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buddhapalm
06-25-2001, 08:49 AM
1. Does anyone have any information on Master Sun Yu Fung (Sun Yok Fung /Sun YuFeng) of Shanghai? He was a student of Shaolin Monk YuanTong.
2. Can anyone tell me the location in Canada of Sun Yu Fung's disciple named Ma Kim Fung (or Ma JianFeng ) ?
It seems that Sun Yu Fung taught some Northern Shaolin and/or Lohan at the Canton Ching Wu.
If anyone has any historical information on any of these 3 masters I would be most interested in hearing from you.
My e-mail is teleka@pacbell.net

Thank You

Thanks

r.(shaolin)
06-25-2001, 02:09 PM
If we are talking about the same person,
Ma Kim Fung, taught in Calgary, Canada for
a number of years and has moved to Vancouver.
I'm not sure but from what I understand he is retired.
One of his senior students still teaches in Calgary.
ops I see you wanted this by email : - (

NorthernShaolin
06-26-2001, 04:41 AM
Buddahpalm,

It's me, NorthernShaolin.

I just remember, GM Ma Ching Fung has a son in Vancover who is teaching in the Ma Family Association. His name is Danny Ma. One of Ma's recent senior student and a good friend of Danny is Jun Y. Ing who worked for the Government Telecommunications Agency. I've lost contact with him.

As for Sun Yu Fung, King of Sabers in Seven Proviences, I have some info on him. What specifically did you want to know? Hey, did you know that he taught Suk Kim, who played the villian with the large claw hand in one of Bruce Lee's movie?
:) :cool:

buddhapalm
06-26-2001, 08:21 AM
Thanks again for your help :) Do you know the contact address of Danny Ma, Ing, GM Ma Ching Fung or the Ma Family Association ?

Regarding Sun Yu Fung.
1. I would be most interested in knowing more about his life story. I heard he was a great fighter, running a protection service ?
2. Also what styles beside Lohan did he practice ?
3. Was his teacher Monk YuanTong of Shaolin ?
4. Does he have any other students/great-grand-students still teaching besides Ma Ching Fung's lineage ? I understand Suk Kim has no students.
5. Do you know what curriculum or forms he taught ?
6. Are there any photo's of Sun Yu Fung available.

These are some of my questions, but any information will be of help in my search.

Once again thanks "Northern Shaolin" and "R" for all your help.

NorthernShaolin
06-27-2001, 05:47 AM
Buddahpalm,

Sun Yu Fung was a very private person and did not like to talk about himself, hence many people do not know much about him except that he taught at the Ching Wu School in Canton in the 1920’s. After years of researching him including interviewing people who learned from him, this is a summary of what I know about SYF in a nutshell.

Sun Yu Fung has several teachers with his first was Chang Chan K’uei, nickname Big Saber Chang who was a student of the famous Shangtung Green Forest Robber, Ma Hsiang. All of Sun skills in sabers came from Chang. Sun also liked wrestling and would enter the local tournaments in Ching City which was not far from Peking. His best friend was Ma Lang and Monk Yuan Tung T’an taught both men his Shaolin Lo Han; officially called Northern Shaolin Yan Lo Han, with Yan meaning the third generation. Ma Lang became very famous in Shangtung while SYF became a security guard in the Chen Wei Piao Co. His saber techniques and his Lo Han was tested by many famous banditslike Liu Tien Hu and fighters in the five provences that the cargo was carried. By the late 1800, SYF was promoted to the Chief Body guard in Hopei Provence. Later he established his own security company called Ning Yuan Piao Co. Fame traveled fast and he became known as Thirteen Provence Escort Buerau Chief.. Meanwhile Ma Lang wrote his famous book called China New Wu Shu, 1911, with Yang Hong Xiu who later taught Wang Tzu Ping. Never could find this book.

Originally Huo Yuan Chia invited Ma Lang to teach at the Ching Wu school in Shanghai but instead, Ma recommended SYF and in 1921 SYF taught in Shanghai. Later that year he transferred to Kwangchou (Canton) Ching Wu. His curriculum was the standard 10 Ching Wu sets for the first two years then his specialty, BSL LH and it consisted of 18 hand sets. In addition he was known to teach five famous sabers and five famous spear sets besides the other usual weapons such as staff, hooks, daggers, Kwan Do, chains, etc. His favorite time in teaching was to spar all his best students at once blindfolded. None of his students could touch SYF but he was able to knock them all down.

The five sabers are: Pa Kua saber, Loose Wrist Saber, Split Door Saber, Foot Soldier Saber, and Plum Blossom Saber.

The five spears sets are: Raise Spirit Spear, Plum Blossom Spear, Five Tiger Spear, Splitting Door Spear, and Deity Spear

In his late years (at 63 years old), he liked to perform Eight Drunken Fairies Immortal fist set. He passed away at the age of 88 (in 1946). There is only one picture that I am aware of that exist of SYF.

He had 13 disciples: Hwang Hsiao Hsia (who is regarded as #1 disciple), Husang Hon Sheng (who taught Bruce Lee after he fought Wong Jack Man), Li Han Chu, Li Chung Chu (who was the first Ching Wu official to open a Ching Wu school in SF, USA in 1935 and I had the opportunity to meet), Jung Hwang Sheng, Ts’ai Tso Shih, Tai Chien (better known to us as Suk Kim,the villian in BL movie), Lin Hsi K’un, Sun Shao Chu, Sun Wen Jung, Shen Chao Wen and Lin Shao K’un.

In addition he had many students such as Ma Ching Fung (who is Wong Jack Man’s second teacher), Lin Shao Lui, Sun Wen Yang, Yi Cho Jen, Liu Ching Kuei and Chen Te Chien.

