12 Ideas for Body Movement

[seung ga faat]

When was still at my Sifu's School training, I once asked him about the 7 Star keywords. My Sifu's response was,"You already know them". So, I asked him what they were and his response was, 'What you need to do is figure out how to use your moves for attack and defense,all can be used for both." As you can see, My Sifu is very good at teaching you to think for yourself and what I discovered is the limits placed on any art are Self-imposed and controlled by your level of understanding and imagination or ability to visualize.
Having said the above let me apply this approach to a classical keyword formula. Let's start with hook,
gather and pluck. First let's add one more word to the above keywords so, we will have hook-step,Gather-step and pluck-step. Then we can also add throw so, have hook-throw,gather-throw and pluck-throw. All of these keyword combinations can be found in the Collapsing Step form in the early movements of the form.
You must also use hooking, gather and plucking bodywork in order to apply it efficiently.
I will let this marinade a little and then I will add some spice......... ;)
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[yu shan]

Is this go lo tsai? Excuse my spelling. And this bodywork, do you mean Fa-Jing energy? Thank you Shrfu Thomas.

[seung ga faat]

Yu Shan,
Yes, Gou,Lou,Cai/Tsai or Ngau,Lao,Choy/Cheui.
Fa-jing is one element of bodywork but don't forget the shape or pattern the body makes when doing these moves. The body pace and delayed can make the applications more efficient. :)
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[mantis108]

and pardon my rather blunt post. I am not sure if reductionist approach, that is reminiscent of JKD, is productive to develope PM techniques. There might be some benefits to it but overall development may not be beneficial by this method.

With the Go-lu-Tsai, there are 2 Shun Fa (body method) IMHO that are very important - Teng (leaping) and Nuo (shifting). There is a drill in the QiShou (7 hands), Tao Hua San (peach flower blooming), etc., that teaches Go-lu-tsai with Nuo. There are other Sau Fa (applications) such as "Gwa Hu Pu Chan", "Bai Yuan Tau Tao", "Xian Ren Juao Fa" (immortal pulls hair), etc... that teaches Go-lu-tsai with Teng. I am not certain that reinventing the wheel is a good idea although sometimes it is a necessary evil.

Frankly, I am concern with the trend that equates PM approach with JKD approach. It has happen to other CMA styles that starve for original application teachings. I believe it is PM instructors' responsibilities not to let that happen. Personally, I am quite uncomfortable with JKDize PM.

Just a thought

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Mantis108,

I agree completely. Too often I hear of students being told to figure applications out for themselves. It is a teacher's responsibility to teach the applications of the techniques. What good is practicing the form if you do not understand it. Whenever I hear this, I am led to believe that the teacher either does not know the applications himself or is unwilling to teach them to that student. I hear phrases like "spoon-feeding" as an excuse for this type of teaching but I think a qualified teacher should teach at least basic applications for the techniques presented in the forms.

I do believe that students must digest what is taught to them on their own in order to grow. They must analyze the techniques, the forms, the applications taught to them. When they have practiced them sufficiently, they may experiment with different combinations or even other methods of applying the technique. But to offer no application instruction whatsoever is irresponsible teaching IMHO.

YM

[seung ga faat]

Again Thank you Andy.
Do not know JKD and I have know need for it.
My way of see limitless combinations in the forms and the style comes from my view of the style and it is just as valid an approach as any of the things you mentioned,108.
Young Mantis I do teach applications and so does my
Sifu.I don't however jump to conclusions based on incident or on the beginning of a post which really is speaking about movement and energy as it is applied in the forms.This is just part of a learning and teaching tool. Just like my Sifu way was his way of getting to explore my options.
PM is a ART. Open to exploration and interpretation.YM say hello to Robert J. for me.
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[yu shan]

Young Mantis

Well said, and thank you! A never ending battle with certain groups.

[Young Mantis]

SGF,

I never said you don't teach applications. I do not know what or how you teach. Quite frankly, I am glad to hear that you do. I was making a comment on the state of teaching at some schools.

