a given match except on those occasions when the match ends in a draw. :D

OTOH, it might be true that if a tactic works half the time, it's worthwhile, especially if, with training, you can increase the success to nearer 100%.

If a strategy works only half the time, get a new strategy. :p

Actually, in boxing training, several good strategies have been suggested, case in point Yuanfen's observations.

I believe that it would also be true in Wing Chun that one could benefit by training against/with outside arts. However, this latter strategy would only benefit the Wing Chun person who can really be said to know and perform Wing Chun at a high level. Otherwise, said person would be better off to practice only Wing Chun until they have acquired the necessary skills for a meaningful encounter with other arts, lest the Wing Chun skills never develop properly.

[desertwingchun2]

Hi Grendel

If I may here's my two cents on ...

I believe that it would also be true in Wing Chun that one could benefit by training against/with outside arts. However, this latter strategy would only benefit the Wing Chun person who can really be said to know and perform Wing Chun at a high level. Otherwise, said person would be better off to practice only Wing Chun until they have acquired the necessary skills for a meaningful encounter with other arts, lest the Wing Chun skills never develop properly. - Grendel

Plenty folks know, not believe, that "training against/with outside arts" is beneficial to the development of their Wing Chun Skills.

I disagree with your assertion that - "... latter strategy would only benefit the Wing Chun person who can really be said to know and perform Wing Chun at a high level."

Even at a "begginers" (note apostrophies to indicate this is a highly subjective term) level, low energy play allows one to indentify with reality.

Without that knowledge how will they recognize when "they have acquired the necessary skills for a meaningful encounter with other arts"?

If that's more than two cents, I'll make it up somewhere.

-David

[Grendel]

Hi David,

Originally posted by desertwingchun2
Hi Grendel

If I may here's my two cents on ...

I believe that it would also be true in Wing Chun that one could benefit by training against/with outside arts. However, this latter strategy would only benefit the Wing Chun person who can really be said to know and perform Wing Chun at a high level. Otherwise, said person would be better off to practice only Wing Chun until they have acquired the necessary skills for a meaningful encounter with other arts, lest the Wing Chun skills never develop properly. - Grendel

I disagree with your assertion that - "... latter strategy would only benefit the Wing Chun person who can really be said to know and perform Wing Chun at a high level."

I understand your disagreement. One can learn a smattering of martial arts that when coupled with natural ability may give a false confidence in one's abilities in real fighting. Wing Chun is so different, IMO, that mastering it gives one an advantage against other MAs, but until one masters one's own body and internalizes Wing Chun, giving and receiving the different energies inherent in other arts will be misleading to the student. What does repeated training of this sort do for the student except open him up to learning their bad habits? The technique of the other style is irrelevant to the grasp of Wing Chun principles.


Even at a "begginers" (note apostrophies to indicate this is a highly subjective term) level, low energy play allows one to indentify with reality.

Playing with other styles is far from the reality of the street.


Without that knowledge how will they recognize when "they have acquired the necessary skills for a meaningful encounter with other arts"?

If they are firmly on the Wing Chun path, they or their instructors will know when they have inculcated Wing Chun principles into their fighting. Why waste training time playing outside until then?

Regards,

[desertwingchun2]

Hi Grendel - I think we are talking past each other here. In my view training kuen faat has it's place and time in the development of one's skills. Doesn't mean take a new guy and put him against Mike Tyson or anything even close.

From reading your response I see where you are coming from. Our views and angle on the subject differ. For example:

Even at a "begginers" (note apostrophies to indicate this is a highly subjective term) level, low energy play allows one to indentify with reality. DWC2

Playing with other styles is far from the reality of the street. - Grendel

I never made mention of the "reality of the street". I simply said it "allows one to identify with reality". I'm speaking on a different level here. BTW what is the reality of the street? Your block or mine? LOL !!!! :D

Without that knowledge how will they recognize when "they have acquired the necessary skills for a meaningful encounter with other arts"? - DWC2

If they are firmly on the Wing Chun path, they or their instructors will know when they have inculcated Wing Chun principles into their fighting. Why waste training time playing outside until then?- Grendel

Again you are reading words that aren't there. Im talking self-realization and your talking assumptions. In any athletic arena, are practice sessions or scrimmages a waste of time?