Many of these disciples and students have passed away or are very old now. Some are living in Hong Kong, China, Canada, and in SF Bay Area but are all retired from teaching.

Hope this helps in your research. Please let me know.
:) :cool:

r.(shaolin)
06-27-2001, 06:16 AM
northernshaolin.
I recently found out and
sadly report that Ma Ching Fung past away
late last year at the age 86.
ä

buddhapalm
06-27-2001, 07:45 AM
Wow ! Your depth of research is amazing !
Would it be possible for you to write a book about all the different histories of the BSL lineages and stories. I think it would be a most worthwhile endeavor.
Your answers brought up a few more questions.
1. Could you tell me any more about Monk Yuan Tung T'an. I assume he was a "Shaolin" Monk ?
Did he have any other students besides SYF and Ma Lang.
2. When SYF taught in Ching Wu, was Duan Da Form one of the 18 hand sets he introduced ?
3. Does Ching Wu teach all of SYF's sets, such as 5 saber, 5 spear sets etc ?
4. Besides Ching Wu and Sifu Wong Jack Mans lineage, do you have any contact information on students of the 13 students of Sun Yu Fung ? Especially in the Bay Area.
5. Any idea where I could get a copy of a photo of Sun Yu Fung.
6. Do you know what style of Kung Fu Big Saber Chang practiced, was it a Shaolin style ?
7. Green Forest Robber - Ma Hsiang. Sounds like he was a bandit or rebel. Did you have any more information on him ?

Sorry to overload you with so many questions.

Thanks so much.
:)

buddhapalm
06-27-2001, 07:47 AM
Thanks for the sad information on Ma Kim Fung..

NorthernShaolin
06-28-2001, 05:29 AM
Buddhapalm,

Monk Yuan Tung T’an was a monk from the Shaolin Temple indirectly and lived in the caves called Shaolin Caves. There are two caves near the Shaolin Temple in Honan and when the temple was destroyed in the 1700’s, 13 monks escaped and a few monks fled to these caves. They were known as the Lo Han Caves because the monks practiced NSL LH. When the temple was restored, some monks choose to stay at the caves and developed an off site shaolin like temple area where they taught the next two generation of monks NSL LH.

Monk Yuan Tung T’an taught only Sun Yu Fung and Ma Lang before returning the the mountains and never to be seen again. He told SYF and ML that his sole purpose of leaving the mountains was to seek students and teach his NSL LH before he passed away. Once SYF and ML completed their lessons, the Monk told both of them that they must teach or the style will fade. The total number of hand sets were 108 and were simply called Northern Shaolin Yan Lo Han. Or just Northern Shaolin Lo Han. Monk Yuan Tung T’an gave a secrete manual to SYF but it was never seen by any of Sun’s 13 disciples. As one disciple told me, SYF could not read or write so this 'so call secrete manual' was useless to him. Still rumors are strong that he had this manual. SYF only taught 18 hand sets of Lo Han because hat was all that he could remember out of the 108 sets. These sets were divided into 6 Hard, 6 Soft and 6 hard & soft. These sets had special breathing techniques.

During SYF time at the Ching Wu there was a set call Duan Da that was taught. Do not know if he personnally taught that set because he only wanted to teach the most senior disciples. I know for sure that Pa Kua saber and Five Tiger Spear is still being taught and maybe Plum Blossom Saber in the Ching Wu schools but the other sets are questionable at this time.

Big Saber Chang knew NSL but later learned Pa Kua and became more well known in this style. I’ve looked for more info on the Shangtung Green Forest Robber but came up empty. He was very well known years ago until the 1930’s then nothing but maybe a little hearsay about him. He had a classmate named Niu Kang who was well known in Fukein Provence. (SYF is headed in this same direction where he be known as a name in CMA but no body really remembers him. In another 20 years, Kuo Yu Chaang’s name will be the same and in 40 years the name, Bruce Lee, will be there too.)

I can get you a copy of a picture of SYF. No typical small asian guy who was built like a bear. It’s well known that SYF alone killed a whole stronghold of bandits armed with only his saber. He also had such an iron grip that when he grasped an opponent’s arm, he could break the bone in the arm by just squeezing it.

I am aware of only 3 of the original disciples alive and 2 are in HK and one in SF area. He Husang Hon Sheng’ school in HK still exist but he has since retired. He runs the HK Ching Wu school. The other is the actor Suk Kim. The one here in the states speaks only Chinese and is in his late 80’s or early 90’s. He too has retired from teaching

Hwang Hsiao Hsia recently passed away in China but he has a branch school in HK. Another student of Sun is Lin Shao Li who may have a school in HK, She is in her 80’s now. The only other school is Ma Ching Fung’s son in Vancover as mention by 'R'.


R,

Thanks for the information. Sad news.

:(

buddhapalm
06-28-2001, 08:32 AM
Thanks again.
A few more questions.
1. Has Monk Yuan Tung T'an anything to do with Yuan Tung Temple at all. I may be way off, but I found a Yuan Tung Temple on a net search ?
2. Sun Yu Fung remembered 18 hand sets. Do you know if Ma Lang knew any of the others sets from the 108?
3. Did Sun Yu Fung have any children or relatives that learned from him ? If so perhaps the secret manual was handed to them.
4. Was this manual supposed to be illustrations of the sets or descriptions (poems of moves)?
5. Did Monk Yuan Tung T'an teach any weapons sets to Sun Yu Fung (ie Pole, Moon Tooth Shovel)? And was Plum Blossom Spear from Monk Yuan Tong also ?

