Beyond the Pointing Finger

[aelward]

Anyone read this book by David Peterson? One of the guys I train with loaned it to me the other day, and I was so enraptured that I finished it in one sitting.

Great insights into theory, as well as a personal look at WSL. Really great book, I highly recommend it!

[vingtsunstudent]

yes, very good read.
it must be noted though that wong sifu never learnt to grapple, so as for his experiences as a real fighter i think they are false.
surely nobody could fight that often and never be defeated only knowing nothing but wing chun.
vts

[yuanfen]

True. Wong Sifu also never got the benefit of internet advice
on grappling, kicking and other things.
And, did he "perform" for prospective studentsbe fore they decided to be his student?

[vingtsunstudent]

of course he did.
it is a little know fact that he lured all his students with his world renowned strip teases rather than his reputation not only as a skilled fighter but excellent teacher as well.
i think we best be careful yuanfen as people might take what we say seriously, then again, speaking from my no skilled internet expert experience, no they won't.
vts

[Grendel]

Originally posted by aelward
Anyone read this book by David Peterson? One of the guys I train with loaned it to me the other day, and I was so enraptured that I finished it in one sitting.

Great insights into theory, as well as a personal look at WSL. Really great book, I highly recommend it!
Hi Aelward,

David Peterson's tribute to his sifu is the only worthwhile Wing Chun book that I've ever seen. It has an esteemed place in my personal library. Personally, I found it exceptionally inspirational, providing insights into both Wong Sifu and Peterson.

Regards,

[PaulH]

I found the book a gold mine of information on Wong's thoughts on various aspects of WC teaching, training, fighting, and philosophy. Each time I read it, I see something new. As I venture more and more into murky ocean water of WC knowledges and its possibilities, his wisdom like a lighthouse provide clear direction on the best way to head toward that distant shore. Thanks, David on your invaluable work.

[Matrix]

I have my copy, and have read it several times. It's one of the best books on the principles and concepts of Wing Chun, IMO.

Matrix

[aelward]

My only bite with the book is that it is only available through cashier checks.... wish he could find an easier way to distribute it overseas so more people can get ahold of it!

[R Clausnitzer]

Originally posted by yuanfen
True. Wong Sifu also never got the benefit of internet advice
on grappling, kicking and other things.
And, did he "perform" for prospective studentsbe fore they decided to be his student?

Hi, Joy

Trust this finds you in good health and spirits.

Nevertheless, I am disappointed with the questioning tone of your post , as it it seems to come from either a significant lack of knowledge about WSL's history and/or doubt about the accuracy of this history.

As you and other readers may have noticed, I am a stickler for accuracy and when I do post, which is infrequently, it's more often than not to set the record straight.

As someone who was there not long after the beginnings of modern Wing Chun in Hong Kong and has been exposed to Wing Chun longer than probably anyone on this or any other forum (in Australia, for example, I can think only of Zopa Gyatso who has been around for a similar period), I speak with some measure of authority.

As I have made it clear in my afterword to David's groundbreaking book, Wong sifu was one of the most gentle, humble, affable, and philosophical human beings I have been fortunate to meet (how's that for a paradox?). At the same time, he held nothing back and was willing to test everything and anything, and kept pointing his students in the same direction.

As his first foreign student in 1964 (even though I had been first exposed to Wing Chun in 1958 via Bruce Lee, my brother Frank, and some of his scholmates) I too was curious about the efficacy of different martial arts and spent many hours discussing the effectiveness of karate, tong long, choy lay fut, western boxing, and grappling with sifu. As I was reasonably proficient in judo - I was captain of the Leicester University judo team, had fought successfully in
the Leicestershire league and the All England AJA (Amateur Judo Association) championships - I tried several times to see if I could apply it against sifu. He was simply too fast for me, with his rapid fire punches and excellent footwork. I simply could not get a hold on him. Even on the one occasion when, by agreement, he allowed me to get under and lift him off the ground, he demonstrated how he could cause damage even in the midst of a throw (decades later, another sifu demonstrated this ability in a US seminar). Since then, I have witnessed for myself (and also taken on faith the accounts of friends who have had successes against grapplers, dating back to the late 60's /early 70's!) how good Wing Chun, using the appropriate footwork (including that found in the BJD form), works against grapplers.....

......so how come nobody has shown that skill in the MMA tournaments. starting with the first UFC? It's a controversial matter, but from my perspective I believe that no Wing Chun competitor has ever entered, with the required levels of technical skill PLUS psychological mindset or fighting spirit PLUS the necessary training and conditioning to deal with not only grapplers but the whole different ballgame of ring fighting which requires "professional" levels of dedication and commitment.
In fact, after the very early attempts of Gus Levicki (who lasted the longest of any competitor in any UFC bout to that date)and Scott Baker who struggled for about 5 minutes or so before he gave in, there have been hardly any WC participants (less than 5) even bothering to enter. I have seen a short video clip of one competitor who showed not a scintilla of WC training and simply rushed forward into the arms of his very fast grappling opponent.
Incidentally, if any of you have read, on another forum, Scott Baker's frank account of his bout, it is clear that he was no slouch and had quite a successful full contact career before his UFC bout....but, of his own admission, he was psychologically not where he should have been, as he still does not understand to this day why he did not use his WC skills to end the fight when he had the opportunity to do so, electing instead to grapple with his opponent.