It amazes me how there are people out there teaching Praying Mantis after only a few years of study. There is so much depth to this style that I believe it takes many many years of practice and analyzation to fully understand this system no matter who the sifu is. Now I am not directing this at you specifically so please don't feel like I am trying to allude to anything about you. Outside of your visit to my Sifu's school, I do not know you.

I agree that the student must learn to think how to make the style his/her own. There are so many techniques and options taught to a praying mantis stylist that he must figure out which ones work best for him in a given situation. However, I do not believe that it means that the student must figure out the applications on his own. How does he know he got it right? As much as it is an art, it is also a technical skill. One must know how to use his tools correctly and that can only be learned by being taught by someone qualified to do so. I have used this analogy before but I'll say it again: you can force a round peg into a square hole if you try hard enough but is it efficient or beneficial to do so? A student can find a way to make his interpretation of a technique work but does that make it right?

Open to exploration? Absolutely. Open to interpretation? Within the confines of the principles and theories of the system.

YM

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by Andy Miles
Its a difficult balance. . I taught my first batch of students with surgical detail. I gave them the mneumonic devices, training schedule, and diet, so they could just concentrate on training and be better than I was at the same amount of time. I cottled and encouraged. I let them throw me, so I could see where they were losing connection. I supervised every punch. They grew quickly. They gained abilites that took me months in a week.

In the end. I had students who couldn't explain things without using my words. They hit a plateau and never got past it. They were technicians, not martial artists. I crippled them from over nurturing. As lao tse said refering to governing, "Too much poking spoils the fish." You need to figure things out to make them your own. Otherwise, your a rigid drone and can't improvise. As a teacher, I needed to give them guidence, but allow them to do their own growing.

Andy,
I agree, it is a balance. There is guidance and then there is baby sitting. Students cannot be overly corrected. They have to be allowed to make mistakes. If I am corrected every single time I try to apply a technique, then all I will feel is frustrated. The student should understand that mistakes or failure is ok as long as they learn from the experience. I can honestly say that I am not able to effectively apply a technique 100% when I practice with my classmates. But when I can't I try to understand why. It doesn't mean that the technique doesn't work, usually I have done something wrong or I have to make an adjustment because of the situation. Or it could be that for that given instance, the distance between us or the size of the opponent, the technique is not the best option in that case. I do not believe every technique works all the time in every situation. It is important to recognize which technique to use given a specific scenario.

"They gained abilites that took me months in a week."

I do not believe martial arts, particularly the Praying Mantis style, is something that can be crammed. There is something to be said for gaining abilities over an extended amount of time. Time and work need to be put in to have gung fu. There are no shortcuts, no fast track. The student might physically be able to do something within a week but won't have the understanding gained from working on it for months.

YM

[mantis108]

Hi Seung Ga Faat and All,

As Young Mantis adeptly put (thanks for the input and I agree with you :) too), the comments are not directed at you but rather the methodology toward building Mantis skills. It is not personal by any mean. Please pardon, if I have offended you.

Personally, there is a huge difference between learning, or teach for that matter, self-defense skill and understanding plus building a system. It is a difference of how to Vs why so.

Kung Fu to a large degree is like math. You start with a supposition and work with different methods. Then you acquire formulas which would give you satisfying results all the time. You might also put a few theories together to form a larger theorum. Kung Fu to me works in similar manner and the margin for error is almost zero if exist at all. Classical Kung Fu systems are like that.

In case of Mantis the 12 keywords IMHO is the formula, expressed by drills for training purposes, for your style. It is a templet that articulate the traits of your style. If it is subjected to artistic licensing then why not abandant it altogether? Why bounded by it? I understand that are various ways of interpreting the 12 keywords such as looking at each word separately, Pairing them together, or even grouping them 4 as a group. There are also people, advanced practitioners, who would rather drop the whole thing. What they've achieved is Kung Fu in its purest form where styles really don't matter. But then I put to you what makes mantis mantis to begin with?

