Shaolin and Wing Chun informative...

[Savi]

Taken from "Hung Mun and Tai Tzu Kuen" thread.

Originally posted by Phenix
Savi,

Emei 12 zhuang is as old as 700/800 years old.
White Crane from Fujian is being around 1660's.

So what paradigm shift do you belive which surpassed these two system? In addition, the 12 Zhuang has a direct link to Esoteric Buddhism, with its legacy..... I will be really happy to hear your part of hypothesis and evidents.
I am not quite sure what you mean by "surpassed these two system?" or how you came to the conclusion I believed this to be true in the first place. I assure you I make no assumptions about this. I do believe I can share with everyone information which is already published in magazines, and I MUST stress the fact that I am only speaking on my own opinions and experience. Nothing more. I will address the 'paradigm shift' in another post.

To all, if I may share some observations about HFY and Shaolin with the intent on being informative...

Referencing an 'animals' connection from Kung Fu Qigong Sept/Oct 2001 issue as a source.

In HFY lore, Fukien White Crane was one of the several kung fu families to come through the Hung Fa Ting. The others being Southern Mantis, White Eyebrow, Weng/Wing Chun, and Dragon Fist. Thusfar in my studies of Hung Fa Yi combat applications, Mantis and Crane are apparent [to me] in form and application. I am not familiar with White Eyebrow, but alot of the Dragon's principles and concepts closely parallel that of principles and concepts of the WC I am learning. Note, I have studied in the Shaolin arts prior to my Wing Chun training, but not at a scholastic level, merely mechanical and a touch of the philosophic and strategic.

For example, let me use the Dragon Fist to compare with my WC experience to as I have had some MINIMAL training in Dragon kung fu. Both the Dragon style and HFYWC hold true to the tactics of (in my own words):

1) Searching and waiting for/to attack,
2) 'sticking to' and 'deflecting' attacks,
3) 'simultaneous offense and defense',
4) 'chasing the fallen enemy' with continuous footwork.

I am not familiar with the exact Kuen Kuit of the Dragon family. Well, any family aside from my WC family's kuen kuit to be truthful.

There are also numerous techniques that share in appearance similar hand structures and strategy in application to the Mantis and Crane families of kung fu for example. The 'Crane's beak' and the 'Fuk Sau' are utilized in the 'head-to-waist' area of the body and are both linear and circular in motion. Also keep in mind that every motion of HFY is bound to HFY's definition of 'HFY' structure, which is why I made use of the word 'similar' and not 'exact'.

To Jim Roselando: What I find to explain the difference in body structure from 'traditional Shaolin structure' and WC (HFY in particular) is that of HFY's way of defining human structure. *to be further explained in the upcoming HFY book.*

So here I have shared some of my observations which are entirely my own, with regards to techincal and mechanical parallels to particular families of kung fu who have a common lore of historical origin. To me, this lends (however minor, it's an opinion) more supporting facts to the time period of Wing Chun's birth in the 17th century, due to the strengths of the similarity. I understand that these observations do not PROVE anything, so please do not accuse me of trying to do such!

These parallels [mentioned] strengthen my belief that Hung Fa Yi originates from the Southern Shaolin Temple. Due to the fact that many people say a name is just a name what have you, I will not go into the close parallel of "Hung Fa Yi" and "Hung Fa Ting" although it is tremendously important. There is a great history behind it.

I would like to say this should another war here start (god forbid, let's stay civil please!)... on a side note about HFY articles. I have experienced the integrity of the Hung Fa Yi family, and because of the character displayed by them in person, I see that as the first reason NOT to attack their lore. They uphold their name, in particular Yi, as in 'Righteousness'. I have reread the articles published over the past few years on Hung Fa Yi because of the accusations against us. I have not come across one article that has failed to state that what is being presented is based on oral traditions and lore, or qualified with the phrase "according to Hung Fa Yi history." So when I think about it, some people's accusations and false claims against the HFY trying to pass a 'blanket truth' do not hold...

Respectfully,
-Savi.

[Jim Roselando]

Hi Savi!


I never said you are trying to PROVE anything. The one time I mentioned your name was as a good example of what others should do!

I believe I told Rolling Hand to "Learn from Savi"! Alteast he discussed his beliefs!

I actually applaud you for being level headed enough to discuss versus spew nonsense like others do. Too many people chime in and just simply waste time.

The 1-4 principles you laid out are common among south fist arts! Many parallels will be found with this sort of information. I trained the Jook Lum Gee South Mantis for a short period. The skills, kuit, etc. are similar but many other principles go against WC theory of combat.

Perhaps we should just pick one topic and go from there!

How about the first form of most south fist art and most okinawan arts that come from south china. Som Bo Gin (three step arrow) Also known as the 3 battles, vibration form, san chin etc.. How and when do you feel the WC art went on its new way of thinking and discarded to Som Bo Gin to come up with Siu Lin Tao?

Looking forward to an adult discussion!


Regards,

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Jim,
Since I'm sure there are several people who are not familiar with the San Bo Gin, would you mind giving an explanation of it? As you've actually studied it, that might be extremly helpful to this discussion. Just a suggestion....

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Som Bo Gin is the mother form of the south fist arts. It name has a few meanings hidden behind the basic numerology of the set. Moving forward in life with your Kung Fu etc.. The basics of the set would be fundamental skills, gathering and releasing of power, short power follow up hitting, centerline and bi-lateral striking, different breathing methods for the set (natural and holding), dip gwat kung swallow spit, stretching and contracting, turn around footwork, left and right covering and a finishing salutation refered to as Shung Har Jung (high,low,middle) which makes reference to Heaven Earth and Man.

The set is quite amazing. Very powerful and effective Kung Fu. You can see different versions (off-shoots) even in some Okinawan arts with their San Chin. The crane vibration set. etc.

Watching it looks just like most south fist. Open up, walk forward with three advances, cover and turn left/right and back the other way.

Brilliant Kung Fu! The problem is that some of the Mantis contradicts the WC so I stopped doing it. Also, (the main reason) one art was more than enough. Two arts will confuse the hand and cause Chop Suey since they are too similar in many ways!


Regards,

[Savi]

Hey Jim! I was hoping you would catch on to this thread. I know what your intentions were about using me as an example too. The 'Prove' thing issue, was not directed towards you at all. We're cool yo. That was more in reference to others who have a history of attacking me, so I had to disclose my understanding to those people.

I will discuss some more things with my sihingdai regarding Saam Jin Bo tonight, I'm familiar with 'this' particular term. I'm not exactly sure it is quite the same thing you are referencing. Based on your description, it doesn't sound like it is.

Talk to you later tonight or tomorrow.
-Savi.

[Savi]

Hey Jim,
Sorry I forgot to ask, could you share one or two idioms of Mantis that are and one or two more that aren't consistent with the WC you know? I'm very curious about it.

Again, we'll talk laterz. Thanks in advance.
-Savi.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi
Taken from "Hung Mun and Tai Tzu Kuen" thread.

In HFY lore, Fukien White Crane was one of the several kung fu families to blossom from the Hung Fa Ting.



Hi Savi,

Here I have a picture for you from my Hung Mun book.

In this picture it is said "

Hung Mun (Tien Tee Hui) source from Fujian's Sao An Chang Lin Temple. That was the time of Qing emperor Kang Xi year of 13th (1674). Monk Dao Chong is the host united and found the Tien Tee Hui or so called Hung Mun's " HUng FA Ting united. This is a picture of Dao Chong.

See, people have found where is the source of Tien Tee Hui or Hung Fa Ting.


And, if you look at the white crane from Fujian. it was founded at between 1644 and 1662. by Fang Chi-Niang at fujian Fu Ning. At 1683, Bai Cieh of Taiwan bring the inch jing method of Fujien White crane back to China.


So, the question is how Fukien White Crane was to blossom from the Hung Fa Ting? Since THe Hung Mun was found in 1674 which is later then 1644 - 1662? And White Crane of Fujan is founded by Fang Chi-Niang.


What is the paradigm shift of martial art in the Chang Lin temple (Long forest temple) of Sao An ?

By the way, my home town in Fujian from my dad side is happen to be Sao An. And in Sao An no one practice Siu Lin Tau. Beside me when I went back for visit :D


Sandman2,

how come my picture didn't go through?
it is just 102k

[yylee]

Hendrik

>>how come my picture didn't go through?
>>it is just 102k

try converting the file into a gif, it may shrink the size a bit.

Or send me the picture and see what I can do.

[Phenix]

Savi,

Here is another sample of record on where and which branch of Hung Mun in China since 1700's.

We have lots and lots of data these days....

[Phenix]

Here it comes the picture for Savi.

My neighbour in Sao An Fujian . I don't even dream Hong Fa Ting is at my home town.

:D

Thanks to YLee

[yylee]

got to go to this one with my son :)

http://www.mgm.com/bulletproofmonk/

if you truely believe........LOL!

it is like Matrix, Suk San and Chow's classic action movies all in one.

[Phenix]

YY,

They should make one with emei 12 zhuang and SLT...

as you know the switch focus to mai...
the heat traveling....
the transform in to light and broken ligth. into emptiness....
beyond physical...
the 9 states of achivements....
then the emptiness of beyond space and time... get back to Ommm... the illuminating and cristal like rainbow body

good scifi....

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Savi,


Ok! My misunderstanding! (Cool Yo) :-) hehehe


Some Mantis maxims! Ok

Hand to hand, hear to heart, you dont come, I wont start, you attack and I will hit first and continuous until you are red or down.

How about this! I will attach a link for you and a write up for you! The write up is quite long so I had to make it into two posts! "Enjoy" This is my old Mantis sifu and friend. He is truly amazing and his martial skill is second to none.

http://www.bambootemple.com/txtidx.htm



Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

About Southern Praying Mantis

This style is connected by similarity with the Fukien Crane, Wing Chun, Dragon Shadow, and White Eyebrow styles (as well as the Okinawan Karate styles). Its technique is based on a deep rooted firm upright stance, straight forward explosive force (of a sticky nature) and the use of turning or borrowing power with small deflective angles, circles and hooks.

Practitioners emulate the mantis fighting posture by extending their hands forward, with the elbows slightly bent and tucked in close to protect the centerline - like a mantis. The feet are separated by the distance of about 18-24 inches, shoulder width apart, with the bent lead leg supporting most of the weight, while the slightly curved leg acts as a strut.

A single movement of the arm may contain several actions. Tactical operations of the hand include grappling, catching, holding, capturing, clasping with the forearms, slicing strikes with the knuckles, pressing with the elbow, sudden quick pushes with both hands, spearing with extended fingers, flicking of the hands in quick jabs, exploding fingers from the fists, jerking the opponent’s arm, slicing and chopping with the edge of the palm, hooking and deflecting hands, elbow strikes, claw-like raking actions, and poking with the back of the hands. Many of the movements are simultaneously defensive and offensive. The feet, ankles, knees and hips may mirror the hand movements.

In my teaching, the principle of intent or "will-power" is first discussed. Intent may simply be defined as the "warrior spirit." Without it, their is no focus of the body and mind into one purpose. Rooting and centering are next discussed. Rooting is the skill of developing the force of one thousand pounds in the feet. With it, the stance is as firm as Mt. Tai and not easily moved. Without it, the power of the fist will be stagnated in the chest and one's feet will not be steady. Centering is the development of the root. It is the lowering of the center of gravity within the body. It is accomplished by breathing and correct body structure.

Body structure is a key element. Like a triangle, one must develop a base in relationship with the other parts. In the body it is a sinking power. If the stance is too wide, too narrow, too long or too short, the center will be unstable. Imagine an upside down triangle standing on it's tip and you can see the slightest force will cause it to topple. This is a floating center and should be avoided.

Many styles mimic the movements of animals, but the Jook Lum Mantis is based on the structure of the human being. The practicer stands upright with the feet firmly placed heel to toe 18-24 inches apart. Gathered through the feet and up the legs and back, the power is expressed in the hands. This produces a live springy power (action-reaction force in a sticky way). It is produced by the whole body in spiraling motions, as a spring is twisted and then released. It is the function of the hand and foot arriving at the target intently at the same time. There is a saying, "any deficiency of power in the hand, can be found in the root and center."

Being that the structure of this kungfu is based on the natural movements of man and the hand movements of a mantis, the style's form and function express themselves as one. How many times have we seen dozens of different stylists, all practicing their various forms, only to enter the fighting competition and become indistinguishable from each other? That is to say, that their form and function is not the same. Jook Lum Mantis is one style that exhibits form and function inseparably.

Once found, one must learn to move the center while remaining stable in all positions. This is the function of stepping and is based on the body structure and the use of power in attack and defense with the feet, shins, knees and hips. Jook Lum has both linear and circular stepping such as three steps forward, four corners and eight directions.

Once a rooted stance is developed and one is able to move the center of his body by stepping forcefully and agressively without a break in the root, he may learn to "box" using the hand. When the stance is rooted and one can move the center, it is said the whole body has become a hand.

The mantis arm is composed of three "hands;" from the shoulder to the elbow, from the elbow to the wrist and from the wrist to the fingertips. A good mantis will use his "second hand" for control by pressing the forearm into the centerline of his prey, at the same time striking a vital area with his "first" hand or fingers.

In my teaching, I first introduce 18 hands individually, one by one, combined with the steps. One learns this as a single man exercise but quickly begins two man, "partners," practice in offense and defense. This is "attaching to the center of the opponent and controlling him." These 18 hands can be likened to the alphabet. A follows B turns to C, etc. Once the alphabet is learned, we can make words, which make sentences, which make paragraphs and books and so on. At last, the practicers arrive at 18 continuous hand combinations.

By daily training and repitition, of these hands offensively and defensively in high, low, middle, left, right, center and back positions, the mind and body will gradually come to an instinctual action or reaction based on the "partners" intent. It is too late if one must think in combat. Ancillary exercises during the basic training are numerous. Of course, standard exercises include kicking, sweeping, chinna, grappling, ground fighting and the likes, but more specific Jook Lum exercises such as two man internal strengthening, two man body conditioning, sticky elbows, hooking hands and ging power explosive force are also included. And there are numerous two man "sticky-feeling-controlling" exercises.

Sticky training is to learn relaxation. It is the ability to not blink when being struck. It is attaching to the center of the opponent's being, neither pushing into nor pulling away from him. It is being perfectly attacthed in stillness and motion. Feeling hand is the result of sticky hand. One must learn to neither anticipate the opponents movement or telegraph his own. Feeling hand is the reading of the opponents intent. It is as if the hand (body) has an eye of it's own. Controlling hand is the result of feeling hand. It is the jamming, trapping and deflecting and attacking of the opponents intent. This is done based on the control points of the body. The motto, is "hand to hand, heart to heart, you don't come, I won't start." (The hands are placed (chambered) above the heart and the elbows cover the ribcage to protect the internal organs).

Once the basics are learned, next is taught the form Lah Sao (or loose hands). It is a short, medium and long range two man (A-B) hand set with low kicks, high kicks and sweeping. Although the form is based on stickiness, there are three separations of the two men. Both sides (A-B) must be learned by both men as one continuous "round" to complete the form. Next is the basic form, "three steps forward." It strengthens the structure and teaches gathering, exploding and borrowing power. It is followed by the two man "three steps forward" form. It is the application of all the principles and philosophy in a realistic way.

This is followed by the "five fist" form. It is four directional and includes the evasion of takedowns and sweeping. Next is the two man "five fist" set where the skills are further refined. Moi Fa, follows and is a circular two man set teaching one to attack vital points below the navel. This in turn is followed by the 18 Buddha Form as a single man set and then a two man set. This set teaches vital point striking with the knuckles and fingertips in forward, left and right positions. Now a two man set, "seven point fist" is taught to advanced practitioners who will not "graduate" the system. Those who will must be formally accepted by the master to receive the "masters form" called 108. It is a sticky hand two man set teaching one hundred eight vital point striking, defending and countering. I call it acupuncture boxing. Herbals and Shun Kung (spirit) teaching follow. Traditionally, the Late Lum Sang Sifu only taught, the forms three steps forward, 18 point, seven point fist and 108 with their two man sets.

[Jim Roselando]

Mantis Form and Function
In most teachings, forms are broken down into a sequence of 1,2, or 3 techniques (movements) and explained as combat application. The problem with this is that the demonstration is usually static, this is, one person is asked to punch (attack) and hold out his hand while the other applies a sequence of 1,2,3 actions in defense and offense. This is unrealistic. In a real fight the attacker will never punch only once and stop - waiting for your reaction. Neither will he remain static waiting for you to attack him (or his weak spots). Action causes reaction - this is a basic law of nature (and survival).