:) :) :)

NorthernShaolin
07-01-2001, 12:44 AM
Buddhapalm,

I do not think Monk Yuan Tung T’an is connected to the Yuan Tung Temple. Are you sure of this spelling? There was a temple called Yang T’ung Fu that was part of the five temples of Shaolin Temple. The other four were Fukien, Shansi Wu Tai, Kwangtung An Hui. These were large temples that were as big as Honan and taught Shaolin MA at the end of the Yuan Dynasty. However, Yang T’ung Fu was destroyed at the end of the Yuen dynasty.

Ma Lang had to know the rest of the NSL LH sets because SYF and ML learned together from Monk YTT. This is why I am trying to locate Ma Lang’s book which was written at the turn of the century and was revised as late as 1915. This book was very popular around this time and the title of his book is China’s New Wu Shu (Martial Arts). Ma Lang was very famous in Shangtung Provence and did not join Ching Wu when invited by Huo Yuan Chia because he was working a plan to teach his NSL LH at high schools and other outlets that would be supported by the military government. Everything was going according to plan but something happen to cause the government to stop the project. However during this period of 15 years, I sure that there were many students of NSL LH in the Shangtung area.

Sun Yu Fung had a son that he was very proud. His name was Sun Wen Yung and was in the Ninth War District General Chief of Martial Art Training Officer. Sometime between 1934 and 1935, he was killed in battle when the Nationalist made a big push to the north. SYF was teaching at Ching Wu at the time and with the sudden news of his son death, SYF went into deep mourning. He soon came to a new awaking in the truth of life and left Ching Wu. He went to help teach at the National Phycisal Association where his top disciple, Hwang Hsiao Hsia was teaching. At the end of WW2, SYF retired and went to the Wu Tai Mountains in Shensi Provence to become a hermit. Later he returned to his home in Honan Provence and passed away. If the manual was with his son, it is lost for sure, given the war and horrible conditions.

As far as what the manual contain, no one alive seems to knows. Sun Wen Yung’s partner, Li Hon Chia, states he never saw the manual and no one ever mention it all those years that they were together practicing and learning. He was very close to SWY. Generally manuals of this nature would contain exactly what you said, poems of moves which would not mean anything if one did not know the style already.

Yes, Monk Yuan Tung T’an taught weapons to SYF. The monk spade and shovel, Plum Blossom double chain, Ground Demon Staff, Plum Blossom Spear to name a few.
:) :cool:

r.(shaolin)
07-01-2001, 03:18 AM
Dear NorthernShaolin.

First of all thank you for your candor.
I'm trying to follow the sources of SYF's forms.
From your post I read that he only taught 18 of the Lohan Shaolin hand forms because that's all he could remember of what he was taught.
Were any of these 2 man forms?

You say all of SYF's saber skills came from Chang Chan (a student of Ma Hsiing who, from my
read of your post, was not a Lohan Shaolin student). Are we to assume that Chang taught him Plum Blossom Saber.

Yet you say that Monk Yuan Tung taught SYF Plum Blossom Double Chain and Plum Blossom Spear.
Are you sure that the Plum Blossom form are from Honan Shaolin Lohan Men?
regards
R.

[

[This message was edited by R. on 07-01-01 at 06:30 PM.]

buddhapalm
07-01-2001, 05:21 AM
The YuaTong/YuanTung temple I read about was in Kunming area ? I will double check the province.

It would be great to find a copy of Ma Lang's book, I shall try to look for it also.

A couple more questions:

1. Could you tell me where the National Physical Association was located ? ( where Hwang Hsiao Hsia taught )
2. Do you know the names of the Lohan forms ?
3. Do you know anyone practicing the Monks Spade (Moon Tooth Shovel)
4. Are there any books/video's showing Sun Yu Fungs Lohan style available for me to compare.

I talked to Danny Ma, Ma Kin Fungs son. He told me that Ma Kin Fung did teach my Sigung back in China. He taught him the Ground Demon Pole also known ( Especially to us ) as the (72 Moves) Shaolin Secret Pole.

Do you know where Ma Kin Fung taught in Canton, was it Futsan, or Toisan Ching Wu or KMT School ?
I would like to find out because I want to know who else my Sigung Dea Bak Doo may have learned from, since some forms we practice do not come from Ma Kin Fung (except Shaolin Pole and SYF's Saber). He must have had exposure to other masters in the vicinity. If I can find the location, perhaps I can find the missing link to the other potential teachers influencing Sigung Dea Bak Doo.

You said Sun Yu Fung was taught Monks Spade, Plum Flower Spear from Monk YuanTong. Our system also has these forms. I am not sure if they are the same, since there are many Plum Flower Spear forms. My spear starts with kicking the spear into action, the Monk Spade finishes with the Spade being swung onto the shoulder, just like Monk Lu Ji Sim paintings.

Look forward to more exciting answers.

NorthernShaolin
07-01-2001, 10:32 AM
R,

Yes there were two man hand to hand sets and they were not regarded as part of the 108 Lo Han hand sets.

After reviewing what I wrote, I should have proof read it before hitting the enter button. Thanks R for point out the confusion in my posting.

Chang taught Mi Tsung to his security guards and may have taught SYF these weapons such as Plum Blossm double chain and Plum Blossom spear. SYF was a service boy and cooked evening meals for the school. The practice room was just outside the kitchen and SYF watched everything. Chang had instructors from many places and SFY had an opportunity to learn many different things from many different styles. Later Chang found out what SFY was doing and make SYF fight some of his student. SYF defeated them and Chang accepted SYF as a student. It is more than likely Chang taught SFY the weapons.

