Need advice from cooler heads than mine

[Oso]

ok, so I went to the gym where I teach to work out.

when I get there I see a sign advertising a 'kenpo arnis' seminar. Then I realize it's going on right then.

to make a long story short a former student of mine asked the gym owner if the guy he's training with now could come in and do a seminar. the gym owner said yes. no one thought to ask me if it would be cool or not.

am I wrong in thinking this was a huge breach of etiquitte?

I was raging. But, I just walked into my training area and just stood there and watched the last 15 minutes of some pretty cra ppy arnis drilling. (and that's an honest & objectively opinion since I was sizing these guys up in case my temper got the best of me) They asked me if I wanted to join in and I declined politely. A guy who was just watching asked me if I had ever seen anything like it before.:rolleyes:

After they got done my former student walked up to me and I told him that I thought it was very disrespectful of him to have brought these guys in to my space. He said he didn't understand why. I told him that I should have bee asked out of respect since I had been running classes there for two years. Realizing I was ****ed he got all stony and told me to take it up with the gym owner, which I will. I told him that I didn't expect the gym owner to be aware that having another instructor teach in my space without at least checking with me. But, that I expected it of him and the other instructor.

I walked out of the room and wrote a note and left it for the gym owner asking him to call me so we could talk about it. I don't really expect the gym owner to understand, he's just trying to make a buck but I guess I see that we will have to come to an understanding about this issue.

I walked out to my car and the 'kenpo arnis' guy happened to have parked by my truck (which has my school logo on it) and he and his guys were remarking on my logo. So, I walked up and introduced myself and asked them if they realized that someone was running a school in that space. One guy did and another didn't. I asked them if they thought it was a breach of etiquitte not to have tried talking to me first. They said they didn't think it was a problem since the gym owner said it was ok. I told them that I was surprised that anyone claiming to be a martial art's teacher would think it ok.

Am I wrong here?

My former student has called claiming to have not thought it a bad idea and apologized. I told him that I was still way to pis ssed off to accept it at the moment.

oh, and btw, my former student quit after he got his first black eye during sparring. judging by what I saw today, he has found someone who isn't going to ask him to learn how to fight or work him very hard.

comments please

[prana]

I dont blame you... that is pretty rude.

But in this world where money rulz, not sure what you could do about it except make a decision later when your upset has subsided a little.

But for the situation, I thought you handled it quite well so far. Then again, that is My Opinion

[Oso]

prana, thanks.

I am holding any permanent decision till at least tomorrow. But, DA MN am I pis sed.

When my former student called to apologize I asked him if he thought I would have said 'no' to the idea of having someone come in to do a seminar. I have always told my students to be open about other styles and people. He said that he just didn't think about it. And, just so ya'll know, this guy is 45 years old, a professional in the psychology field and supposedly a black belt in Ed Parker's kenpo. so, he's not some kid who doesn't, or shouldn't, no better.

[diego]

i'm not a teacher but from what i read i'd peeved at your former student but not the arnis teachers as they said the gym owner thought it would be okay so in their eyes it was just open space...the ego on your former student tho i would need to have been there but i sense foolishness on his part due to what was conveyed about his charachter in your post:).

[Oso]

diego

I'm not ****ed at the other instructor too much. BUT--I do have a 2'x6' sign hanging out front and if I had walked in to a place and seen a sign I would have immediately questioned what the deal was. I was very civil to the other instructor. Although, I still maintain that it should have struck them as disrespectful and when I questioned them specifically about that they didn't think it was. doesn't say much for them as martial artist's imo.

as for my former student...I was more surprised than anything. He quit me because he realized I was going to require demonstration of knowledge through sparring. And that meant you might get a few bruises. :rolleyes: On top of that he was always late for class, I mean every single class...15-20 minutes. But, he was my 3rd student in the new place and when I got a kids program going, his daughter was my first student there. And his daughter is almost aways late for class as well, and that's not the fault of an 8 year old but the parent.

I was disappointed to see him go but I'm not going to cry over losing a student who doesn't want to spar because he might get bruises.

[Laughing Cow]

diego.

I understand your feelings. Not sure what the regulations over there are.

At the gyms where I used to work out, ANYBODY could rent the space and halls on an hourly/fixed basis, provided the slot was free.

So if the Gym-owner decided it is good for HIS business to have 2 different MA's taught there than that was it.

[shaolinboxer]

You should have supported the kid, then he might have felt good about recommending you to students interested in more advanced study.

[Oso]

LC

so, no respect from one instructor to another instructor's efforts?

I'm not talking about the gym owner's choice but the lack of etiquette and respect from a fomer student and someone claiming to be a teacher. As I said, if I had been approached I would have been like 'sure, let's get something going' but I wasn't.

[Oso]

shaolinboxer

what kid?

my former student? he's not a kid. see above if you missed my description of him.

the other instructor? I would have supported his efforts if he had asked.

[diego]

just playing investigative reporter:): Why did the student select your space!?.......from what i read, i deduce prolly since he pussed out cuz of a black eye, maybe by hooking his new teacher up with some space raises his level as one in the martial arts...i hooked my teacher up with a apple aint i special...now whatever frued would call this complex i dont know, but i see it as maybe by being such a good student hooking his teacher up with space...this action stroked the damaged frailty of his manhood which became downsized once he became scared of your school by the shock/thought of hard sparring:) (just trying to make you feel better;))

seriously maybe he wasnt thinking when he hooked his new teacher up with your space, but then i questioned why he chose your school, and all i came up with is: it was the only space in town he new of, or what i wrote above, he had to give his teacher an apple to raise his ego, and by doing this in your space he killed any loss of pride he felt when he realized he wasn't cut out for your class!?.
What do you think?.

[rogue]

am I wrong in thinking this was a huge breach of etiquitte? Yup. You may be nothing more to the gym owner than a tenent. Your school is only your school when you have it booked, so unless your class was bounced from your scheduled time for the seminar you don't have a reason to grumble. Your ex-student is either a weasel or just being helpful to his current instructor. If I was the student I would have checked with you first before suggesting the space to my instructor, but that's just me.

What should you do? Just let it go and move on.