Until, WC practitioners train in the ways outlined above, they will not do well in such tournaments. But maybe such a strategy is being initiated. I am thinking particularly of the efforts of the Wing Tsun organisation, including former members, for example, Emin Boztepe, who have introduced anti grappling training.

If anyone is wondering what the point of this message is.....it's a twofold one......firstly, WSL's combat record has been authenticated by numerous sources, including media eyewitness reports, with reference to encounters with experienced and usually older opponents from countless martial arts and styles (not teenage punks on rooftops, as some naive and ill informed people have claimed on a few mailing lists)......secondly, there is no infallible martial art - even though some are demonstrably more effective and efficient than others - and thirdly, the only way WC competitors can do well in MMA tournaments is by undergoing the necessary rigorous and dedicated training....for better or worse, the majority of WC practitioners do not train for that purpose, but to end a street confrontation in seconds, if it should ever come to that......nevertheless, that does not stop many from conjecturing and theorising and living off the reputation of WC, without putting in the realistic training necessary :)

Regards.

Rolf

[yuanfen]

Hi Rolf-
Good to see your post.
But I am afraid that you misread mine and misunderstood my intent. I believe that VTS understood the humor.
I have nothing but respect for WSL and intended zero doubt of his abilities or record. I dont know how you think that I was
contradicting the profile of WSL brought out so well by David's book, which I praised publicly- immediately after reading it.
I have had similar praise for Barry Lee's essays.

My points were basically two fold...
1. one doesnt learn much kung fu from chat lists- best to get a good teacher.

2. while finding a good teacher is not easy- a good and able teacher (WSL- a classic example) does not have to be a performing bear to an interested newbie and show off that he can fight before the student becomes a student. A serious and inquiring student has to make an effort and some careful inductions from knowing something about the background of a teacher.

On the UFC and similar events- I still regard them as sporting events. I agree that if a good wing chun person enters one that they have to add things to their contest specific training- including aerobics and working out with people who have been there... mat, cage etc.. Fora boxing ring they would have to train differently. Ditto for wrestling mat. But if they are going to be typed as wing chun persons they should first have depth in their wing chun. But testing in a sporting rule and environmentally (cage, ring etc) bound context and in a real encounter are quite different things IMO.

joy

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, Joy

Thanks for the clarification and my apologies for the misreading....I was not listening, except to my own reactive thoughts ! I do tend to be like that when the integrity of sifu appears to be brought into question, which was not the case, as the subtlety of your message has just dawned on me.....:)

Regards.

Rolf



Originally posted by yuanfen
Hi Rolf-
Good to see your post.
But I am afraid that you misread mine and misunderstood my intent. I believe that VTS understood the humor.
I have nothing but respect for WSL and intended zero doubt of his abilities or record. I dont know how you think that I was
contradicting the profile of WSL brought out so well by David's book, which I praised publicly- immediately after reading it.
I have had similar praise for Barry Lee's essays.

My points were basically two fold...
1. one doesnt learn much kung fu from chat lists- best to get a good teacher.

2. while finding a good teacher is not easy- a good and able teacher (WSL- a classic example) does not have to be a performing bear to an interested newbie and show off that he can fight before the student becomes a student. A serious and inquiring student has to make an effort and some careful inductions from knowing something about the background of a teacher.

On the UFC and similar events- I still regard them as sporting events. I agree that if a good wing chun person enters one that they have to add things to their contest specific training- including aerobics and working out with people who have been there... mat, cage etc.. Fora boxing ring they would have to train differently. Ditto for wrestling mat. But if they are going to be typed as wing chun persons they should first have depth in their wing chun. But testing in a sporting rule and environmentally (cage, ring etc) bound context and in a real encounter are quite different things IMO.

joy

[yuanfen]

Thanks Rolf-
In differing degrees we all struggle with chat list communications
where tones and complete meanings are not always easy to convey.
Best wishes, Joy

[vingtsunstudent]

hi rolf
just again to clear up things from me.
i did appologise for semi-hijacking this thread but along with the rest of that post it has been removed.( and to sandman, grow up, i can't see what was so offensive with my post or with the words '*** ****' that you cut out in the other thread)
i am a student of barry lee and those who know me know i have nothing but the utmost admiration and respect for wong sifu.
the points i raised were due to somebodies remarks that one can never be a successful fighter knowing nothing but wing chun.
basically i was just being a smarta$$ and for that i am again sorry to any and all who may have taken what i have said the wrong way.
again, davids book is awesome and will give future generation an insight into a true legend of the wing chun family.
vts

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, VTS

That's OK, we all get a bit reactive at times....:)

Your mention of Barry Lee evokes all sorts of thoughts. Here is a man who is widely respected and yet appears to keep so much to himself. I am sure that I speak for countless others when I say that we would love to hear more about his training with sifu as well as his own gong sau and other experiences. Yet at the same time I respect fully his wishes to keep these largely to himself, although I wish he would change his mind one day :)

Regards.

