Martial Art Weightlifting Mythos?

[Black Jack]

I was in wonderment if their are still traditional chinese gung fu players who believe that resistence training is negative for their martial art practice?

Is this thought process debunked or is it still a mainstay?

Not looking to have a troll-fest just looking for discussion.

[Stacey]

traditional sifus lifted weights.....they did it for strength, not bodybuilding.

[jon]

My Sifu teaches traditional Taijiquan and Baguazhang.
He was also a competitive body builder and has many old pictures and trophys from his days as a competitor.

At the age of sixty and being considerably smaller than i am he can still pick me up of the ground and over his head like Im a child.

He actualy avidly encourages wieght lifting to increase power and is still active in using weights and resistance training himself.


My old Hung sifu used to sit in stance holding onto free weights at arms length and sholder height - then again he was scary as hell :)


I personaly think the idea that weight training is bad is a crock, the only time it becomes bad is if its *all* you do and your joints and tendons are not as flexible - hence it starts to sacrifice speed. As long as flexibility is kept up and technique is still the priority then i cant see why anyone would not lift weights to increase strength.

[Royal Dragon]

I just tell people to lift in the moring, and do forms later to loosen back up. it works for me very well (When I do it)

[SevenStar]

yeah, there are. Check out the internal forum.

[scotty1]

John Wang on ef mentioned carrying large rocks from one place to another as a form of whole body weight training. Sounds cool.

[shaolin kungfu]

Count had shown me some pictures of traditional rock weights a while ago. Basically a large rock with a handle carved into it. They looked pretty bad ass.

In response to the original question, I'm pretty sure traditional cma never said weight lifting was bad, as long as it didn't intrfere with flexibility, speed, etc.

[Former castleva]

Many arts had their primitive resistance training sets,yes,with weights.
Modern weightlifting/bodybuilding is a different thing,if recommended.
It seems it is not too long when bodybuilding arrived to China by mr.Weider.
However,the sport earned recognition and was liked.

[NorthernMantis]

Those who claim that it is not traditional to lift weights or do some type of strength training do not know what they are talking about. There have always been some type of strength training involved in the martial arts wether it was done with simple body weight training or they used external implements or gadgets to help them increase in strength.

However like stacey said lifting weights were only geared towards strength and not to make your body more attractive although there were some who have reached those results. I looked at an old picture of an old hung school from back in the day and some of those students were ripped.

[Daredevil]

Yeah, there definately are weight training methods in CMA, but I think many of these are intended to train a style's particular method of power usage and not really to, say, build up your biceps like bodybuilding. Of course, that's sort of obvious.

For example, in Baji we do an exercise holding containers (either empty, or filled with water and sand) in our hands in various ways (kinda hard to describe exactly). This is not to train the strength of our arms, hands or such, but rather to train our connection. The "lifting action" isn't really felt in our hands, but rather where the upper and lower back connect.

A very interesting method of training and one that is also found (so I hear) in the Shaolin Tendon Changing Classic.

[Royal Dragon]

The way I see it, you want modern strength training for sports performance.

I also think the ancient methods were much more sport specific than a general weight lifting/strength development program. I would say it is best to do both on a rotateing cycle. This give the best of both worlds, as well as the variety that has proven to be the best way to develop the body.

You can also develop your own methods by just looking at the work you are trying to perform, and finding ways to add resistance to it, and from there even exercises to develop the specific action.

[David Jamieson]

traditional kungfu training absolutely contains forms of weight training.

Stone lock training, weight rings, leg weights, rope weights (for wrists), and other forms of resistance training along with isotonic and isometric training.

Now, this sort of weight training isn't exactly the same as what we see in what I'll call olympic style lifting, but the principles and benefits are there.

I agree that Kung fu with no training with external is lacking something.

Remember too that heavy weapons are also a form of training with weight.