[Oso]

diego,

you are probably pretty close, I don't want to seem like I'm badmouthing my former student. I just told you guys the facts of his quitting my class: He had been training with me a year and it came time to start sparring. His first comment after his and mine first time sparring was that he realized that what he had been doing for 12 years was basically light contact sport stuff. He and I talked after the black eye (which was our dozenth sparring session or so) and I told him he could wear whatever type of headgear he wanted to protect his face but that what he had seen sparring wise was nothing compared to down the road. btw, the black eye was just one of those little dot bruises. it was incidental knee contact he got after he took me to the ground. It barely discolored his eyelid. He had no bruising or swelling other than a small part of his eyelid. but, anyway, he decided it wasn't for him and that was fine. he kept his kid in my kids class and found this other kenpo guy who would play a game he was familiar with. I told him I thought it was a good idea for him to continue working with what he was comfortable with. I feel I went to extra effort to assuage this guy's ego because I liked him as a person.

I don't really think it was as involved as what you are proposing, diego, but there was definitely some ego loss involved from a guy who does reps on the benchpress with my max. But, it was a poor judgement call on his part. And, on the other instructor.


rogue,

Your school is only your school when you have it booked, so unless your class was bounced from your scheduled time for the seminar you don't have a reason to grumble.

again, I understand the gym owners perspective. This will have to be something he and I come to an agreement on. I feel like I should still have some say in whether another martial artist comes into the building. This is a saturated market. There are 27 separate listings for ma schools in a town of 75,000. I have not quite 10 students after 2 years of classes. It's been tough enough to develop a student base w/o someone else coming in to an even smaller market (the gym itself) and causing potential students to have to make a choice. And, before anyone jumps in with 'if you're better you'll get the students and not him', I've been nice in my commentary about what I saw this other guy teaching. I'm not worried about a comparison. But we all know who has greater student populations and it's not the 'good' instructors, it's the mcdojo's.


Your ex-student is either a weasel or just being helpful to his current instructor.

I don't think he was being a weasel. I'm questioning the propriety of the actions of him and the other instructor.


If I was the student I would have checked with you first before suggesting the space to my instructor, but that's just me.


well, that's what I think too. but neither he nor the other instructor thought it was an issue.


and to stress again, I was ****ed as hell but didn't raise my voice or even cuss more than I do in any conversation. I pointedly told the other instructor that I was not ****ed at him but that I still thought he was disrespectful.

[rogue]

I'd say if you can't get an exclusive at the gym then you'll just have to suck it up and let it go. I agree it was disrespectful, remember not everyone goes by the same rules of etiquette.

I may be in Bravard this summer visiting family, how far are you from there?

[Oso]

I'd say if you can't get an exclusive at the gym then you'll just have to suck it up and let it go.

granted. I will be having a discussion with the gym owner concerning that this week.


I agree it was disrespectful, remember not everyone goes by the same rules of etiquette.

true enough. but I didn't expect this from a former student I had a peaceful parting with.



I may be in Bravard this summer visiting family, how far are you from there?

It's just down I-26 from here. 30-45 minutes depending on which side of town you'll be on. I would welcome the visit. There's plenty of good food and spirits to be had.:)

[Guile]

Hey maybe you can get the new instructor's students interested in you?:D You can send him the weak ones and the ones who are looking for more come to you. Maybe a little hard to work out :p Just an idea

[Oso]

well, the guy would have to admit that his classes would be easier than mine. and I'm sure that would happen.

I wish I felt like bashing. I would describe how this guy was doing his kenpo/arnis/pencak combination. but I'll leave it to your imagination.

[Laughing Cow]

Oso.

As far as I am concerned there is NO reason why anyone should have consulted you.

From what I get you are renting a space, so the space was recommended by an ex-student, big deal.

What is your real beef?
Worried about loosing students?
Want to be only guy on the block?

Forget about respect it is business in that case.
Or do you think it would be different if it was another teacher/style with no ex-student.

Respect & Dignity is how you handle the situation from now on.

In most countries I have been to many schools need to share the same space and location due to limited availability.

Last place I trained sometimes it was used by Aikido guys and sometimes by us and sometimes as a Child minding area.

To be honest, I also don't think that the gym owner needs or should consult you over HIS property and what he does with it, unless it is so specified in your agreement.

Just keep doing your stuff and don't worry about the other guy.

Cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

Question,

Did your class get bumped? If yes, and there was no notifacation, you have a right to be po'ed.

If no, your useing community space, and that is just the name of the game. Get yourself a Phone book add that rings to a cell phone, promote the living daylights out of your club, and get a store front space. Then YOU are in charge and noone else.

[crumpet]

how does an area up for hire to the public become solely 'your' space just because you teach there at certain times? unless you have an alter paying respects to your lineage, then it's not disrespectul for others to teach there. and you wouldn't have that alter unless that was solely your kwoon... i've never heard of an etiquette where you would have to ask another instructor if you could teach in the same area (unless that instructor also owned it). the only problem i could see arising is if the 2 groups don't keep to themselves. there are plenty of places such as community halls which are there for that purpose, and it's really up to the discretion of the owner/manager. and wasn't it just an exhibition? once off shouldn't be a worry.

[PHILBERT]

Had something similar happen a couple weeks ago in my Wing Tsun class. We work out in a gym too, in the areobic room and have this contract with the place. It's like 8:50, nobody in the gym area and this guy walks into our room (which we had the doors closed) and begins doing a Karate kata (rather poorly too I might add, he was all unbalanced and messing up) in the middle of our Kung Fu class. Of course everyone in the room is holding back there laughter and one guy Im training with whispers "Look at me, I'm stupid!". My instructor was being all nice to him and all, the guy had no idea how rude it was that he just walked into our area and practiced Karate. There was plenty of space out in the weightroom for him to practice. Needless to say we still make fun of the guy.

[dezhen2001]

hmm... thats a tough one mate. as far as i can see it just seems like they hired the same general hall space in the community center/sports center as you right? if so then its just general space even if you have a weekly slot there.

for eg. my sifu has his class in a sports centre. recently another chen taijiquan club from a different lineage has started in the same building (different days). We only have some small notices up at the entrance to the sports centre yet they have put their posters specifically right beside ours etc. Even taken some down or put theirs over! But really - they are promoting thru the "lineage" approach whereas ours is just as good but we dont do that. So they get the people who want that whereas we get the people who wanna just train for health and do push hands more or whatever - so it all works out even tho is a bit tougher these days :p

So really i would say if it was just a one off thing then let it slide... but if its gonna be a regular thing then i think you should ask to be kept informed, as you may a) be planning seminars or extra classes also so need to know when the space is free or b) could even wanna send people for extra practise (if its a good teacher doing the seminar) or however many other possible reasons.