Rolf




Originally posted by vingtsunstudent
hi rolf
just again to clear up things from me.
i did appologise for semi-hijacking this thread but along with the rest of that post it has been removed.( and to sandman, grow up, i can't see what was so offensive with my post or with the words 'god damm' that you cut out in the other thread)
i am a student of barry lee and those who know me know i have nothing but the utmost admiration and respect for wong sifu.
the points i raised were due to somebodies remarks that one can never be a successful fighter knowing nothing but wing chun.
basically i was just being a smarta$$ and for that i am again sorry to any and all who may have taken what i have said the wrong way.
again, davids book is awesome and will give future generation an insight into a true legend of the wing chun family.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

hello again rolf and thanx for understanding
' I am sure that I speak for countless others when I say that we would love to hear more about his training with sifu as well as his own gong sau and other experiences. '
hopefully in time he well be detaling some of his time spent with wong sifu but as for speaking of himself i think that for those who know barry, also know that this may never happen as he not the type to speak so much on these matters, which is a little unfortunate because he does have some very interesting stuff locked away in his vault.
i have been fortunate to hear a few recounts of different aspects of his training and one or to other things but again largely he lets his training and teaching do his talking in regards to skill and detail of knowledge on the system and its application.
regards
vts

[captain]

You see,what Herr Clausnitzer said follows [or i follow his]
point.3 weeks ago,on my 1st wck lesson,my judo,i knew
could get nowhere near the wck.in the time i needed to
apply a grab then a sweep,id be pounded.though i still
want what Clausnitzer promised on the wsl site:part 2
of his story!!!!
russ

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, Russ

The follow up interview is definitely coming, albeit over 9 years overdue! Will talk to David Peterson about it soon.

Also, I am about 75% through updating the book I first wrote in 1969, for publication on the internet. Will keep you and other interested parties informed.

All the best.

Rolf


Originally posted by captain
You see,what Herr Clausnitzer said follows [or i follow his]
point.3 weeks ago,on my 1st wck lesson,my judo,i knew
could get nowhere near the wck.in the time i needed to
apply a grab then a sweep,id be pounded.though i still
want what Clausnitzer promised on the wsl site:part 2
of his story!!!!
russ

[kj]

Originally posted by R Clausnitzer
The follow up interview is definitely coming, albeit over 9 years overdue! Will talk to David Peterson about it soon.

Also, I am about 75% through updating the book I first wrote in 1969, for publication on the internet. Will keep you and other interested parties informed.

Hi Rolf. This is great news. Please keep us generally informed ... there are lots of us "interested parties" out here. :) Thanks for your efforts.

FWIW, David's book continues to show up as a "favorite" on various KFO threads:

Best Book on Wing Chun thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16806&highlight=beyond+the+pointing+finger)
Favorite Books thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11981&highlight=beyond+the+pointing+finger)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Matrix]

Originally posted by aelward
My only bite with the book is that it is only available through cashier checks.... wish he could find an easier way to distribute it overseas so more people can get ahold of it! It's a bit of headache, I must agree, but well worth the effort. Note, not only did I have to get a cashier cheque, but had to convert to US$. Now that hurts. ;)

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
Please keep us generally informed ... there are lots of us "interested parties" out here. :) Thanks for your efforts.
I second that !

Matrix

[Ultimatewingchun]

Hey...Sandman....

There's such a thing as taking the political correctness thing a little too far...

What is this...a martial arts forum...or how to knit sweaters in three easy lessons?

I would appreciate my post entitled TRUTH AND CONSEQUENCES
to go back up...and vingtsunstudents' reply as well...

If you want to leave out my riposte to his response...that's fine with me!

How about it?

[vingtsunstudent]

Ultimatewingchun
look out bud, we actually agree on something.
i'm not sure if you can e-mail me via my profile but you can try.
i would be glad to have heard your response.
by the way did you actually take the time to re-read what i first had to say on the other thread, because i'm sure that if you did you would have found that the actual motive of my post was to let people know that these days i feel that it is necersary to learn or at least look at a grappling art, maybe not to the extent you talk about but at the least to understand how and why they do things so that you work on how to make your wing chun work against that type of thing.
so infact i was semi-agree with you, the only thing i disagreed with was the way you went about it. i feel you have no need to put **** on people or right them of as having no experrience simply because their views differ from yours,i think that's just being rude and ignorant and i'm sorry if you can't see that.
vts

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, Kathy and Matrix

Thanks for the info, Kathy, and for your own particular evaluation of David's book. I stumbled across this forum only late last year :)

Thanks for your interest, Matrix.

I shall send the first of a few progress reports shortly, which will explain the unusual, perhaps unprecendented nature of the updating of my book.

Ciao.

Rolf








Originally posted by kj


Hi Rolf. This is great news. Please keep us generally informed ... there are lots of us "interested parties" out here. :) Thanks for your efforts.

FWIW, David's book continues to show up as a "favorite" on various KFO threads:

Best Book on Wing Chun thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16806&highlight=beyond+the+pointing+finger)
Favorite Books thread (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11981&highlight=beyond+the+pointing+finger)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Ultimatewingchun]

Sandman....

You need to put my post - TRUTH AND CONSEQUENCES back on this thread along with vingtsunstudents' reply....

That post was 2 pages long and his reply almost a page...