Andy's concern about students can't think for themselves and they are but the image of the teacher is legit. I also agreed that teaching is a balancing act. Moreover it is an art onto itself. However, like he said in a very short time they gained the knowledge that took him much longer to acquire. So they walk the walk. To me that's already something worthwhile. What Andy had offered them was the hands on experience that a responsible teacher of CMA must provide. Next they can talk the talk. Andy had shown the gateway. Now it is their turn to entire the path. I think CMA teachers today are way too concern about the Bruce Lee type of students. I have students who come armed with the "knowledge" from books and the internet. They certainly talk the talk. They even question the validity of drills and forms. Guess what? These are the people who end up believing in them and devour all of them. In fact, yearn for more. "Knowledge" gave them hopes and dreams. Kung Fu, Mantis Kung Fu, gives them reality check. The humbling effect is what classical Kung Fu systems have on people.

Once again to learn Mantis as a system, it is IMHO best to be holistic. Focus on the basics, drill the drills and mind the forms, and there are plenty of them. Why reinvent the wheel? Between creativity and artistic licensing, there is but a fine line. Anyway, that is just my take on the issue. I understand that to each their own.

Regards

Mantis108

[seung ga faat]

To All,
Do you see the principle combinations that I listed in the forms or not?:)
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[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Seung,

I do not understand.
There is too much information in your post.
Also, besides Yushan's first post I don't see why others wrote the responses they did.
So I don't understand their posts in relation to yours either.

I guess you are not trying to find different opinions on concepts here.
I don't see if you are trying to stimulate our thought so we have a deeper understanding or just trying to teach us.

Four points I don't comprehend.
-12 keywords.
differ greatly from school to school. You want to talk about these, but don't say which words your school uses.
Well, no matter. We can talk about the first three you did mention.

-But I don't see how the action of LO can be construed to mean gather.
I thought seize was a good translation.

-then adding the words step or throw.
There are many ways to interpret these word combinations and it isn't explained clearly so I am lost here.

-Then you say it is in Beng Bu.
So it is like puzzle peices for us to fiddle with.

I usually don't like to think that much all at once.

[BeiTangLang]

Right there with ya Tainan....just didn't feel like typing it all.
:D

[Young Mantis]

I am sorry that my posts do not address the original topic. I was reacting to the comments made by Mantis108 so maybe that should have been it's own thread. It is also why I say it does not specifically pertain to Seung Ga Faat.

As to the original post and your points raised, I am not sure I follow your train of thinking as it pertains to Bung Bo. I also generally group ngou, lou, choi together so to add other words or actions in between these three specifically does not make much sense to me. I understand some people treat each keyword separately. I tend not to.

YM

[mantis108]

I realize I might have unintentionally alluded to that your method might be somewhat similar to the JKD approach. I understand that could be an insult to traditional Mantis stylist. For that I apologize. I also apologize for unintentionally putting you on the defense. However, it would be more clear about your method if you would give some concrete examples to the ideas that you are talking about. Like Tainan Mantis said there simply too much and too broad about what you proposed on the forum. As far as the 12 Keywords found in the Bung Bo, I would have thought that Sifu Lee Kam Wing is the one strong proponent of this concept. May I ask if you are from Chiu Chi Man's lineages? You have brought up a good topic for discussion. Hope that many will further benefit from it.