I reckon thats its always good to give a cursory "nod" to the other MA in the community - especially if its the same skill, but then again thats the difference between business and a community trying to help everyone.

im not a full time teacher or anything though so i dont really know how the situation will affect your living...

good luck anyway buddy :)
dawood

[Oso]

well, I've stated my case pretty clearly so far.

I do feel it's my space insofar as I have been working my ass off to associate that place and my name as a good place to train ma.

Yes, it is a semi-public place but as I said, I have a sign up at the road, right below the sign for the gym. Approved of course by the owner of the gym. My gear is stored in the space. To me this means some respect is due for my efforts to promote myself and teach good ma. I have brought in several people who have since signed contracts with the gym, which makes me less money as gym members can take the class for free. So, yes, from a business standpoint I don't want the extra competition (such as it was).

It's not like I'm griping about a ma school opening up accross the street or next door. This is in the space I'm trying to associate with AMA (me) and good ma. So, from that standpoint I also don't want someone with extremely poor movement doing something in the same place as I do my thing because I don't want someone new to the gym to see them and associate them with me:

"hey, I hear you got a guy teaching kung fu at your gym"

"yea, but I saw him the other day and he was doing something or another but he was tripping over his own feet. It didn't look very good"

"oh, well, I guess I'll look elsewhere"

but that's all just from the business side. which I will have to clear up with the gym owner or move elsewhere.


I would never occupy another teacher's space in any manner without talking with him or her. That is how I interpret what respect and honor between teacher's should be about. That's what I give and that's what I expect. And it should take precedence over the business aspect.


I reckon thats its always good to give a cursory "nod" to the other MA in the community - especially if its the same skill, but then again thats the difference between business and a community trying to help everyone.

this is all I'm asking for. As I told my former student, I would have certainly agreed to having this guy come in and do a seminar and would have promoted it to my students perhaps gaining the other instructor more people. But, only once as I was very unimpressed with his skills.

thanks for the input

[Royal Dragon]

Oso, the big question IS Did you and your students get bumped from your class becasue of it?

[Oso]

RD, no they didn't. But, I don't feel that's the big question.

Again, simply, it should have been a matter of professional courtesy to have at least let me know what was going on. But, a much more serious breach of respect by my former student for setting the whole thing up to begin with.

[Royal Dragon]

Sounds like you are in a commuinity center. You don't have a gripe. If you make a big deal out of it, your going to end up looking like and A$s hole to the gyms owner. It will start a political back lashs between you. If you don't have a store front or something already set up, I'd drop it. If you do, there is no sense persuing even a discussion about it because your leaving soon anyway.

Trust me, I have been running programs in Rec centers and park dist for years (sinc 94). You're better off just ignoring the whole thing. It's not YOUR room, it's the gym's. You just rent some space there for a few hours a week.

[Oso]

RD, I'm in a private Gym. Not a rec or community center.

And AGAIN, there are two separate issues.

1 - the one with my former student and the instructor he brought in.

2 - the one with the gym owner. The agreement we have is verbal and this has only come up before when I stopped offering a tai chi class due to lack of interest and he had the opportunity to bring someone else in to do that. (On a side note this tai chi guy teaches "Chi Kung Tai Chi" and says it with a straight face) I wished the gym owner and the new guy well and hoped he could attract some people to his class. I will be discussing this issue with the gym owner this week.

[Vapour]

If you and this student were friends or been in close dicipline-master relationship, yes, what he did was not nice and I would go as far as say that it is completely wrong akin to screwing your friend girlfriend. But were you that close to that student or for that matter the owner of gym to "insist" that they ought to be nice to you or did you just assume that they owe you something just because you are his master (which is such an abused term).

Respect you get as instructor is not right and you don't own student nor you can tell them what they can do outside class. This student and the owner as well as kempo instructors had every right to do what they did and if they ask you, they weren't asking permission, they are just being nice to you and you should be graceful that they cared. If they didn't, tough.

[Oso]

If you and this student were friends or been in close dicipline-master relationship, yes, what he did was not nice and I would go as far as say that it is completely wrong akin to screwing your friend girlfriend. But were you that close to that student or for that matter the owner of gym to "insist" that they ought to be nice to you or did you just assume that they owe you something just because you are his master (which is such an abused term).

I have certainly not claimed 'mastership' of anyone or anything. I gave this guy a fair amount of free private instruction because he was so interested in the beginning. I put up with him being constantly late to class and eventually a total lackluster performance in what I had taught him but a continuing attitude that I should teach him more stuff even though he had not come close to attaining any real skill in what he had learned. Not to mention a constant line of 'we do it this way in kenpo' remarks.

But, yes, I feel that I should be consulted in the addition of any martial arts program to the very small venue of the gym because I have been there for two years and added to my program and in a small way to the overall benefit of the gym. I'm not saying that I should have the final say, it is someone else's building. But, I should be given the opportunity to agree or disagree with the proposed action and if I disagree enough, protest.



Respect you get as instructor is not right and you don't own student nor you can tell them what they can do outside class.

I never said it was a right. It has to be earned. I feel I have earned it, at least within those 4 walls. The student in question quit my class. I helped him protect his ego in that process because I like him as a person. Prior to him quitting I offered, and gave, free private training to help him out.


This student and the owner as well as kempo instructors had every right to do what they did and if they ask you, they weren't asking permission, they are just being nice to you and you should be graceful that they cared. If they didn't, tough.

I also never said I should be asked 'permission' but as a professional courtesy. That professional courtesy was not extended and I have a right to be peeved about that.

Some of you guys are not reading what I'm saying. My gripe is with the lack of professional courtesy that I feel should be extended from one ma teacher to another and respect due a former teacher. It's about communication. Something that is in a very poor state of affairs within the ma community. I did not blow up or start kicking a ss but expressed my displeasure to all parties involved in a basically civil manner. I wanted to see if anyone else agreed that there was some impropriety involved in the situation.

[guohuen]

I think it's proper bussiness etiquite to ask. Most bussiness' have a no competition clause in your lease. You would'nt want a owner to let someone open a sandwich shop next to yours. You expect your landlord to respect your bussiness and not do anything to hurt it. (I think you'd have to be a self defeating idiot to do something like that.)
The former student is an immature twit that needs to be ostracized.

[Oso]

LOL, thanks.