Do you know how much time and thought goes into that?

Stop being a scaredy-cat

[Ultimatewingchun]

Look vingtsunstudent:

Let me put it this way:

I agree with you that learning something about what other styles do - especially grappling systems since their approach to fighting is so much different than wing chun - is a good thing...

BUT I TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER.......

I believe... from personal street-fighting experience, as well as by simply seeing lots of fighting, be it on the street, or the UFC, or from hard sparing during classtime...whatever it may be...

THAT ANYBODY - NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY ARE - COULD
OCCASIONALLY (IF NOT FREQUENTLY)...

find themselves in either a standing or groundfighting-type GRAPPLING situation - or possibly both.

THEREFORE... it makes sense to learn to be a good grappler as well as being a good wing chun man...

AND THAT'S MY WHOLE POINT PLAIN AND SIMPLE!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Rolf Clausnitzer:

I was impressed with your first post on this thread - and very much in agreement with your analysis about what it would take for a wing chun man to succeed in the UFC, both psychologically and physically.

My background is this: 3-4 years of catch-as-catch-can wrestling starting at the age of 12; eight years of wing chun with Moy Yat; and for the last almost 20 years (it will be 20 in August,2003)- I have been a student of William Cheung (Cheung Chuk Hing); and have been running a school teaching William Cheung's Traditional wing chun system here in New York City for many years now...and over the last several years have gone back to catch wrestling in addition to ...not instead of ...but in addition to wing chun.

Someone who posts under the name of "captain" puy it very well earlier on this thread when he said - in terms of trying to apply his judo against wing chun - "in the time I needed to apply a grab and then a sweep, I'd be pounded"...

Someone else posted on a different thread how he managed (even though he does wing chun ) to catch someone in a guillotine choke when that person attempted to tackle him...

My point is this: the more grappler types start training (and they already have) in the striking arts; and the more they learn the value of STRAIGHT punches and kicks ...

the more adept they become at penetrating into our (wing chun) short range...(chi sao range)...distances.

The more they get closer to the close contact range that we prefer to use - the easier it becomes for them to transition to the "grab and sweep" range that captain referred to...or the grab and middle-of-the-body takedown...or the single or the double-leg takedown....RANGE...etc.

Now of course the question now becomes one of whether or not we can punish them ENOUGH once they get into this closer-than-usual range (for them)...so that their attempt at the sweep or takedown is not successful...

AND THIS IS WHERE THE DEVIL MEETS ALL THE DETAILS!

Now while it's true that certain counter-grappling stategies work very well in many instances (ie.-footwork, (including the planting of our feet in such a way so that they find it hard to up-root us); palm and elbow strikes to vulnerable targets; redirecting or perhaps totally avoiding their attempts to grab; taking advantage of their shifts in balance in order to off-balance them, etc...

the fact STILL REMAINS that the more skilled they get in their "stand-up" game of punching, blocking, kicking, footwork, and so on ...the easier it becomes for them to penetrate to such a range (or distance) where...when they do go for the grab and takedown...BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW SO CLOSE...and the shortest distance between two points being a straight line...WE NO LONGER HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME TO DO THE COUNTER-GRAPPLING MOVE...and of course this shortened distance and time issue now snowballs into other issues like having enough power on the strike to sufficiently stop their advance, and so on...

Imagine someone, if you will, whose wing chun skills are as good as yours - thereby managing to get very close to your body and legs without getting hurt...suddenly pulling one of these moves out of his pocket after opening up (or occupying) the line of engagement...instead of striking you...or worse yet..after he strikes you...and this guy is an excellent submission grappler as well...and he takes you down...

I bring this to you without even getting into other issues like what to do in case you lose your footing on a slippery floor, or you're sneak-attacked from the back or side...and therefore now find yourself on the floor, etc.

We are living in a different era now then when Cheung Chuk Hing, or Wong Shun Leung, or Yip Man, and so forth...made their chops...

Your thoughts?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by R Clausnitzer
Thanks for your interest, Matrix.

I shall send the first of a few progress reports shortly, which will explain the unusual, perhaps unprecendented nature of the updating of my book. Rolf,

It is I who should be thanking you. Thanks for sharing your experience. It is greatly appreciated.

Matrix

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, Victor

You make a number of good points and it seems as if we are thinking along similar lines, even though your style of WC differs significantly from mine :)

There is no doubt - in the ring at any rate - that the grappler who learns to punch in a direct and efficient manner will generally have the edge over the striker who has little or no knowledge of groundwork. Is it Vitor Belfort who won one of his bouts very quickly simply by rapid fire punching his opponent, without resorting to groundwork? Also, I've seen a video clip of an alleged WC competitor who, again, showed not the slightest evidence of WC training in his stance, fotwork, hand positioning, etc, allowed himself to be taken to the ground, where ironically it was the grappler who finished off his opponent in seconds with a rapid fire series of punches delivered with WC like speed and intensity! Furthermore, last year I watched a long tape of another NHB type competition (it may have been the EFC), with perhaps over 20 bouts. What struck me as remarkable (as I reran several of the bouts and analysed them carefully) was that:
1) a minority of the fighters realised that they could finish off their opponents much more quickly by pounding them (which they did) than getting into the protracted struggles that the majority did 2) I saw numerous possibilities for the competitor in either superior or inferior position to bite, crush their opponent's windpipe, eye gouge, etc, ie to use non grappling methods to finish the bout quickly......BUT, of course, such techniques are not permitted in a sporting context and it is to the credit of these professional fighters that they did not resort to such tactics.