When one person defends and/or attacks the other will instinctually move to avoid being hit - in example, clap your hands in a wilderness area and watch as the fowl and animals instinctually move - or like one automatically blinks when being poked toward the eyes.

Martial arts applications cannot be realistic if they are static. Application must be dynamic; cause and effect, action and reaction, especially against skilled martial art. It is possible that a skilled martial artist defending against an unskilled person MIGHT find himself in a situation where his 1,2,3 movement can be applied, but, even an unskilled person will turn his head when being struck in the face or turn his body when being struck in the chest.

Therefore, superior martial art must first be guided by relentless intent - eye to eye, hand to hand, driving forward into the center of the opponents being. Second, a superior skill must have segmented feeling power which can produce whole body force, that is, any part of the body can yield independently to the opponents incoming force creating an unstable center and opening and then discharge a focused single deadly strike with power issuing from the feet, up the legs, back, arms, and fingers into a weak vital point of the opponent such as the eyes, throat, or solar plexus. Third, a skillful art must be based on changes of the hand, since the hand (arm) is the quickest and most convenient weapon (just watch any real fight).

By pressing the centerline of the opponent, sticking to his movement and feeling his intent, the skillful hand can, using small, quick, short, angular jerks and deflections, redirect and create an opening in the opponents center and intent while delivering a single devasting blow in a straight line (the shortest quickest distance between two points) to his vital spots. Continuous direct blows are given until the opponents submission. The mantis philosophy is train until within three blows the opponent submits, bleeds or ceases to exist.

But this is based on the ability of the practicer to intently stick, feel, yield and discharge continuous changes based on the opponent's action and reaction. Simply said, if pushed downward the hand turns to strike upward, if pushed upward the hand turns to strike downward, if pushed inward the hand turns to strike outward, if pushed out the hand turns (changes) to strike inward (simply said). Of course, this is a principle and as one becomes skillful, his hand learns to adapt to any angle or circumstance. Like the stance, one first finds the center, develops power, moves the center and attaches the center to his opponent. Later, any position or posture is centered, whether lying, sitting, standing or walking.

The eighteen mantis hands all change in this way without a break in the power and contact of the two people. A is followed by B, by C turns to D and so on. In time, two people learn to change hands (power) automatically. By repitition A instinctually turns to B turns to C, etc. At this point, one may simply hold out his hands and they will move and strike without thought. When the eighteen mantis hands are practiced by two skillful people, it looks like a continuous "sticky" fight. Once contact is made there is no backing up or breaking apart. Each of the eighteen hands is a reaction to an action with the intent of each movement to make one deadly strike enough. Learning the eighteen hand changes individually is basic training and is followed by a series of two man "sticky, feeling, changing" forms in which the mantis practicers begin to instinctually skill various changes while developing precision in striking vital areas. The forms are "hands on" and realistic in "continuous fighting". Fifteen years ago, Bill Chan, a kungfu brother, and I, were practicing one of these two man sticky hand forms on the North Shore of Lake Michigan in Chicago. To our surprise, many people stopped and thought we were actually fighting!

This principle of contact, control and strike (until the opponent is red) is central to all mantis action is based on the three powers of the arm; from the shoulder to the elbow, elbow to the wrist, wrist to the fingertips. A skillful mantis will defend and attack using one arm (leaving one hand free) to trap and control the opponents two arms. This is done with one arm by using the forearm for defensive movement while simultaneously attacking with the hand or fingers. This can only be accomplished if one has understood the centerline theory.

And so, a superior art is based on a deep rooted stance, upright footwork in stepping and production of power by the movement of the ribs and diaphragm. It will use the conditioned arms and hands 70% of the time and the legs and feet 30% of the time in offense and defense. Again this is because, the hands are the quickest and most convenient weapon (as we can see in any real fight).

LIK AND GING
Lik (li) is the natural strength a man's body possesses. It is his physical constitution and it varies from person to person. Sometimes a smaller person is naturally stronger than a larger person and sometimes the larger person is not naturally strong. In the case of one's Lik (natural strength) size is not always an indicator.

Ging (jing) is based on the Lik (natural strength) of person but it is not natural. It is a refined strength, a strength that is acquired after special training.

Think of the body builder. He has both lik and ging. His natural strength (lik) is due to his body size and his refined strength (ging) is developed in the movement of lifting weights. Therefore, his ging is useful in moving weights, but not in other actions. This is why different people with different daily lives have different lik and ging. The person who digs ditches with a shovel will develop a refined power (ging) that allows him the greatest ease and comfort at shovelling. And so it is that in martial art we develop ging or refined power after special training. And we can see that the better our (lik) natural strength the greater our refined strength will also be. Today, we can hear of so many kinds of ging, particularly in Tai Chi or the so called "internal arts" that it may sound confusing. (And in many cases, I do believe the practicers are confused).
Simply stated, each skill or technique when mastered becomes a ging.

In mantis, the term, ging, is used as an overall word indicating refined strength and each technique or special skill is simply called a "hand". However, each of the 18 mantis basic hands could be called a ging, ie. mor ging, gwak ging, choc ging, sigh ging, etc, because after repeated training one will acquire extraordinary power in this particular motion.

If one's ging cannot be easily changed according to the opponents reaction power and intent, then it is called "dead power". We see this in many Karate movements where force is met with greater force. It is "dead ging" because once exerted it cannot change or re-issue power until it has been regenerated usually by chambering or pulling back the hand as in the reverse punch. In contrast, "live power or ging" strikes, sticks, follows and regenerates power by using the opponents movement. The power is continuous and flowing without the need for pulling back the hand or recoiling the arm. One blow changes to another blow without ever breaking contact and always following the opponents movement. This, however, is a function of correct technique.

It is said that ging is produced in the feet and expressed outward toward the limbs. This is the function of the stance and footwork. If not exactly correctly, one may never develop a root and center and so the hands will never develop sufficient ging.

There are many other principles such as the centerline theory; intercepting hand and sticky hand; rooting, moving the center, attaching the center; crossing the bridge; straight power and borrowing force; float, sink, swallow and spit; which I may address in the future.

ANECDOTE
In the book, Complete Guide to Kungfu Fighting Styles, it is clear that the author, J. Hallander, had little or no experience with Southern Praying Mantis. Many erroneous statements are made about South Mantis including the basic history. Unfortunately, misinformation is abundant regarding this style, even on the internet today!

[Savi]

Hendrik, I misread the article. So I am posting a section of the article here which states that Fukein White Crane came from same 'province' and time period, not the same hall. My fault. Several other popular combat systems trace their roots to this same province during the same period in history... quote from below.

Jim, Thank you for all that info! I have MUCH to read on the info you posted on the Praying Mantis!!! What I have gathered thusfar is that the Mantis you learned seems to have been highly influenced by the paradigm shift Desertwingchun2 and I speak of! It will be addressed either in this post or the following post. I am looking for a possible VTM article that might address the some of the science behind it. This post is primarily for Hendrik, but will be followed by another post addressing your question I have yet to answer...

-----------------------------------
This is a section of an article written by my Sigung and Sifu...
http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/realwingchun.htm

..... This quest for truth resulted in strong evidence that Wing Chun began in the Southern Shaolin Temple (nàahm síu làhm jih) in the latter half of the 17th century. At this point in history, the Southern Shaolin Temple in Fukien Province (fük gin) was a hot bed for martial arts training. Several other popular combat systems trace their roots to this same province during the same period in history. This include Southern Mantis (jyù gà tòhng lòhng), White Eyebrow (baahk mèih), Dragon Fist (lùhng kyùhn), Fukien White Crane (fük gin baahk hohk), and Five Ancestor’s Boxing (ñgh jóu kyùhn).

So Hendrik, the above paragraph is where my source of information came from regarding the kung fu families mentioned.

Da Jung, whom you've cited, is also noted as another key figure (according to Hung Fa Yi Lineage) as well:
http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/myths.htm

".... The second principle figure in the monk's revolutionary activities used the alias "Da Jung." His real name remains unknown, but his past and origins are not so hidden. Prior to his arrival at the Southern Shaolin Temple, he was a Ming military officer from the northern provinces. He fled south when the Ming Dynasty fell and sought shelter in the Southern Temple. He is truly important to the history of the Southern Temple because, prior to his arrival, kung fu was not of primary interest there. He is what Chinese martial arts traditionalists would call a "Joi Si," or "First Leader," because he is believed to be the first person to give his extensive knowledge of Chinese Kung Fu to the Southern Shaolin Temple.

In the process of teaching his martial arts at the Temple, he formed a secret society known as the "Buddhist Hung Moon." The society's express purpose was the overthrow of the Ching Dynasty. It was this organization that was used to link Northern and Southern Shaolin revolutionary activities together. Secret sub-societies were formed to carry out the intent of the Buddhist Hung Moon, the most significant being the "Hung Fa Wui" (Red Flower Society) and another counterpart organization on the island of Formosa, called Tien Dei Wui (Heaven and Earth Society). The Formosa based society was established by one of the last surviving Ming general officers, Cheng Sing Kung."

Thanks for bring that to my attention. It did clarify things for me!
-Savi.

[reneritchie]

I still wonder if these various systems mentioned, rather than being "Southern Shaolin", are offshoots of Hakka boxing. The allegorical legends of "Southern Shaolin" are oddly close to the actual history of the Hakka (the Hakka were used by the Qing to fight the (Hokkien?) in Fujian, but were later driven out, and migrated down into Guangdong and Guangxi. Just as they used the term "Southern Mantis" to hide their Hakka boxing, it doesn't seem to much of a stretch they used "Southern Shaolin" either, especially when you consider, as Jim mentioned, that the core set of Hakka fist like Juk Lam Tong Long is close to what is considered the core set of "Southern Shaolin".

It's also interesting that Wing Chun, White Crane, and even some Southern Mantis and other systems share incredibly similar creation myths, both involving the "5 Elders", and the architypal story of a girl (Yim Wing Chun, Fong Wing Chun, Fong Chut Leung, etc.) learning from her father, changing the art to better suit herself, teaching her husband (Leung Bok-Cho, Hung Hey-Goon, Zhen Chen, etc.) who then taught the art to the masses.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi


[i] ".... The second principle figure in the monk's revolutionary activities used the alias "Da Jung." His real name remains unknown, but his past and origins are not so hidden. Prior to his arrival at the Southern Shaolin Temple, he was a Ming military officer from the northern provinces. He fled south when the Ming Dynasty fell and sought shelter in the Southern Temple. He is truly important to the history of the Southern Temple because, prior to his arrival, kung fu was not of primary interest there. He is what Chinese martial arts traditionalists would call a "Joi Si," or "First Leader," because he is believed to be the first person to give his extensive knowledge of Chinese Kung Fu to the Southern Shaolin Temple.




Hi Savi,

Dao jong last name is Cheong or Zhang. He was a native of Sao An. Not from the northern province....

He is not a Ming official. He join Cheng Sin-Gong after the falling of Ming with his other "brother from brotherhood" of Sao An Fujian.

As for Chu Hung Cuk.... it is a make up....


As for martial art, no evidents...... His temple is Chang Lin (long forest) then move to Fong San (pheonix mountain)....


Here is a picture of copy of writing in the tomb of Dao Jong.




As for the relationship of White Crane from Fujian with WCK. now one has to explain..... As I said, the center line theory is from White Crane. so where is the paradigm shift? White Crane is preceed Hung Fa Ting....

Savi,

well Yan Kok Yau Chee. everyone has one's free will. One can belive what one wants to belive.

But, evidents are evidents

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Savi and Rene,


RR,


You must have just been reading my mind! I do not believe in the animal arts/shaolin so to say. Hence the reason I refer to them as the "so-called shaolin"! I believe most of these arts are Hakka Kuen related. As the Hakka people migrated to the south (aka Nothern Guests) and settled in. Lum Sang was Hakka and the Mantis art was mainly only taught to Hakka in the early years.

Lots to think about.


Savi,


The Hakka arts seem to have had lots of influence in many systems. I belive there was at one time perhaps a more common, or standard similar base boxing, most practiced and then the off-shoots starting coming from them. The one thing that seems to be sure is that Som Bo (san chin) seems to be the root of most of these arts. I would probally say that South Mantis, Whitebrow, Dragon, Fukien Crane etc. may have all been from the Hakka source just different expression of the source. The structure is all too similar and the other elements I mentioned in the Pelvis topic are all too similar. Thats why I believe that WC has a good chance of being a blend of two as the posture, form pattern, form names, etc do not fit with the other more similar Hakka arts. Do you know that the Mantis art is only a few generations old? That would bring its origins only to the early 1800's! If I was a betting man I would probally put my money on Fukien Crane being the main teachin/mother art of most of these arts but you never know?


Regards,

[Phenix]

picture

Here is a picture of copy of writing in the tomb of Dao Jong.

[Savi]

Jim, the following is quite a bit lengthy, but is quite short in comparison to the whole article! I have posted here only the 1st stage (1 of 3 according to the article) of Wing Chun history according to VTM research, where in the article it also addresses the paradigm shift…http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/realwingchun.htm

Ving Tsun Museum research to-date supports a hypothesis that Wing Chun history unfolded in three principle stages: Concept Design / Field Testing, Modification / Public Awareness, and Commercialization…..

The Concept Design and Field Testing stage began at the Southern Shaolin Temple in 1670 A.D. during a time of war and revolution in Southern China. A martial art oriented to modular training of hand-to-hand combat troops was required. Highly trained tacticians and teachers needed a single system that could be called upon to address the numerous threats of the myriad of fighting styles employed throughout China. A cutting-edge combat system was needed. The challenge to create such a system was picked up by the warrior monks of the Southern Temple and fugitive General Officers of the remnant Ming Dynasty (mìhng chìuh) army. The Weng Chun Tong (wehng cheùn tòhng) in the Southern Shaolin Temple was dedicated to these goals. The characters used in the name of this hall translate directly to “Everlasting Spring,” the original name given the system. The name itself represents the essence of Shaolin Kung Fu Zen. It represented a secret code used by the designers calling for the rebirth of the Ming Dynasty.

As with all complex system design efforts in time of war, several models were developed and field-tested. The earliest design efforts were heavily influenced by the monk’s Zen Buddhist beliefs. Jee Sim Weng Chun (ji sihn wehng cheùn) (modern day name meaning ‘Extreme Compassion’), as one of the arts, points to the earliest phase in Wing Chun history. It is a complete system of combat training and one of the original expressions of Wing Chun Kung Fu. Its primary purpose was to retain an identity that presented the treasures of Shaolin Kung Fu – Health, Fighting Skills, and Zen. Even at this early stage of development, Wing Chun contained the tools needed to engage in all ranges of combat, from close-quarter to long range with weapons as its foundation. Today’s descendants call themselves Jee Sim Weng Chun practitioners and, like their Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun (hùhng fà yih wihng cheùn) counterparts discussed below, trace their roots directly to the Weng Chun Tong in the Southern Shaolin Temple. A modern day representative of this system, Sifu Andreas Hoffmann, resides and promotes this lineage in Germany.
----------------------------------
What I have gathered in the above quote, is what sparked the idea of the necessity for a more efficient fighting system to counter all the other styles, was their survival. Plain and simple. Current fighting systems took far too long to train their troops, so they needed something more efficient in training time with faster results. 3-5 years as opposed to 10-20 years training time. The following post then begins to address the paradigm shift and its effect.

-Savi.

[Savi]

Along with the already combat effective Jee Sim Weng Chun, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun was developed along a true paradigm shift in hand-to-hand combat thinking. Prior to this point in time, styles of combat were based on art and self-expression. Hung Fa Yi was created in an environment based strictly on human physiology and the physics of time and space. Personal artistic expression became irrelevant. Absolute control of time and space, with predictable and repeatable results in combat, represented the center of all focus. Science replaced art in the structure and evaluation of the entire style.

At the same time, the military logistic imperative for training warriors in a feasible time-frame became a paramount concern and was given overarching consideration. The ten years intensive training required to master classical Shaolin postures was not logistically viable. This version of Wing Chun may have been created by a different group within the same Weng Chun Tong or the same group heavily influenced by military thinking from Ming Dynasty officers; either way, members of the Chu royal family, the former leaders of the Ming Dynasty, supported this group. This is the first time in the development of Shaolin fighting systems that time and space themselves became the focal point of design consideration. They provided the “idea” in the first level of Siu Nim Tao (Little Beginning Idea) training. The military implications of this decision are far too extensive for review here. Suffice it to say the physical science expertise of the monks, resulting from their relentless pursuit of the laws of nature and universal harmony, pared with the tactical and logistical training necessities confronting the professional soldiers, yielded the ultimate fighting system in terms of efficiency and effectiveness.
----------------------------------
The paradigm shift Jim, sparked the basis of tailoring centuries of experience and knowledge to the human body (as you mentioned in your posts!) as opposed to animal postures. This gave rise to the 3-tier platform of SNT, CK, and BJ. It gave rise to many more things such as (referenced in the VTM article ‘Understanding the Wing Chun Punch’) the HFY Five-Line theory for example. The human form became the consideration to map out precise positions in space relative to the body (inside and out) to address any and all attacks with minimal use of Time, Space, and Energy as the driving factor. Symmetry and balance of all things considered were of utmost importance. From I understand of your postings about the Mantis, it lends you a strong basis to understand HFY structure. Some of the maxims you mention also parallel some things my Sitaigung always says.