I don't intend to ostracize him at all. I'm just ****ed. He did call to apologize but I had to tell him I was too ****ed to talk with him about it at that point in time and we would talk later. A stroke of maturity I didn't know I had in me.:)

[Chinwoo-er]

ok, I havnt read all the replies to this thread so someone may have said this already. There is one thing that struck me. What is the system of the gym ? I have been teaching here and there for quite some time now. In every case, be it renting the place of usage for free, there should be a kind of contract that is signed by myself and the owner of the venue. This contact should dictate that I have piority over that venue for that period of time. Also, it should be enforced by law. Sure there are rules like not breaking anything or conducting illegal activities etc, but basically, I have the right the kick anyone out during that time. Unless I violate those rules that are previously set, even the owner can't take away my privilage over that venue. The only thing he can do is to not lend it to me next time.

Even if you were hired by the gym owner, a similar contract should be signed before the use exactly because something like this could happen. Did you sign a contract ? If not, maybe you can propose it to the gym owner.

Can you explain how the system is at your place ?

[Vapour]

My advice is not to mix your personal feeling with business. If you think you have contributed to the gym's business, you should ask him to reduce the rent instead of expect the owner to be your buddy. It is far more easy that way. It is absolutely no business of yours to even consider that he should have consulted you in matter of what he should do with his gym space which you haven't paid for.

To be honest, if I'm the gym owner, my response would be "Who the **** he think he is." Leaving a note was a bad move

As of you giving personal lesson to this student, I'm sorry to hear that it was such a wasted effort but this kind of thing happen and you should be adult enought to take it. You must be way older than him.

[Oso]

We don't have a written contract. That may have to change now.

The ownership changed about a year after I started teaching and they have been in a constant state of upgrading and since the new owner didn't change anything and even enforced the posted classtimes when the aerobics guy kept running 15-20 minutes over. So, I didn't feel prompted to put anything in writing. Naive on my part maybe.

We have a verbal agreemant based on the number of students in class and the understanding that gym members must be part of the class indicating that I am serving his population as well as anyone else that I bring in. My class is only 8-10 people with 4-6 of them members.

[Oso]

My advice is not to mix your personal feeling with business. If you think you have contributed to the gym's business, you should ask him to reduce the rent instead of expect the owner to be your buddy. It is far more easy that way. It is absolutely no business of yours to even consider that he should have consulted you in matter of what he should do with his gym space which you haven't paid for.

We have renegotiated our terms to my benefit once and they are contingent on the number of non-gym members I bring in through my own advertising.


To be honest, if I'm the gym owner, my response would be "Who the **** he think he is." Leaving a note was a bad move

I don't think so. It was courteously worded requesting some time to discuss the issue. I left it in his personal box. He is not always around. I may not see him for a week or more sometimes. The only contact phone number is the gym itself so I would have had to leave a message with the front desk person otherwise.


As of you giving personal lesson to this student, I'm sorry to hear that it was such a wasted effort but this kind of thing happen and you should be adult enought to take it. You must be way older than him.

no, he is 10 years older than me and has worked through to black belt level in another system. And a professional psychologist. Him quitting was not an issue. We had a long discussion over lunch about it.

Where do you think I have NOT been adult about this?? Yes, I'm ****ed and ranting about it here but that's not really a reflection of how I handled it yesterday...as I have elaborated.

[Watchman]

Oso, I understand where you're coming from. I think you're right in pursuing an agreement for exclusivity - it's good business.


It is absolutely no business of yours to even consider that he should have consulted you in matter of what he should do with his gym space which you haven't paid for.

It actually is Oso's business, because it cuts into his bottom line. He has a business arrangement with the gym owner that is undercut if he has direct competitors utilizing the same space. Oso's only oversight is not openly discussing exclusivity with the owner - but it looks like that will be corrected.

I don't even teach through the gym I work at, and the management deferrs to me before approving any martial-arts related programs. The university I teach at has the same policy.

[dbulmer]

Oso,
Having read this thread I think you have every right to feel aggrieved. It struck me that your former student simply didn't have the basic manners/civility to ask you as a bloke - never mind the student/teacher thing. That said, when he apologised it's best to put it behind you and move on from there. Whatever happens, the trust you both had with one another once, will have been damaged but there's little to be gained from grudges on either side. He's moved on, so should you.

If the going gets tough and your student takes the easy way he's fooling himself ultimately. From what you said earlier, the guy is a collector of techniques who will come unstuck one day when he meets someone with a different gameplan. If your former student wants to wallow in ego that's his choice ultimately and not yours.

Let your annoyance go, life's too short sir.

[David Jamieson]

oso-

I wouldn't get too peed about it for a few reasons.
I also agree that if your concern is exclusive use of the space then you need to work that out with the gym owner.

If it's the only gym around, then why shouldn't others be allowed to rent the space?

If there are other gyms around that offer floor space, then your former student is being a little ant about this and taking a deliberate shot at you for some reason. (maybe he couldn't get over the black eye incident :D )

If there aren't any other gyms around, then, well, you have to live with it. It's either that, or get a place where it is your own space and you don't need to worry about third parties.

cheers

[Royal Dragon]

Question, is this guy going to be conducting on going seminars? Or was it just that one time deal?

[Watchman]

If it's the only gym around, then why shouldn't others be allowed to rent the space?

The thing is, it's not just others using the space - it's a guy doing the EXACT same thing Oso is.

I'm sure Oso would agree that if the guy was teaching TKD or kickboxing that it wouldn't be a big deal, as that would clearly be a different product from what he offers. However, when you have two people that are direct competitors using the same space and teaching similar material, then it creates confusion in the minds of consumers. It also allows the new party to skim off of the marketing and name recognition efforts of the already established party (Oso in this case).

It gets sticky when the other guy is able to benefit from Oso's already established recognition and marketing efforts. That's the part that is upsetting and should be pointed out to the gym owner.

To give you some perspective, when I approached the local university here about teaching a kung fu course through the phys ed department they pointed out that they already had an established "martial arts class", and that I would have to prove to them that anything I was going to offer would have to be "substantially different" from the established course.

Since the "martial arts class" was based on Shotokan Karate it was pretty easy to prove to them that what I offered was quite different and was able to get it approved. However, I still had to jump through the hoops just because I was stepping into someone else's territory.

[Royal Dragon]

Then what he needs to do is negotiate a contract giving him eclusive rights to the space for that type of program. It should be something to the effect of ALL martial arts related programs must go through him.

[Watchman]

RD,

It wouldn't really have to be exclusivity on ALL marital arts programs. Oso should just sit down with the gym owner and explain the core traits of his program and ask for approval rights on anything that comes down the pipe that may happen to share those traits.