Like I said, I think we're talking past each other. Simply put you have your way I have mine. Always good to see where others are coming from.

-David

[KenWingJitsu]

KWJ, what are your experiences in playing with guys with formal training and those who just came up fighting?
Well for me it boils down to the fact that I immerse myself in training and sparring with people of other disciplines. I wrestle wrestlers, and kickbox boxers.
All this helps me learn pros AND cons of each.

Then I take MY game and emphasize the things I want to in a fight situation. I then find I can keep good WC structure more often and more easily, than if I were to only train with WC guys who "mimic" NHB fighters. AN NHB fighters energy is very intense and you have to prepare for that kind of energy by being the recepient of that energy. You have to be willing to eat humble pie first, because you cannot know how to win until you lose.

It's painful to the ego, but it pays off in the end, because when I spar those guys, they ALWAYS ask me "what style is that" or "Are you doing wing chun?".
When you get comfortable, you'll know when and where you can use WC techs, and when and where you can't (which is where your cross training in the other styles can help). Basically, it takes experimentation.

[PaulH]

KWJ,

I found your approach strangely similar to some of my WSL brothers. Are you sure you are not one of us?

Best wishes,
Paul

[TjD]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu

Well for me it boils down to the fact that I immerse myself in training and sparring with people of other disciplines. I wrestle wrestlers, and kickbox boxers.


why not use your wing chun against them?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by TjD

why not use your wing chun against them?
Where's the fun of that? :D That's too easy.

[KenWingJitsu]

PaulH, no. WT/EBMAS lineage. But commone sense goes beyonfd lineages.

"why not use your wing chun against them?" - TJD. Read my post again. I do. Like I said...........in order to get there, you have to be comfortable being the victim of "their" techniques, even learning how to do them as well as defend against them. Then, and ONLY then will you be able to "use your wing chun". Cross-training is the key. You simply cannot impose your strategy against them if you know nothing about what they're doing to you.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
PaulH, no. WT/EBMAS lineage. But commone sense goes beyonfd lineages.

"why not use your wing chun against them?" - TJD. Read my post again. I do. Like I said...........in order to get there, you have to be comfortable being the victim of "their" techniques, even learning how to do them as well as defend against them.

Dang! It used to be so easy to disagree. :D I agree with this approach. It is important to LET the other style show you how effective it can be if you screw up and lose your Wing Chun advantage. Then having learned this lesson, don't screw up. Ever. In other words, always do what is right and never do what is wrong. :D :D :D


Then, and ONLY then will you be able to "use your wing chun".

Here though, I disagree. My Wing Chun works against other arts whether I've practiced against them or not each time I've tried it.


Cross-training is the key. You simply cannot impose your strategy against them if you know nothing about what they're doing to you.

Now you've lost me again. I don't see a need for cross-training. Experience of other arts, yes. Cross-training in other arts, nyet.

Regards,

[PaulH]

Hi KWJ,

For me it is not really about learning how to do their techniques, but rather learning how recover from a bad position that grapplers or other styles put you in. If you are good at WC techniques and blast them out of the sky, this is great. A bonafide fighter however grows mainly from his vast experience or past mistakes to cope with the bad and unexpected situations that he faces. He can change or reverse his bad situation into a winning situation at any moment. This is what I hope to achieve someday.

Best wishes,

[Grendel]

Originally posted by PaulH

For me it is not really about learning how to do their techniques, but rather learning how recover from a bad position that grapplers or other styles put you in. If you are good at WC techniques and blast them out of the sky, this is great. A bonafide fighter however grows mainly from his vast experience or past mistakes to cope with the bad and unexpected situations that he faces. He can change or reverse his bad situation into a winning situation at any moment. This is what I hope to achieve someday.