I've been working alot with the Kwan Dao I purchased from MAM over the last couple months and that thing is dang heavy! Prolly about 20 lbs or so. So, it's about double the weight of the Kwan Dao that my sifu taught me with and is quite a challenge to get through the set with even after a couple of months.

I work with the rings (5 on each arm) twice a week also and for staff training I use only my heavy oak staff. This is given my forearms and wrists an excellent workout which in turn makes my punches more stable and my general strength level much higher.

Forms have all sorts of benefits from lengthening and strengthening muscles and tendons to increasing bone density (in some forms).

They(forms) can also be very aerobic. In the material I have been taught (Bak sil Lum and Southern Shaolin Black Tiger) there is both aspects in the forms.

Another thing I've started to do regularly is running. This benefits me aerobically and translates as more stamina and endurance in forms practice (especially the more zippy forms from the bak sil lum curiculum).

A kungfu system, if taught in completeness is in and of itself crosstraining. (Though I have added the running :) )

But I do agree that external devices such as weights will bring much to your practice and ultimately your ability.

cheers

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
The way I see it, you want modern strength training for sports performance.

what in the world is that supposed to mean?

I also think the ancient methods were much more sport specific than a general weight lifting/strength development program. I would say it is best to do both on a rotateing cycle. This give the best of both worlds, as well as the variety that has proven to be the best way to develop the body.



you'd meet debate with the variety thing. especially if you're talking about strength training.

As far as the ancient methods, seems like you can only get so strong with them, as you would eventually turn what you are doing into an endurance exercise. for example, when I was in longfist, my sifu would work a heavy kwan dao - the light one was 20 lbs... I think the heavy one was like 50. eventually, he could wield the heavy one with lightning speed. from then on, working with that kwan dao worked muslce endurance moreso than strength because he couldn't increase the resistance.

[Former castleva]

I´m with SevenStar.

[Royal Dragon]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
The way I see it, you want modern strength training for sports performance.

what in the world is that supposed to mean?

Reply]
As opposed to just getting big.

I also think the ancient methods were much more sport specific than a general weight lifting/strength development program. I would say it is best to do both on a rotateing cycle. This give the best of both worlds, as well as the variety that has proven to be the best way to develop the body.



you'd meet debate with the variety thing. especially if you're talking about strength training.

Reply]
Maybe, mabe not. But everything I have read states it is a proven fact. Also, in my own practice, I have found it to be true. That is why I do things in cycles as opposed to doing the exact same thing forever and never changing it. Don't just do a single type of curl, do hammer curls, inverted curls or rotateing curls. Mx it up, do a variety.

As far as the ancient methods, seems like you can only get so strong with them, as you would eventually turn what you are doing into an endurance exercise. for example, when I was in longfist, my sifu would work a heavy kwan dao - the light one was 20 lbs... I think the heavy one was like 50. eventually, he could wield the heavy one with lightning speed. from then on, working with that kwan dao worked muslce endurance moreso than strength because he couldn't increase the resistance.

Reply]
So, get an even heavier one then. I can make you a Kwan Do out of 1-1/2 inch thick steel plate with an over sized blade, and a solid iron shaft that weights 100 pounds if you want. Hell, I can make you a 1000, pound Kwan Do, all you have to do is give me enough steel.

Also, Muscular endurace is important, along with cardio endurance. If you are going up against an opponent of equal size, skill and strength, and you can keep going after he runs out of gass, your gonn'a Kick is A$$

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
[i]Originally posted by Royal Dragon


[b]Reply]
As opposed to just getting big.

Okay, I thought you were goona go onto some spiel about why modern strength training would have no combat benefit.