[Royal Dragon]

That could work. The park dist I teach Taiji at is like that. "I" am thier Taiji teacher, period. But when I wanted to teach Kung Fu there, it was nixed because it would compete with thier Karate program. The Karate guy is THE selfdefence teacher, period. I can get away with teaching a bit of Kung Fu to my Taiji students, but I can't run an official program. I'm allowed to do internal (He he he he) marketing only. Generally the Kung Fu is really a student retention tool, as I seem to get a number of Boyfreind/Girlfeind and Husban/Wives teams where the male is totlaly NOT interested in what he precives to be "Girly Thai Chee" He's only there because his woman dragged him into it. BUT, if he can learn some "Kuuuunnnng Fuuuu!!" After the Taiji class, he sufferes through it to get to what he percives to be the Manly cool stuff.

I can't wait till "Black Sash" airs tonight, that is DEFENETLY going to boost my student numbers.

I' need to brush up on my circle walking me thinks :D

I gotta tell you, those of us who run schools have to develop an entire new psycological art of marketing and retaining students. It's at least as comprehensive as the fighting itself.

[Watchman]

I gotta tell you, those of us who run schools have to develop an entire new psycological art of marketing and retaining students. It's at least as comprehensive as the fighting itself.

You are correct.

P.S. What is "Black Sash"?

[LEGEND]

OSO...how much do u pay in terms of rent??? Is this base on how many students u have???

[rogue]

I gotta tell you, those of us who run schools have to develop an entire new psycological art of marketing and retaining students. It's at least as comprehensive as the fighting itself. And it's a razors edge between balancing a school that's true to being a martial art and that's solvent. One branch of my school is branching away from the community center and back out into a stand alone dojo. Suddenly the words "fitness", "fun" and "self defense" are starting to be used to sell the school. While there's nothing wrong with that I wonder if the training will change based upon which market shows up at the door the most.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Watchman



P.S. What is "Black Sash"?

New show on the WB - russell wong is a kung fu teacher - teaches bagua. He also an ex cop. There are several threads on it here - do a search on it.

[Oso]

Watchman, you bring up some very good points on the business angle that I haven't even thought about. I was just blown away by the other part of the issue. Thanks, I definitely have clearer thoughts on the discussion I will have with the gym owner.

dbulmer, good advice. That's why, after the initial discussion, I put off any more talk until I was cooled down.

KL, there are at least 4 other large, full service gyms within city limits and possibly more in the sub-urban area of the county. Additionally, there are at least a dozen community rec centers.

The thing is, my former student is a member at the gym, has been since before I started teaching there. He was the 3rd person to start classes with me and trained with me for 12 months. During this time training was all basics, forms and 2 man drills. At approx 12 months we start sparring lightly and build up to heavier. Well, this guy is a kenpo black belt and a bodybuilder, so when we start sparring he keeps letting go with hard hits. That's fine. I told him we weren't really working at those contact levels yet and if he kept on he would recieve some back. I know he was ****ed about the black eye but more humbled by the throws. At that time I also had some more advanced students of my sifu's come down to visit and he got a look at what we do around the 3 year point. After that he started missing every other class, then only making every third.... I would also like to add that as a member of the gym, this person never paid any extra for his training, not to mention the 4 or 5 times we got together privately.

RD, I don't know yet. My former student said that they were discussing using one of the smaller rooms at the same time as my class. But, when I talked to the instructor he said it was a one time thing. That's another point that I will be discussing with the owner.

Watchman, I think I would be ok with a kickboxing class but not any other art. One of the reasons I don't have too many students is that I expect them to train and practice hard. Someone who had a similar external appearance but was basically teaching patty-cake would certainly affect my class as he would probably get more students because it was easier. I never got anyone for tai chi class to stick because I talked about tai chi as a martial art:eek:



Watchman

RD,
It wouldn't really have to be exclusivity on ALL marital arts programs. Oso should just sit down with the gym owner and explain the core traits of his program and ask for approval rights on anything that comes down the pipe that may happen to share those traits.

Royal Dragon
Then what he needs to do is negotiate a contract giving him eclusive rights to the space for that type of program. It should be something to the effect of ALL martial arts related programs must go through him.


That will be the main goal of my discussion with the gym owner.
I don't think he would agree to a written contract and so far things have been good with a handshake. I'll have to see. I didn't come off as trying to tell him he couldn't or shouldn't have allowed it to happen but that I wished he had let me know and that I needed to talk with him about it.

LEGEND
I don't pay rent. The gym owner pays me a flat rate per hour. I have 4 or 5 gym members that participate and 4-5 walk-ins that pay by the class. I don't make any more money till the 5th walk in. I get 100% of all walk in money above the 4th. This was recently renegotiated after I started getting quite a bit more interest. I went a full year with just 2-4 students.:(

I'm not worried about making tons of money. I may never do this full time. I would like to eventually have a base of about 20 students just to help create a good class dynamic and pay for good training equipment.


THANKS ALL, for the commentary. It's helped quite a bit.

[Royal Dragon]

And it's a razors edge between balancing a school that's true to being a martial art and that's solvent. One branch of my school is branching away from the community center and back out into a stand alone dojo. Suddenly the words "fitness", "fun" and "self defense" are starting to be used to sell the school. While there's nothing wrong with that I wonder if the training will change based upon which market shows up at the door the most.

Reply]
I'm sure they will. You have to pay the rent. Generally the "Recreational" Kung Fu programs are used to support behind the scenes Traditional programs anyway. That is why I get pi$sed when people rag on Kung Fu McKwoons, because they support as much or more Traditional Kung Fu as anyone. It's just done in the back room, or After the classes that pay the bills.

[Royal Dragon]

RD, I don't know yet. My former student said that they were discussing using one of the smaller rooms at the same time as my class. But, when I talked to the instructor he said it was a one time thing. That's another point that I will be discussing with the owner.

Reply]
Im my situation, I get a commision of $4 perstudent, the Park Dist gets the balance. It's nice during the fall wehn I get 18 students in at a time as I make like $72 for just standing there moving slow for an hour, but come summer when I have like 4 students, I'm really more liike just earning my own practice space. I don't charge for the Kung Fu, but I require the few that I do teach on occasion to be paying Taiji Quan students.

Agian, my contract (Yes, I have a writen contract) has a non compete clause in it, so they can't bring in another Taiji teacher to compete with me (unles they fire me), just like I can't openly teach Kung Fu (they let me teach it to my Taiji Students, but won't market it as a public program) becaue the Karate guy has the same non compete clause in his contract (Sux too, I accidently got one of his pay checks once, and this guy is raking it in!!!!)

