Fist of Penetrating Hammer

[Jotaro Joestar]

Has anyone heard of the form Fist Of Penetrating Hammer/Cha Chuo Chien? I believe that it is a seven star mantis form.

[Stacey]

thats what the neighbor's wife calls me.

[Young Mantis]

I believe you are referring to the form commonly known as "Stabbing Fist". In Cantonese it is pronounced as Tchahp Tchui Kuen". Your translation of "Fist of Penetrating Hammer" is interesting and somewhat literal in that the first character can be translated as penetrating or stabbing and the second can be translated as hammer but can also mean fist as in when using a hammer-fist strike. The last character while literally meaning fist means form or set. Almost all TCMA forms will end in the "kuen" or fist character and can usually be translated as form. In this case, we say, Stabbing Fist Form.

I believe Sifu Paul Eng has a book published on this form and you can check www.northernmantis.com/forms.html for a link to pictures for this form as shown by Sifu Tony Chuy.

YM

[Shaolin-Do]

You are right that penetrating hammer fist is a seven star form.
It is in fact the most advanced form in the entire seven star system. I learn it thursday. :)

[Jotaro Joestar]

I just learned the form on Sunday. I was trying to get as much information about it before Sunday. It is an awesome form, very vicious. You will enjoy it. I get to learn a golden mountain tiger form on the 19th, so I need to practice this form many times before then, so that I do not lose any of it.

Shaolin-do, which location in Texas do you go to?

[Skarbromantis]

Saholin-Do, I wouldn't go as far as saying "the most advanced form in the entire seven star system"

Its actully pretty basic.

Skard1

[northernJump]

hmm somthing in the water. I just started this form on saturday. Is it really the most advanced form in 7*. For us its the 4th form we learn after
bung bo, Bahk Yuen Tao Tow and Sup Baht Sao
I thought that Mui Fah Kuen and others were more advanced than Tchahp Tchui.

[MantisifuFW]

In Chut Sing Tonglong, (seven star praying mantis), Chop Choi is not considered an advanced set in any of the branches either on the mainland or elsewhere. It is an important set, regardless, that focuses on the long fist techniques of the system in a mantis setting. Probably created by Wang Yongchun in the late 1800's, it is primarily Gong "rigid" rather than Yau "flexible" energy. As for techniques the set teaches the Sup Jee Choi "Character Ten" punch and the Sup Jee Towie "Character Ten" kick, the Hoc Fu Tao Sum "Black Tiger Devours the Heart" as well as the emergency technique series Coy Saam Sao.

It is one of my favorite sets.

Hope this helps.

Steve Cottrell

[Tainan Mantis]

Shaolin-do what are the other Mantis forms in your school?

[Jotaro Joestar]

I have heard that Fist of Penetrating Hammer/Cha chou chien is often considered the most powerful of the mantis forms and the most sought after.

[BeiTangLang]

What system/style/family are you learning?

[MantisifuFW]

Joestar,

In terms of Gong Ging or "rigid power", Chop Choi does not possess this kind of energy to the degree that the Dai Fan Che does, (Dai Fan Che is pretty much acknowledged as possessing the highest percentage of Gong Ging). So in terms of that particular kind of combat power it is not the greatest.

On the other hand, Say Lo Bung Da is easily equal to Chop Choi in terms of its use of long energy or Chang Ging. (Say Lo Bung Da being another long fist Tonglong set also probably created by Wang Yongchun). Also Say Lo Bung Da offers more in kicking and a greater variety of techniques.

As such, I would encourage you to question the source providing you information on this set further. In what terms is he evaluating the power of the set if not from hard or long energies; the qualities that are most present in this set? I am intrigued by the description and would enjoy knowing the measures employed.

Finally I had not heard Chop Choi described as one especially sought after by seven star practitioners, (though I value it highly myself). I would be interested in your perspective on this aspect also.

You raise a number of very interesting perspectives. I appreciate your being willing to share.

Steve Cottrell

[Shaolin-Do]

Some of the mantis forms that I know Ill learn within the next year are... Penetrating hammer fist, White monkey comes out of the cave, White monkey hides the peach, ****.... theres a lot more.... Ill get the names of the rest of them tomorrow and post them up.

[NorthernMantis]

Hey Shaolin-Do...

Whatever you do becareful in the main forum or better yet try to avoid it at all costs. Many polotics are afoot!

Peace

[Jotaro Joestar]

The Cha Chou Chien that I am learning appears to somewhat different than the form on this webiste: www.northernmantis.com/forms.html

Many of the moves are similar, but there are many hammer fists to the head and groin. It is hard to tell a form from a series of static pictures but I could not see that from the link above.

[Shaolin-Do]

Northern mantis : No kidding!
its alright though... I have a light heart and a hot tounge. Its just the internet... :)
Remember that half the people you meet on the internet live a lie, hiding behind their computer monitor. If people get testy, its just as easy to dismiss as to read. anyhow....
happy posting. ;)

[MantisifuFW]

Joestar,

There is variation in this set among the different branches of Seven Star, to be sure. I myself have reviewed and discussed Chop Choi in its HK and mainland versions among the different branches (as it is one of my favorite sets) and have found that though there are significant differences, (even among versions taught in different decades by the same teacher), essential aspects of the set remain the same. That your version varies somewhat is not unusual in any way.

By the way, what lineage of Seven Star are you studying? (For my reference as it seems you might have a variation that I have not seen). I have reviewed this form in its HK, Shanghai, Yantai, and Qingdao versions.

Also if you could define the parameters used by your branch in why this set is valued as it is I would greatly appreciate it as it seems to be a perspective unique to your style.

Thanks again,

Steve Cottrell

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Jotaro Joestar
I just learned the form on Sunday. I was trying to get as much information about it before Sunday. It is an awesome form, very vicious. You will enjoy it. I get to learn a golden mountain tiger form on the 19th, so I need to practice this form many times before then, so that I do not lose any of it.


Congrats on the new form. Chop Choi is alot of fun definitely has a unique cadence to it. Vicious ? Welcome to the world of 7 Star where all forms are vicious.

I strongly recommend writing out the steps of the form. I have all my forms written out in MS Word, these files are now an invaluable asset.

UM.

[MantisifuFW]

Joestar,

I forgot to mention in previous post another aspect of this set. It is considered by most to be derived from the techniques of Tai Jou Cheung Kuen or the Song Dynasty Long Fist which is one of the eighteen styles that make up Tonglong. Chop Choi Kuen was created much later though after Wang Yongchun, a champion fighter in the Long Fist style, was defeated by Li Kuaishou. After his defeat, Wang became the disciple of Li and learned Tonglong.

To the Tai Jou Cheung Kuen already present in Tonglong, Wang added his own specialized expertise in Long Fist, creating the Chop Choi Kuen.

Anyway, I would still like to know what line of Tonglong you are studying, as you opened this thread and many have contributed the information you sought, and the measures by which your line values this set. I, especially, would like to know.

Great topic,

Steve Cottrell