Hi Paul,

If your Wing Chun is sound, you won't get into a bad position. If you get into a bad position, such as a grappler getting a choke hold on you, say goodnight---you will lose. The other stuff works in its place.

Regards,

[KenWingJitsu]

Hmmmm.
Okay.....while wee're seeing some common ground there is still obviously a point of contension.

"If your Wing Chun is sound, you won't get into a bad position. If you get into a bad position, such as a grappler getting a choke hold on you, say goodnight---you will lose. The other stuff works in its place."

This goes back to what i call realistic training. I dont care how good you are, **** happens. If you are not being put in a position you cannot escape from, you are not training realistically. Period. There is no perfect wing chun. Find better training partners, or have your partners try to **** you up for real. Sometimes you will 'fail' sometimes you won't. It's the nature of fighting. I'm yet to see a boxer never get hit with a punch. I'm yet to see a wrestler who never gets taken down.

As far as cross training PaulH, you can train to 'get out of bad positions' all you want but guess what...this IS cross-training....at least it's PART of cross-training. You're doing what grapplers do against other grapplers when they're "playing defense". Now.... you "should' also learn to do it offensively. Why? because I can guarantee you, and I am speaking from experience, that learning how to do a move AND learning how to defend it will make you MUCH better at defending it than if you ONLY learn the defense from the move. Trust me on this one. I once resisted learning grappling with the same mindset. One day I simply had to learn to grapple because..it was hard to defeat what I did not know. Yes I know some 'defenses' or some 'escapes', but I did not know them inside out, so I'd try them and fail. When I learned to do them WELL, I KNEW WHAT TO PREVENT. Imposing MY will became that much easier.

THE SAME APPLIES NOT JUST TO GRAPPLING BUT TO OTHER STRIKING ARTS AS WELL. TRUST ME...IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO BOX, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DEFEND AGAINST A DECENT BOXER. Or put it this way; If you learn both offense and defense of boxing, you can more easily defend against a boxer than if you simply train to "defend against boxing".

It is after you've done this, that you can go back to you wing chun base (or whatever your preferred 'style') may be.

[PaulH]

Hi Grendel,

I know what you are saying. I don't really train to do wrong or inappropriate techniques and then try to recover from there. The WC system certainly has a very strong and definite logic behind its hand and leg movements. Due to the inherent chaotic and messy elements of a fight, I find myself often out of my trained elements and unable to pull out those favorite WC techniques!With a little finetuning and changes here and there of my position and timing, I find it true that nothing is unstoppable even chokes! (Of course, I also cheat a little bit since I also got a little tutoring from my teacher who is very knowledgable about BJJ.) Victories are more sweet and rewarding when you manage to turn the table against him.

Regards,
Paul

[PaulH]

Hi KWJ,

Similar to my coaches, I share your enthusiasm on cross training with regard to ground fighting. One will certainly have more insights of their modus operandi if he joins his "enemies." But as Rolf eloquently pointed out earlier, the professional commitment is more or less the main deciding factor when it comes to NHB or similar events. For practical fighting purposes, does one really have to know other people's games that much? My motto is to make WC serve my simple purposes. I wish you the best in your endeavours.

Regards,
Paul

[Grendel]

Originally posted by PaulH

I know what you are saying. I don't really train to do wrong or inappropriate techniques and then try to recover from there.

Hi Paul,

Pardon me if I'm preaching to the choir, but I'm basically a Wing Chun evangelist, and I'm writing to the perceived audience here. :)

I wasn't recommending the approach you mention above, but rather advocating experiencing the allowing of the grappler to apply his technique to you so that you can appreciate its effectiveness at that point. In other words, just let them do it, so we can see what it is they intend. At the point where the grappler gets a submission hold, no one should be able to counter if the grappler knows his stuff. However, due to the superiority of Wing Chun principles over grappling, and our efforts to fine tune them, we who do Wing Chun don't need to adopt any of the techniques of the opposition in order to counter them.