[Vapour]

Hmmm, just put thing into perspective, I train judo in a community sports centre. The room we train is used by tkd, aikido, jujitu and karate club as well. And that is very common in other community sports centre.

One of the university sports centre has, 3 aikido style (tomiki, aikikai and ki) and one jujitu all sharing the same building on different date. I think there is two karate style and tkd as well. The idea that one can be upset about someone else opening other martial arts club would be considered as a bit absurd. Having said it, I think large number of these instructor has other job. I think in u.k. many martial arts instructor has main job somewhere else and they teach MA because they love it. So bussiness are often secondly issue.

[Oso]

See, another thing is, the Director at the rec center where I teach kids wants me to expand the kids to 2 nights and bring my adults over. I charge $25/month for kids and get 70% of that. If I expand kids and bring my adults over I could stand to triple or quadruple my income immediately. BUT, the members that are training with me are pretty serious about it and I would feel guilty about making them decide to start paying for the class. I would lose a couple of them just due to economics. I work for peanuts at the gym. I get paid for an hour and run a 90-120 minute class just cuz I want to teach, but that's my choice and I don't begrudge it at all. My day job is such that I don't need the extra income and use it to either play or buy gear.

[Oso]

Vapour

I feel the difference is that I'm not teaching adults at a community center but at a private gym. It would be somewhat different if I was. But, as it stands now, I think if I wanted to I could wrap up the whole city program and teach at several different centers. The director really likes my approach with kids and she has seen several ma teachers go through the city system. The last one was asked to leave.



Maybe this is a nudge towards me moving completely to the rec center and out of the gym. I would lose a couple of students at the start but having both kids and adults at the same location could only build enrollement in both.

[dezhen2001]

it seems your thoughts have changed for the better buddy - im sure there is some good that can come out of all of this - even if its the kids classes like you said :)

dawood

[Oso]

thanks, dez.

[Laughing Cow]

Oso.

The rec-center might not be that bad a deal.

From a students point of view I will give you my experience.
The last syle I studied had multiple locations and I got too choose between a class in a sports-gym(franchise) or a class held in a rented school.

I went for the latter as the former asked me to pay Gym-fees & Class-fees, ended up paying about 1/4 of the fee.
:D

I think your student number will increase quiet a bit at the rec-center and your serious students will still be around.

Cheers.

[Oso]

LC,
I would basically say that was sound advice but here's the details to my class at the gym.

If you join the gym for $35/month you pay no class fees.

If you don't join the gym the class is $5/class.

I have already established my kids class at $25/month for 1 class a week.

So, now I would have to figure out what to charge for adult class 2 times a week. Based on kids class that would be $50/month.

The next cheapest school in town is $60/month and they go up from there. I'm paying $75/month for jujutsu classes and they are normally $85/month but the shihan is giving me a 'professional discount' as he put it.

So, at $50/month I would be well below the market average but above what my students are currently paying...another nut to crack.

but, the more I think about it the more I think moving to the rec center is the answer.

[Laughing Cow]

Oso.

I wouldn't double the fee for twice a week, unless your overheads are doubled.

$40 for twice a week looks good to me personally, you can give discounts to your current students too.

Just some thoughts.

[Oso]

good point and I'd already thought of that. No, the overhead isn't doubled but from a strictly business standpoint: my product is better than 75% of the other schools in town (arrogant maybe but I do give credit to the other teachers I have met and deem a step or two up the ladder...and I tell this to my students too!) and there is an argument for selling too cheaply. I don't know that I should be the least expensive place to learn good ma.

but, I will probably charge 40/month for the kids and either 45 or 50 for the adults. Kids class is 45-60 minutes and adult class is 90-120. Besides, the money is mostly turned back in to buy equipment and if I move to the rec center I will have to buy mats asap as the floor is composite tile on concrete.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Oso
Besides, the money is mostly turned back in to buy equipment and if I move to the rec center I will have to buy mats asap as the floor is composite tile on concrete.

Ouch, that is a nast floor.

At the moment we either train in a School-Gym or a Kendo-hall at the local rec-center.

Both got nice sprung wooden floors, which make quiet a bit of noise during the stomps that we do in the form.
;)

No luxury of mats for us, you get taken down it is into the wooden floor or the dirt if outside.

Seeya.

[David Jamieson]

If their is a need for exclusivity in a genre of martial arts, then definitely that would be something to work out with the gym owner. It will probably include taking time to educate the gym owner as to the specifics of what you teach.

I still see plenty of examples of semi public and public gyms offering several different martials arts classes though.

cheers

[Oso]

KL,

true, but would you still not agree that if the gym owner wanted to expand his offerings that any instructors already teaching should be at least notified?

thanks,

Matt

[crumpet]

this reminds me of the movies where the big ass muscle clad bad dude walks into a gym and sees his machine taken by a weasel, then kicks him off it cause that's 'his' machine.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Oso
KL,

true, but would you still not agree that if the gym owner wanted to expand his offerings that any instructors already teaching should be at least notified?

thanks,

Matt

It's a courtesy, but really it is his gym and he can rent it out to anyone he wants.

I once started teaching in a school hall where a karate teacher was already established. We never met each other as our classes were on different days and we never spoke to each other. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with it. If you are the better teacher, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

And besides, a bit of competition can be good ;)

[Oso]

crumpet: thanks:rolleyes:


joedoe,
there is plenty of competition throughout the town. And, courtesy and respect is my main question here.





If you are the better teacher, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.


and I knew I'd hear that at some point. Neither my ability or his ability are even part of the point. It wouldn't matter if he was the second coming of wong long or not. I would expect better manners from a more proficient teacher anyway.

this is starting to get very circular.

[joedoe]

Forget I said anything then.

[Oso]

dude! seriously, I knew someone would toss that in.

It's just that my question was simply if some level of respect and professional courtesy had been breached.

some people have wanted to toss in irrelevant points such as who the better teacher is. Why does that matter? I don't see where it does.

[joedoe]

OK I will be very upfront and candid.

Your original post looked very much like you seem daunted by competition. It looked like you had issues with this other guy teaching a seminar at the gym because you consider it your turf and you feel it has been violated. Sounded very much to me that you wanted exclusivity.

You obviously do not think that is the way you wrote that so I am obviously wrong on that point.