Now, lets clarify the term Plum Blossom. It is a name of the set and not necessary a name of a style. When monks left the temple, many of them created their own weapon sets and thus called them whatever they wanted. Sometimes the name they used were descriptive while other were colorful names.

BUT...
Most of the CMA historians can trace most weapons to the shaolin martial arts and not to any particular style. Conversly, most styles did not originally have any weapons and adopted weapons into their style, i.e., Tai Chi Praying Mantis really only had one weapon, the 9 ring saber. All other weapons in the system are borrowed from another system. Same can be said about Eagle Claw, Ts'ai Li Fut and Seven Star PM.

However, this is not to say weapons did not exist before Shaolin. Shaolin borrowed many weapons and developed them to another level. The only real weapon that Shaolin developed to its potential is the staff as proven in the case where the 13 monks of Shaolin came to the aid of Emperor Tai Tsuang in defeating Wang Shih Ching's army at Lo Yang in the Tang Dynasty.

Later during the Tang Dynasty, three famous generals brought weapons to Shaolin temple in Honan. Cheng Yao Chin brouht the lance axes, Lo Cheng brought the Plum Blossom Spear and Kao Huai Te brought the Black Tiger Hammers. They taught the monks these weapons and many of the techniques were adopted into other weapons.

Therefore in one sense, there was a Plum Blossom Spear from Shaolin but not necessary part of Lo Han and not necessary the same one that exist today.

Buddhapalm,

Sorry but it is getting late and I'll have to get back to you later on your questions.

:) :cool:

NorthernShaolin
07-02-2001, 08:35 AM
Buddhapalm,

I do not know the exact location of the National Physical Association. Location that I have is Chuan Fu Tung Road in Chuan Hsin Tung Street in the Big Buddha Monastery but it does not state what city or province.

As far as the names of the NSL LH sets, they were just numbered as 1,2,3 ...etc. However, after WW2, when Hwang Hsiao Hsia returned to his school, he taught 10 sets which everyone automatically referred to NSL LH. The sets were called Training Hand set, Training Step Set, Descending Dragon, Humble Tiger, Panther Fist, Attacking Elephant, Graceful Lion, etc. During his 8 years away from his school he met many different masters and learned their style. As a result, he then composed these ten sets which composed the best techniques which is a composite of different styles.

I do not know anyone who learned or currently practices the monk spade from SYF. There are no videos on NSL LH that I’m aware exist. However there is written documentation with photos on NSL LH Sparring set called Nian Shou Chuan. There are actually two books, one in Chinese ( Shao lin Chuan, 1985, for $10.95) and the other is in both English and Chinese ( Shaolin Kungfu by Li Ying Jie, 1988, Wan Li Book Co, LTD. for $9.95.) Both books are at East Wind Book store in SF. The first book ( 6 x 8 inches- red cover) contains three sets; China’s Best of South/North Shaolin that was composed by one of SYF’s disciple, Husang Hon Sheng; NSL LH sparring set (Nian Shou Chuan); and Flying Swallow of NSL or Jeet Chuan (Weaving Fist) which is part of the standard 10 Ching Wu sets. The second book (7 x 10 inches) contains only NSL LH sparring set, Nian Shou Chuan.

Ma Ching Fung opened his own school in HK and called it Ching Fung Martial Arts Association. I do not believe nor did I read any reference that he taught at KMT. However he did teach part time or as a guest instructor from time to time at Ching Wu in HK.

I do not know the Monk spade but the techniques for your spear set contains the same opening as the Plum blossom spear that I know.
:) :cool:

buddhapalm
07-02-2001, 09:49 PM
Thanks NorthernShaolin.

I researched Big Buddha Monastery/Temple and found this:
"In the late 1760s, Hung Hei Kwun was a tea merchant. On a business trip to Kwantung Province, he had a dispute with some Manchu Nobles. In anger, he abandoned his tea business and asked to be admitted to the Fujian Shaolin Temple. Monk Sam Tak and Abbot Chi Zin (also called Gee Shimn Sien See), who was from the northern temple, instructed him and after only six years was considered the best layman follower there (among about 100 or so there). The Heaven and Earth Society learned his Hung Gar style in secret at Shaolin and used it to combat Manchu guards. But, around 1803, the Ching sent troops to Fujian and destroyed this temple also, forcing many to flee. Some say about 1,000 monks were killed and about 30 escaped and scattered further south. Among these were Abbot Chi Zin, Monks Sam Tak, Hung Hei Kwun, Choi Hin Fook, and Tze Sai Fook.

Hung Hei Kwun fled to Kwantung Province and eventually began
secretly teaching martial arts at the Big Buddha Temple in Kwantung."

1. Do you think this same Big Buddha Temple could be the one where Sun Yu Fungs student "Hwang Hsiao Hsia" was teaching (after Hung Hei Kwun of course)?

2. Also the surname "Hsia", is that the same as Dea or Tse in Cantonese ?

3. Regarding "Ching Fung Martial Arts Association", is that meaning Clear Wind or Sword Wind ?

4. You said about Sun Yu Fung - "In his late years (at 63 years old), he liked to perform Eight Drunken Fairies Immortal fist set."
Do you know what this set looks like ? does it use two fingers, like the Tai Chi Sword hand ?

5. Have you ever heard of the master Leung Tim Chu (Leung Tien Shu) and his grandson in San Francisco, Wong Tim Yuen (80 years old ?)?

Rgarding the photo of Sun Yu Fung, it would be great to have a copy.

Thanks again NorthernShaolin, you have opened up many doors in my research and I appreciate your patience in answering my questions.