Going back to the article, it immediately flows back into historical/foundational information about Jee Sim and Hung Fa Yi.
----------------------------------
Both Jee Sim and Hung Fa Yi lineages focus on the strong Zen Buddhist view of existence in terms of time, space, and energy. This same focus remains at their cores in the 21st Century. However, in Hung Fa Yi the major components of the Wing Chun fighting system’s modern day identity take on its key structures and form. This is where the Síu Nihm Tàuh (little idea in the beginning), Chàhm Kìuh (search bridge), and Bìu Jí (thrusting finger) forms of Wing Chun Kung Fu were first seen. Jee Sim does not reflect these forms and employs traditional Shaolin structures.

The inheritor of the Hung Fa Yi system, Sifu Garret Gee, lives and promotes this lineage in San Francisco, California. The name ‘Hung Fa Yi’ literally translates to “Red Flower Righteousness’ with its origins in the secret societies surrounding the Southern Temple during this period of continuous resistance fighting with the Manchu armies. The phrase “Hung Fa” came from Hung Fa Wui (hùhng fà wúih), a Shaolin secret society counterpart to the Hung Muhn (hùhng mùhn) revolutionary society. The word ‘Righteousness’ emphasizes practitioners’ strict adherence to the highest moral standards in conduct and battle in the fight for their country’s honor and preservation of their Han heritage. By this time the characters used to depict ‘Wing Chun’ have changed to mean ‘Praising Spring.’ The secret code had by this time evolved to encourage practitioners to continue talking about and soliciting support for the rebirth of the Ming Dynasty.
----------------------------------
I hope to continue this pleasant atmosphere. Sharing information is quite enjoyable to those with good intentions.

-Savi.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phenix
Here is a picture of copy of writing in the tomb of Dao Jong.
I appreciate the pictures, but unfortunately I can't read chinese. I'm sure the others who can read it, and haven't seen this information will take it into consideration. Hopefully then they can put their information here as well.

-Savi.

[Phenix]

Savi,

Thanks for great article.

However, it is still a speculation and an opinion. not a research IMHO.

one needs to show, evidents, platform, and legacy.......

since Jee Sim comes with Ng Mui in legend... one cannot abandon Ng Mui and only take Jee Sim.


Since as we have evident of Hung Fa Ting, the myth is clear.


The question remains, why is white crane of fujian's center line theory get into WCK.

Why is JeeSim's Sam Pai fut set closer similar to Long Fist of Shao Lin. For me, imho, LOng Fist of Shao Lin DNA is not White Crane fujian DNA. and WCK used White Crane DNA not long Fist DNA

[reneritchie]

Hi Jim,

I don't think its mind reading. I think when you get enough information, lay it all out, and take a big step back, certain patterns emerge.

This goes beyond WCK. How do deeply orthodox Judeochristians feel about the dinosaur/fosil record? For a half-a-century or more, since the Republic era and the migration of the first really public generation of MA teachers from China, we (Western Public) have been fed legends and creation myths, and while most of us don't accept them in Western history (how many fencing teachers try to claim they have Sir Lancelot's sword lineage? How many wrestlers claim descent from Heracles?), we still love their romance in martial arts circles.

But it will change, slowly, but persistently, as the next generation learns more and grows more.

[reneritchie]

Hi Hendrik,

Agreed, its not consistent to work with the Jee Shim legend but not the Ng Mui legend, as the two are completely intertwined (would be like trying to historically prove Thor but disprove Loki).


As you know, Lee Man-Mao, leader of the Red Junk participation in the Red Turban Rebellion, was a Fujian White Crane boxer. Likewise, there are stories that Fung Siu-Ching's art came from Fujian Weng Chun Kuen, and that some of his students kept up the reverance of the White Crane ancestors.

I think Andreas has already explained Saam Pai Fut. Weng Chun Sup Yaat Sao, IMHO, would be the more useful set to examine. I remember seeing Vincent Tso (did you meet him?) do some of his Jong Kuen, and the core movements and body mechanics were very intriguing.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Phenix
As for the relationship of White Crane from Fujian with WCK. now one has to explain..... As I said, the center line theory is from White Crane. so where is the paradigm shift? White Crane is preceed Hung Fa Ting....

From what I understand of centerline theory (I do not know White Crane's C/L theory, in mechanical or technical aspects), it comes from the Tien Yan Dei (heaven, man, earth) concept. As what *I've seen* of Jee Sim's physical expression of C/L theory, it is not as continuously expressed in vertical posture, but took the 'upright posture' after the paradigm shift of 'minimal use of time, space, and energy' became realized.

Also from what I am understanding now , yes the White Crane predates the Hung Fa Ting, as I already corrected myself in a previous post quoting an article. Refer back to it again if you need to.

I do have to go to the kwoon as testing is today and tomorrow. I will check back over the weekend...
-Savi.

[reneritchie]

Centerline theory probably comes from martial development towards efficiency, though certainly cultural references like Tien Dei Yan could be used by some to express them. Jim, did the Hakka fist you're familiar with use centerline concepts? Anything similar to WCK?

[Phenix]

Tien Tee Yan is from Iching.
how is that buddhist?

Center line theory with the combination of Sun hand has cast the DNA in stone for WCK.

back to the question again. So what is the uniqueness of SLT ?

Where is the small and post structure comes from? as Jim also ask?

my answer, imho, is you all see the small letter zhuang pictures a few days ago.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Every one,

Wow, what a discussion. I have to spend some time reading Jim's excellent posts. I have a couple questions.

I have seen a physical connection between the hakka arts for quite a while now. It is evident that much of the structure is similar, though there are distinct differences. I beleive they all have a similar flavor as do the shaolin arts. Mantis, bak mei, and wing chun each are similar as is Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, and Bak Soiu Lam are to eachother. The ear marks of each group are not found in the other ones. Though there are some overlaping between the groups. But I think if we look hard enough we would see this in boxing, karate and other arts too.

One of my questions is where do the hakka arts claim they come from? Where do mantis, Leung Ying, and White Crane claim as their roots? Do they consider themselves shaolin? I think Bak Mei does.

Jim, I have heard of the southern form you mention, but I am not so sure that it is as common as you suggested in southern arts, atleast not in the shaolin based arts. Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar don't have it. I don't think other arts like Mok Gar and Lau gar had them either. but I might be wrong on those. I don't recall them in Leung Ying or Bak Mei either. Correct me if I am wrong. However, I do think it is a common set and quite popular. I have not actually seen the chinese version, only some Okanawan versions.

As an interesting note, which people seem to ignore as we are all talking about records, Yip Man relates that Yimm Wing Chun was from Szechuan, or atleast living there. That is a quite a long way form Shaolin, north or south. Also,Ng Mui took refuge in the white crane temple (Omei). I think this part of the story is unique to Yip Man, but it is interesting and does support some apparent evidence and explains some difference. I am not to knowledgable on these topics, but how open was travel from around Honan (Shaolin) to Szechuan and finally back to Futsan? Thats a lot of traveling for average folks. And why did Yip Man say this?

Just some thoughts
Tom
________
Bdsm punishment (http://www.****tube.com/categories/247/punishment/videos/1)

[reneritchie]

Hey Tom,

We discussed this in another thread. Due to the economic condition that followed Qing dynastic succession, many people, especially disenfranchised young males, migrated from Fujian, through the Liangguang (Guangdong & Guangxi), into Sichuan, and back. In fact, the Tiandihui itself is said to have emerged following Ti Xi following this migration pattern.

MA have different origin story. Usually at least 1 Shaolin version, 1 heroic version, and sometimes more. You can find Shaolin origins for Lung Ying (Ng Mui teaching another monk, Tai something), Bak Mei (Bak Mei the Taoist becoming one of the Five Elders of Shaoling and passing on his art to another temple), Southern Mantis (Ng Mui teaching the Chu sisters), White Crane (Ng Mui founding it), etc. etc.

[tparkerkfo]

Thanks Rene,

So, if I understand it right, Fujian could be thought of as a hub of sorts. Hunan to Fujian would make the shaolin connection possible and link white crane. A fujian to Szechaun would make the Omei or taoist connection. Maybe this relates to Bak Mei and Ng Mui residing in the temples. Was it common for a taoist to be in a buddhist temple and vice versa? Then I would assume that Futsan would be a way point and in wing chun's case, the home base.

I know the common stories, but I have not seen a Leung Ying centric discussion about comming from Ng Mui. Bak Mei comes from a particular monk, but I am not so sure there was really a Shaolin connection. Apparently there are several versions of Bak mei, some of which may bear absolutly NO relation to each other. Eddie Chong's Bak Mei, though is similar to CLC, doesn't claim him in their lineage. What I read on White Crane suggested Fong(?) Wing Chun learned some Shaolin Kung Fu from a father or something. But is it really from Shaolin. not sure about Mantis. It's connection seems to be in other temples. But it is interesting that there are stories about a shaolin connection.

What aboyut Leung Ting's research in his "Wing Tsun Kuen" book that states that Hung Moon list different surviors from the temple?

I love this stuff and wish there was more info availible.

Tom
________
PUBLIC BRITISH (http://www.****tube.com/categories/930/british/videos/1)

[Savi]

Everyone, before I head off...

The VTM article in the link provided here:
http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/jeung_ngh.php

goes into discussion of HFY's Si Jou, Cheung Ng, and 4 elements of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Formula. The paradigm shift we have been discussing laid the groundwork of the formation of the HFYWC Formula. It is with this formula where Hendrik's question of "Where did Tan Sau come from being that White Crane has 5 of them?" (not verbatim) in his Hung Mun Tai Tzu thread, will be addressed. It should also bring some light into WCK's unique structure, from HFY's traditions.

Jim, I hope this information will add to your 'pelvis' questions.

And just one note... it seems apparent that we are all agreeing WC came from Shaolin, whether it be from Crane, Mantis, Dragon, or whatever. These arts (aside from Hakka, which I don't know about) we are referencing comes from a Shaolin heritage. (as far as I know...)

Hung Fa Yi and Jee Sim are claiming to be flowers of the Shaolin Temple Arts as a whole, and not just from another singular martial art. It sounds like we are beginning to sing from the same page then.

Please read the article, I'll be back on Saturday or Sunday....
-Savi.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene,


Mantis Centerline theory was similar but a pinch different from WC. WC stresses aligning the wrists on the center where as South Mantis uses the Hut Yee Sao open door policy. They are inviting you in and then they will close the door on you.

Some of the aspects are very similar tho! Attacking the center and defending their center with slight deflections, hooks, slicing actions. Once the structure has been joined they continue to press the opponent until he is down.

They split the body into four corners (up/low left and right). Hand against hand and foot against foot.

They do not use the Yum Yeung effect of the turning horse like WC. Very straight forward military style boxing.

I dont have too much time today or I would write more.


:eek:


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Tom,


Wow, what a discussion. I have to spend some time reading Jim's excellent posts. I have a couple questions.

Its good to have an educated discussion once in a while! Unfortunately its not often! hehehe JR

I have seen a physical connection between the hakka arts for quite a while now. It is evident that much of the structure is similar, though there are distinct differences. I beleive they all have a similar flavor as do the shaolin arts. Mantis, bak mei, and wing chun each are similar as is Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, and Bak Soiu Lam are to eachother. The ear marks of each group are not found in the other ones. Though there are some overlaping between the groups. But I think if we look hard enough we would see this in boxing, karate and other arts too.

Exactly. Core structure, forms pattern, numerology, principles etc. have to be examined. JR

One of my questions is where do the hakka arts claim they come from? Where do mantis, Leung Ying, and White Crane claim as their roots? Do they consider themselves shaolin? I think Bak Mei does.

They consider themselves Northern Guest of which brought the Kung Fu down to the south. Atleast the Mantis people do! Yet! They all link back to some Shaolin story but nothing is proven. Although! The Jook Lum temples are still in China but the funny thing is they make no mention of Kung Fu! Below you can see a write up of where Jook Lum was suppsed to originate. JR

""Southern Praying Mantis Kungfu originated in the bamboo forest of Mt. Dragon-Tiger, Kiangsi province. The scenic mountain range resembles a dragon and tiger bowing to each other. The first Taoist Pope of China, Chang Tao Ling, established his religious authority there which continued until 1949 as sixty three unbroken generations. Today, the palaces of Chang Tao Ling are located in Kwei Hsi district of Kiangsi. They are divided into two compounds, the Hsiang Ching Palace, and the Heavenly Master Mansion. The former is the temple proper and accomodated hundreds of Taoist priests. The later is the official residence of the Taoist Pope. Mt. Dragon-Tiger is a tourist attraction in China today.""

Jim, I have heard of the southern form you mention, but I am not so sure that it is as common as you suggested in southern arts, atleast not in the shaolin based arts.

They are more common among the more traditional South arts that are "supposed" to be Shaolin and even the Okinawan arts. Not a lot of the family arts that are numerous. JR

Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar don't have it. I don't think other arts like Mok Gar and Lau gar had them either. but I might be wrong on those.

These are all part of the 5 family arts and not the so-called south Shaolin arts like Mantis, Crane, etc.. JR

I don't recall them in Leung Ying or Bak Mei either. Correct me if I am wrong.

Lung Ying and Bak Mei (I believe Bak Mei is an off-shoot of LY or vise versa) seem to be more eclectic versions of the main systems. Lam Yu Gwai ??? was rumored to have visited and studied under Chung Yel Chong of the South Mantis clan. So, I kind of list them in the eclectic grouping. JR

However, I do think it is a common set and quite popular. I have not actually seen the chinese version, only some Okanawan versions.

Its an amazing form. Check out the Vibration form of White Crane. You will see the similarities. E-mail me and I will tape some stuff for you! The Okinwan version just looks like some corrupt version of it also. Yet! The okinwans claim to get their skill from Pang Gai Noon or something like that. Memory is going at an early age. Basically some form of White Crane. JR


Just some thoughts


Good speaking with you. Check out the attachment to get a good idea of the area around Fukien!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hey Savi,

FWIW - I don't think anyone's agreeing on Shaolin origins, just that many systems use the Shaolin myth. It was common practice at one time in China to just add "Shaolin" to the name of your art, since it was famous and everyone knew it, as a way to attract students and gain credibility (instead of fighting on the Loi Toi, for example).

White Eyebrow, Dragon Shape, Southern Mantis, etc. probably have nothing to do with Shaolin, aside from that.

[Rolling_Hand]

Hendrik wrote:

Why is JeeSim's Sam Pai fut set closer similar to Long Fist of Shao Lin. For me, imho, LOng Fist of Shao Lin DNA is not White Crane fujian DNA. and WCK used White Crane DNA not long Fist DNA

------------------------------------------------------

Hendrik,
Here is the shaolin Chi Sim(Jee Sim) WCK history, not Hendrik's history...

The Philosophy – Principle of Effectiveness
For the Shaolin monks, it was paramount to experience reality directly. Their philosophy of Chan-Buddhism meant a return to the natural and the simple. This often stood in contrast to the philosophies of fighting styles taught outside the temple. These often referred to magic, faith or obedience to older generations. This is why the Weng Chun temple incorporated only those fighting concepts, which really worked simply and directly.

Shaolin Abbot Chi Sin Sim Si – Guardian of the Art
Treachery led to the Shaolin temple being destroyed in the 18th century by the ruling powers. The Shaolin abbot Chi Sin Sim Si was able to flee with some other monks and got himself hired as a cook on the “Red Boat” under a false name. The “Red Boat” was a ship of a Chinese opera troupe, which travelled from town to town to entertain the people.

The vital Secret
The members of the “Red Boat” were delighted and wanted to learn Kung Fu from their cook at once. Abbot Chi Sin Sim Si revealed his true identity and was ready to teach the opera troupe. However, as he was one of the most persecuted men of his time, his pupils had to promise never to use or reveal his real name. That is why it came about, that many legends concerning Weng Chun were invented around this time, so as to protect Master Chi Sin Sim Si.

Only the Weng Chun masters, who had learned the entire system from their Master were told the truth.