Reply]
Maybe, mabe not. But everything I have read states it is a proven fact. Also, in my own practice, I have found it to be true. That is why I do things in cycles as opposed to doing the exact same thing forever and never changing it. Don't just do a single type of curl, do hammer curls, inverted curls or rotateing curls. Mx it up, do a variety.

there's part of your first mistake - curls... curls aren't a "functional" strength exercise. when talking about strength training, you focus on compound exercises - bench, deads, squats, etc. the biceps will get worked to a minor extent while doing deads and pullups - no need for a specific curl exercise. And definitely no need for hammer curls AND concentration curls AND barbell curls AND preacher curls... the idea of hitting the muscle from various angles is a bodybuilding thing - more aesthetics than strength - you don't need that - it's not efficient.

As far as variety goes, when strength training, you don't want to vary the exercises - you may want to vary the weight/reps used to produce the "shock" effect that you are talking about, but not completely change the exercise. Remember, when strength training, you aren't training the muscles per se, but the nervous system.

As far as the ancient methods, seems like you can only get so strong with them, as you would eventually turn what you are doing into an endurance exercise. for example, when I was in longfist, my sifu would work a heavy kwan dao - the light one was 20 lbs... I think the heavy one was like 50. eventually, he could wield the heavy one with lightning speed. from then on, working with that kwan dao worked muslce endurance moreso than strength because he couldn't increase the resistance.

Reply]
So, get an even heavier one then. I can make you a Kwan Do out of 1-1/2 inch thick steel plate with an over sized blade, and a solid iron shaft that weights 100 pounds if you want. Hell, I can make you a 1000, pound Kwan Do, all you have to do is give me enough steel.

that too, becomes inefficient. are you familiar with the rock pole? can you imagine a several hundred lb one? That's good in theory, but really isn't practical to have around, not to mention that not everyone has access to get those things. Anyone can get access to a bench and a squatting cage.

Also, Muscular endurace is important, along with cardio endurance. If you are going up against an opponent of equal size, skill and strength, and you can keep going after he runs out of gass, your gonn'a Kick is A$$

it's very important. But, you can't confuse the endurance exercises you are doing with strength, which some people do. just because you can do 100 pushups or hold a 20 min horse stance, that doesn't mean your muscles are all that strong.

[Laughing Cow]

Internal Martial Arts also contain weight/stremgth training methods.

But they need to be done while applying all the principles of the specific art.

Since we try to minimise the usage of "li" this will also need to be applied to strength training may it be traditional methods or in the Gym.

Thus STANDARD weight training regimes are often frowned upon.

[Former castleva]

"there's part of your first mistake - curls... curls aren't a "functional" strength exercise. when talking about strength training, you focus on compound exercises - bench, deads, squats, etc. the biceps will get worked to a minor extent while doing deads and pullups - no need for a specific curl exercise. And definitely no need for hammer curls AND concentration curls AND barbell curls AND preacher curls... the idea of hitting the muscle from various angles is a bodybuilding thing - more aesthetics than strength - you don't need that - it's not efficient..."

While not jumping on the wagon of functional,non-functional? etc. strength types,I would like to point out that where ever you´re going it is beneficial to vary exercises for the best of benefit.
Additionally,as in bicep related discussion above,those different movements are there for a reason (this has to do with developing areas of the muscle that monotonic repetition of one single exercise would be unlikely to produce)
Just as an additional note.

"Since we try to minimise the usage of "li" this will also need to be applied to strength training may it be traditional methods or in the Gym.

Thus STANDARD weight training regimes are often frowned upon."
Sounds controversial if not ridiculous but whatever floats one´s boat.

[SevenStar]

what ill effect does it have? Are you saying that if you take two guys who train taiji, and one also does bench press and deads that his taiji won't be as good? If so, why exactly?

[Former castleva]

SevenStar,
also see this discussion.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18758

[Laughing Cow]

Sevenstar.

The power generation differs.

Taiji uses whole body power, the whole body moves as one unit to generate power. Those are a fairly relaxed, circular and smooth movements.
Weight training tends to isolate muscle groups.

WE have weight/strength training like:
Pole shaking
Taiji Ruler
Taiji Pipe (Metal pipe filled with sand or stones)
Taiji Ball (Metal sphere size of a soccer-ball weighing 30kg)
etc.