Best regards

Mantis108

[seung ga faat]

I am not really on the defensive it is just than I am a horrible typist when it comes to using the keyboard to express myself.
108 yes I am from CCM Lineage. My Sifu learned from
Chui Luen,Sigung and visited CCM,Si-Taigung many times.
Let me simplify my original post. The keyword/principles are or can be used to define movement that occurs in the body,legs,and of course the arms/hands. My point is, they are principles of movement/action.For example; in Bung Bo you open with evade,parry & step followed by punch & Step.
Now let's look at the leg's and feet. The right leg and foot travel in a clockwise hooking pattern so that it lands behind your adversaries lead leg.
This step is followed by a step back in the direction you just came from but you are carrying you adversaries leg and picking it from it's foundation.
First the leg/foot hooks,then gathers,followed quickly by the pick/pluck.There are numerous variations to the BB form beginning but, this is the basic way taught at our kwoon without the jumping.
Maybe this is easier to understand. :)
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[mantis108]

Thank you for the clarification and thank you for sharing such an interesting concept. I think I see where you are coming from. Personally, I believe what you have said is where we find the stylistic differences in various PM even among students of the same school. Frankly, it is not about which is better or more profound. It is just different in combat approach IMHO.

It would seem to me that you have extended the 12 keywords are principles of body movement concept further. This concept is in my view quite popular among the HK 7 stars groups, which reflect their Jing Wu experience to a certain extent.

I am not sure about what the Mainland China 7 Stars groupes' perspective on it. May be Brendan could add something.

So far I have come across a few versions of 12 keywords. It would seem 8 Step is pretty much the only one that puts the body method (shan, Zhuan, Teng, and Nuo) right into the 12 keywords. The other versions are pretty indirect. In other words, the body method is only implied. The 12 keywords mainly cover techniques (sau fa/hands) IMHO. This created some space for imaginative interpretation if we seperate the 12 keywords from the rest of the important PM material such as the "Importances On Short Strikes" which is all about body method in relation to usage of moves. BTW, the "Importances On Short Strikes" can be found on the "Tanglang Lanjie Quan" book p. 15 by Shr Zhang Zhong and Yang Feng Shr. Things like long move short use and short move long use, etc... are covered by this very short paragraph. This is why I said holistic approach of PM is important.

Having said all that it doesn't mean that exploring the different concepts that which is your style's forte is out of the question. Like I have said before it is not a question of right/wrong, better/worst, etc... It is just different. If you can find what you need, more power to you. Certainly the 12 keywords are great conversation piece amongst the PM communities.

Best regards

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

I think I see the application.
Using the right foot to perform a dengpu(dengta) type throw.

But why use the term "go"?
There are so many instances where it is described as part of "hand techniques"

While the method you describe ...
"...carrying your adversaries leg and picking it from it's foundation..."
...clearly falls under tie kao.

Since tie kao are the last two of the 12 keywords why does one technique need to be described as "go" method as well as "tie kao" method?
Tie kao already includes all the methods where legs touch and takedowns involving legs are performed.

If you use "go" to describe this throw then how does this throw relate to "tie kao"?

[seung ga faat]

108 & TM,
Thanks for your responses. I will say more when I have more time to respond.
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[flem]

you guys ever break down the term analyze?

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
Are you trying to make fun of us?

[flem]

tainan,

no, just wondering:)

[mantisben]

Originally posted by seung ga faat
For example; in Bung Bo you open with evade,parry & step followed by punch & Step.
Now let's look at the leg's and feet. The right leg and foot travel in a clockwise hooking pattern so that it lands behind your adversaries lead leg.
This step is followed by a step back in the direction you just came from but you are carrying you adversaries leg and picking it from it's foundation.

Good technique.

I used to think of the 12 keywords in pairs. Now, I tend to think of each keyword individually. Not to say that I don't EVER think of the 12 keywords in pairs anymore. But looking at each keyword individually is definitely enriching my knowlege (what little I have) of Praying Mantis techniques for fighting.

[seung ga faat]

Now you are in mantis catches cicada act,followed by left rolling elbow-right gathering hand,left hook-outward hand,left ccw circling palm and suspend-crashing/piercing palm.(during this act the left arm/hand sticks to the adversaries right arm and seeks to break his arm and collar bone)(the right hand uses suptle controlling, gathering and plucking to gain leverage and the juen bo is used to stay ahead of the adversaries escapes and counters)
Let's see we have lean, hook,gather,suspend,crash/crush,beat and pluck along with,stick/cling & advance to name just a few principles all contained in this simple portion of the Bung Bo attack. :)
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[Young Mantis]

SGF,

I understand you are trying to find the 12 keywords in the BB form. I don't however follow your explanation of the techniques. I think it would be more clear if you could explain what your opponent is doing as well...in a sense, what is the ling side to your interpretation of this form? This would explain a lot about your choice of body position, footwork, and application.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Yeah,
It is tough to understand technique from reading.
One I find easy to read is like this...