In my mind, there is nothing to get upset about. The gym owner decided to rent out the space to the guy and that is his decision to make. Unless you are his "Martial arts director" or something, then he really does not have any obligation to tell you anything. It would be courteous for him to do so.

Same for the other instructor. It would have been courteous for him to talk to you about it, but there isn't really any requirement for him to do so.

[Oso]

OK I will be very upfront and candid.

Your original post looked very much like you seem daunted by competition. It looked like you had issues with this other guy teaching a seminar at the gym because you consider it your turf and you feel it has been violated. Sounded very much to me that you wanted exclusivity.

You obviously do not think that is the way you wrote that so I am obviously wrong on that point.


There is a ton of competition in town, as I have already stated: 27 separate listings for ma schools in a town of 75,000. So, I deal with competition every day. As part of my spiel to a prospective student I make sure they are aware of who else is out there. I tell them to go visit other schools, specifically recommending 5 other teachers I think are high quality: 2 Karate, 2 Kung Fu and 1 Tai Chi. I'm pretty sure I lose more prospective students than I gain from being honest in my sales approach cuz at least 2 of those guys have great looking schools in addition to good ma. I even train at one of them twice a week.

So, I'm not scared of competing. I'm finally getting interested people who come see me due to hearing about me from someone else. But, I do feel I should have a certain amount of exclusivity in the gym. That's a business issue that I had not thought about and will take it up with the gym owner, as I have said. It is certainly his right to tell me yes or no and then I have to decide whether I stay or not.


In my mind, there is nothing to get upset about. The gym owner decided to rent out the space to the guy and that is his decision to make. Unless you are his "Martial arts director" or something, then he really does not have any obligation to tell you anything. It would be courteous for him to do so.

That was my initial question. I was not upset with the gym owner but my own failure to cover this subject with him.



Same for the other instructor. It would have been courteous for him to talk to you about it, but there isn't really any requirement for him to do so.

again, my initial question was about etiquitte, respect and professional courtesy. And then there is the detail that a former student was responsible for bringing in the other instructor.

and, again, I didn't blow up and make a scene with anyone.

[Internal Boxer]

Personally I think you are being very much over sensitive, if I was in your shoes I would not give a crap, but then we are all individuals. I do not want to appear patronising but what the heck....Its a good idea to use your MA training to help get rid of negative emotions. Not a very original statement but if you sincerely did follow this type of training, you would not get mad at things that are not even remotely important.

[Oso]

I used KFO (and you guys) to get rid of negative emotions.:D

[Internal Boxer]

LOL :D

[apoweyn]

Oso,


Again, simply, it should have been a matter of professional courtesy to have at least let me know what was going on. But, a much more serious breach of respect by my former student for setting the whole thing up to begin with.

My personal feeling is that no, it's not a matter of professional courtesy. It's a matter of martial courtesy. If it were a matter of professional courtesy, I think you'd be upset with the gym manager. More to the point, the gym manager would presumably know enough about professional courtesy to have informed you himself.

This is something slightly more specific to martial arts, I think. Would you have been this upset if it had been a seminar in ballet? Or yoga?

I do see your point mind you. You've established yourself as the martial arts image in that gym. So anything related to martial arts in that place may well be reflected on you. I think you're right about that. And in that sense, it would have been nice if they'd informed you. But I don't think it requires a dishonourable person to have overlooked that notion. It's a different teacher teaching a different art.

Some teachers don't have schools. I don't have a school. So my sense of these things is different from yours. I mean, no, I obviously wouldn't teach a seminar in someone's school without asking them. But yours is a public space. That space exists for more than your classes. And that's the bottom line, to my mind.

I guess my feeling is that it was unfortunate that nobody thought to ask you about it. But that no real edict was violated. They didn't use your name. They didn't use your gear. They used a public room at a time when you weren't slated to use it. The conventions of some (though not all) martial arts say that it would have been good of them to tell you. But that's as far as it goes.

That said, your ex-student still sounds like a tool.


Stuart B.

[Watchman]

apoweyn is correct.

You shouldn't ever expect professional courtesy from competitors...oftentimes they are looking for any in to undercut your efforts anyway. Professional courtesy should flow both ways between you and the folks you have a business relationship with (in this case, the gym owner).

[Gold Horse Dragon]

On the whole I agree with you Oso...the way I look at it is this:

a. the owner of the gym has the right to rent out to others, but not at the same time as you have the gym booked for...and if he was smart he would have left an hour in between so you guys did not run into each other.

b. the former student should have sought other premises if there were some.

c. at least the former student had the courtesy and integrity to call you up as his former Sifu to personally apologize to you when he realized his actions breached martial art ettiquet and courtesy and the student/teacher relationship. I think you should have accepted his apology. Some students will not take the steps to bother to apologize and continue to insist they are right in their actions. This type of student probably does this in his other interpersonal relationships as well.

GHD

[apoweyn]

I wasn't under the impression that it was a time specifically slated for Oso's class. If it was, then that was very wrong. That changes everything.

The other thing is that I don't perceive this as a violation of any overall martial etiquette. I can tell that it's a violation of many people's martial etiquette. And perhaps those people share a common background (fairly traditional classroom background?) But I know plenty of instructors that wouldn't have given this a second thought.

That's not a criticism, Oso. I think the way you perceive your school is very admirable. And I can't even say that I, personally, would have felt any different in your shoes. But I don't think you can hang your hat on the notion that any martial artist would have found this unacceptable. Nor should you have to. The background that you've sought to create doesn't support this sort of behavior. So you're upset. But this isn't a universal wrongdoing, to my mind. So however you end up resolving it, you might want to bear that in mind.

IMHO


Stuart B.

[Robinf]

Sorry, I fell asleep. Posted wrong thing.

[Oso]

apoweyn,

thanks. My original intent was to find out if others thought their was some sort of breach of 'martial respect'. I didn't expect the gym owner to think of it at all. Things got sidetracked a bit along the way.

I realize that there was no binding agreement violated. I stayed calm when I talked to everyone while still expressing my displeasure and plan to approach the gym owner from a very neutral position and hopefully come to an agreement with him.

I think the best example will be this: I know the owner of the building that the gym owner leases also owns the building right next door and the one behind. I can ask him how he would feel about the building owner leasing to someone to open a gym right next door.