But those are usually only trained AFTER a certain proficiency has been reached, as the taiji principles are applied to them.

Not saying that you can't weight-train, just that to a certain degree it might be more difficult to master the art.

Power & Strength are good, but in the beginning you need to forget about them till you reached a certain level and than you can apply/use them.

Example:
We have one muscle-bound guy in our kwoon that did an external style.
It is a lot harder for him to relax and NOT rely on pure muscle strength than for people that never did strength training.

CHeers.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Former castleva

While not jumping on the wagon of functional,non-functional? etc. strength types,I would like to point out that where ever you´re going it is beneficial to vary exercises for the best of benefit.
Additionally,as in bicep related discussion above,those different movements are there for a reason (this has to do with developing areas of the muscle that monotonic repetition of one single exercise would be unlikely to produce)
Just as an additional note.

kinda... go push on a wall. go pull a log. go spar. go grapple. go climb a mountain. Now, while you are doing all of those, do it with only one muscle group... you can't. For that reason, only doing a curl, leg extension, etc. is inefficient when compared to compound exercises. when your body performs some type of work, you are generally using multiple muscle groups. So, when you work out, why isolate them when that's likely not the type of work you will be doing? like I said, you can gain strength that way, but it's inefficient.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Former castleva
SevenStar,
also see this discussion.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18758

thanks, I'll check it out.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Sevenstar.

The power generation differs.

Taiji uses whole body power, the whole body moves as one unit to generate power. Those are a fairly relaxed, circular and smooth movements.
Weight training tends to isolate muscle groups.

WE have weight/strength training like:
Pole shaking
Taiji Ruler
Taiji Pipe (Metal pipe filled with sand or stones)
Taiji Ball (Metal sphere size of a soccer-ball weighing 30kg)
etc.

But those are usually only trained AFTER a certain proficiency has been reached, as the taiji principles are applied to them.

Not saying that you can't weight-train, just that to a certain degree it might be more difficult to master the art.

Power & Strength are good, but in the beginning you need to forget about them till you reached a certain level and than you can apply/use them.

Example:
We have one muscle-bound guy in our kwoon that did an external style.
It is a lot harder for him to relax and NOT rely on pure muscle strength than for people that never did strength training.

CHeers.

strength training focuses on multiple muscle groups. As for relaxtion, that depends on the individual. At a recent judo tourney, I was so loose and relaxed, people were warming up, and I was just standing there, seemingly staring into space. People came up to me asking if I was nervous or scared. At my first kickboxing match, the medic took my blood pressure three times before the fight because the first two times, my pressure was so low that I should've been dead. I wanted to test myself a few months ago, so while my wife and I were at the store, I sat down at the blood pressure checker. when the reading was done, it said "ERROR", which made me laugh. when my wife aksed why I laughed, I told her about the kickboxing story. I had her take her blood pressure, and I then I took mine without relaxing, just to make sure the machine wasn't broken before we sat down.

[Former castleva]

"kinda... go push on a wall. go pull a log. go spar. go grapple. go climb a mountain. Now, while you are doing all of those, do it with only one muscle group... you can't. For that reason, only doing a curl, leg extension, etc. is inefficient when compared to compound exercises. when your body performs some type of work, you are generally using multiple muscle groups. So, when you work out, why isolate them when that's likely not the type of work you will be doing? like I said, you can gain strength that way, but it's inefficient."
As a philosophic argument,all nice and good.I can see this but it does not make sense to me.

[SevenStar]

what doesn't make sense about it?

[Royal Dragon]

Taiji Ruler

Reply]
How is this a strength exercise? The Ruler is like a hlf an once tops. It's basically a piece of 12" X 1-1/2 " of pine turned down to look like a small candle stick. It is a tool for helping beginners get basic internal body mechanics. There is like NO weight to it, and no way to use it to generate enough resitance to build anything, let alone strength.