:) :) :)

buddhapalm
07-04-2001, 09:14 PM
NorthernShaolin,
I bought the book you recommended "Shaolin Kung Fu" by Li Ying Jie. Its very interesting. The Sifus demonstrating the form were Wong Kin Fung (any relation to Ma Kin Fung ? )and Cheng Ho Wah. Many of the moves in the book are similar to my system.
Do you know where these teachers are located or any way to contact them ?
The other book I could not find.

Thanks

NorthernShaolin
07-06-2001, 09:37 AM
Buddhapalm,

I do not know if it is the same buddha temple.

Hisa is not the same as Dea. Dea is a family surname.

The school Ching Fung is named after Ma Ching Fung. Yes, it translates to Sword Wind.

I’ve only seen the set in book form, never live.

Wong Tim Yuen! Is he the same Sifu of Southern Shao lin who had a school on Sacramento street in SF?

I ‘ll try and get you a copy of SYF’s picture.

I believ the two men in the book are students of Hsaung Sifu in Hong Kong.

I went to Eastwing today, Friday 7/6/01 and there is one copy left. You must have missed it. It is in the Chinese Bookstore in the basement, not the store on the 2nd floor. This book has a picture of SYF. Go for it!!


:) :cool: :) :cool:

buddhapalm
07-06-2001, 08:29 PM
Yes that's the Southern Shaolin Sifu. I didn't know where he taught though. Do you know what kind of Southern Shaolin he taught ? Do you know of any of his students ?
Sherman told me that he had heard my Sigung Dea had learned 2 handsets from him. That was news to me, but I just want to follow the lead.

Thanks for checking on the book for me. I will go today and get it. You said the two students in the other book were students of Hsaung Sifu. Was he related to Sun Yu Fung.

If you have a photo of Sun Yu Fung, I would be most endebted.

Thanks again NorthernShaolin, your assistance has been imeasurable !

P.S dont forget to let me know about the spear,
and I may be able to get "New China Wu Shu" book from Beijing, I will know in a week.
:) ;) :)

r.(shaolin)
07-07-2001, 02:39 AM
NorthernShaolin
Do you have any information on Sung Yi Shan
He taught NSL in Hong Kong during the 30's.
I think his son Sung Bai Yuan taught NSL in HK and was a brother or uncle of Ho Chang Hai.
r.

NorthernShaolin
07-07-2001, 09:25 PM
R,

I've been looking but so far I've come up with nothing. He must have kept a very low profile. Can you tell me more about him, like specifically which NSL did he teach? Was it Hua style? :) :cool:

r.(shaolin)
07-07-2001, 10:15 PM
He ran his classes on the roof of Zhi Qiang School. As well he taught classes for the Hong Kong Electrial Union. I think he was a memeber of the kowloon Chinese Herbalist Association.V

NorthernShaolin
07-09-2001, 04:54 PM
Sorry but I cannot find any info. That is to say that there is nothing written about him. I just do not have any historical reference sources on him.

Buddhapalm,

T.Y. Wong: He co-wrote a book with K.H. Lee titled Chinese Karate Kung Fu Original Sil Lum System for Health and Self Defence in 1961. This shaolin style came from a monk named Leong Sil Jong (Cantonese) who was from the shao lin temple. T.Y.Wong started to learn when he was 10 years old from Leong Tin Chee at the Central Kung fu Institue with classmate, Chew Lung. He also learn other branches of shao lin but do not know what they were.

The first set is Lin Wan Chuan or Continious and Returning Fist. The second set is called Mang Fur Har Shan or Tiger Descending the Mountain. The restof the sets were Gul Lung Ju Hoy or Nine Dragons at Sea, Die Lin Wan or Big Returning Fist and Lung Fu Sheong Wuie or Dragon and Tiger in Conference. Do not know anymore sets but I sure there are more.

As for weapons, he taught Double sabers, double swords, single sword, spear, twin daggers, single point staff and Kwan Do.

T.Y. Wong had a school in SF in the 1950s thru the 1960s and closed after he passed away in the 1970s. His school was called Kin Mon at 880 Sacramento Street.

I remember visiting his school in the early 1970s and Wong Sifu would sit in his horse during the whole time the class was practicing. His asistances did all the teaching and the beginners sat on a horse for at least six months before learning the first set. He was very traditional sifu and his style was southern. Many MA believe that it was a village style of Shaolin.

I do not know his son but he was teaching in SF in his garage, somewhere in either the Richmond or Sunset district in SF.
:) :cool:

buddhapalm
07-09-2001, 07:24 PM
Excellent !!!

Thanks again NorthernShaolin :)

Do you know which Shaolin Temple Monk Leong Sil Jong came from ? North or South ?

Where did you get the info on Mang Fu Har Sahn etc, is it documented somewhere ?

Do you know where the Central Kung Fu Institute was ? Was it Nanking or Canton ?

(Since I am asking about a different person ( not Sun Yu Fung/Ma Kin Fung ) I will start a new thread on this.)

If anyone could tell me anything about T.Y. Wong / Wong Tim Yuen or his Sifu, Leung Tien Chiu / Leung Tim Shu, then I would be most appreciative.

In particular I would like to know if anyone else knows T.Y. Wong's style today ? Does anyone know how to find T.Y. Wongs son in San Francisco ?

Thanks

[This message was edited by buddhapalm on 07-10-01 at 10:50 AM.]

r.(shaolin)
07-10-2001, 03:26 AM
NorthernShaolin,
Thank you for your time and effort.
kind regards
r.

r.(shaolin)
10-06-2004, 02:20 PM
NorthernShaolin possibly you can answer these ????s

Did Shun Yu Fung have any Shaolin brothers - or sisters for that matter
that trained with Monk Yuan Tung T'an?

Other that Ma Ching Fung, who were Shun Yu Fung's other senior students?