Also, I was agreeing with KWJ that experience of other resisting martial artists is beneficial to understanding how it is that Wing Chun delivers the answers. I just wouldn't cross-train. This last is because cross-training IMO will interfere with your Wing Chun training and develop bad habits.


The WC system certainly has a very strong and definite logic behind its hand and leg movements.

I agree. The principles of applied centerline techniques, the horse, and Wing Chun footwork are very effective.


Due to the inherent chaotic and messy elements of a fight, I find myself often out of my trained elements and unable to pull out those favorite WC techniques!With a little finetuning and changes here and there of my position and timing, I find it true that nothing is unstoppable even chokes! (Of course, I also cheat a little bit since I also got a little tutoring from my teacher who is very knowledgable about BJJ.)

Sorry, no cheating! :) You won't get in a position to be choked generally. Wing Chun against the typical foe is like the fourth dimension; they can't comprehend it, yet it works on them. For dealing with grapplers who have studied Wing Chun, our job is to be better at Wing Chun.


Victories are more sweet and rewarding when you manage to turn the table against him.

I can appreciate the sentiment, but my goal is to be so unstoppable that my opponent cannot even find the table. :)

Regards,

[PaulH]

Hi Grendel,

No offense taken! There are plenty of meats and marrows in your thoughtful post.

Regards,
Paul

[azwingchun]

But as Rolf eloquently pointed out earlier, the professional commitment is more or less the main deciding factor when it comes to NHB or similar events. For practical fighting purposes, does one really have to know other people's games that much?

What does everyone else think about this. I see his point, and I am sure someone will disagree.

When speaking about being great Wing Chun pracitioners, are you speaking of an athletic level (such as NHB type fights)? Or are you speaking of the average everyday street fight? I personally (as possibly many here have) have been in several street fights, as well as full contact competition events (years ago). I obviously can see the difference in the two.

Or, do you not see or put a difference on the two?

;)

[Wingman]

Originally posted by azwingchun
When speaking about being great Wing Chun pracitioners, are you speaking of an athletic level (such as NHB type fights)? Or are you speaking of the average everyday street fight? I personally (as possibly many here have) have been in several street fights, as well as full contact competition events (years ago). I obviously can see the difference in the two.

Or, do you not see or put a difference on the two? ;)
In NHB type fights/competition, the 2 fighters square off & face each other. When the referee gives the signal, only then will the 2 fighters engage. There are also rules regarding what the fighters can and cannot do.

In street fights, you may not know when your opponent will attack. You may not even know who your opponent/s is/are. Your opponent may attack with little or no provocation and for no reason at all. In a street fight, your opponent may have the initial advantage of the element of surprise. And of course, there are no rules in a street fight.

Having differentiated between the two, IMHO, NHB type fight/competition can prepare you for street fights. But it is no substitute for the real thing.

[azwingchun]

In NHB type fights/competition, the 2 fighters square off & face each other. When the referee gives the signal, only then will the 2 fighters engage. There are also rules regarding what the fighters can and cannot do.

Very true, though let's not forget the other factor. Such as state of mind. When you go into any sort of competition, you know that the other person isn't out to kill you or you him. I believe this more than anything else plays a huge factor.

You know that at any moment in time you can quit or the fight will be stopped if you or the other gets into trouble. I believe this takes your true street level of combat down several notches. Your not fighting for your life.
;)

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by Grendel

However, due to the superiority of Wing Chun principles over grappling, and our efforts to fine tune them, we who do Wing Chun don't need to adopt any of the techniques of the opposition in order to counter them.

Regards,

have to disagree with the first part there... dangerous generalization IMO

[Rolling_Hand]

Brother Sui,

Where have you been lately?

Watch the fists of WCK,

Your Pak Mei wouldn't save your soul.

hahaha....

Good to see ya!

Roger Rollinghand

[Sui]

brother roll,missing in action.in hk,atipcal pnew is stopping me from flying out.when are you comin over?

pak mei and the balance of soul,gravity is against your chain punching in every centerline punch,hahaha
my guard is down you cheap shot,or is it????:)

good to see you too,keep rolling you might catch me?

sui