"there's part of your first mistake - curls... curls aren't a "functional" strength exercise. when talking about strength training, you focus on compound exercises - bench, deads, squats, etc. the biceps will get worked to a minor extent while doing deads and pullups - no need for a specific curl exercise

Reply]
Anthing that works the muscle will develop strength. Obviously, exercises working mulitple muscle groups in tandem are better for useable strength development. I was basicaly siteing that perticular example to illistrate my perspective on variety. Instead of doing only one version of an exercise, do several. It could be any exercise, Curls just happen to be what was right off the top of my head.

As for the weight lifting and Taiji, I look at it like this, internal body mechanics have a power multiplying effect on external motion. So, even if your useing internal body mechanics, the more externally stronger you are, the bigger the multiplyer, and the stronger your going to be internally.

[Former castleva]

"kinda... go push on a wall. go pull a log. go spar. go grapple. go climb a mountain. Now, while you are doing all of those, do it with only one muscle group... you can't. For that reason, only doing a curl, leg extension, etc. is inefficient when compared to compound exercises."
What does compound mean in this context?
A movement that is geared towards a single group (concentrated) is very important for it´s development.
You do not,as an example,solely bench press (how popular it may ever be among the adolescent) for pecs and triceps,this is not sufficient to train these muscles as a whole (source of observation being that of lifting)



"when your body performs some type of work, you are generally using multiple muscle groups."
Y´yees.

"So, when you work out, why isolate them when that's likely not the type of work you will be doing?"
To look at this from a bodybuilding approach,it is thought that proper form is important and should not be sacrificed.
Careful work should be given for each major group of tissue in order to develop it in balance with others,one should take care of this.To not take care of this can lead to unconcious "taking favourites" between muscles,underdeveloping muscles that one is not confident about and imbalance.
if one was to do a curl with a weight too heavy for one´s bicep (not a good idea) it would seem preferable to waste the movement by adding additional muscles into play (probably about any builder or lifter may find himself guilty of this in occasion) and wasting the movement.
Martial artist could argue that he does not need to train his hamstrings in detail because in kicking motion (like front kick) he does not use that muscle to extend his leg (again leading into nasty imbalance,considering that every muscle holds an opposing muscle/antagonizer (possible spelling?) )
This is also likely to show up "in nature".

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon


Reply]
Anthing that works the muscle will develop strength. Obviously, exercises working mulitple muscle groups in tandem are better for useable strength development. I was basicaly siteing that perticular example to illistrate my perspective on variety. Instead of doing only one version of an exercise, do several. It could be any exercise, Curls just happen to be what was right off the top of my head.

re hash of what I said earlier:


kinda... go push on a wall. go pull a log. go spar. go grapple. go climb a mountain. Now, while you are doing all of those, do it with only one muscle group... you can't. For that reason, only doing a curl, leg extension, etc. is inefficient when compared to compound exercises. when your body performs some type of work, you are generally using multiple muscle groups. So, when you work out, why isolate them when that's likely not the type of work you will be doing? like I said, you can gain strength that way, but it's inefficient.

[SevenStar]

however, to re-iterate, variation isn't the way to go in terms of strength training.

[Royal Dragon]

OK

[SevenStar]

for further info on that, look into periodization. Basically, periodization is a gradual increase in weight until you hit a stopping point, but then you start over at a point higher than where you began your last cycle. that's the type of variety you want.

[Former castleva]

"for further info on that, look into periodization. Basically, periodization is a gradual increase in weight until you hit a stopping point, but then you start over at a point higher than where you began your last cycle. that's the type of variety you want."
Yes.

[Royal Dragon]

OK

[diego]

i'm not reading this thread right now, but it's my opinion the hate on bodybuilders from tma's came about dissing western ways of fighting ala john wayne....anyone know when this issue first arose?.