The superiority of grapplers, for the most part, over strikers, in the ring is not new at all......decades ago, I recall Robert W Smith (I have a lot of respect for this erudite author, but sometimes he comes out with palpaple nonsense such as dismissing Wing Chun as a "minor" system :)) quoting a statistic to the effect that in US collegiate matches, wrestlers were consistently defeating gloved boxers. A famous public match occurred in the early 60's when the legendary Gene "Judo" Lebell defeated a then world ranked lightheavyweight contnder, Milo Savage.

What happens in the street, however, may be quite different. Even grapplers, generally, have no desire to go to the ground, to avoid injury to themselves and, more likely, to avoid getting kicked to pieces by their opponent's accomplices.

On the other hand, as I mentioned in a previous post, I know of numerous instances of WC exponents who have dealt successfully with grappling attacks in sparring matches. Equally, I am sure that there are people who can provide numerous examples of WC practitioners who have come to grief against grapplers.....:)

I agree with your point that as the grapplers wise up to good striking, they will become even more formidable and, therefore, that WC practitioners must enhance their skills and repertoire, in the context of broadening their experience, if they wish to succeed against grapplers in the ring. Starting from the basic essential requirement that they must train as hard as the grapplers, they can improve their chances of surviving an encounter that goes to the ground by learning and becoming proficient in the rudiments of grappling and/or experimenting with what works on the ground using WC concepts and techniques (but not to talk about using eye gouges, biting, etc....all no-no techniques in the sporting arena). I'd like to add that as good WC, as opposed to inferior WC, is more concept based than technique based, a switched on WC man can find ways of simplifying and enhancing grappling moves whilst learning how to grapple.....nothing should be taken as gospel :)

I could be deluding myself, but my experience of WC over the decades, including the input of numerous colleagues and friends is that a well trained WC practitioner, with fighting spirit, and the appropriate footwork (I urge all readers, interested in this thread, to read or reread David Peterson's excellent article "Tackling The Tackle" on Rene Ritchie's site) , will be able to stop a grappler in the majority of sparring or streetfighting scenarios, but there will always be skilled, tough grapplers who will take their opponent down, no matter what :)

It will be interesting to see if any really decent (ie with all the necessary attributes) WC man will EVER train for and compete in the MMA ring (I am talking about major, highly publicised competitions, even though I am sure that there have been successes by WC competitors in minor competitions). Until that happens, the question remains an academic one. It may possibly not happen at all, as WC is designed primarily for the 10 second street encounter, not punishing, stamina sapping ring fighting, and as most of us prefer to live off the reputation of WC, rather than widen our horizons a bit.....:)

Regards.

Rolf



Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Rolf Clausnitzer:

I was impressed with your first post on this thread - and very much in agreement with your analysis about what it would take for a wing chun man to succeed in the UFC, both psychologically and physically.

My background is this: 3-4 years of catch-as-catch-can wrestling starting at the age of 12; eight years of wing chun with Moy Yat; and for the last almost 20 years (it will be 20 in August,2003)- I have been a student of William Cheung (Cheung Chuk Hing); and have been running a school teaching William Cheung's Traditional wing chun system here in New York City for many years now...and over the last several years have gone back to catch wrestling in addition to ...not instead of ...but in addition to wing chun.

Someone who posts under the name of "captain" puy it very well earlier on this thread when he said - in terms of trying to apply his judo against wing chun - "in the time I needed to apply a grab and then a sweep, I'd be pounded"...

Someone else posted on a different thread how he managed (even though he does wing chun ) to catch someone in a guillotine choke when that person attempted to tackle him...

My point is this: the more grappler types start training (and they already have) in the striking arts; and the more they learn the value of STRAIGHT punches and kicks ...

the more adept they become at penetrating into our (wing chun) short range...(chi sao range)...distances.

The more they get closer to the close contact range that we prefer to use - the easier it becomes for them to transition to the "grab and sweep" range that captain referred to...or the grab and middle-of-the-body takedown...or the single or the double-leg takedown....RANGE...etc.

Now of course the question now becomes one of whether or not we can punish them ENOUGH once they get into this closer-than-usual range (for them)...so that their attempt at the sweep or takedown is not successful...

AND THIS IS WHERE THE DEVIL MEETS ALL THE DETAILS!

Now while it's true that certain counter-grappling stategies work very well in many instances (ie.-footwork, (including the planting of our feet in such a way so that they find it hard to up-root us); palm and elbow strikes to vulnerable targets; redirecting or perhaps totally avoiding their attempts to grab; taking advantage of their shifts in balance in order to off-balance them, etc...

the fact STILL REMAINS that the more skilled they get in their "stand-up" game of punching, blocking, kicking, footwork, and so on ...the easier it becomes for them to penetrate to such a range (or distance) where...when they do go for the grab and takedown...BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW SO CLOSE...and the shortest distance between two points being a straight line...WE NO LONGER HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME TO DO THE COUNTER-GRAPPLING MOVE...and of course this shortened distance and time issue now snowballs into other issues like having enough power on the strike to sufficiently stop their advance, and so on...