Did Ma Ching Fung train with any Shaolin teachers other than
Shun Yu Fung?


r.

NorthernShaolin
10-07-2004, 12:35 AM
r.

Question #1

Monk Yuan Tang T'an taught only two students near the Peking area. They were Sun (Shun) Yu Fung and Ma Lang, who went to Shangtung Province and open a school called Chi Nan Wu Shu. Later Ma Lang joined the Military, became one of the leading military instructors and was promoted to an officer. He wrote a famous text of which I have been searching for a copy with no luck, 'China's New Martial Arts', 1901 and reprinted in 1915. Ma Lang was more well known than SYF during this time and originally, the head instructor, Huo Yuen Chia, of Jing Mo Association wanted Ma Lang to come to teach at the original Ching Wu (Jing Mo) school in Shanghai in 1909. Ma Lang refused but recommended his classmate, SYF, because Ma Lang was tied up teaching the military his "new method" of teaching CMA to the soldiers and to High school students. About the early 1920's, Ma Lang's method of teaching CMA fell out of favor and he left the military. Disillusion he was never heard from again.

Question #2
Ma Ching Fung was not one of Sun Yu Fung's senior student. There were 13 well known disciples under Sun Yu Fung. They were Hwang Hsiao Hsia (who was the most well known and favorite of SYF), Husang Hon Sheng (who recently passed away in HK and also was known to have taught B. Lee basic Jing Mo sets), Tai Chien (also known as Shek Kuen in the HK movies), Li Han Chu, Li Chung Chu, Shen Chao, Jung Hwang Sheng, Ts'ai Tso Shih, Lin Hsi K'un, Sun Shao Chu, Sun Wen Jung (Sun Yu Fung's son), Shen Chao Wen, Lin Shao K'un.

There were other lesser known disciples: Chen Te Chien (whom I understand was the most senior disciple and a better fighter than Hwang Hsiao Hsia), Yi Cho Jen (another senior disciple over the 13 disciples mention above) , Liu Ching Kuei, Li Shao Ping (who was Ma Ching Fung's partner), Sun Wen Yang and Lin Shao Lui (only female of the group and lives in HK). With the exception of Li Shao Ping, I think most of these individuals were Ma Ching Fung's older classmates.

Question #3
Ma Ching Fung's first teacher was Wong Tak Hing (Cantonese) who taught BSL Lo Han, Plum Blossom Chuan, Wong's Tai Chi Chuan, and Wu Tang arts including Pa Kua Fist, sword arts, flying knives and hooks. His second teacher was SYF who also taught him BSL Lo Han Chuan. His last teacher was Kuo Yu Chang who taught him BSL.

MasterKiller
10-07-2004, 08:09 AM
How do you guys learn all this stuff? :confused:

norther practitioner
10-08-2004, 11:23 AM
Instead of fighting mixed dancing arts instructors, they read stuff, in sacred scrolls that you'll never see..


bwaaaahhaahahahahahaha

WanderingMonk
10-08-2004, 08:26 PM
I see, it is some type of secret club. flash my secret hand signs and arrange tea cups in several pretty patterns.

oopps, wrong club.

r.(shaolin)
10-08-2004, 08:53 PM
NorthernShaolin,

Thank you!
I did not know that Monk Yuan Tang T'an Sun Yu Fung and Ma Lang came from the Bejing area. (I did not know a good number of other
things you point out as well :-)))

I would be most interested in your thoughts about the relationship between Monk Yuan Tang Tan's northern Shaolin and the Shaolin coming from Kuo Yu Chang's lineage? Are there any common sets between the two - such as Tan Tui Shi Er Lu?

Re: Ma Ching Fung's teachers.
From which teacher do you think most of Ma Ching Fung's sets came from?

r.

NorthernShaolin
10-11-2004, 10:12 AM
r.

For clarification, SYF was not originally from Peking area.

SYF was born in Lian Wo Village, Ching County, Hepei province. (I estimated this year to be around 1860.) In his village, the most popular CMA was wrestling (shuai chiao) and SYF started to learn this art at the age of 12. Later, he wanted to learn more CMA and traveled to Peking when he was 16 years old. He ended up working as a cleaning boy for the Wei Chen Protection Services which was run by Chang Chan K’uei (Big Saber Chang) who had an open invitation to all CMA to cross sabers with him. This is where SYF learned his saber arts.

SYF and Ma Lang practiced together when Monk Yuan T’ang T’an happen to observed the two young men’s potential and decided to teach both of them BSL Lo Han. SYF later worked for Chen Wei Piao Company where he put to use his Saber and Lo Han arts for a living. A few years later, SYF would open his own escort protection business, Ning Yuan Piao Company where his Saber skills spread to Seven Provences.

Most of Ma’ CMA came from Wong’s lineage. Wong taught almost everything he knew to Ma. Now my SiSuks from Ma’s lineage tell me that Wong was much older than SYF and his Lo Han was the same as SYF’s. SYF did not accept student easily but Ma was accepted so SYF must have recognized that Wong’s Lo Han was the same or very similar to his own. Ma went to SYF to finish or complete what was missing from Wong’s BSL Lo Han curriculum.

Again my Sisuks from Ma’s lineage and including my Sifu, stated that the BSL Lo Han sets are taught after the completion of BSL hand sets.