[Former castleva]

Does such a hate exist diego?
If it does,all too bad.
Sounds very,very concerning. :cool:
What do you base this on?

"dissing western ways of fighting ala john wayne"
At here I must note that looking back to the past I can find myself guilty of taking sides with east/west issues which does not make much sense.All of the basis for this to be found in cultural bias and ignorance.
Now it is obvious that there is a world to explore in western ways of martial arts.If someone uses the actor John Wayne for his/even her reflection of western fighting arts,there is something missing out there.
It is a bit amusing to actually write on this but I´ll give it a try.

[IronFist]

Interesting conversation.

IronFist

[diego]

Originally posted by Former castleva
Does such a hate exist diego?
If it does,all too bad.
Sounds very,very concerning. :cool:
What do you base this on?

"dissing western ways of fighting ala john wayne"
At here I must note that looking back to the past I can find myself guilty of taking sides with east/west issues which does not make much sense.All of the basis for this to be found in cultural bias and ignorance.
Now it is obvious that there is a world to explore in western ways of martial arts.If someone uses the actor John Wayne for his/even her reflection of western fighting arts,there is something missing out there.
It is a bit amusing to actually write on this but I´ll give it a try.

ACCORding to my understanding americans used to fight like jon wayne until karate came around and peeps started springing eyeballs out of sockets and shredding groins etc...uno meet me at the parking lot three oclock type steez where they square off and have a manly bout of boxing...i always lol'd at that way of thinking like fight fare etc...when he falls let him get up and have another round....once guys like the hell's angels started taking up karate, by the 60's peeps were getting boot-****ed...and that progressed to now kids don't even scrap they will just shotgun your azz...so it's my opinion the tma's who dissed beefcake-jon wayne styles of fighting has been around for awhile, such as a article i read about kungfu pirates...it relayed about their was this noble british soldier gentleman in china on a boat when the pirates raided the ship...the nobleman stood his ground, drew his sword like a gentleman as one chinese pirate with a mix of monkey style and bjj proceeded to drop to the ground tackling his legs while climbing up the nobleman theirby severing his testicals with the dagger the pirate held in his mouth throughout the inital tackle.

so their has always been this issue of whitey fights stupid and his weight training methods are not as good for martial artists as the traditional weight training methods.

i gotta take a **** so this posts thought is erratic, but i know what i say to be true, i'm just curious when it started in america as bodybuilding hasn't been around that long.

point...whites fight stupid pretty much in general...take a native savage warrior give him a knife take a champion english gentleman fighter and the savge will eat the whiteboys intestines...ie whites became pretty stupid in their hand to hand combat methods sitting fat off the pig with their rifles watchtowering over the slaves...now the vikings they would have fought like the natives and the chinese pirates...either way it all relates to the issue that bodybuilding will make your kungfu tighta$$ compared to the tradtional training methods which build raw power.

follow me or is this post to scattered...:D gotta go pee!!!!!
ciao

[diego]

i meant give a savage a knife and a nobleman a knife and the savage will win because he doesn't stand their and just box like those retarded collonialists who sit their and reload their singleshots while the guys on the other field get their turn lol

[Former castleva]

"ACCORding to my understanding americans used to fight like jon wayne until karate came around and peeps started springing eyeballs out of sockets and shredding groins etc...uno meet me at the parking lot three oclock type steez where they square off and have a manly bout of boxing...i always lol'd at that way of thinking like fight fare etc...when he falls let him get up and have another round....once guys like the hell's angels started taking up karate, by the 60's peeps were getting boot-****ed... ..."
I´m not really following you in your post,brave it is though.
I assume you are referring to such things as rules,cultural approach to brawling etc. I wonder how this is linked to actual combat and all that you have said about supposed beliefs of others that there originally was no link to either.
Arts of karate and judo ruled in America during 60´s as far as I remember,being somewhat "new" in there and as a half-hearted counter-argument I should note that the myth of all Asians knowing martial arts developed. :D