The Flowering of Weng Chun Kuen in the 19th Century
At that time Master Fung Siu Ching taught pupils from the whole of China, Singapore, Thailand and Indonesia (even today there are still many Asian Weng Chun schools, who trace their lineage to Master Fung Siu Ching or the “Red Boat”). He was one of the first full-time Weng Chun masters. He supervised teaching groups during the day as well as at night and had many private pupils.

Fung Siu Ching’s master pupils in Fatshan were: his son Fung Tin, the brothers Lo, Tang Suen, Dung Jik and the “Chemist” Ma Chung Yi

Security in Fatshan
During the Ching dynasty (1644 – 1911) only the larger cities were protected by the “state police” of the day. Smaller cities and villages were protected by renown Kung Fu masters.

Master Fung Siu Ching’s master pupils guarded many villages in Fatshan and the surrounding area. The Lo brothers, for example, drove off entire bands of robbers armed only with butterfly knives and sabres. On one occasion, the two Lo brothers are said to have even chased off twenty armed robbers without injuring them. The Lo brothers just took the clothes and weapons away from the robbers, so that these fled. Their Weng Chun Kuen “brother” Master Tang Suen received the honorary title “King of the Long Pole” from the people of the villages, that he protected, because he kept them safe from the greatest dangers using a long pole.

The Initiator WAI YAN
Wai Yan was born at the beginning of our century as the son of a rich Chinese family in Hong Kong.

Via his older friend Lo Chiu Woon, the young Wai Yan often came into contact with the martial art Weng Chun Kuen. However, Wai Yan did not really want to know anything about “Kung Fu”, because he had often experienced Kung Fu practitioners as violent and uneducated. Had his friend Lo Chiu Woon (a descendant of the Lo brothers) not been a Weng Chun master and a Chinese academic at the same time, then Wai Yan would certainly not have had any contact with him.

GM Wai Yan passes on his inheritance to GM Andreas Hoffmann

Sources of the historical background of Weng Chun Kuen

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand
Hendrik wrote:

Why is JeeSim's Sam Pai fut set closer similar to Long Fist of Shao Lin. For me, imho, LOng Fist of Shao Lin DNA is not White Crane fujian DNA. and WCK used White Crane DNA not long Fist DNA

------------------------------------------------------


Here is the shaolin Chi Sim(Jee Sim) WCK history, not Hendrik's history..........


Only the Weng Chun masters, who had learned the entire system from their Master were told the truth.








If I think Sam Pai Fut i saw Andreas did is closer to the Shao Lin Long Fist. is that a sin? how do you explain Andreas Kuen Kuit on "San Chaan Tang Nor"? which can be found in Shao Lin book?
Belive it or not I have also send the Long Fist type of picture to Andreas, Robert Chu, Rene.... years ago. What's wrong with discussion?

Otherwise, if you think Sam PAi Fut is from Fujian Engchun, Then how do Fujian Engchun related to Shao Lin or Hung Fa Ting as the above article and evidents suggest?
So it is not Shao LIn? it is White Crane ? Are you changing the story again?



B, Who is the Weng Chun masters who had learned the entire system from their Master were told the truth as you suggest?

Is that you?




Sorry, in this scientific era we talk with evidents.
and you need to show your evidents.
Instead of attacking me, it is about reasoning not about attacking others.

You can't use nothing to beat something. It doesn't work. Rolling Hand. sorry to tell you Hung Fa Ting is in my home town county. wake up, discuss without attack. show evidents..
and don't try to group things which is not related into one.
or else people will ask you what is your agenda? See, you stilll didn't explain how SLT comes from with your own evidents......I belive JIm and I are waiting for your DNA.... relax. this is a discussion forum. :D

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Rolling Hand,

First off, thanks for draging HFY into the discussion and possibly derailing the topic. LOL. I think we should take into account Gee Shim and all other evidence as we should not distort information to suit our biases.

I would ask, has any of the info you cut and pasted been independantly verified, or is it just a story Gee Shim Weng Chun passes down? If it is just their version and no independent verification has been done, then their version is no more reliable than Pan Nam's or Yip Man's, or Yik Kam's, or Yuen Kay San's, or any other version.

I am wondering however as I am having a debate about wing chun and hung gar else were, why does wing chun on the whole acknowledge Gee Shim as the source of the pole. The pole tends to retain the shaolin aspects of the wide horses and other training methods. However, the rest of the system is radically modified as is the history. None of the core concepts and principles in Gee Shim's teachings seem to be in Wing Chun, though they are in Hung Gar, or vise versa? If any art is said to be from Gee Shim, it is hung gar. How similar is Gee Shim Weng Chun and Hung Gar in theory, principles, etc? How does what is written account for and apply to Hung Gar?

Tom
________
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[Jim Roselando]

Roger,


Good to see you contributing some info..


Now, back to the discussion.


With all do respect, the problem with this history is that once you get past Fung Siu Ching and Dai Fa Min you lose credibility. The same old 5 elder story/fable starts coming into the picture and to most Chinese you can basically consider the 5 Elders to be no different from Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

But! If they did exist they sure were busy people.

Ng Mui can be credited for numerous arts (Bak Hok, Wu Mei, Wing Chun, etc. etc.). I am sure each believe she was the founder of their respected art but logic says fat chance.

Jee Shim was also quite busy. Seeing how he was the founder of Hung Gar and Weng Chun etc... I wonder if Hung Hei Gwun would agree that his teacher new two arts or developed another art later??? Also, Hung Hei Gwun states that Jee Shim's real sir name was Hung. Hence the reason for calling the art Hung Kuen.

If the Manchu's invaded around 1644 and the temples were supposed to be destroyed in the early 1700's then how would Jee Shim be around long enough to cook/teach on the red boats during the early to mid 1800's? Also, since Jee Shim's so-called student (Hung Hei Gwun) (who was supposed to learn from the older monk) lived between 1745-1825 it would make it very difficult for his older teacher to live into the 1800's to teach and live as a cook on the Red Boats!


Read below what a Hung Gar school writes about Chinese History! I feel it applies to the WC, Weng Chun, Bak Mei etc. etc.

The history of Hung Ga is a very controversial one because it’s full of legends and contradictions. First of all, the Chinese historiography is quite unreliable; it’s very mythological and not very factual - no exact dates, places, etc. The stories have been blown up and changed/twisted throughout times. Many have just been made up because people had no idea about their lineage and the origin of their style and it was necessary to give their students a story.
The same also applies for Hung Ga. The real interest in the history of Hung Ga originated in the first quarter of the twentieth century with the books written by Lam Saiwing. The Hong Kong movie industry can also be credited with the popularity of Hung Ga. The interest rose to it’s peak, however, when Western people started learning Hung Ga. These students were much more curious about the origin and asked a lot of questions to their sifus.

This sudden popularity led to the need for stories about the origin of Hung Ga. For example, there were great stories about Hung Heigun learning crane style from his wife, creating the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kyun, fighting against treacherous Baak Mei etc. These stories were thickened by the Hong Kong movie industry further because they needed good storylines. Today it’s clear though that it was really Wong Feihung who created today’s known Fu Hok Seung Ying Kyun, and that there’s actually little factual knowledge about Hung Heigun and the other masters before Wong Feihung.

The dates of peoples’ existence are not very strict. In China there wasn’t kept a “Central Registration of Population”, so the Chinese often did not know when they were born. Also it is a Buddhist habit to add two years to somebody’s life: one for being born and one for passing away (journey to heaven). The Taoists even added many more years if somebody was very respected. For example, it is argued that Wong Feihung died in 1924 instead of 1933. This leads to false dates and it’s often impossible to track the original dates by Western calendars. Therefore it’s best to read the dates as “circa”.

Often different stories are told in different lineages. This even happens today. Though, indeed, some people lie about their lineage, most can be explained as a difference in perspective. For example it’s very common that people trained under several teachers and only mention one as their teacher (the one where they trained longest, the most respected teacher, the one with the best lineage, etc.). However, all the teachers will in turn say “he’s my student”. Also it was very common in the old days that the assistant was the one teaching and the sifu just sat, watched and gave some oral instructions. Who was the actual teacher then?

Since it’s mostly a difference in perspective, it’s hard to say one is lying and the other tells the truth. It’s a fact that in the different lineages different historical stories are told and it should not get into the way of the promotion and spreading of Hung Ga through the world.


In conclusion: The things written at this website are by no means the absolute truth. Some parts are just based on legends and some things might be seen very different in your own lineage.

[Jim Roselando]

Hi Tom,


Good points. I dont think WC claims the pole from Jee Shim but more from Weng Chun 6.5. The Gee Shim part just fits in with the rest of legends/fables.


How similar is Hung Gar and Weng Chun was the perfect question!


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hung Gar Photo attached!

[reneritchie]

Some people also learned more than one lineage, such as Yuen Kay-San under Fok & Fung. The Cho's had their ancestral village boxing (some Choy Lai Fut, some White Crane). Some of the Weng Chun people had prior/latter experience in Hung, CLF, Wing Chun, etc.

What systems look like today are a product of generations of evolution (even unintentional, as humans are not replicative machines), and comparing what Hung Ga (post Wong Fei-Hong), Weng Chun (post Chu Chong-Man), etc. look like today may not have the same meaning as what they looked like in the mid 1800s.

[Jim Roselando]

Hung Gar photo attached.

[Rolling_Hand]

Hendrik wrote:

If I think Sam Pai Fut i saw Andreas did is closer to the Shao Lin Long Fist. is that a sin?

--------------------------------------------------------------

At this moment, probably the strongest ideology in this forum is Hendriklism. This atmosphere is not favorable to bringing about the WCK world without Hendrik's mumbo.

From Shaolin to Wong Wah-Bo WCK - SLT, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee.

From Emie to Yik Kam's family art- 12 Zheung (a.k.a Hendrik's SLT)

Is superior intellect a large development of the faculty of association by similarity?

Hm...

The difference between the real kung fu guy and the self-appointed kung fu expert is this:

the real kung fu guy --do kung fu.

the self-appointed kung-fu expert--talk kung-fu.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene,


I agree and somewhat disagree a pinch. People are not carbon copies, and cannot exacatly duplicate anything, but if you look a most arts you can see how they still show the main similarities as they did many years ago unless someone meshed it with a lot of other stuff or changed it a lot.

YKS, Pin Sun, Cho etc. all seem to resemble WC as it was done for the past 100 + years or so and all three of these arts had other influence with Kung Fu. YKS has two. Some of the Fung's had Fujian Kung Fu in the village before WC. The Cho's had CLF etc.. Yet they still keep the core WC in tact some 100 + years later.

In the Mantis arts the main thing you see changed is the addition of more forms and a longer/bigger structure but looking back at the older you see smaller more compact stuff with less forms. Kind of like most arts now unfortunatley but the core characteristcs are still the same some 100 + years later.


Roger,


The difference between the real kung fu guy and the self-appointed kung fu expert is this:

the real kung fu guy --do kung fu.

the self-appointed kung-fu expert--talk kung-fu.


Unfortunately on a "discussion board" all we can do is talk.

Your answers are the sign of zero research/info.. You cut and paste some stuff and take it as gospel. When someone shows logical information as to how Jee Shim, Ng Mui etc. is just a fable you get huffy.


If you cant discuss WC in an adult way then please go into lurk mode so it doesnt waste others time.


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hey Jim,

I think we actually agree completely. My point is that you need to do the work to discern what is more likely ancestral, and what is the result of different evolutions. For example, if some WCK in SEA learned Hung for 50 years, thenWCK, and his WCK looked 90% like Hung, is that a sign that WCK and Hung share common ancestry? Maybe, maybe not. You'd have to do the work, see Hung and WCK from different lineages, date their split, see what commonalities likely existed before it, etc.....

[Jim Roselando]

Hiya Rene,


Ooops! Misunderstood your post amigo.

Totally agree with you.

Gotta run! Too much posting today!

Its effecting my work! Uggg!


See ya!

[desertwingchun2]

"From Shaolin to Wong Wah-Bo WCK - SLT, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee.

From Emie to Yik Kam's family art- 12 Zheung (a.k.a Hendrik's SLT)" - RH

This is the message Jim should have posted.

Found this bit while net surfing ...

.... Clergical branch, or Fo Jia Pai in Mandarin (Hood Kar Pai in Hokkien, a Chinese dialect from Fujian Province of China), was practised traditionally by Shao-Lin monks, whereas laic branch, or Su Jia Pai, was practised by laymen. Examples of the latter are Hong Jia Quan (Hong Gar Kuen in Cantonese) and Fu-Jian White Crane Style.

Hmmm ....

Jim - Thanks for sharing so much on Southern Mantis. Looks like theres a lot to read.

-David

[tparkerkfo]

Hi All,

Thanks Jim, things just don't add up when you really disect things. Now that I am doing Hung Gar, I just don't get it. LOL. The stories say Leung Yee Tai learned the 6.5 pole from Gee Shim, atleast Yip Man's lineage does. But Perhaps that was a partial meaning. Maybe he learned Gee Shim WENG CHUN and that is were the pole came from. It was assumed to be Gee Shim himself. Who knows. But good point likewise.

Rene, yes arts probably are not the same. We don't know what was taught in the early 1800s. However, we can see differences between Yik Kam, Yuen Kay San, and Yip Man wing chun, but we also see a similar flavor. It is still very close. Yes hung gar too has been highly modified. However, we do have various villiage styles that exists outside of Wong Fei Hung. And they do seem to have the same flavor as Wong Fei Hung Hung Gar.

Tom
________
SHIP SALE (http://ship-sale.com/)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Tom,


Logic shows how a lot of these old stories dont add up. Too much BS in Chinese common or commercial history. Especially the 5 fabled elders.

Gee Shim would have taught "Geung Gee Fook Fu Kuen, Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen and Tit Sein Kuen etc." to Hung Hei Gwun and then taught "Weng Chun Kuen, Fa Kuen, Sam Bai Fut and Jong Kuen etc." to Dai Fa Min Kam???? Plus! The datelines dont jive!

Please realize the stuff I write has nothing against any of the arts being discussed (Hung Gar, Weng Chun, HFY, etc. etc.). Its all about discussing the old legends/myths that surround arts and histories etc. . Remember! My own family promotes the Ng Mui, etc. etc. so its just my own thoughts and has nothing against anyone or any lineage.

IMO You just cant come up with something new even tho the old was around for so long and understood so well. The other problem is the old I am talking about was highly effective and simple to learn. The south arts were not arts that took 10-15 years to learn. Something has to come into the picture to develop a new mechanics and art outline. Thats why I feel Hendrik's info. makes so much sense.


See ya,

[reneritchie]

David -

> "From Shaolin to Wong Wah-Bo WCK - SLT, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee.

> From Emie to Yik Kam's family art- 12 Zheung (a.k.a Hendrik's SLT)" - RH

> This is the message Jim should have posted.

Not sure if you meant to agree with the mistatement quoted, but to clarify, it should read : Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage.

I think if we're discussing this in good faith, we should make every effort to keep that faith, especially in respecting the views of others, and not mistating them (not directed at you, but at all of us).

Jim - I'm not sure Jee Shim would have taught either Tiet Sin Kuen or Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen. Annecdotal accounts place both of those sets as being introduced after Hung Hey-Goon's time. This is part of the point I was making about trying to judge ancestral arts based on modern practices.

You're right about the info Hendrik is presenting (I wouldn't call it "his" as he didn't make it up but researched and presented it, and provided a means for others to independantly evaluate it). As you know, I didn't agree with it at first (and still am not sure about parts) but what makes it different than most others is that it has substance beyond what he writes, and while we can't say for sure, its far more difficult to disprove than most others.

[Jim Roselando]

Hey RR,


Good points.


I forgot that the Fu Hok set was a later development by one of the Hung masters. Never heard that about the Tit Sein but then I really dont know didly about Hung Gar.


Mckind (David),

I realized I didnt reply to your post. Sorry! Will try and hit it tomorrow!


See ya,

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Rene and Jim,

Yes those two forms in Hung Gar are much newer. The only form that is supposed to come from Gee Shim is Gung Gee, and that is said to have been retooled by Wong Fei Hung. However, there would be a certain flavor and a core set of techniques.

I am not sure what weapons come from Gee Shim, as most are borrowed at a latter date. People point to the butterfly knives in Hung Gar, but from my experience there are two distinct sets, and neither look like Wing Chuns.

Other people mistakly point to Fu Hok's opening sequence as a connection to wing chun. They see wing chun moves and figure it is the same. The call Bueaty looks at mirror a tan sau for example. Bueaty looks at mirror is more of an outward block, totaly different usage. Some see YJKYM and say, " look, its wing chun". Though that stance is found in Iron Wire which is external to hung gar, and is common to white crane and other internal arts. People say there si a bong sau and pak sau. Well, those are common in many styles.