However when SYF arrived at the Jing Mo school, he did not teach BSL but taught the required 10 standard Jing Mo sets before he would start teaching his own style, BSL Lo Han. (Perhaps he thought the 10 standard Jing Mo sets replaced the 10 BSL hand sets but no one could confirm this for me.) Never did he claim that he knew the 10 BSL sets but also he never talked about himself or what he knew either. It has been documented by his students that late in his life (80 years old) he would perform a drunken set and sometimes Eight Fairy Sword set which surprised his students because he never taught any of his students these particular sets. Also in addition, it is documented that SYF did know KYC and had at one time saved KYC’s life but there is no documentation that SYF ever taught him his BSL Lo Han. To add to the confusion, Ma did not learn his BSL from either Wong or SYF but from KYC. Now when Ma went to learn from SYF, Ma learned the Jing Mo Standard sets. So did Ma feel he had to learn what he originally missed from Wong and learn it from KYC? It appears so because later when Ma taught his curriculum, he would teach BSL before the BSL Lo Han.

To answer your question of what is the majority of Ma's sets came from is difficult to answer. What is confusing with Ma’s curriculum is that he would change it every time he moved to a new country. What he taught in Toi San, China (Plum Blossom, Wu Tang Arts and BSL Lo Han) was changed when he arrived in H.K. (BSL and BSL Lo Han) to Edmonton, Canada (BSL and Wu Shu) to finally Vancouver, Canada (Wu Shu and a little Lo Hon.

As for KYC teaching BSL Lo Han, none of his disciples learn it from him. I only found one document out of dozens of articles about KYC that states KYC learned BSL Lo Han but it did not make any reference from whom. The article leads the reader to assume he learned it from his BSL teacher, Yim Chi Wen. So did KYC learn BSL Lo Han, I do not believe he did. None of my Sisuks in KYC’s lineage stated that he learned BSL Lo Han. According to documentations, KYC left his teacher after learning for 11 years because of a family emergency, not for reasons that he completed his BSL studies. So the question left is: Was BSL Lo Han part of KYC teacher’s curriculum and KYC’s decision to leave because of a family emergency prevented him from learning BSL Lo Han?

Anyway, all I can tell you is based on my years of experience if the two are somehow connected. The concepts and principles between BSL and BSL Lo Han are exactly the same. The sets are both fluid and the techniques composition in both are connected in a seamless matter (not choppy). The flavor between the two is slightly different, because BSL Lo Han has a higher energy factor as one performs the sets.

The only differences that are observable between the two are IMHO the following: the BSL Lo Han techniques are performed in an explosive matter with more jumping and leaping and it contains quicker stepping with rapid changing of stances. Lastly the applications of BSL Lo Han are more offensive, very aggressive in nature and very direct techniques which leads an observer to think the applications are more practical than BSL.

Are any overlaping sets?

Currently no. Even the basic Tan T'ui set is different. KYC taught 10 row while SYF taught the required standard 12 row Jing Mo set. Did SFY know the 10 row Tan T'ui? Do not know. No one witnessed SYF ever practicing any basic sets.

However, this is not to say that there was not shared basic sets between the two in the distance past. One of the issues that I have with BSL is that besides 10 row tan T'ui, there are no basic foundation sets before learning the 10 core BSL sets. According to what I've researched, KYC learned specific basic foundation BSL sets but were not transmitted through his lineage for three reasons. One, most of his students had prior CMA knowledge so he skipped the basic foundation BSL sets. Secondly, he was required by the Kuo Shu government officials to add the Lien Bo set as a basic set to his curriculum. Thirdly, the Kuo Shu required their teachers to quickly teach their core style as soon as possible. So what were the basic Foundation sets of BSL? Because of these historical events mention above, I do not know the answer. If the two do share sets it would be in the basic foundation sets but as you can see I reached a dead end. Those who know the answers have already left to the world beyond communication.

Hope this answers part of your questions.

r.(shaolin)
10-11-2004, 02:30 PM
NorthernShaolin,

My gut feeling, based on what little I've seen and know of KYC's Shaolin and SYF's Shaolin, they have much in common with the Shaolin I practice. Recently, during the combined 141st Anniversary and the 33rd National Convention of the Chinese Freemasons in Canada, a number of TCM school did demos. I was interested in seeing that Raymond Wong's Shaolin has a great similarity to my Shaolin. We, and a number of other TCM school here, are exploring the idea of doing a joint demonstration here in Feb. It will be interesting to compare the similarity and differences with more sets being done.
......................................
re: It has been documented by his (SYF's) students that late in his life (80 years old) he would perform a drunken set and sometimes Eight Fairy Sword set.

It would have been great to have seen these. We have sets with both these names.
Ba Xian Jian - Eight Fairy (Immortal) Sword
In our Shaolin drunk-man actually has three bare-hand sets:
1. Ba Xian Xing Yi (Its full name is Ba Xian Xing Yi Da Jui Hang - Eight Drunken Fairy/Immortals Beating Nine Lines)
2. Da Shi Hui (Big Ten Gathering)
3. Zui Ba Xian (Shi San)

.................................................. .....................
re: Are (there) any overlaping sets?

What about characteristic basic techniques i.e.. Stances, characteristic combinations etc?
Did either KYC or SYF practice Qi Mei Tui - 'Stop at eye brow leg/eyebrow level kick" as basic training methods?


re: Currently no. Even the basic Tan T'ui set is different. KYC taught 10 row while SYF taught the required standard 12 row Jing Mo set. Did SFY know the 10 row Tan T'ui? Do not know. No one witnessed SYF ever practicing any basic sets.

Based on information in our tradition, 10 row Tan Tui was not practiced at Shaolin but the 12 row version was.

Thank you NorthernShaolin - good stuff!
r.

NorthernShaolin
10-11-2004, 07:34 PM
r.

Did either KYC or SYF practice Qi Mei Tui - 'Stop at eye brow leg/eyebrow level kick" as basic training methods?


Yes we practice this. But I do not know from which lineage it came from.