"such as a article i read about kungfu pirates...it relayed about their was this noble british soldier gentleman in china on a boat when the pirates raided the ship"
What?
As we must both be "having fun" to a degree,I must note that China totally kicked arse in the opium war. ;)


"point...whites fight stupid pretty much in general...take a native savage warrior give him a knife take a champion english gentleman fighter and the savge will eat the whiteboys intestines...ie whites became pretty stupid in their hand to hand combat methods sitting fat off the pig with their rifles watchtowering over the slaves...now the vikings they would have fought like the natives and the chinese pirates...either way it all relates to the issue that bodybuilding will make your kungfu tighta$$ compared to the tradtional training methods which build raw power."
I do not know where you are coming from and how you got here lol.
I might be too tired to not have a laugh now.

:)

[diego]

CASTLE, i got here by turning on the computer:)

nah, i was just thinktyping trying to remember everything bad i have heard relating to western martial artists and their external methods of thought/fighting....prolly come back later to clarify.:)

[Former castleva]

" CASTLE, i got here by turning on the computer"
You mean you were directed right here when you turned on the computer? :)

"nah, i was just thinktyping trying to remember everything bad i have heard relating to western martial artists and their external methods of thought/fighting....prolly come back later to clarify. "
OK.
I´ll see then.This thread has the attributes to open a worm can but wé´ll see. :)
Everything you "have heard" relates pretty well,I have the idea that you were being about as serious as I was.

[Kumkuat]

ah taiji and weights. This is very debatable. Actually, internal martial arts and weightlifting in general is quite controversial. It's not like any type of resistance training was prohibited for people who trainined in internal martial arts though. For example, the chen village is still a farming village and people there still do manual labor. Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba's farm tools weight a lot more than normal farm tools. And so on. I'm sure doing squats, deads, bench, pull ups, etc., won't hurt your internal martial arts practice. But I don't think they will improve them that much.

Internal martial arts, if you take away the mysterious qi aspect of it, requires you to move in a certain way. Most of the power is from the waist instead of the upper body. The only type of upper body strength that you probably need is a strong enough frame to conduct the waist's power. Taiji ppl practice taiji slow so they can repattern the body to move a certain way. And if they do it that way correctly for a long time, they will get 'strong' in a different way. They won't be able to squat 3x their body weight, but stories show that ppl find they can hit or throw harder after good internal practices.

Also, people who do internal arts and want to incorporate weights will do that. They'll start with really light weights first because starting too heavy will cause old habits to come back (using their shoulders for example).

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kumkuat
I'm sure doing squats, deads, bench, pull ups, etc., won't hurt your internal martial arts practice. But I don't think they will improve them that much.

The idea is not to improve what you are training in per se, but you are giving yourself an extra advantage. Take grappling for example. Ideally, you want to remain relaxed and use good technique. Alot of times, this is very effective. BUT, there are times, like say, being mounted by someone considerably heavier than you, where the ability to contract your muscles that much harder may be the only thing that makes your bridge and roll attempt good enough to get him off of you. It's all about advantages. does MA training guarantee you'll win a fight? no, but it makes your chances better. Will strength training guarantee that your technique will be strong enough to win? no, but it's an extra ace in the hole that you may need.

Internal martial arts, if you take away the mysterious qi aspect of it, requires you to move in a certain way. Most of the power is from the waist instead of the upper body.

IME, everything I've trained in stressed using the waist. They tend not to emphasize, the qua, a rounded back, etc though, so I know what you are getting at.

The only type of upper body strength that you probably need is a strong enough frame to conduct the waist's power. Taiji ppl practice taiji slow so they can repattern the body to move a certain way. And if they do it that way correctly for a long time, they will get 'strong' in a different way. They won't be able to squat 3x their body weight, but stories show that ppl find they can hit or throw harder after good internal practices.

that's something that should come with training anyway. A good judoka can throw you lightly, or he can make your brain rattle if he so desires.

