on wing chun and the blade russellsherry

[russellsherry]

hi guys as a begainer, in arnis i really like the defences, it teaches , when your unarmed and haveing a guy, with a blade, what does wing chun teach in the same situation a former teacher showed me the tan sau jam against the attacking blade and i did not like it back then and i would, not do that now how would you guys react russellsherry

[TjD]

guy with a blade, me unarmed?

RUN AWAY!

:D


if retreat is impossible, whats worked for me in the past (while practicing this) is i usually try to immobilize/control the arm with the blade (assuming they only have one). i grab that arm and hold on for dear life while kicking/kneeing and punching with my other hand. if i can strip the blade thats even better.

[Miles Teg]

My teacher demonstrated to us that there isnt anything you can really do against someone who is good with a knife. Anyone who know s how to use a knife will flick their wrist to either side to cut the wrist/arm of some one trying to defend.

he demonstrated this by thrusting a pen at us. When we tried to Pak or tan the attacking arm he would flick his wrist to the side losely demostrating that we would have been cut.

Im with TJD here. Run, give him all your money, offer him sexual fovours, whatever it takes.

[Neurotic]

My Sifu has had us run through a variety of knife defense/knife attack drills.

Yes - to reiterate. If faced with a knife, try ANYTHING before actually trying to fight them.

Having said that - WC can apply to knife fighting very easily.

1 - You must pass the blade. You cannot use a stopping motion (e.g. much like a lap sau to the inside of a hook) as (obviousl) the person with the knife can come down and cut you. So if the blade is going right to left across you, make sure your defense travels that way as well.

2 - It is almost impossible to grab a knife flying around, and keep it. If you go for control, you must distract first - eye strike, eye flick, shin kick, bicep bash.. something that will momentarily distract him from what he is doing. Then you can control (sometimes)

3. Use 2 hands at the same time - well DUH I hear some people say, but seriously, playing with knives, you (well have done, and do) forget about the other hand, and cocentrate soley on defense. Bad move. Just because you can't reach the opponent's body or head, doesn't mean you can't hurt them. Crack the back of the hand, the wrist, the elbow, the bicep, the tricep... given enough room, eye flick/claw, groin bash.. and the rest.
(Just a note - refer to comment 1 - pass the knife, and hit something with the other hand.. much like a crossing motion.)

4. Blind Side - this is an interesting one. Does the blind side move when someone has a knife, as the side without the knife is inherently weaker. Personally, I say it doesn't matter as long as you are not in the middle. Some may disagree. I say try it for yourself.

5. Whatever you do, don't stop moving your **** feet. He's got a knife. Come on. Do I need to explain this?

- Knife fighting works very well in WC when you start to apply the pronciples. Its just the dynamics of the situation change, as the opponent is now MUCH more dangerous than you are.
(hell most of what I stated above was just me reiterating the principles)

Hope that helps you think about it.

Neurotic

[Mr Chips]

Hell, i've tried to stab him several times with no result :D

The worst thing you can do is try and control the knife hand straight out (well, that's not the worst thing, the worst thing is jumping onto the knife) or stop it dead, that's just asking to be cut.

All the stuff neurotic suggested is pretty good so i'll only add that if you can improvise some protection or a weapon then things are a bit easier. It's particularly good if instead of just hitting them as N suggests, you stab them with something like a sharp key or a pen, and you can't be arrested for carrying them either.;)

[Neurotic]

I'm sure you've stabbed me Chips.. at least once :cool:

But yes - good point! environmental weapons

shoes, belt, pen, mobile phone, throw coins, whateva ya got.

But again - this is all stuff that is normal to think about too.

(although, I wouldn't put a shoe over my hand to protect me from a punch - that may look weird :rolleyes: )

[Knifefighter]

1- It's very hard to see when the knife comes out. It happens fast and is usually pretty well-disguised.
2- It is very hard to differentiate between a normal punch and a punch that is actually a disguise for a knife cut.
3- A real knife attack will not have the little, flicky, "watik" type of motions that many people associate with "knifefighting", but will be full-on, power based face, head, and body shots- much like a boxers punches.
4- A knife attacker will probably have his empty hand forward, holding the knife in the rear to aid in retention and stabbing power.
5- The forward, empty hand will probably grab onto your clothing to limit your mobility as the knife hand pistons back and forth. This forward, controlling arm also acts as a shield, making it hard for you to punch the attacker or deflect the incoming thrusts.
6- Most fatal wounds are inflicted after the attacker follows the victim to the ground and finishes him there.
7- You probably won't have time to get an equalizer before the knife attack has started.
8- Different types of clothing can significantly reduce the cutting efficiency of a blade.
9- The current debate on those doing cutting edge work on disarms is over the type of hold to use to immobilize the knife arm and the most effective ways to negate the effect of the attacker's empty, controlling hand.
10- Double knife attacks are exponentially harder to defend.