Imagine someone, if you will, whose wing chun skills are as good as yours - thereby managing to get very close to your body and legs without getting hurt...suddenly pulling one of these moves out of his pocket after opening up (or occupying) the line of engagement...instead of striking you...or worse yet..after he strikes you...and this guy is an excellent submission grappler as well...and he takes you down...

I bring this to you without even getting into other issues like what to do in case you lose your footing on a slippery floor, or you're sneak-attacked from the back or side...and therefore now find yourself on the floor, etc.

We are living in a different era now then when Cheung Chuk Hing, or Wong Shun Leung, or Yip Man, and so forth...made their chops...

Your thoughts?

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by R Clausnitzer

Hi Rolf,

Thanks for the tip. Here's a link for others. David's an insightful writer.

Tackling the Tackle by David Peterson (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/readings/contemporary/columns/peterson/wsl11_tackling.html)

Regards,

[R Clausnitzer]

Thank YOU, John.....being a computer illiterate geriatric, I'd be grateful to know how to post live links in the way you have done....:)

Regards.

Rolf




Originally posted by John Weiland

Hi Rolf,

Thanks for the tip. Here's a link for others. David's an insightful writer.

Tackling the Tackle by David Peterson (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/readings/contemporary/columns/peterson/wsl11_tackling.html)

Regards,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by R Clausnitzer
Thank YOU, John.....being a computer illiterate geriatric, I'd be grateful to know how to post live links in the way you have done....:)

Regards.

Rolf

Hi Rolf,

I sent you a private message on posting URLs. I hope you find it useful.

I appreciate that you take the time to discuss Wing Chun here.

Regards,

[vingtsunstudent]

Ultimatewingchun
if you had have came out with that approach and reasoning in the first place i'm sure you would have had a lot less problems with a few people here, including myself.
fighting is definitely 'an each to his own' thing and that post will have probably cleared up alot for many, the best part about it was that you weren't rude or didn't feel the need to abuse or critisise anyone for their beliefs or their lack of what you percieve as real fight experience.
i hope you now understand you can get your piont across a whole lot easier than with abusive behavior.

vts

[captain]

though i should point out,that obviously,ground/grapple
has its place.and after using my first successful bong sau
[felt great]i was already thinking of restraint to follow up.

[PaulH]

Hi Rolf,

Your eloquent arguments in this thread of WCners against Grapplers have lot of insightful and well-documented merits. Thank you for sharing with us your thoughts. I'm sure many of people here are grateful and appreciative of your advices. I agree wholeheartedly on your analysis of the situation.

Best regards,

Paul

[Ultimatewingchun]

vingtsunstudent;

So then you agree with me that ...anybody...no matter how good they are...could occasionally (if not frequently) find themselves in a standing or groundfighting-type GRAPPLING situation, or perhaps both?

Yes or No?

[vingtsunstudent]

of course i do, but i feel there is more to this than what you may think.

gee, there are so many things to factor into the equation of a real fight that to say never is just outright silly.
here is one thing though, it may not always be a grappler who gets you to the ground, it may be you have just been unlucky, the fact your on the ground doesn't mean that they are a grappler though, let alone a skilled one who too has fought on the streets and dealt with all the emotional and variable things that can go along with it. i sometimes get the feeling that everybody thinks all grapplers are good, however some are garbage just as some are garbage at wing chun or whatever.

whether you believe what i have said of my experience or not, the fact is it is all true and i have only been there twice when really, really drunk. does that mean i might not end up there for other reasons? maybe not, but i'm confident in what i know and have already experienced enough to believe in what i am doing.

just as it is true that i have seen quite good grapplers having trouble getting drunks down into a controlable position.
i have also trained with a guy i used to work with who was grappling regularly and from on our knees he couldn't get close to me to finish me to the mat, all he kept saying was 'stop using that wing chun **** would ya'.

another friend who is no longer(RIP neil) with us named neil bodycott fought in the first aussie UFC,(he won his first fight against simon sweet the new zealand kickboxing champion but suffered a broken jaw and yet still went out to fight mario sperry only to have the towel thrown in by his corner because of the jaw- mario later upon finding out about his jaw told him how tough he was and personally invited to him to brasil to train with him) one day laughed at one of his more regular students and said if you think this it why don't you try to take anthony(that being me) down. he went onto explain to him how some poeple have excellent footwork, can counter and train specifically for close range fighting.

like i said there are just to many variables in real combat so anything is possible, but with good training and the understanding of their game i am yet to find that there isn't a question that wing chun has not had the answer to.

combat and the experiences of it differ for everybody and although yes, i semi-agree with you, i don't think you have a strangle hold on what poeple do and do not need to look after themselves and i don't think you need to critisise them for not believing in your way of thinking, let alone the fact that at first you were doing it without justifying your reasons as to why you felt the way you do.

good luck in your training and your beliefs.
vts

[Ultimatewingchun]

vingtsunstudent:

First of all - I gave plenty of reasons on earler threads about why I believe what I do about grappling - long before you jumped into the conversation..and when folks started giving me mindless answers and abuse about it...I decided to get ugly also.

