Application of Fook Sau and Tan Sau

[Chen Zen]

I have learned the physical way to perform these movements but I do not know what the true applications are. I would ask my "Teacher" but if you have followed my previous posts then you see my predicament and I will no longer look to him for teachings. Also if you could give me information on bong sau it would be appreciated greatly. Thank you.

[yuanfen]

Egads Chen Zen- how can you learn bong sao in an internet forum???

[Block]

How can you learn any martial art in an internet forum???

Like in one of my previous posts it is very hard to describe MA movements on the net.

I suggest you just find a real instructor and pick their brains.

[Chen Zen]

:D Egads- A word I havent heard in some time. I can describe to you the application of a high block in TKD and what to use it for if you know the proper body movement required to do it. (BTW this block is remarkably similar to Bong Sau except that instead of your hand going towards the opponent it goes up towards your head.) This block is used to stop a high kick attack such as ax kick or a high punch. This is all I need. What they are used for.

[TjD]

tan sau and fook sau boil down to particular feelings in your arm: relaxing the proper way and aligning bones correctly. once you have this feeling their applications are endless. they are NOT blocks in the TKD sense. it's near impossible to figure them out without proper instruction by someone who can feel your tan/fook and adjust them, along with a lot of practice.


in wing chun none of the hands fall into the "he does this, i respond with this" category. that's too slow. proper chi sau allows your body to simply respond with the appropriate hand in whatever situation you happen to be in.

[yylee]

Fook Sau uses body mass to subdue the opponent's bridge. Tan/Bong uses ground support, combined with some wedge shape penetration effect.

[kj]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
:D Egads- A word I havent heard in some time. I can describe to you the application of a high block in TKD and what to use it for if you know the proper body movement required to do it. (BTW this block is remarkably similar to Bong Sau except that instead of your hand going towards the opponent it goes up towards your head.) This block is used to stop a high kick attack such as ax kick or a high punch. This is all I need. What they are used for.

While Wing Chun has techniques (technically speaking), it is not a technique oriented art. It is an art based on concepts, principles and very particular body mechanics. Comprehension requires far more than knowing examples of what bong sau is used for; same for other movements. It requires understanding of the proper movement, relative positioning, and means of movement, understanding of the depth and breadth of concepts and principles underlying them, and all in context of a kind of learning that only comes with "internalizing" through practice over time. Cognitive understanding is not enough, IMHO and IME, at best a starting point. As the body learns, cognitive understanding evolves and grows. Further, this all needs to be learned and understood in context of the other elements of the art which all play in harmony.

A proficient and knowledgeable teacher is a must, and unfortunately those who are sufficiently qualified are all too rare. I offer you my personal assurance that if you try to learn and practice bong sau just from reading about it, no matter how apt the verbal description, you will be wrong. Good luck in your endeavors nonetheless, and especially in search of a good teacher.

Others will disagree with me on this, but I personally would recommend an excellent teacher in another art over a mediocre or unqualified teacher of Wing Chun. With 13 years of TKD behind you, you may agree that martial arts training is a major investment of time and effort. Time being the most precious and non-renewable of all our resources, we only cheat ourselves with second rate investments.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
Others will disagree with me on this, but I personally would recommend an excellent teacher in another art over a mediocre or unqualified teacher of Wing Chun. KJ, I certainly agree with this statement. Mediocre WC doesn't do anybody any good. You're likely to ingrain some very bad habits in that situation.

Matrix

[Chen Zen]

Thank you all and it seems that I have much to learn.

[Matrix]

Chen Zen,

No shame in that. I certainly have a lot to learn myself. One thing I can tell you is that Bong Sau is quite different from a TKD high-block. While they may look somewhat similar, they are in fact very different. I'll leave it at that, since Kathy Jo has already done an excellent job of covering the topic.

Matrix

[desertwingchun2]

KJ -

If your post was a smilie face, it would be this guy ----> :cool:

-David

[reneritchie]

KJ is correct. Both Davids are correct.

FWIW, Tan and Fook are Yum/Yeung (Yin/Yang) hands. Tan is to disperse, Fook is to control. The physical shape is not the distinction, as both can look very similar (as can other Sao).

If you want basic application, each can be used to counter the other, and the aspects of the other manifest in strikes/attacks. If a strike is trying to drop mass power down into you, Tan Sao can disperse it, slough it off to the side and open it up. If a strike is trying to penetrate ground-braced power up into you, Fook Sao can subdue it, choke off its angle and break its power.

You can see this in things like Yip Man's Dan Chi Sao exercise. If you're not familiar with that, you can do something similar. Just stand with a partner, your right wrist inside his/her left wrist. Punch from that, connected, position and have them use Fook Sao to counter. Then have them punch and you use Tan Sao to counter. Go back and forth. (later you can do the same thing both outside or both inside, going from tan to tan or fook to fook).

Since you don't have a sifu, you will have to reinvent the wheel to figure out what shapes work best. Try to keep your elbows in. Path (position throughout motion) must be precise. Find what gives you the best results with the least effort.

[Chen Zen]

:D excellent thank you again Rene!!

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp

No disrespect intended, but why do you hold your Tan Saus so high? Also, the Wu Sau accompanying the Bong Sau in one of the pictures seems very high and forward, and the Kwun Sau seems high as well, appearing to leave the lower gates open.

[black and blue]

Is that Tan to protect the identity of the innocent :D (just kidding)

Our Tan Sau has the hand flatter and has our fingers pointing roughly at our opponent's neck (though height of the Tan is determined largely by the attack).

If you don't mind me asking, why does your Tan Sau obscure your view?

Your student's YCKYM is also alot wider than ours... but different strokes and all that.

Did I read that you had previous Wing Chun experience before moving to TWC?

Many thanks,

Duncan

[foolinthedeck]

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/form.asp

-my honest opinion:
that is shocking! its only a fools opinion, but in the fools opinion your doing it wrong. thanks for the link though!

[Bill_G]

No disrespect intended, but why do you hold your Tan Saus so high? Also, the Wu Sau accompanying the Bong Sau in one of the pictures seems very high and forward, and the Kwun Sau seems high as well, appearing to leave the lower gates open.

While I do agree, you have to understand that the different
styles of Wing Chun very greatly. Their boang sau is augmented
by the tan sau. I have no idea why the wu sau and kwan sau are so high, it goes against what I've been taught. Its funny
how the one picture flashes to Yip Man doing the technique
and he's doing it completely different.

[Bill_G]

Another thing, I was trying to show a new
student how to do boang sau last night,
and he was doing it like a karate/TKD
block. That is not correct. The hand is
supposed to drill toward the opponents
neck, the elbow should end up above the
shoulder and the elbow angle should be
roughly 135 degrees NOT 45. Trying to
show somebody in person is hard, trying
to explain it in text is next to impossible.
I know there are alot of areas, especially
the South, where there are no Wing Chun
schools. My best advice is to get videos,
at least you'll be able to see it in motion.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Bill_G
While I do agree, you have to understand that the different
styles of Wing Chun very greatly. Their boang sau is augmented
by the tan sau. I have no idea why the wu sau and kwan sau are so high, it goes against what I've been taught. Its funny
how the one picture flashes to Yip Man doing the technique
and he's doing it completely different.
I've seen that Wu Sao before in Three Stooges movies. It effectively blocks two-fingered eye pokes from Moe.

Regards,

[captain]

but,seriously guys,what about my index finger curling up
[slightly] on a left tan sau?and not the right?am i alone
and a drift in this oddity?