IF there is a connection between hung gar and wing chun, I would say that it is only visible in the bridging. There are some unique bridging concepts that seem similar, atleast more so than YJKYM and a couple opening sequences in Fu Hok. But I am a novice at both wing chun and hung gar so it is hard to say. But I do see something worth looking at.

As far as the legends, I think you got it right Jim, the elders would be too busy to create all those arts. LOL. I often point out the number of arts attributed to each. I beleive Gee Shim trained Hung Hei Goon and Luk Ah Choi for a while. There is some contradictions, but some say Hung Hei Goon escaped the destruction WITH Gee Shim. So at least he would be along with him durring the early years, which means he wouldn't have been on the Red Boats at that period without Hung Hei Goon. Then Luk Ah Choi was said to either have trained with Hung Hei Goon, or in many cases, directly with Gee Shim after Hung Hei Goon, or instead of with Hung hei Goon. So he would be with Gee Shim a bit later. I am assuming that if he was the head monk, he would be older when the temple was burned down, and not have a lot of time to train several people and develop a new style. Hung Gar takes a little while to learn, so I would say that probably accounts for 5- 10 years after the destruction of the temple. I just wonder when and where he would have time for the red boats and such. And for those that think wing chun is a quik art, who reaches a high degree of skill in a short period? And besides, where would a vegetarian learn to cook meat?

By the way, I don't take Hung Gar lineage too serious either. But if we are going to claim things as passed down, I think Hung Gar is as acurate as any other branch. Most branches did not document things well. Hung Gar had the fortune of Being taugh in the Wong Fei Hung Family for a couple generations and was recorded to a degree.

just some thoughts
Tom
________
Anime Xxx (http://www.****tube.com/categories/3/anime/videos/1)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand


At this moment, probably the strongest ideology in this forum is Hendriklism. This atmosphere is not favorable to bringing about the WCK world without Hendrik's mumbo.

From Shaolin to Wong Wah-Bo WCK - SLT, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee.

From Emie to Yik Kam's family art- 12 Zheung (a.k.a Hendrik's SLT)





Rolling Hand,

From your posts which always targeting me,
Somehow you don't like me and love to attack me. And that is fine.

However, There is no Hendriklism.

There is only FACTSlism.

As you like the Facts or not, that is your choice.
I just present and it is up to everyone's decision. I don't force people to belive. as i said, i am not perfect. Just willing to share what I found out.



On other hand,
If you love to continous your own stories in the legend / movie land that is also understandable.

I am also interested in your view in the movie land.

In that case, you needs to explain, how is ChiSim survive to Red Junk. While in the story and shaw brothers' movies..... Chisim was killed by Bak Mei in the ambus of Shao Lin. obviously, Chisim's Kung fu is not as good as Bak Mei...
And Later Hung Wen-Ting or the son of Hung Hei-Kun has to revenge for his father and Chisim.... to look for BAk Mei for revenge....

Now, there is no Wing Chun Kun or Siu Lien Tau? How will you fit them in? What is your interesting plot?




HONESTLY, I DON'T EVEN CARE IF SLT IS FROM EMEI OR SHAO LIN OR WUDANG OR FIJI OR MARS OR SATURN OR MOON OR YWC IS ET OR TAN SAU NG IS THE ......

WHAT I CARE IS WHAT GOOD IS ALL THE HIS-STORY (INCLUDED MY OWN) PRESENTED DOING FOR EVERY ONE'S SLT TRAINING.

ONE CANNOT CONTIOUS DOING SLT AND EXPECT SOMEDAY'S NG MUI OR WHOEVER POPS UP AND MIRRACLE HAPPEN.---- ' POOF' ATTAIN THE ULTIMATE POWER. IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

STORIES WITHOUT EVIDENTS AND SPECULATION OF ORIGINAL WITHOUT FACTS ARE JUST OPIUM OF MIND. SELLING EMPTY HOPE.
WHILE IN THE SAMETIME, IMPORTING OTHER ART SUCH AS TAIJI, BJJ, GRAPPING, GROUND FIGTHING........ BECAUSE PEOPLE KNOWS IT DOENS'T WORK.

IS THAT WCK? DOES WCK REALLY WORK?
IMHO, MARTIAL ART OR RELIGION WHICH IS NOT SERVING HUMAN BEINGS BUT DRAIN HUMAN BEING'S ENERGY IS NOT WORTH PROTECTING.
CAN WE ALL FACE OURSELF AND HONESTLY ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS?

HERE , I AM NOT AGAINST ANY ONE, OR LINEAGE, OR STYLE. IMHO, it is just my own thought. hope that in this land of freedom of speech. An honest communication can be made. Again, I can be wrong.

One can keep beliving the black vynal (spelling?) record is going to be around forever but wake out somedays to find out CD has replace all the black vynal record. And the record industry collapse over night. WHAT is the FAITH of future WCK?
That is the question I am asking.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
And besides, where would a vegetarian learn to cook meat?

Tom

Tom,

the teaching of Buddha is to sacrifice himself to feed the hungry eagle or tiger.


I think the only meat the Buddha will cook is his own.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik-
some comments and a question-

1. I have learned a lot from your comments on Chan, Emei and your lineage-

2. You have raised some interesting questions on wc history.

3, we are still a ways off from havinga definitive history of wung chun.

4. People can disagree with you and of course we have our resident anonymous troll..

5. I understand Sakyamuni's reverence and compassion for living things and the avoidance of killing. But at the same time- the middle way avoids dogmatic ascetism specially in certain circumstances. Being non discrminatory on class and caste he had
accepted food from a low catse person... unfortunately the story is that it was spoiled sausage which contributed to his last illness.
Also the Dalai Lama from his Tibetan perspective points out that even though he tried to avoid it he had to settle for meat given the geography of the high plateaux of Tibet. There is an existential dimension to this and doing the best one can.Any comment?

6. In the website of the the other Cho sifu that someone (Dezhen?) posted- his stancing appeared to be closer to a bow than to
a derivative of ygkym. Is that because of mixes of other things
besides wc in what he does? Swallow and spit occurs in many nam kuen-but his leaning back seems to be a different swallowing from atleast what I know and use. Comments?

joy

[yuanfen]

Savi sez:And just one note... it seems apparent that we are all agreeing WC came from Shaolin, whether it be from Crane, Mantis, Dragon, or whatever. These arts (aside from Hakka, which I don't know about) we are referencing comes from a Shaolin heritage. (as far as I know...)

Hung Fa Yi and Jee Sim are claiming to be flowers of the Shaolin Temple Arts as a whole, and not just from another singular martial art. It sounds like we are beginning to sing from the same page then.
--------------------------------------------------------
((An overgeneralization about Shaolin IMO and the supposed agreement. Shaolin is one very big umbrella which covers many claims))

((Jim- southern mantis IMO is also very aware of the center line principle and the protection of the center with the elbows.))

(( Also- IMO FWIW contributing to the development fo the center line theory surely the Buddhist conception of body structure the dan tiens and related spinal alignments and their physiological impkications surely playeda role. The awareness of the martial implications and possibilities of this fundanebral idea- took time in evolving. This is part of the reason why I think that wc is a very advanced art because in its evolution it synthesized so many good things in TCMA)

[tparkerkfo]

Another interesting topic,

Gee Shim is noted for his Tiger skills. This formed the foundation of the Hung Gar system and is his legacy. People who think wing chun and hung gar are connected, often point the Crane elements. However, it is known in Hung Gar that the crane was added much later from an external source.

So, How would Jee Shim teach the "crane" system to wing chun and the tiger system hung gar. Even if he did, the crane could not be the same as Hung Gar since it comes from a different source. Yet another connection between wing chun, hung gar is in contradiciton if we look at the legends. It makes no sense.

I think it is good to look at other arts like Gee Shim weng chun to help answer our questions. But we should look at everything. Hung Gar is the one art that has always had a close tie to Gee Shim. So if we are to beleive Gee Shim Weng Chun's oral traditions, then we should atleast look at Hung Gar's as well and see how they overlap and contradict each other.

Just voicing my confusion in the hung Gar/wing chun, Gee Shim, and shaolin connection

Tom
________
THE APPRENTICE ADVICE (http://www.tv-gossip.com/apprentice/)

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik-
some comments and a question-

4. People can disagree with you and of course we have our resident anonymous troll..



Joy,

Understood. Just hope that the troll wake up before they slam into wall.. sad for them for the future.




5. I understand Sakyamuni's reverence and compassion for living things and the avoidance of killing. But at the same time- the middle way avoids dogmatic ascetism specially in certain circumstances. Being non discrminatory on class and caste he had
accepted food from a low catse person... unfortunately the story is that it was spoiled sausage which contributed to his last illness.
Also the Dalai Lama from his Tibetan perspective points out that even though he tried to avoid it he had to settle for meat given the geography of the high plateaux of Tibet. There is an existential dimension to this and doing the best one can.Any comment?



IMHO,
This is not an easy one.
middle way is great but we have to deal with "body chemistry" and emotional effect to the body/mind/spirit----- energy.

But, after fortunate enough to have meet with different monks and rinpoche, Cleansing, strict vegitarian... that is the Surangama's rules which are required for buddhist cultivators.

as I have learn specially for those wants to cultivate Samadhi... to avoid mind/body problems....energy handling problem.

It is true that Buddha had said, if there is really really poor living condition area. one can eat the cropse of nature die animal. But not the one we kill. but in surangama sutra, the buddha said No to serious cultivator.

As for Dai Lai Lama, well when he went to Taiwan, he order lots of gourme Meat foods... the Taiwan Buddhists protest... no comment.

but Taiwan fill with good food and vegi. Only Dai Lai himself know. if what he did is appropriate or in the name of Middle way to fulfill his own desire.





6. In the website of the the other Cho sifu that someone (Dezhen?) posted- his stancing appeared to be closer to a bow than to
a derivative of ygkym. Is that because of mixes of other things
besides wc in what he does? Swallow and spit occurs in many nam kuen-but his leaning back seems to be a different swallowing from atleast what I know and use. Comments?

joy


IMHO, I see his "interpretation" of WCK. closer to Hung Gar mix taiji then WCK.

1, I think using the "cover " for the Horn attack is not taking the advantage of the horn is an outer circle attact. well, for me, i will take advantage of it go piecing throught to
the center line. instead of going out even further outside the outside circle to do the defence.... that is no longer swallow.... but can be losing potential and timing....

2, I think his side body angle attact on the picture after the cover.... is too far from the oponent. that left the opponent to change. I myself prefer to stick in and leave no room to the opponent who did the horn punch.


My sifu uses the type of stance in the salutation as in the following article if you want to have a feel of how in general my sifu did it in fighting....

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/readings/historical/cho_santo01.html


But then, may be different people remember it differently.

[Phenix]

Tom,

Again, IMHO, why is people emphasis Gee Sim so much that Ng Mui is being ignore? in the legend, Ng Mui is the Crane master . she survived the ambush of Shao Lin... Gee Sim did not.

Now, it seems that some how, Gee Sim become a now a day "one stop shoping" master. Gee Sim has it all.

Soon he becomes a YUGi OH master.... (sigh) if no evidents presented and continous to speculate.

I am not against anyone or any style or any lineage. IMHO, just for discussion. To be honest, I found some sifus one generation older sometimes is not as literate and mixing up story. Can't blame them for they were trying their best.

However, are we going to continous on the mis communication they makes?

we have seen the potrait even for Dao Jong or Hung Mun. we can lock the place and time of Hung Fa Ting. We have seen the preserve teaching of White Crane Bubishi. We have seen the preserve teaching of Shao LIn. We have seen the preserve teaching of emei. .... We even have seen the documentation of General Qih Qi-Kuan of Ming Dynasty.


To be real honest, there is another can of worm from Ming Dynasty martial art which I can open. But I am not going to do so now... do we have the data? yes. we have it.

Now, it is just an interpolation. there are data of the pre and post era..... IMHO

Now, still no one shows us a picture of Chesim, a kuen kuit of Chesim.. beside Hung Gar related.


it is a simple even as i see, imho, no need to get into Ming dynasty, General Chen Sin-Kung, Hung Fa Ting, Yat Nim......
when one cut throught everthing. there is not much stunning new invention or revolution but evolution.

Just my 2 cents and I can be wrong. Just for discussion. and no offense.

[yuanfen]

Hendrik- agree on the Dalai Lama and the hungar/taiji mix
rather than wck in the cho link in this thread by Dezhen.
Thanks.

[Rolling_Hand]

Rene Ritchie wrote:

David -

> "From Shaolin to Wong Wah-Bo WCK - SLT, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee.

> From Emie to Yik Kam's family art- 12 Zheung (a.k.a Hendrik's SLT)" - RH

> This is the message Jim should have posted.

Not sure if you meant to agree with the mistatement quoted, but to clarify, it should read : Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage.

------------------------------------------------------------

Are you suggesting that Wong Wah-Bo learned his WCK from Yik Kam?

[desertwingchun2]

"Not sure if you meant to agree with the mistatement quoted, but to clarify, it should read : Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage." - RR

Hi Rene - Thank's but this "clarification" isn't really that helpfull. With all due respect - even after all Hendrick's posts all I see is that in Hendrick's family they have only one form and in his WC he identifies heavily with the Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang.

To say all WC is from Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang just doesn't add up. All I've read from Hendrick are ubiquitous statements that basically equate to "this sounds like it could be this so it must be".

IMO Wing Chun was created through a synthesis of arts and a new way of looking at things. I've heard many things from Southern Hand masters that hold parallels to Wing Chun. Jim's comments on Southern Mantis as well hold parallels. Wing Chun is much more than flowery words and postures from ancient systems.

I've seen a few sets with a stationary, "high horse" posture and feet shoulder width apart. These sets procede to extend the left hand with the palm toward the sky. Are these sets also to pay hommage to 12 Zhuang as their mother system?

Books on 12 Zhuang, books on Hung Mun, books on Fujian White Crane, books on top of books on top of books .... come on, man !!
There are great maxims on learning from books.

So thanks but, I think Rolling_Hand had it right with his summation. (Actually both of them)

I am of the mind to continue sharing yours, Rolling_Hand's and others scepticism on Hendrick's origination theory of Wing Chun.

-David

P.S. To say that the two middle sections of Yik Kam's (Hendrick's) SLT is analogous to Chum Kiu/Biu Jee is a more forthcoming answer than "it's in there". Allow me to redirect you to dictionary.com once more ...

Analogous - anal·o·gous 1 : showing an analogy or a likeness that permits one to draw an analogy

analogy - anal·o·gy
1 : inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will prob. agree in others.
2 a : resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike : SIMILARITY
b : comparison based on such resemblance

Simply stated, if its analogous it's not the same. Ergo, as demonstrated by your clarification, we see that Chum Kiu and Biu Jee are not "in there". So the question remains where is Hendrick's Chum Kiu and Biu Jee ??

[Jim Roselando]

Roger and David,

Hello David,


Simply stated, if its analogous it's not the same. Ergo, as demonstrated by your clarification, we see that Chum Kiu and Biu Jee are not "in there". So the question remains where is Hendrick's Chum Kiu and Biu Jee ??

No need to repeat this answer. Read above as to what was said to Roger and repeated in the past.

To say all WC is from Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang just doesn't add up. All I've read from Hendrick are ubiquitous statements that basically equate to "this sounds like it could be this so it must be".

Have you ever seen Fukien Crane? Nobody was there 150 years ago! So, all we can do is compare, discuss, link, compare some more and go with what is more likely than less likely. The other thing is if WC was passed onto the Red Boat people and different lineages stemming from the Red Boat remain incredibly similar then that should say something. Leung Jan's teaching in Koo Lo, Yuen Kay San's teaching and the Cho families teaching are very similar so if more than one lineage from the Red Boat are so similar then perhaps what was practiced on the Red Boat was very similar at one point.

IMO Wing Chun was created through a synthesis of arts and a new way of looking at things. I've heard many things from Southern Hand masters that hold parallels to Wing Chun. Jim's comments on Southern Mantis as well hold parallels. Wing Chun is much more than flowery words and postures from ancient systems.

Very true! Most South Fist has a lot of similarity but then people do not just come up with new stuff out of the blue. Even if people start thinking they want to develop something new they still need to make the changes and without the help from someone with different knowledge they will most likely not come up with something so different in mechanics/soft jing. Plus! these south fists arts were new ways of thinking and applying. Mantis is only 150 years old or so. Crane a bit older. Bak Mei and Dragon cannot be found before the late 1800's. All their stories state that they wer the new and effective Kung Fu that was meant to be learned in a shorter time period.

I've seen a few sets with a stationary, "high horse" posture and feet shoulder width apart. These sets procede to extend the left hand with the palm toward the sky. Are these sets also to pay hommage to 12 Zhuang as their mother system?