Secondly - since you again are insisting that I take you seriously about yor streetfights - then I claim the same thing...ie.- yes it's all true about what I said happened (and what the doctor said could have happened)...to my eyes.

It works both ways, pal.....

[russellsherry]

hi guys
on sifu david peterons book it is a very good, read, david has done his sifu proud , on the wsl way for rolf sifu great news about, your book being back in print in a round about way some of my gung fu came fro it as sifu david what i mean i also arggre
with vts student one should be openmined about grappling if your
down on the ground bit hard to do bong sau and deflect his elbow
peace russellsherry and guys look out for sifu williams new books
out soon

[captain]

Dear Herr Clausnitzer,

since you have begun an updated version of your wck book,and
since all [yes all] of us on this site,will buy not one but two
copies of the book.[one for ourselves,and one for our karate
friend who has yet to see the light].I think it is your duty to
allow all of us to pose one question to you,that will be fully
answered in your forthcoming book.now how's that for an
idea,eh?i think the wck world is now quite ready for a book
of some considerable volume and length.

Russ.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Rolf:

Yes, there is a significant difference between the two wing chun systems, although the 8 years spent with Moy Yat did acquaint me, I would imagine, with quite a few of the same principles, techniques, and training methods as the system you learned with Wong Shun Leung. I don't mean to suggest, however, that Moy Yat was at WSL's level of expertise, knowledge, or fighting skills, for clearly he was not. I have great respect for Wong Shun Leung.

In fact, I recall vividly a conversation I had over dinner with Moy Yat and some other students just a few months after first joining his school in 1975...asking him who, in his opinion, was the best of all of Yip Man's students, in terms of being a fighter. Without a moments hesitation, the answer was: Cheung Chuk Hing, Wong Shun Leung, and Bruce Lee were the best...Moy Yat gave an honorable mention, kind of like a second tier, if you will, to Victor Kan and someone named Ug Chat...(I found out later that Ug Chat was a bit of a loner type who never sought much attention, but who was evidently, in Moy Yat's opinion, a good wing chun man. He also said that UC was Duncan Leung's sifu).

In one of William Cheung's books, MY LIFE WITH WING CHUN, there are some great photos of he and Wong Shun Leung alone together during two different visits my sifu made back to Hong Kong - in 1975, and then again in 1982...including 6 photos of the two of them engaged in some friendly san sao...visiting Yip Man's grave... and just hangin' out at WSL's school. One gets the impression that they were friends.

As regards your reply to my ideas about wc and grappling - you made some interesting points about some of the "official" history concerning grappling vs. striking ( ie.- Gene Lebell over Milo Savage); as well as the "unofficial" opinion that on the street things don't necessarily work out the same way...I agree.

You also said that ..."learning some rudimentary grappling and /or experimenting with with what works on the ground using WC concepts and techniques is good...and a good WC man can find ways of simplifying and enhancing grappling moves whilst learning to grapple..." Again, I agree.. and I have experimented
with the very things you mentioned..BUT...

Quite a few Catch Wrestling principles, strategies, and techniques
are so devastating of and by themselves, when done properly, that they need little, if any, enhancement and simplification....

At other times, it does make sense to change their strategy a bit and use a palm strike or a punch, for example, to set up a final submission...ALTHOUGH...many of the "no-no" techniques that you described - "striking" type attacks such as eye gouges, fish hooks, attacking the windpipe, elbow and knee strikes, etc. were originally a part of the Catch arsenal, to end a fight very quickly...
before such techniques were outlawed in organized events.

Transitioning back and forth between striking and grappling is a big part of what I have been working on with some of my students for some time now, both on the ground and while still engaged in stand-up...ie. - kick, pak/lop da, sweep behind-the-knee takedown, punch the head, finish with an elbow lock...by way of a crude example.

The most interesting paragraph (for me) in your post was:

"I could be deluding myself, but my experience of WC over the decades, including the input of numerous colleagues and friends is that a well trained WC practioner, with fighting spirit, and the appropriate footwork (I urge all readers to read or reread David Peterson's excellent article "Tackling the Tackle" on Rene Ritchie's site), will be able to stop a grappler in the majority of sparring or streetfighting scenarios, but there will always be skilled, tough grapplers who will take their opponent down, no matter what..."

Although I haven't yet looked at "Tackling The Tackle" (and I will),
it is my belief ...BY THIS POINT IN TIME...

that stopping the attempted takedown with strategies and techniques designed to... ALWAYS...help you maintain an upright standing position is...TOO RISKY. I agree that anti-grappling moves often work quite well; but as you said...THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THAT SKILLED, TOUGH GRAPPLER WHO WILL TAKE THEIR OPPONENT DOWN, NO MATTER WHAT...

Some attempted takedowns are so good that the counter has to involve going down to the ground with them, hopefully right into superior CONTROL and a SUBMISSION... It takes an excellent wing chun move (like tan sao, for example...to stop a good lop sao...if you get my drift).