[dezhen2001]

8- Different types of clothing can significantly reduce the cutting efficiency of a blade. Knifefighter any more info you would like ot share on this? thanks

dawood

[vingtsunstudent]

yes dezhen2001, make sure you wear a grappling gi so that they know you are one of the most dangerous men on the planet.
this will aviod you being cut as they will be more than likely already running away the moment they see you coming towards them.
that should do it, hey knifefighter:p ;)
vts

[Knifefighter]

Actually, the grappling gi would be a very good choice. It is thick, which makes it harder for the knife to penetrate fully. It is also loose, which makes it easier for the blade to get bound up in the material. Serrated edges also tend to get bound up in clothing more easily than straight edges.

What would be an even better clothing choice? Chain armor.

[vingtsunstudent]

*** ****, is hard being you and being so bloody right all the time:), let alone so quick as to ruin my joke:mad:
vts

[PaulH]

Posts on this thread from Neurotic and Knifefighter are great! I would like to offer from my own observations that when it comes to knifefighting, the Filipino Kali/Escrima system makes more sense. I like the way they cover/cut while avoiding being cut at the same time by staying out of the knife's path. One of the main desirable attributes of knifefighting is you have to be able to flow with your opponent. Trying to grasp knife right away is dangerous before you can effectively and safely control his knife's possible ranges of motion. On the other hand, if you can manage to cut into/deflect that knife with one hand, your other free hand now have the option to control tightly that knife arm and allowing your other hand to attack him or disarm him. Footwork is of paramount important as you must avoid the strength of his knife attack which will cause you to freeze allowing him to further disrupt and set up his next strike effectively. This is one of the reasons why our Baat Chum Do's footwork is light and elusive preferring to cut using the sharp edged knife to do damages rather than the hands which utilize the principle of "receive what comes, escort what goes, when free thrust forward"

[russellsherry]

dear paul h . i aggree with you and knifefighter, thats why i like arnis eskrima ,for the blade defence theirs nothing better ,also it is such a street orinantated, art it fits perfect with wing chun by the way my two teachers in arnis are in the new blitz magizine
talking about disarms their names are guro roland dantes ad guro
david foggie who is also my wing chun sifu former, top student of stephan chan he is also my good mate as well hope you can see
it some time peace russellsherry

[donbdc]

Hey Russel<
I am also a student of Randy's and I also study Modern Arnis!
As far as we study in Arnis. A same hand Tan Sau is always used to intercept the knife hand. I love the combination of the 2 arts b/c they have so much overlap regarding principles of defense, attack footwork and body unit.
Don Berry

[russellsherry]

hi don greetings from down under, i am glad you train in modern
arnis, my guro roland dantes was a close friend of guro remy's
founder of your art , send me your schools addrees and i will
send you a couple of blitz mags on guro dantes and the disarms,
my friend david foggie is his top student and also a student of
seefs as well dave was the one who got me interested in arnis, and show me some very useful things with blade defenece i am
also glad you train with sifu randy as randy put my faith back, into martial arts after a bad expereince with a former teacher
cherrs from close range combat training group down under
peace russelsherry

[donbdc]

Hey Russel,
It's funny, but I had a very similiar experience I was out of martial arts for years b/c of all the cooks I kept dealing w/.
My address is 176 thomas johnson dr suite 204, Frederick MD. 21702.
I got to see the Blitz mag w/ Seef and Sifu wayne. Great article!
My email address is donbdc@yahoo.com
Seef is having a big event July 4th. drop me a line.
Donnie

[russellsherry]

dear don i will send to you 2 copies of blitz magizine, with goro dantes , and goro foggie in the next two weeks also i forgot to
mention guro dantes, is a famous movie star in the, philipines,
and just was in a movie with stan the man aussie kicboker called
trogen warrior you should see him use the balisong oh by the way
talk to your guro guro roland does semminars in the states , i might be able to arrange something peace russellsherry