If i showed you many of the Mantis skills you would think it was some weird WC. Plus! its not so different form some Crane just a bit more fluid. How many of these arts actually have a history without the typical BS in it??? How many link to the fabled 5? So, some real research and open minded thinking can help sort thru the mysterious dreamy histories and link something more logical.


Ok! Lets put all this stuff to rest for a second and think about this question!

Q) If WC was a new way of thinking, and a new high development from Shaolin, how do you feel they went from the typical harder breathing and contraction of muscle on contact to the softer more natural breathing without needing to contract the muscles as WC does?

Do you feel they come up with it on their own?

Do you feel they pooled their knowledge and come up with it combined?

Do you think there is a slight chance that someone had some other knowledge may have had input to re-design the core make up of their boxing or something else?


Guys,

This is not religion or anything life saving. Its just history! We should look at it with open minds and think about different possibilities. I know everyone wants to be the original, or the secret art of Shaolin as it sounds so cool, but we all know most histories are full or BS (and some truth) so lets work together and share with open minds.

You know! One of the basic concepts of the earliest stages of WCK is "Sung"! It seems all this tension people have shows they have not grasped the Sung concept of letting go. Lets relax the mind so it can be in a tranquil state and absorb with is coming at you! That includes others views/opinions! I think we should all do some more Siu Lin Tau.


Regards,

[yuanfen]

desertwingchun2 sez (echoing the more rude troll): So the question remains where is Hendrick's Chum Kiu and Biu Jee ??
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hendrik brings out many intriguing points- they are not connected yet for me- but they are more intriguing than dogmatism on Shaolin.
Much TCMA has that primeval cry of "Shaolin"- which has many meanings- a specific place., an idea. a myth..which one... northern, southern?

new remains of Buddhist temples show up from time to time.There are several different shaolins....Canton was once the home of shaolin too in the development of southern Chan and probaly had a relevant temple at one time. Temple destruction and burning were common in China's long histoy.There is much that we dont know and its still too early to have a definitive history.

However, the focus on Hendrik's supposed absence of chum kiu and biu jee is misplaced. Three points:

1. as Hendrik himself points out wong kew kit(sp?) in his web site
is mixing different things up as Hendrik himself agrees-but it is different from Hendrik's thesis.

2. I withold judgement till I see Hendrik's form.... which I have not seen. I do think that there are some mixed up kung fu in southeast asia. Mixing in hung gar, taichi etc...

3. But importantly slt, chum kiu and biu jee at an advanced level can become interconnected into one integrated form! Different chapters of a crucial text! In the Ip Man tradition(IMO) the chapters are logically placed in sequence keeping principles and their links in mind.

[Rolling_Hand]

Yuanfen wrote:

2. I withold judgement till I see Hendrik's form.... which I have not seen. I do think that there are some mixed up kung fu in southeast asia. Mixing in hung gar, taichi etc...

--------------------------------------------------

Agreed!

When will Hendrik show his complete Emie SLT here?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand


Agreed!

When will Hendrik show his complete Emie SLT here?



when Rolling Hand and David both proof that they both are not the cover up or covert spy of Qing who is trying to disturb the Mung Mun brothers of red boat opera in the name of Shao Lin :D

For Roger and David,
Evidents of DNA, Platform, the exact ancestors legacy up to red boat...and full kuen kuit of your set are needed to be audiance.
otherwise who can we all from Red Boat know you are not spy of Qing?
:D

[yuanfen]

Jim- Chinese "history" is not horseXXXX- just different ways to tell stories....goes for western histories too- different historiographies-different capsulaization of impressions of reality..

Gee Shim the person cannot be at the temple burning and the boat in the same life time -true. But in translation and oral traditions--- it is not always easy to distinguish between individuals and metaphors.

I was struck by the discovery once ...
many translations once said that the Boddhidharma crossed the Yangste ona "reed"-a preposterous assertion. Later it was pointed out that the translation could be a "reed boat" and sure enough there were reed boats to cross the Yangste.


BTW- the 3 hand forms are linked and IMO can be regarded as one text or form... but Chapter 2 wont make sense until one learns chapter 1 well.... stand well before walking etc.

Ignore the troll. Dont feed the troll.

[Phenix]

Hi Jim, Joy, Rene, Tom.....

Check this out about Shao Lin legend...

Some one probably can translate for us...

http://www.geocities.com/quan_fa/shaolin.html


is there a Southern Shao Lin? is the southern Shao LIn has anything to do with the friction Evergreen.... and the Xilu Tale....
is the Shao lin DNA same with WCK DNA?... is CheeSim a good guy or bad guy in the friction Evergreen?


See for yourself. See how the historians say?


And then may be we can stop to import Pokemon into real life....

[desertwingchun2]

Hi Jim -

No need to repeat this answer. Read above as to what was said to Roger and repeated in the past. JR

Absolutly agree! Please don't repeat "it's in there" because like Rene pointed out it's not!

Have you ever seen Fukien Crane? - JR

Nothing but stills. Heard some kuen kuits though. They sound similar to Wing Chun but the question I asked you and my Sihing sounded similar as well didn't it? But they had different meaning and different ways of thinking. Even though the question sounded the same looked the same etc ... It had different "DNA" each time.

Leung Jan's teaching in Koo Lo, Yuen Kay San's teaching and the Cho families teaching are very similar so if more than one lineage from the Red Boat are so similar then perhaps what was practiced on the Red Boat was very similar at one point. - JR

Wing Chun was definetly on the Red Boats.

Most South Fist has a lot of similarity but then people do not just come up with new stuff out of the blue. Even if people start thinking they want to develop something new they still need to make the changes and without the help from someone with different knowledge they will most likely not come up with something so different in mechanics/soft jing.- JR

Excellent thinking!! Let me ask you this - How long has the study of areonautics been around? Lots of new ways of thinking. So why are the final bidders Lockheed and Boeing?

Plus! these south fists arts were new ways of thinking and applying. - JR

Right!! To what depths would the collaborations go at such an exciting time?? Learning, studying, refining is invigorating!!

Q) If WC was a new way of thinking, and a new high development from Shaolin, how do you feel they went from the typical harder breathing and contraction of muscle on contact to the softer more natural breathing without needing to contract the muscles as WC does? - JR

When looking to be innovative it makes sense to go back to the basics and deal with the true nature of things. All things. More specifically Time, Space and Energy. Of course paramount is the relationship to human structures. Contrary to Hendrick's assumption, when understood and applied there is no separation and that's truth.

Do you feel they come up with it on their own?
Do you feel they pooled their knowledge and come up with it combined? - JR

I don't understand your question. I gave my opinion regarding WC being a synthesis of arts. Am I missing something?

Do you think there is a slight chance that someone had some other knowledge may have had input to re-design the core make up of their boxing or something else?

Who is the they in question? Who's boxing skills core? Much knowledge led to the design of Wing Chun. The way I see Wing Chun is analogous to the new F-35.

Thanks for the discussion.

FWIW - Everything here is tranquilo.

-David

[tparkerkfo]

Hendrik,

I am not sure why Gee Shim is getting more popular. In many wing chun stories he transmitted the pole form. In others, he was the sole creator. Yet, we have little evidence that he ever lived and that the southern temple ever existed. It may have, but even the "professionals" are not sure. But if we are to look at Gee Shim, then we need to look at sources outside of wing chun.

Joy spoke about the oral traditions if chinese martial arts. I think there could be some truths in it. And I also think there are great holes. We can barely say what happend 50 years ago. How do we know what happened 200+ years ago? Yip Man's life and teaching is shrouded in mystery, but we know the intent of the founders and even the exact hall that wing chun was created in. I think there are even those that share the dialog. History always has a way of evolving over time. Did George Washington tell a lie and did he cut down a cherry tree?

The funny thing is no one knows the location of the southern temple. It is NOT in any local documents or records, unlike the northern temple. It simply "vanished". Mix this with the seemingly identical stories of the northern and southern temples. LOL. People can't even get the temples stories straight. Was Bak Mei and Ng Mui in the northern or southern Temple? I have heard both. Were did Ng Mui go after she fled the destroyed temple? See went to the white crane temple, or Ermei. Were is the southern temple supposedly located? Fuiken. That right there supports the Ermie and White crane theory to some degree.

I am not sure why people are scared to look into the truth, or to explore only one version of it. We have several interesting stories and we should start to lay it out and see where it goes. There are a lot of interesting things to note. Wing Chun does have things in common with white crane, Southern Mantis, Leung Ying. There seems to be some similiarities with Hung Gar, but I don't think it is that much. Certainly not in principles, structure, and power generation.Yet wing chun is completly unique to every other common art. Is it a blend from a natural evolution? Is it synthesized to beat all the other arts? Can we really ever know?

My prediction. People will not really care to see or explore the truth. Rather they will cling on to little shreds of oral tradition as if they are gospel, dispite historical inacruacies and contradictions in other legends. People will continue to bash others and conduct Ad Hominen attacks rather than discuss the points at hand. Troll will be trolls. Others will Screen silently into the night.

Tom
________
Wiki vaporizer (http://vaporizerwiki.com)

[FIRE HAWK]

In the Leung Ting book Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun there is a style that looks like Wing Chun that comes from Leung Lan Kwai called Fut Chang Buddhist Palms maybe this style Fut Chang Buddhist Palms is one of the styles that Wing Chun comes from ?

[Rolling_Hand]

<<"Not sure if you meant to agree with the mistatement quoted, but to clarify, it should read : Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage." - RR

Hi Rene - Thank's but this "clarification" isn't really that helpfull. With all due respect - even after all Hendrick's posts all I see is that in Hendrick's family they have only one form and in his WC he identifies heavily with the Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang. >>David

**David, please allow me to say thank You. You work hard to make others to see your points.

<<To say all WC is from Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang just doesn't add up. All I've read from Hendrick are ubiquitous statements that basically equate to "this sounds like it could be this so it must be".>>David

**I was born in Fatshan. I had seen many styles of WCK in China. Our WCK ancestors should be the same, but the practioners - Yiu Kay, WSL, William Cheung, Garrett Gee, they are different. Understanding the subtle distinction gives one the advantages to appreciate the art of WCK. As for Hendrik's Cho family art(Emie 12 Zheung + White Crane). Evidently, a certain someone needs reminding, WCK is WCK, Emie is Emie. Sometimes You'd like to believe that people know better than to pull a fast one.

http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/index.php?id=63

<<IMO Wing Chun was created through a synthesis of arts and a new way of looking at things. I've heard many things from Southern Hand masters that hold parallels to Wing Chun. Jim's comments on Southern Mantis as well hold parallels. Wing Chun is much more than flowery words and postures from ancient systems.>>Daivd

**Some of my own consins are also Pak-Mei and Mantis practioners in Fatshan. IMO, WCK is WCK, not like other Southern Kung-Fu.

<<I've seen a few sets with a stationary, "high horse" posture and feet shoulder width apart. These sets procede to extend the left hand with the palm toward the sky. Are these sets also to pay hommage to 12 Zhuang as their mother system? >>David

**A donkey cannot be a horse, they're different DNA.

<<Books on 12 Zhuang, books on Hung Mun, books on Fujian White Crane, books on top of books on top of books .... come on, man !!
There are great maxims on learning from books.>>David

**LOL, you thought you'd seen the last of certain someone. Just give this person 2 mims & 2 seconds, he'd post another so-called "SLT-blab blab blab-what do you think?".

<<So thanks but, I think Rolling_Hand had it right with his summation. (Actually both of them)>>David

**Fresh air.

<<I am of the mind to continue sharing yours, Rolling_Hand's and others scepticism on Hendrick's origination theory of Wing Chun.>>David

**Sometimes, when WCK doesn't work according to expectations, please don't rush to say anything bad about anybody, especially about our Shaolin ancestors.

<<Simply stated, if its analogous it's not the same. Ergo, as demonstrated by your clarification, we see that Chum Kiu and Biu Jee are not "in there". So the question remains where is Hendrick's Chum Kiu and Biu Jee ??>>David

**Yeah, someone also said "Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage."
After reading this, I would like to ask this expert a question - "Did you actaully learn this story from Wong Wah-Bo or Hendrik?".
Then, when and where and how did Wong Wah-Bo learn his WCK from Yik Kam? Or, Is this just another assumption of a false theory?

Roger Rollinghand

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand


**I was born in Fatshan. I had seen many styles of WCK in China. Our WCK ancestors should be the same, but the practioners - Yiu Kay, WSL, William Cheung, Garrett Gee, they are different.

Roger Rollinghand


Roger Rollinghand

Great to know you was born in Fatshan, you must know chinese well.


Since you english is better then me.

Why don't you translante what written here from the historians about Tein Tee Hui, Jee Shim, Shao Lin.....

http://www.geocities.com/quan_fa/shaolin.html

So David from the desert can know from you what is what in the eyes of Chinese historians...

And certainly, if you disagree from what the website post. You don't have to translate. However, then, you have to show evidents to convince the world your view.

Thanks in advance!

[desertwingchun2]

Rolling_Hand - Thank you for the kind words ...

Understanding the subtle distinction gives one the advantages to appreciate the art of WCK.- RH

Kinnda like being in the center of a circle and not seeing the differences but more understanding the similarities?

**A donkey cannot be a horse, they're different DNA.- RH

How true!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrick says:
... So David from the desert can know from you what is what in the eyes of Chinese historians...

Knowing no wine peddler yells "sour grapes!" ... Do you need a mint?

-David

[reneritchie]

David,

Apologies, I'm having a hard time communicating this. You learned the Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee of the Moy Yat line, correct? Have you ever done or seen them one after the other without stopping in between? Many schools, including Yip Man and Sum Nung do it this way from occasionally to often. If you do it this way, you end up with one, longer, progressive set. Does this mean you no longer have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee? No.

This is how Hendrik's lineage does the set, as one long sequence without stops in between. Dwelling on the names of the middle two sets/sections is staring at the finger.

I do have questions still about Hendrik's theory, of which you also seem skeptical. Do you share the same skepticism about the Shaolin theory?

Joy/Hendrik - Thanks for sharing. I think one of the problems you encounter, be it with Buddhism or WCK history, is relative knowledge and understanding. All your experience can be "Not!" 'd on the internet by someone who's never studied either, all your ideas discounted by someone who doesn't even understand them, and it all looks similar in the little text box.

[desertwingchun2]

Hi Rene - to address your questions ...

If you do it this way, you end up with one, longer, progressive set. Does this mean you no longer have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee? - RR

The way you chose to address the issue was very sly and skillfull. Your approach goes beyond a yes or no answer. Probably should dedicate a thread to this. it would be interesting hearing different views. For the sake of being brief I would say ... when making tortillas you have basically have water, lard and flour. (SNT, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee) Mix them together and you have masa. (the three forms linked) Cook them you have tortillas. (one SLT form) All the ingredients are in there but now its a tortilla. So if you sent it to the lab they will find traces of the original ingredients but they're no longer true to their nature. Does that make sense or just make you hungry?

Dwelling on the names of the middle two sets/sections is staring at the finger. - RR

Ok. But understanding the terms Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee is not.

I do have questions still about Hendrik's theory, of which you also seem skeptical. Do you share the same skepticism about the Shaolin theory? - RR

I'm skeptical about alot of things. Just my background I guess. But the more time I spend doing my own research the less skeptical I become. In no way do I share the same skepticism of the oral history of my family that I have of Hendrick's theory. Not by a long shot!

Talking about being skeptical, reminds me of conversations I've had with my sifu. When I started learning the HFYWC system I was very skeptical not unlike some here on this forum. I looked very hard for inconsistantcies in the training meathodology, marketing hooks or anything where I could say "ok that's the angle". To date I have yet to find one. For me it reaffirms that I made the right decision regarding my Wing Chun journey. It also makes me very appreciative of Master Gee's efforts to bring Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun to the public.

..... I think one of the problems you encounter, be it with Buddhism or WCK history, is relative knowledge and understanding. All your experience can be "Not!" 'd on the internet by someone who's never studied either, all your ideas discounted by someone who doesn't even understand them, and it all looks similar in the little text box. - RR

In your above quote, add WCK systems after "Buddhism or WCK history" and you will be preaching to the choir.

Thanks for the discussion

-David

[tparkerkfo]

Hi David,

Hmmmm Tortilla's. mmmmm. Now, I wont way my wing chun is better than yours, but I will say my Grandma's Tortilla's are better than your! ; ). Ohh how I miss a fresh batch of home made tortillas. LOL.