The demo in February sounds like and winner. Raymond has some very talented students from what little I saw.

buddhapalm
10-13-2004, 11:19 AM
Dear R.(Shaolin) and NorthernShaolin,
Sorry for being incommunicado for so long, I have had some major family problems for the last 6 months or so and have not been concentrating on much training, research or communication.

I shall be moving to L.A. for six months to open some business down there, I will be leaving in about a month. But I shall try to get back into the research and training etc.

My trip to Hong Kong and China was wonderful. I spent a week in Mongok, Kowloon and traversed the busy streets looking for masters related to my Dai Sigung Ma Kin Fung. I met a Sifu that knew him called Sifu Lai, he was a Sifu of the Lohan Society and descendant of Sun Yu Fung's teachings. We compared forms and techniques and went over applications for about 4 hours after a wonderful Hong Kong Dim Sum lunch. In their school I performed sections of many of my forms, but Sifu Lai did not recognise them as being the same as what they practiced. I did Er Lang Quan, Wu Song Breaks Chains, Flower Fist, Jin Gang Quan, Dai Pang Quan, Feng Mo Quan and Dai Fut Zhang handsets. I also did Ba Kua Dao, Seven Star Sword, Luk Hop Spear, Kwan Dao and some other stuff but it was not the same. They showed me some handsets two saber sets and a spear set which were excellent and practical. I noticed that all of their hand and saber moves were lightning fast. Their punches were like bullets.

I asked Sifu Lai if he could explain applications of certain movements that our systems shared. He went over each of my movements and taught me a great deal about the purpose of each movement. Their understanding of saber usage was wonderful. I wish I had spent more time with them, but they did not have so much time.

Sifu Lai told me that he watched Ma Kin Fung (school) demonstrate his Lohan style, but it was not the same as what they practiced in their Lohan Society. Perhaps Master Ma's Lohan was curriculum they never learned, or perhaps as you say NorthernShaolin, it may have been from Wong's curriculum.

r.(Shaolin), I would be very interested in knowing which forms were similar to yours from Master Ma's curriculum. Was it the saber sets, stick sets and or handsets.

Its great talking with you all again. I look forward to more. The best way to reach me off the forum is satoridesign@hotmail.com.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

buddhapalm
05-18-2005, 06:45 PM
Hi r.(shaolin) and Northern Shaolin,
Any further collaboration on the possible similarities/connections of Sun Yu Fungs/Ma Kin Fungs Lohan and r.(shaolin) lineage ?

I would love to hear more about it.

Also was there any demonstration in Canada in February.

r.(shaolin)
05-18-2005, 08:49 PM
Hi Buddhapalm

Good to hear from you!

Ray Wong and I along with a number of other TCM shifu have been working on this demo for sometime. As you can image, getting something like this together is, difficult. Ray and I feel that we need to first put together a federation then do a joint public demo. Its a process, but I believe it will become a reality. A joint demo will more likely happen sometime in Oct. or Nov. In the meantime Danny Ma (Ma Kin Fung's son) and Ray will be putting on a demo this June here in Calgary. Apparently Danny and his students will be in Edmonton for the Canadian National Wushu Team Selection and Open Wushu Competition (http://www.albertawushu.com/05/index.html) so later that week he and Ray Wong's school are planning a demo here in Calgary. When I get the dates I'll let you know. I plan to go. It will be the first time we get to see a better representation of what they do.

We have been asked of do a Dragon Dance for the opening of the Canadian National Wushu Team Selection Competition so I'll be up there as well. I believe some of Ray's students will be entering Traditional Chinese Style section, as will some of my students.

r.

buddhapalm
05-22-2005, 02:10 AM
Hi r.(shaolin), its great to be back on the forum and into my training and research again. So much to catch up on.

Please let me know if any demo is planned for Novemberish, I would try my best to finally get up to Canada.

Warmest Regards,

Buddhapalm

NorthernShaolin
05-22-2005, 11:41 PM
buddhapalm,

Good to see that your back. Well since we last talked, I met with Ray Wong and asked him a some tough questions concerning the differences in SYF's Lo han lineage; specifically the lineage in H.K. and Ma's lineage since Ma had practiced with the HK lineage in the past. Ray originally learned from the HK lineage first before learning Ma's Lo Han. Well he really could not give me a clear definitive answer as to why different sets are taught today. However, what he told me is something I also heard from my sisuk, that when SYF retired, Hwang Hsiao Hsia changed the curriculum. Ma had already left the school when the change was made. Thus there exist two different curriculums in SYF's Lo Han with Hwang's curriculum being the condensed version. (He took the original 18 Lo Han hand sets down to 10 hand sets). So does that mean we can assume that Ma's Lo Han curriculum is the same as SYF's? Ray states that Danny can get this answer by going thru his father's notes but he just hasn't found the time yet.

I then asked him how did Wong Duk Hing's Lo Han fit in here. Ray said that Wong's Lo Han was the same, if not, then very close to SYF's Lo Han. He stated that Wong was regarded as one generation eariler than SYF. Also according to my Sisuk, the curriculums of both Wong's and Ma's were similar and thus is similar to what Ray mention. Who did Wong learn from? Ray had no answer. I could not find any written document either.

Were you able to make contact with any relatives of Wong's? According to Ray, Wong had a son, named Wei Hon, who ended up in Thailand and a daughter, named Ching Wah, who stayed with Wong. These individuals were never heard from again since the start of Japanese invasion of China.

This is as far as I got.

r.

Wow, that sounds like a big task ahead and a lot of hard work.

I'm sure it will be well worth it and something to be proud of being on the ground floor of what will be a great martial arts organization. All the success in the future.