Watchman,

I guess I'm a little idealistic. A sifu friend of mine that I have known and trained with for over 10 years moved to Asheville about 6 months prior to me. As soon as I found out he had moved to Asheville I made a specific trip down from my old town to visit with him and let him know I was also moving to town and I offered to not open a school on his side of town. He initially said it wasn't an issue but I thought that it would be best for the friendship if we didn't compete for the same side of town. He still protested the need but eventually admitted it was probably a good idea. I just started training jujitsu at another school in town and the first thing I did after deciding I wanted to join was give the shihan a call and ask for an appointment to meet with him. I knew he knew my sifu but felt like I should approach him outside of the classroom first.


GHD,

When my former student called I was still too ****ed to discuss things and told him exactly that. I told him I would give him a call early this week. I intend to accept the apology.


I realize that I took it as a personal insult from my former student. He probably didn't intend it to be so but after quite a bit of encouragement and time on my part he still quit...and then facilitates this seminar. I did assume that anyone who has done ma for a while would understand some sort of communication was in order. And, when I questioned him about it, he admitted that he knew I probably would have said "Yea, let's do some training" if he had approached me about it first. I think things will work out ok.

thanks again, everyone.

Matt

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

you are a very patient man oso.

[apoweyn]

No worries, Oso. Like I said, I can see where you're coming from.

The former student sounds like a bit of a wanker for showing up with his new 'crew.' I just wanted to establish that this is 1) a personal feeling and 2) a traditional martial objection. Both are perfectly valid. Just not absolute.

That said, your analogy about renting out space for another gym next door is spot on. The manager of your gym would very likely be displeased. And I think he'll get your point.


Stuart B.

[Watchman]

Oso,

There is absolutely nothing wrong with idealism. I actually share your same outlook on protocol. However, I have learned to combine my idealism with a healthy dose of cynicism where business is concerned - especially when you're dealing with martial artists.

I make it a point to ALWAYS extend professional and personal courtesy to others, whether they are partners or competitors. But, as far as competitors are concerned, I never expect it in return.

If you continue along this way I have found that by virtue of your efforts you will rise to the top. I live in a place that has around the same population density as you mentioned. In places like ours, it doesn't take long for people to see who the straight-shooters are and will gravitate towards you.

[Oso]

you are a very patient man oso.

lol, only through a lot of self control.

It's kinda funny, I immediately thought about posting this situation here. I knew that I could rant and rave about it here and it's quite probable that helped me remain calm while I was talking about it with them yesterday.

So, score another one for KFO being someplace where martial artist's can share their situations and get some help.

Matt

[BaldMonk]

Oso,

Sounds like you've been living by different rules than the other people you're dealing with. Often when this is the case, conflict results. I think you had every right to be ****ed at the situation and if I were in your shoes I would be upset as well. However, with that being said I believe the reasons for this occuring is due to a lack of education on the part of your former student, the gym owner and the other instructor. The gym owner is a 'civilian' and doesn't know any better. He's the least culpable and it will be necessary for you to let him know where you're comming from. The other instructor is suffering from a lack of training in respect and courtesy as it pertain to the traditional martial arts we practice. In this country this type of training often gets neglected in favor of more physical techniques. Talking to him will be an oppourtunity to maybe open his eyes to this aspect of martial virtue. It's obvious that this is something that has been part of your training but not his. This is possible to do now where it wouldn't have been before because you aren't angry. Now lets talk about your student. He trained for a year under your tutelage. That's not really a long time but you did have a chance to impart basic rules of virtue and respect. I don't know why that didn't happen but you might want to address that with your remaining students so problems like this won't occur in the future. You were right not to act in anger. Seems like you may have a chance to take advantage of a teaching oppurtunity. All four of you might be able to gain something from this situation.

Good Luck
Baldy

[apoweyn]

baldmonk,


The other instructor is suffering from a lack of training in respect and courtesy as it pertain to the traditional martial arts we practice. In this country this type of training often gets neglected in favor of more physical techniques. Talking to him will be an oppourtunity to maybe open his eyes to this aspect of martial virtue.

Not every martial artist has the same sense of 'martial virtue.' It's not a moral absolute. And it doesn't necessarily mark a shortcoming in his training. I agree that it would have been nice for them to mention it to Oso. But I think it's important that this not be viewed as 'white man's burden' to enlighten the savages on martial virtue. Oso's space, when his class is not operating, is a public area (as far as I can tell). It is open for use by other classes. So while I totally understand Oso's being upset (especially given that these guys were lackluster, and he doesn't want them being associated with what he's trying to accomplish), I don't see that the instructor did anything qualitatively wrong.


Stuart B.

[Oso]

Had my meeting with the gym owner last night. All in all a good discussion.

As far as the incident with the 'seminar' goes he was unaware that it was anything more than my former student, a member of his gym, asking if he could bring 'guests' into the gym. As he put it, any member can bring any number of guests into the gym as long as they pay the guest fee. He wasn't asked about putting up a sign to promote the seminar or even asked if they could put on a seminar.

However, as I suspected, he didn't really have an opinion on the seminar or the posting of the sign (which was gone at this point) except some concern about potential injuries. He also wouldn't concede to any sort of exclusivity for me. His stance was that if he could offer something else on a different schedule from mine and his members wanted it, he would do it. He did say he would let me know prior to anything like that happening but considered it his perogitive. He didn't feel it would do anything but promote his gym if he had another succesful program.

But, he also said he had no interest in starting another ma class unless an instructor walked in with 15 or more people ready to sign memberships. He wasn't interested in starting from scratch with another ma class and commented that if I were to ever leave he would not ever consider another ma class as he feels he has learned that they aren't really a draw.

So, I'm not in any real danger of having another ma teacher operating in the same building as it would be most unlikely for anyone to walk in with 15 or more students.

Of course, I wished the owner's opinion was closer than mine but find no fault in his business sense and things are cool between he and I.

But, now I'm thinking that the gym is not the best place to promote a semi-traditional ma program.

I'm emailing my former student to set up a lunch to talk about the other side of this whole silly thing.

BaldMonk, I usually don't get that serious about discussing loyalty for several years. I've only been open 2 years and only have 1 student left from the first 6 months of operation and he's getting ready to leave for the navy. And with my own experiences in that area, I am very leary of coming off too serious about things like school loyalt. Thank you for your comments.

[apoweyn]

Oso,

I hope you don't take my comments in this thread as anything other than a (hopefully) objective opinion. You sound like a really good teacher, and I wish you all the luck in the world.


Stuart B.

[Oso]

absolutely, man. Thanks.

I posted this here to get opinions and everyone's, even those I didn't agree with, have helped me think the situation through.

Still have a bit more thinking to do....