When I first started posting on this website about two months ago I said that I advocated striking, kicking, grabbing, and grappling...and was accused by many folks of being vague, simplistic, incompetent (I grappled because my WC was no good),
disloyal to WC...or all of the above...

Perhaps my latest posts will change some of that...but whatever the case may be...

My philosophy and approach to martial arts has always been that the strategies and techniques be geared to no-holds-barred....
REAL life scenarios...everything else is secondary.

I love WING CHUN, and I love CATCH WRESTLING; and since I believe that the one is the best standup and the other the best grappling system there is...so why not make a happy marriage, since, in a streetfight, anything can happen.

[PaulH]

Hi Victor Sifu,

I would like to add further to your post that one of the WC treasure house of knowledge and skill is right here in the USA in the person of Hawkins Cheung Sifu. It is too bad that he prefers to have a low profile. I hear often his control skills is very Yip Man-esque. I'm sure his students can tell you more in intimate details.

Best wishes,

Paul

[Grendel]

Originally posted by PaulH
Hi Victor Sifu,

I would like to add further to your post that one of the WC treasure house of knowledge and skill is right here in the USA in the person of Hawkins Cheung Sifu. It is too bad that he prefers to have a low profile. I hear often his control skills is very Yip Man-esque. I'm sure his students can tell you more in intimate details.

I have heard that Hawkins is teaching Taiji currently but plans to soon retire from teaching. I don't know about his skills, but at least he was a student in Yip Man's school in the late 50s. That should mean something. Also, he was a close bud of Saint Bruce in high school. Maybe some of the magic and charisma rubbed off on him. :p

Regards,

[PaulH]

Hi Grendel,

If I hear a same story is repeated often enough, therefore it must true! Ha! Ha! Seriously from accounts of different people I gather while working for the homeland security, they all say he makes them feel like clumsy oxen and powerless as they try hit the tiny man . I venture to say that he shuts off their engines with a Yip Man Trademark.

Regards,

[Ernie]

i train with hawkins once in awhile he comes to my sifu's school on the weekends and makes us all feel like big clumsy rag dolls . he has a very advanced level of sensitivity and once he has layed hands on you have fun your going for a ride , he even has skill at closing the gap and taking on the shoot , very impressive but a life time of experience will do that for you . and don't be fooled by his size he can take a punch and give you back more than you expected. over all he is a very deep well of wing chun information and the more advanced training concepts his ability to control you with out haveing to hit you is by far what seperates him . to qute him '' let the others be loud but you be quite like a whisper '' it's hard to get him to show what he's got but it is well worth the effort . problem is most of us arn't skilled enough to understand what he is doing....

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Ernie
i train with hawkins once in awhile he comes to my sifu's school on the weekends and makes us all feel like big clumsy rag dolls . he has a very advanced level of sensitivity and once he has layed hands on you have fun your going for a ride , he even has skill at closing the gap and taking on the shoot , very impressive but a life time of experience will do that for you . and don't be fooled by his size he can take a punch and give you back more than you expected. over all he is a very deep well of wing chun information and the more advanced training concepts his ability to control you with out haveing to hit you is by far what seperates him . to qute him '' let the others be loud but you be quite like a whisper '' it's hard to get him to show what he's got but it is well worth the effort . problem is most of us arn't skilled enough to understand what he is doing....
Hi Ernie,

You're lucky to have him train with you. He sounds like the real deal. Does he ever share any stories about him and Bruce Lee?

Regards,

[Ernie]

he has a few but he is more interested in talking about the higher levels of wing chun and how to develop it , that's what he pounds in our heads when we hang out , i'm a bruce fan and have some very rare things like video and what not when it comes to him , so if there is more that comes out in conversation with hawkins i'll pass it on .

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Ernie
he has a few but he is more interested in talking about the higher levels of wing chun and how to develop it , that's what he pounds in our heads when we hang out , i'm a bruce fan and have some very rare things like video and what not when it comes to him , so if there is more that comes out in conversation with hawkins i'll pass it on .
We will all read your posts about Hawkins' insights with great interest. Ask him if he's got a book in him. I bet he's got some really terrific stories.

Regards,

[Ernie]

i'll leave hawkins stories to his students , i'm not the best authority as i consider him a friend and a senior , and i like to keep what is personal to myself internet stuff can get way to wierd , if you want stories on gary lam , no problem that is my wing chun sifu . attribute development ,trainig methods ,and i have a deep resource for any pfs jkd questions , these things i will speak on openly

[PaulH]

Hey Ernie,

Very good that you do that. I do have a an exclusive copyright on Hawkin Cheung Sifu's secrets. Ha! Ha! Seriously, I am frankly amazed that we don't see such high skills mentioned often in the magazines and various forum discussions. I would urge every one to try to visit Hawkins Sifu at least once and learn what he has to offer. You may witness some Yip Man's skills from so few of the old H.K. students left with us today.

Regards,

[Rolling_Hand]

I do have a an exclusive copyright on Hawkin Cheung Sifu's secrets. >>PaulH

----------------------------------------

"Hawkin Cheung Sifu's secrets"

Are you talking about Hawkin Cheung's wooden dummy?

[PaulH]

Hey Rolling Hand,

Your seemingly hectic hand rolls to nowhere with this. It's just a joke! Ha!Ha!

Regards,