Also, people who do internal arts and want to incorporate weights will do that. They'll start with really light weights first because starting too heavy will cause old habits to come back (using their shoulders for example).

Once again, that's something that should come with training - nobody should start with heavy weights that they can't handle. That's how people get torn pecs, knee injuries from squatting, etc. it should be a progression.

[jun_erh]

1. Martial skill is mre difficult than weightlifting is what it says in "the 72 concumate skills f Shaolin" so, the stone locks and iron palm are, in a way, BETTER because they are MORE DIFFICULT than just weightlifting.

2. sme of the anti-weight lifting rhetoric may be like the bible saying dn't wear plaid on thursday r whatever. Largely symbolic.

I

[Kumkuat]

But moving 'internally' are not techniques on how to move. It's more like principles that people need to maintain. But I understand what your saying about how extra strength will help you in certain positions. Also that judo example you gave is more technique based. Practice the same throw over and over and you'll get good at it. While for internal practices, your whole body should develop the way of moving and can be applied to any qinna, lock, hit, etc., FWIW.

[Former castleva]

"The idea is not to improve what you are training in per se, but you are giving yourself an extra advantage. Take grappling for example. Ideally, you want to remain relaxed and use good technique. Alot of times, this is very effective. BUT, there are times, like say, being mounted by someone considerably heavier than you, where the ability to contract your muscles that much harder may be the only thing that makes your bridge and roll attempt good enough to get him off of you. It's all about advantages. does MA training guarantee you'll win a fight? no, but it makes your chances better. Will strength training guarantee that your technique will be strong enough to win? no, but it's an extra ace in the hole that you may need. "
Excellent.
To state otherwise is equal to saying that improved health is of no use.
Or the same as arguing that someone blessed with a good build is not cabable of working beyond that,willful ignorance or jealousy?
Improved coordination that one can achieve from decent strength training is nothing to make fun of either.
It is all plain advantage and benefit,it will not hurt.
Just like any athlete knows,well-rounded training is good.
Builders walk/jog or bike,hammer throwers lift...etc.

Anyways,some good articles.
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=30

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kumkuat
But moving 'internally' are not techniques on how to move. It's more like principles that people need to maintain. But I understand what your saying about how extra strength will help you in certain positions. Also that judo example you gave is more technique based. Practice the same throw over and over and you'll get good at it.

I'm failing to see the difference. by practicing an internal form 10 times per day, you get good at it, no? Also, don't think that jing can't be applied to a throw.... but, regardless of jing, how are you getting better? you are improving your mechanics. that's what makes the throw work, just like it's mechanics that make your internal style work.


While for internal practices, your whole body should develop the way of moving and can be applied to any qinna, lock, hit, etc., FWIW.

I would disagree there. I've seen people try to apply chin na on the ground and fail miserably. The principles don't just transfer to every situation.

[Sho]

Internal and external are two completely different fields. Obviously you shouldn't train internal arts the same way as you would train external arts. As SevenStar mentioned, repetition improves your mechanics and that is external "conditioning". You can't become proficient in internal arts by only repeating the movements. In internal arts, you should renounce the dualistic conception and combine your mind and body to function as a whole.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sho
You can't become proficient in internal arts by only repeating the movements. In internal arts, you should renounce the dualistic conception and combine your mind and body to function as a whole.

I would say that applies to external styles also.

[Sho]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I would say that applies to external styles also.I was just pointing out the most fundamental distinctions. Of course your mind and body have to work together as a whole in external exercises, but the governing attitude is different.

[Former castleva]

I think there is a saying "Internal martial arts are from internal to external".

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sho
I was just pointing out the most fundamental distinctions. Of course your mind and body have to work together as a whole in external exercises, but the governing attitude is different.

That may be the answer I've been looking for... what's the governing attitude?