Anyways, back to the point. I think you analogy is a good one. Take One part Wing Chun and a pinch of boxing and you get JKD. Neither wing chun nor boxing, but a mix of the two. Kind of like mixing up the lard, flour, and water. However, who said Yik Kam sets are mixed all up like a tortilla? I say the sets, have you? The sets are very distinct. I can not recall the sequences, but many are very close with a different flavor to the other sets I have seen in various wing chun families. The Siu Nim Tao section is first. Then comes the Chum Kiu. Last is Biu Jee type sections. So it is not a hodge podge mix, but a linkage. I think this would be analagous to placing the butter between the water and lard.

I am not sure why this is even a debate. Yik Kam is a verifiable branch of wing chun with several branches. It has a history and is fairly well known. The sets follow logically as other wing chun sets do. Things that are not supposed to be there are not.

Just my thoughts
Tom
________
Ebony Oral Creampie (http://www.****tube.com/video/31749/ebony-girlfriend-gets-an-oral-creampie)

[Savi]

Hey guys! Weekend's over and I am slowly catching up with the posts on this thread. Congrats to those at Meng's of AZ who have passed their test. You all did very well.

David, your last post here has excellent points! You and I are on the same page. I think I will have some tortillas for lunch today! Now that I think about it, I haven't had those in a while...

Two things can happen:

1) a 'blending' of information can lose quality and lack complete understanding:

A. (SNT/SLT + CK + BJ) = (SNT/SLT), OR....


2) a 'blending' of information can strengthen quality and enhance understanding:

A. (SNT + SLT) = CK, then...

B. (SNT/SLT + CK) = BJ, and then...

C. (SNT/SLT + CK + BJ) = weapons, AND THEENNNN...

D. (SNT/SLT + CK + BJ + weapons) = complete fighting system, ultimately coming to...

E. (SNT/SLT + CK + BJ + weapons) x (combat + health + philo) = complete system :)

The platforms of SNT/SLT, CK, BJ seem to have their own philosophies and ideas per lineage. What end result each approach wields will allow one to determine if they are of the #1 or #2 variety.

I guess no one has read the Cheung Ng article yet? Maybe maybe not, but I hope it helped those who did read it, yo.

[t_niehoff]

Savi,

You use the terms "complete understanding" and "complete system" in your latest post. Would you mind defining what you mean by "complete"? Have you met anyone with this "complete" understanding of WCK? And why isn't it that they have come forward? ;) TN

You also write "the platforms of SNT/SLT, CK, BJ seem to have their own philosophies and ideas per lineage." From my pespective, lineage has nothing to do with it -- WCK is WCK, it is individuals that have varying levels of understanding and skill. Lineage is just a boat to get one across the river; we don't carry the boat on our back after we get to the other side. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Does that make sense or just make you hungry?

LOL! It does, but it's a false analogy. Performing Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee one after the other is not mixing ingredients, it is placing one ingredient after the other (as skilled chefs will often do). Your analogy would only be appropriate if the individual motions within the set were being mixed together. Do you understand the difference, or am I merely increasing your hunger? LOL!

Also, please keep in mind its been suggested by many people over the years (I believe Yip Chun at one point as well), that the set was originally one longer set with three sections, and someone (often pointed to Wong Wah-Bo) split them into three separate sets as part of the teaching process.

As any good student of WCK would tell you, however, its still the finger and not the moon. You should be able to do all your sets one after the other without pause, and be able to do every movement separate and distinct.


Ok. But understanding the terms Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee is not.

Saam Pai Fut is often used for the Tan/Wu/Fuk section in Siu Lien Tao, but it is prepended and appended by other sections, does this mean if you actually train the whole Siu Lien Tao, you have "lost" Saam Pai Fut, or that you don't understand the term? Do you see now why it's not a question? Or am I just making you want to pray?


In no way do I share the same skepticism of the oral history of my family that I have of Hendrick's theory. Not by a long shot!

That's interesting in that Hendrik's theory is supported by independant historical information while the Shaolin theory is more often contradicted by it. Do you think if they were reversed (Hendrik espoused the Shaolin theory and yours the Emei/Fujian one) you would more likely believe Hendrik?


To date I have yet to find one.

LOL! Then, no disrespect, but you're either not trying very hard, or you're deliberately ignoring them. *EVERYTHING*, every story, every legend, every factual history has problems. Every one. We've pointed out dozens in the Shaolin theory over the years (as others have pointed out in mine, in Hendrik's, in others). Heck, even relatively recent North American history has disagreement, has problems. IMHO, its the same as training. If you pretend not to have problem areas, you won't get as far as if you recognize them and work at it, either finding answers to improve them, or finding a different approach that doesn't have them. Here's an example. Originally, one problem with the Tan Sao Ng theory was that it was chronologically impossible. Tan Sao Ng is 1730ish couldn't directly teach Wong Wah-Bo et. al. in the 1850s as was claimed. Now, that time has been filled in with several more generations. A potential solution to the problem (which, btw, back then, no one claimed was a problem ;).

Hi Tom,


I am not sure why this is even a debate.

I'm kind of shaking my head to. I hope its just an honest misunderstanding, now hopefully made clearer.


Yik Kam is a verifiable branch of wing chun with several branches.

Yup, and you can find the same Siu Lien Tao learned by Hendrik from Cho Hung Hoi trained in China by descendants of Cho Chuen. Not every branch can show their roots and verify their material, which makes it kinda ironic to shift the focus thataway.

Hi Savi,


Congrats to those at Meng's of AZ who have passed their test.

Like belt ranking tests? If so, congrats. Any cool war stories? Anyone blitz through 10 fights, drop down for Hindu squats, then roar a Goldberg-ian, "Who's next?" 8)


I guess no one has read the Cheung Ng article yet? Maybe maybe not, but I hope it helped those who did read it, yo.

If its the one that was published a year or two ago, read it at the time. Has it been updated?

[reneritchie]

BTW - Cheers to Hendrik for politely and effectively answering the many (even disengenuous) questions on Yik Kam/Cho Ga. Rather than trying to cloud the issues with personal attacks, rather than recruiting 100 young Cho's to assault the message board, rather than claim secrets, yet-to-be-revealed factoids, or screech about disrespect, he's repeatedly provided more, solid, independantly verifiable information. Not only does that elevate the current discussion, it provides a great example that hopefully others will follow.

[reneritchie]

P.S. Rene,I guess you're a Hendrik supporter, abit like me being a VTM supporter

Nope, I'm a WCK supporter. I've put up a mini-site for Hendrik, much as I have for David Peterson, Andreas Hoffmann, and others since they're kind enough to share, and the least I can do is help get their sharing out.

The difference is, that my support isn't blind. If tomorrow, one of them came out with some outlandish claim about being the only true complete traditional authentic super secret branch of WCK descended from Adam, and started insulting everyone else all the while providing not one shred of supporting evidence, I'd, well, no longer be a supporter. ;)

BTW - In hopes of keeping with the moderators previous repeated requests, and staying on topic, this will be my last reply to you on the matter.

[reneritchie]

TN - Sometimes it feels like I'm being asked to write books for people! LOL!

[desertwingchun2]

Hi Tom - Actually my nana has passed away. Man do i miss her and her cooking. But I bet my mom's tortilla's are better than your Nana's !!!!!!!! LOL :D

With regards to analogies, by thier very nature they are not the same as to the object being subjected to the analogy. Analogies are used to illustrate a similarity between objects not to prove them the same.

Yik Kam is a verifiable branch of wing chun with several branches. - Tom

I never called into question the validity of Yik Kam WC.

Anyways hope you get some fresh tortillas soon and but afterwards, better get in a lot of WC training!!! :D


Savi - Thanks for the kind words ... Go to Los Picos they got the good grub !!! If Alma's there say hi for me ....


Hi Rene - Do you have tortillas in Canada??

Performing Siu Lien Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee one after the other is not mixing ingredients

Um ... I know I said it was masa

Your analogy would only be appropriate if the individual motions within the set were being mixed together. Do you understand the difference, or am I merely increasing your hunger? LOL! - RR

Considering the context, my analogy is appropriate. No need to try and explain to me what I meant. Yes i do understand the difference but you cannot. Increasing my hunger for what?? Masa ?? Que gacho, hombre!

Also, please keep in mind its been suggested ... many people ... someone .... - RR

Ok Rene I'll do that :rolleyes:

You should be able to do all your sets one after the other without pause, and be able to do every movement separate and distinct. - RR

Ok ... I never said anyone shouldn't ....

Saam Pai Fut is often used for the Tan/Wu/Fuk section in Siu Lien Tao, but it is prepended and appended by other sections, does this mean if you actually train the whole Siu Lien Tao, you have "lost" Saam Pai Fut, or that you don't understand the term? Do you see now why it's not a question? Or am I just making you want to pray?

Oh man, are joking with me??? If not, you really don't get it do you?? Pray for what?? More masa??

That's interesting in that Hendrik's theory is supported by independant historical information while the Shaolin theory is more often contradicted by it. - RR

Rene, you make some grandious sponge assumptions! I say sponge because after you absorb stuff there are still holes.

Do you think if they were reversed (Hendrik espoused the Shaolin theory and yours the Emei/Fujian one) you would more likely believe Hendrik? - RR

I know Hendrick has a lot of facts. He's read a lot of books. I have no problem with his facts. However, I don't believe his opinion that Ermei 12 Zhuang and Fujian White Crane is the mother of all Wing Chun!!

LOL! Then, no disrespect, but you're either not trying very hard, or you're deliberately ignoring them. *EVERYTHING*, every story, every legend, every factual history has problems. - RR

Did you read what I wrote? Was I talking about Shaolin history??Why are you trying to be sly? The quote you posted is taken out of context. Is that how you are choosing to discuss things?

Now I'm shaking my head at your misunderstandings. In the future if you're not clear on any of my posts just ask me what I meant. That will make communication a lot easier.

Did you have any questions with the last part of my post? Here it is just in case:

..... I think one of the problems you encounter, be it with Buddhism or WCK history, is relative knowledge and understanding. All your experience can be "Not!" 'd on the internet by someone who's never studied either, all your ideas discounted by someone who doesn't even understand them, and it all looks similar in the little text box. - RR

In your above quote, add WCK systems after "Buddhism or WCK history" and you will be preaching to the choir. - DWC2

-David

[reneritchie]

Hi David,

LOL, you think I'm misunderstanding, and you think I am, how do we resolve this?

Let me give it a try:


Do you have tortillas in Canada??

Of course!


Um ... I know I said it was masa


Mix them together and you have masa. (the three forms linked) Cook them you have tortillas. (one SLT form)

"mix" and "link" are not the same thing, that where the analogy falls apart (no pun intended). "mix" would involve scattering the grains of each set with the grains of the others, which has not happened in the case of the three sets, they're simply linked one after the other. In your analogy, you'd be eating each ingrediant one after the other, not mixing them, and certainly not cooking them. Not as tasty as a tortilla, to be sure ;)


No need to try and explain to me what I meant.

Communication involves not just your meaning, but the meaning drawn by the reader. Discussion helps us both figure out the other better.


Que gacho, hombre!

You're begging me to pull out the French, mon ami! ;)


Ok Rene I'll do that

If you're not interested in sincere discussion, please let me know and I won't invest my time in it either. Otherwise, please consider that I felt the point important in the context, since if the theory is valid (that the set was once one set called Siu Lien Tao and someone, possibly Wong Wah-Bo broke it apart into three separate sets, it makes a lot of the "where's the chum kiu & biu jee" BS moot).


Ok ... I never said anyone shouldn't ....

Cool, cause the point was if someone did, would you ask them where Chum Kiu or Biu Jee was? Of course not, you'd have just seen them.


Oh man, are joking with me??? If not, you really don't get it do you?? Pray for what?? More masa??

Based on your response, I didn't think you were "getting it" and so I tried again to reframe my point. Again, if you'e not interested, let me know, and I won't bother in the future. If you are interested, keeping in mind I've been at this a while and been around, please consider that the distinction I'm trying to draw may have some value.


Rene, you make some grandious sponge assumptions! I say sponge because after you absorb stuff there are still holes.

That was cheap. Is that really the direction you find most valuable to take this? If not, again please re-consider my point.


I know Hendrick has a lot of facts. He's read a lot of books. I have no problem with his facts. However, I don't believe his opinion that Ermei 12 Zhuang and Fujian White Crane is the mother of all Wing Chun!!

LOL! Sometimes I get the feeling I'm discussing this with people beyond this board and "he's read a lot of books" is the latest boiler-plate retort! LOL! What's the alternative to having "read a lot of books" and "having a lot of facts", having read none and having none? Isn't it a good thing to do research and be informed? Hendrik is also Chinese and has been many times to China and South East Asia, and spent time hands-on while there as well. He's also been researching this topic for roughly 30 years, before some of us were born, before some of our sifu/sigungs even began practicing the art. While I'm not yet convinced as to his theory, he has done *far* more than most, and I will respect him, his generosity in sharing (especially since he's not offering a tape series, expanding a set of schools, etc.) what is in many ways his life's work. He's earned his knowledge first hand, spent decades honing his skill, and he's still nice and polite when relative beginners attack him and his lineage without any foundation. Agree or disagree, would that there were more like him around here.


However, I don't believe his opinion that Ermei 12 Zhuang and Fujian White Crane is the mother of all Wing Chun!!

Why? I know my problems with it, as I know my problems with the Shaolin origin theory, but what specifically makes you not believe it? And do you at least believe it might even be *remotely* possible? (say 1% chance?)


Did you read what I wrote? Was I talking about Shaolin history??Why are you trying to be sly? The quote you posted is taken out of context. Is that how you are choosing to discuss things?

I used the term because, as I've mentioned to Savi, if I say "HFY-theory" and I disagree with it, it seems to get taken as an attack on all things HFY and then the conversation quickly devolves. If it helps, replace the word "Shaolin Theory" in that context, and re-consider what I wrote. And I'm not being sly or out of context, I've just reached my limit for political BS and am avoiding it like the plague. So yes, I'm choosing to discuss things as non-personally, not politically, a non-HFY or any other labelled way possible. Apologies for trying to stay productive.


Did you have any questions with the last part of my post? Here it is just in case:

No, but then everyone and their sibak thinks they're a 10%'er.

[desertwingchun2]

Hello again Rene,

LOL, you think I'm misunderstanding, and you think I am, how do we resolve this?- RR

I understand what you're saying. The problem is you cannot challenge the validity of my analogy. If I said "each section is an igredient" well that is easily challenged. But thats not what I said. I also understand the "mix" vs. "link" but I don't think the whole analogy falls apart.

So on this one agree to disagree. It's that easy.

As you know, I have no problem with disagreement. Just let's keep it constructive.

.... consider that I felt the point important in the context, since if the theory is valid (that the set was once one set called Siu Lien Tao and someone, possibly Wong Wah-Bo broke it apart into three separate sets, it makes a lot of the "where's the chum kiu & biu jee" BS moot).- RR

I did consider that. Consideration is subjective. You must also consider that, IME, SLT has different connotations. IMO a form called SLT could not contain Chum Kiu/Biu Jee. Well it could but then that creates a bunch of questions. In the SLT of Yik Kam what are the second and third section called?

Cool, cause the point was if someone did, would you ask them where Chum Kiu or Biu Jee was? Of course not, you'd have just seen them. - RR

Rene you can't play both sides of the fence,man!

Based on your response, I didn't think you were "getting it" and so I tried again to reframe my point.- RR

I don't think that's what you were trying to do Rene. You're too intelligent to use comparisons like that as simple illustrations.

And I'm not being sly or out of context, I've just reached my limit for political BS and am avoiding it like the plague. -RR

LOL !!! Just admit you took it out of context! There was nothing political in my statement. If you view it as such thats on you. I was sharing a personal experience about the system I chose to train in. You fully took one sentence from my comment and applied it to an entirely seperate issue. If thats not out of context what is???

And if you are avoiding politics like the plague why take one sentence and manipulate it's context like you did?

No, but then everyone and their sibak thinks they're a 10%'er.-RR

Right .... Productive discourse ....

-David

[tparkerkfo]

David- In didn't mean to imply that you were denying Yik Kam wing chun validity. But it seems that several people are questioning Hendrik's theories by attacking him or his wing chun. I am not sure how or why it is important how they do their form. But as Rene is pointing out, it is not a mixed up jumbled form. It is as precise as the Yip Man forms. They are simply done in succesion if it helps you to understand it better.

Rene- Has any one researched Tan Sau Ng? He is a real figure as we all know. Pan Nam pointed out his appearance in offical records. I think several opera troupes have stories of him, which we should not discount if we are pointing to stories. I did a search a while back on Tan Sau Ng and came up with some interesting stuff. Anyways, I think your dates are close and it would be near impossible for him to teach the red boat members that we are aware of. If I rememeber correctly what Gee sifu and some of the museum folks said, Tan Sau Ng trained other people, not Wong Wah Bo and such. Is this the current throry now?

Tom
________
VAPIR ONE V5.0 REVIEW (http://vaporizer.org/reviews)

[Phenix]

Hello Tom,


There is a saying in Buddhism.
That, there always are false profets who always try to destroy Surangama Sutra.

Why? because these pretenders do not like people to find out who they are. In Surangama sutra, there are 52 types of false Saint like that.... And they scare when the truth comes out they will be vanishing similar to the Dracula meeting the Sun Light.

However, they fail.
Because Surangama means the un destructable.

Sun has raised. The Spring has been secured. The darkness will be over soon.

As a story, for the so called buddhist who doesn't belive in it. well, we know who they are.....
:D

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Hendrik,

I am not so sure about the Buddhist teachings. I always appreciate some insight. I think human nature hasn't changed much over a millinium. I think the Buddhists wrestled with these topics as did the greeks as the formed the basics of logic. In any case, all I see is silly attacks and illogical statments.

My thoughts are much like Rene's. I think you and some others have presented some interesting data that is plausible. Other stories just don't add up. If we look at them with a critical eye, we can begin to unravel the mystery. I support more than one theory and discount others. That don't mean mine are right and others are wrong. I support your theory so far because it makes sense to me. I have met you and I like you and think you have some thing valuable to share. However, if you tell me Hsu Chi (sp?) created wing chun, I might have to discount your theory. LOL.

My thoughts are to expose all the theories clearly. Discuss the data that supports each theory and discuss the theory the discounts or contradicts the theory. Perhaps this would be a worth while activity. I am unemployed and would love to work on it if every one sent me a page or two writting of their theory. Then every one can send me the data that supports or discredits the opponents theory along with a source. We could do the postings here on this forum and I can post them on my, the VTM's, and Rene's website along with any one else. Then maybe we could start to unwrap this mess.

I think people are too entrenched in their family styles to challenge them. The funny thing is if a different school was accessable to them, many would adopt a different view. LOL. I think they call it enculteration. LOL.

Just some comments and thoughts,

Tom
________
Video review (http://videoreviews.org)

[yuanfen]

Tom sez:I am not so sure about the Buddhist teachings.

(Understandable))

I always appreciate some insight.

((!!!))

I think human nature hasn't changed much over a millinium.

((Really Tom- that is some gneralization- we would get lost in the Gobi desert trying to clarify that asserion))

I think the Buddhists wrestled with these topics as did the greeks as the formed the basics of logic.

((What does that mean--- there are many systems pf logic))

In any case, all I see is silly attacks and illogical statments.

(True))

My thoughts are much like Rene's. I think you and some others have presented some interesting data that is plausible. Other stories just don't add up. If we look at them with a critical eye, we can begin to unravel the mystery.

(( I like mysteries- but prefer doing wing chun. Hendrik has provided more info. than most of his detractors. But tracing martial arts history is a very murky task and is likely to remain so. The Emei connection sounds intriguing but not yet definitive.
More intriguing than knee jerk shouts of Shaolin. Partly because of my background- despite Hendrik's English (and mine) I have a good sense for his references to Chan epistemology and also the large Surangama Sutra. He loses me on his references to the Matrix and the like. I have not met him so I dont know what his form really looks like))


However, if you tell me Hsu Chi (sp?) created wing chun, I might have to discount your theory. LOL.

((better Hsu Chi than Brabara Walters, Roseanne, or Mama Cass))

Then maybe we could start to unwrap this mess.

((hahah- good luck- the Gobi desert again))

I think people are too entrenched in their family styles to challenge them.

((Lots of variations within families- look at Ip Man's family))


joy

[Phenix]

Hi Tom,


Sure Hsu Chi created WCK. LOL.:D


Thanks for sharing you heart. Appreciated.


You know, seriously. I don't really care for my theory or whose theory as soon as it makes sense to help me and everyone to live better.

name, lineage.... doesn't matter. The content that can help us be more balance, healty, and have a better life is most importanting.

Yik Kam is in TaiPing and Hung Mun. The Hung Mun code is there.. But then, I sometimes look at the Taiping as a cult. A cult that end up alots of people who belive in it dies..... In the name of GOD all sin was carried out. Do we want that? Ofcause not.


To be honest, there is much to translate into english. and some needs experience. only after one has experienced them, one can translate it properly without get trap into a chinese/english translation... But then, you need to be employed first. We all have to bring bread to the table.


Hendrik

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
(( I like mysteries- but prefer doing wing chun. Hendrik has provided more info. than most of his detractors. But tracing martial arts history is a very murky task and is likely to remain so. The Emei connection sounds intriguing but not yet definitive.
More intriguing than knee jerk shouts of Shaolin. Partly because of my background- despite Hendrik's English (and mine) I have a good sense for his references to Chan epistemology and also the large Surangama Sutra. He loses me on his references to the Matrix and the like. I have not met him so I dont know what his form really looks like))




Hey Joy,

LOL. ofcause we need Matrix right? ha ha ha

My form actually is not far different from your as soon as the Kundalini (let's use anything you can related to) is triggle.
But then my form will not be yours. because only me can do mine and you can do yours.

Certainly, the form comes with details description.....

Say there is a saying " Bil Jee is poison and use it in emergency" is in the second section of the YK SLT. The third section are about close range.....

But then, no big deal, everyone's form is original. Be it Ip Man's, YKS', Koo Loo.....

As the chinese saying, " Hero doesn't depend on DNA, the man has to work hard and self responsible on oneself".

For me, one cannot sell ancestors.

I once heard the MIT professor told me the Space travel Museum is just a Tomb. Space travel belongs to now and future. it is alive not dead and lying in tomb.


Museum doesnt turn me on. Technology does. Matrix does. TaiPing doesn't. the very lifely and energetic Hsu Chi does. And, the rigid fomulars for fighting don't. IMO.


for me, there is only art with/without life. original or the oldest doesn't matter. if people understand my bottom line. adding more steps.... in a set does nothing. if the set doesn't have life.


one doesn't do form. one just express oneself's capability with form.


Hendrik

[KPM]

I think Tom has made a wonderful suggestion. I hope people will take him up on his offer and send him the outline of their theories along with supporting evidence so he can lay them out side by side for consideration. This is such a long thread and I have limited time so I tend to lose track of the logic flow. Could someone at least please summarize Hendrik's theory and evidence in a reasonably short post? It has been spread out over the entire thread and for those of us that haven't been following the discussion since the beginning it is still a bit vague. Thanks!

Keith

[Phenix]

Hi Rene,

This world is strange.

People love to stick with oral story but question the writing legacy which comes with factual evidents.

People love to address subject similar to an expert disregard of having no understanding on the subject at all.




Tom,

Actually, I don't have a Theory. I just translate what has been found. and what have been recorded for past 100 year...
AS for other's theory, certainly it is respectable. However, with factual data , we still might call a hypothesis a partial theory not a factual data.

as for those without factual data at all, that is just speculation.

Now, how can a speculation be consider theory? It can't.

Further more, the question is why does one even needs the co exist of two sets of SLT and SNT?

If the teaching is soo original and secret and olderst as one claim. There should be a detail Kuen Kuit passed down with Legacy, family tree. If one cannot even show that then there is no substance. If one claim that family tree has to be secretive. Read this months' Kungfu magazine as an example. Look at the Taiwan Hung Mun, how come they can published thier material openly?

Certainly, people can disagree with me. However, since the Hung Mun at Taiping era has also being demostration at Dien Chun Dang and so Yik Kam's code or CLF's Code has no longer anti gorvenment effect but a part of history of the struggling of Chinese ancestors. So why can't be all of these to be make public and praise as hero for some? Doesn't make sense.

[captain]

speaking strictly in terms of appearance,why/how did
the chinese develop boxing forms that look/act the way
they do?however,the west went for the jab/hook style
we see in sports boxing.a rather enty level question i
know,but it makes me ponder.also!!!before i forget,all
brits buy combat this month,very heavy with wck!!!!and
on a tan sau,[left hand] when i bring my thumb in a tad,
my index finge curls slightly.not though,on my right???
am i gimped in some fashion.?

Russell.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Ok, lets see if this thread can continue....

[Rolling_Hand]

Sandman,

You see beyond the end and the begining.

Thumbs up!

Roger

[Rolling_Hand]

Hendrik wrote:

as for those without factual data at all, that is just speculation.

Now, how can a speculation be consider theory? It can't.

------------------------------------------------

Hendrik,

Someone suggests that "Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage."

Do you agree with this statement?

When and where and how did Wong Wah-Bo learn his WCK from Yik Kam? Or, Is this just another assumption of a false theory?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand


When and where and how did Wong Wah-Bo learn his WCK from Yik Kam? Or, Is this just another assumption of a false theory?



Since you are the one who post this above. why ask me?

May be you want to explain why do you create this speculation.
You must be playing your illogic game again. :D


By the way, since your English is better then me.

when will you translate that Shao Lin/ Hung Mun message from the Website to show all in the web what is written there?

You agree with the historians? you don't agree with the historian?
What is your reply? It is your turn to answer questions.


"Rolling Hand,


Still waiting for your DNA discussion or some thoughts on my original post/comparison. Any positive contributions would be appreciated. I attached another foto of which shows the WC structure and it looks a bit different from the so-called Shaolin arts in my eyes."

Remember this? we all still waiting for your DNA discussion.

[Rolling_Hand]

>>Since you are the one who post this above. why ask me?>>HS

**Design a "why ask me?" to keep your curiosity fit. What exercises would you include in your workout? You've made a claim. And you need to back up your claim and list your resources.

>>May be you want to explain why do you create this speculation.>>HS

**Someone suggests that "Emei 12 Zhuang + Fujian White Crane to Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tao, which contains 4 sections, the middle two being analogus to Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in the Wong Wah-Bo lineage."
It is a fair question, I think the underlying premise of trying to look at the differences and similarities between Wong Wah-Bo WCK and Yik Kam's family art is definitely the way to go.

>>You must be playing your illogic game again. >>HS

**What are you saying? Or are you playing a game? If you want to be taken seriously as a true researcher or historian, please give us what you have, not just give everybody some grandious sponge assumptions!

>>By the way, since your English is better then me.>>HS

**Oh well, my mom is a beautiful blonde from London.

>>when will you translate that Shao Lin/ Hung Mun message from the Website to show all in the web what is written there?>>HS

**Why? Is it because you don't trust yourself and your own history? The best thing for you to do is to think about your attempts to achieve balance in your life.

>>You agree with the historians? you don't agree with the historian?
What is your reply? It is your turn to answer questions.>>HS

**To understand others is to have knowledge; to understand oneself is to be illumined. To be always talking is against nature. For the same reason a hurricane never lasts a whole week.

>>"Rolling Hand,>>HS

**...and you must be Hendrik!

>>Still waiting for your DNA discussion or some thoughts on my original post/comparison. Any positive contributions would be appreciated. I attached another foto of which shows the WC structure and it looks a bit different from the so-called Shaolin arts in my eyes.">>HS

**LOL, Those that would gain what is under heaven by tampering with so-called DNA - I have seen that they do not succeed. All I have seen - you made some grandious sponge assumptions!

>>Remember this? we all still waiting for your DNA discussion.>>HS

**Beautiful springtime! I feel it in my bones, but I can't bring it to you.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


I was going to try an avoid the trolls but I cant let this one go.


Roger,


What makes you think Wong Wah Bo didn't know the same longer one set as Yik Kam?

What makes you think Wong Wah Bo wasn't the one who broke the longer one set into 3 shorter ones.

You mentioned you were from Futshan! Hendrik provided you a link so that you can read and translate the historical records of Hung Mun. Any info. you would like to share with us non-cninese readers?

Tisk tisk. 700 + and still going strong without one piece of your own info..


Regards,

[Geezer]

Rollinghand Wrote>

my mom is a beautiful blonde from London

I knew we had something in common!!!!!!!!! London;)

Sheldon

[Rolling_Hand]

Hi Jim,

Roger,


>>What makes you think Wong Wah Bo didn't know the same longer one set as Yik Kam? >>Jim

**Understanding the subtle distinction gives one the advantages to appreciate the art of WCK. As for Hendrik's Cho family art(Emie 12 Zheung + White Crane). Evidently, a certain someone needs reminding, WCK is WCK, Emie Kung fu is Emie Kung fu. Sometimes You'd like to believe that people know better than to pull a fast one.

Please judge for yourself about the Cho's family art.

http://www.dragonslist.com/kwoon/index.php?id=63

And the art of Wong Wah-Bo WCK.

http://www.wingchun.hk.com/

http://www.templewingchun.com/

>>What makes you think Wong Wah Bo wasn't the one who broke the longer one set into 3 shorter ones.>>Jim

**There are so many preceptions that they are beyond imagination. Not like Hendrik, I can't speak for other WCK lineages. Who stops talking in time nothing can harm. Wong Wah-Bo WCK is safe and secure.

>>You mentioned you were from Futshan! Hendrik provided you a link so that you can read and translate the historical records of Hung Mun. Any info. you would like to share with us non-cninese readers?>>Jim

** About Hendrik's link....nothing is new there, just gossips. When discipline begins to be natural, a part of you, it's very important to learn let go. For the kung-fu man, to understand others is to have knowledge, in other words, do kung-fu, not talk kung-fu.

>>Tisk tisk. 700 + and still going strong without one piece of your own info..>>Jim

**Think about the last time you listened to your inner voice. What did it say? To conquer others needs strength. You should go back to your training instead of telling other people what to do here....that now is time to have fun with yourself. You are your only master. Who else?

[Rolling_Hand]

I knew we had something in common!!!!!!!!! London

Sheldon

---------------------------------------------------------

Sheldon,

hahaha....London is my third home.

I will be in London at the end of this month!

Roger

[yuanfen]

feed the trolls
tuppence tuppence a bag.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
feed the trolls
tuppence tuppence a bag.

Joy,

You are correct .


Jim,

he is also doesn't know how to read.

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21215

[Jim Roselando]

Hendrik,Joy,Roger,


Hendrik and Joy,


Will take your advice and avoid the trolls after this final reply! What can I say? I love kids!


Roger,


The more you write the more you show your inner beauty.

This reply will use your logic and your logic only so take a look how funny your posts are to adults.

1) Since your logic is Emei is Emei and WC is WC then that would mean your precious Wong Wah Bo WC never developed from anything! It just came out of the blue but I guess you just appreciate his art and not his history since it states it came from Snake and Crane. Especially since Snake is Snake and Crane is Crane.

2) You post a link to a know eclectic version of the Yik Kam WC. Seeing how you dont like to follow the info. being presented, and use only what is known as not proper, why dont you look back at the foto's Hendrik posted to see what Yik Kam proper looks like. That way you wont waste time with nonsense. Wow! Looks just like Wong Wah Bo's WC! Who would have thought?

3) On a discussion board people share their own info. and discuss others. Hendrik does not speak for other lineages as you claim. We all discuss! Yet! Using you logic again! Since he, and others, discussed public info. for all to share and you say he is speaking for others then I guess we can say that about you since you cut and pasted from the Jee Shim info.. I guess that means you speak for Jee Shim now using your logic.

4) Whenever anyone asks you for any sort of input you state
your Mantra: Do Kung Fu/Dont Talk Kung Fu! With 708+ useless posts I can see how you dont follow your own beliefs. Whats good for the Goose is not good for the Rolling Hand I guess! Thats a lot of Talking Kung Fu even tho it hasnt contributed one ounce of positive info. for the WC community.


Feel no need to reply!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hey: http://www.shaolinkempo.com/

They use the name Shaolin. They talk about their Five Animals content.

Here's one of their forms:

ftp://www.shaolinkempo.com/videoclips/brown3.avi

Just a name...

(Dzu, no brushing up!)

[yuanfen]

shaolin kempo has it all!

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hey: http://www.shaolinkempo.com/

They use the name Shaolin. They talk about their Five Animals content.

Here's one of their forms:

ftp://www.shaolinkempo.com/videoclips/brown3.avi

Just a name...

Instead of grunting and loud breathing, the demo should have more animal sounds and more rolling on the ground.

That said, sometimes even Kempo can work. But, is it Shaolin?

[reneritchie]

Grendel - They say they're Shaolin, isn't that enough?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Grendel - They say they're Shaolin, isn't that enough?
It's enough for me, except I like seeing MAs with rolling on the ground and animal sounds for the entertainment value. :D We can't save the world from deception. We can only work on ourselves.

If only those monks in the past had copyrighted the term, we wouldn't be arguing the point today. :D So, in effect, the Shaolin monks' irresponsible treatment of intellectual rights has echoes down the ages.

Regards,