Yi and Jia are the names given to the two opponents in most manuscripts of many different styles.

Yi and Jia: face off in left stance.
Yi: left straight punch
Jia: intercepts with left straight punch
Yi: presses said punch and sends right straight punch
Jia: intercepts with right straight punch

Double Seal

Yi: right hand grabs (Jia's right hand) and left hand grabs or presses(Jia's right elbow).
As Yi is doing this he jumps(lift right leg first) to his right and closer to Jia.
He places his left leg behind Jia's left leg.

If Jia moves back then...

[mantis108]

I am under the impression that SGF is describing using the Mantis Catches Cicada to deal with a right lead straight punch. He is looking at the nuances of the move and trying to associate the 12 keywords with them as much as possible. I surmise he's trying to come across the idea of Chai, which is to look at infinite changes that is available to a move. Chai, in WHF view, is not to repeat what is already taught in Ling and Pi stages but to look into other possiblities. In this case, SGF would be attempting to work with the 12 keywords of his style and from his lineage's perspective.

Just a thought

Mantis108

[Oso]

but

why could you not take the 12 key words (whatever they happen to be for you) and place them on x and y coordinates and then explore the combinations? certainly, some of them may not work together but wouldn't that be a good exercise?

from what reading I have done it seems that the 12 key words are usually paired in a linear fashion. why wouldn't you take 1,3,6 {for example} and work them together?(or see if they worked somehow)

just a curious thought.

[seung ga faat]

108,
yes,yes,yes........
Also the keywords are just words used to describe actions after they have happened.Artists always title their art after the fact.
Mantis a longfist art.The attacks are like one continuous or long fist.The attacks are movements and changes in movement these changes are described by the keywords.Movements are not bound by the keywords that one of the reasons for keys, they are to open locks and perhaps behind the locked doors is where the true treasure lies.
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[mantis108]

Thank you for the clarification and thanks for sharing your methodology. :)

Best regrads

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Mantis108,

I understand SGF is trying to explore options or variations to the form. When I asked for the "ling", I was asking for what the other person is doing so that I might understand more clearly what SGF was trying to describe. Tainan understood what I meant. All of SGF's descriptions are very one sided. He does not mention how his opponent reacts to each of these techniques which I think is important to understand his technique. I was not asking for his version of the Ling Bung Bo form. Perhaps the word "ling" threw you off. Not "Ling Bung Bo" proper, "ling" as in the "other" side. I don't think SGF is trying to present "Ling Bung Bo". I don't even know if he knows that form. Just trying to get a clearer picture.

SGF,

Yes, movement is not bound by keywords. You can move in a fashion that does not fit any of the keywords. But then are you still doing mantis? Individual movement does not make mantis. Forming your hand into a mantis diew sau does not make something mantis. The keywords define or guide the style. The treasure may be behind the locked doors. But if you do not know how to use the keys, then you may never know how to unlock those doors to get the treasure.

I actually don't put that much emphasis on the keywords. I understand them and accept them for what they are. A guideline of the style. But for us, we are taught the techniques, practice them and their applications and later figure out which keywords they belong to. It sounds to me that some people look at the keywords and try to create or figure out applications for them. Kind of like reverse-engineering. While I think there is some value to that as an exercise, I have enough material to practice that keeps me quite busy as it is.

Good luck with your continued exploration of the style.

YM

[mantis108]

I hear you and I understand where you are coming from. I would like to address few impressions regarding SGF's posts and subsequently yours.

1) I am uncertain whether SGF is fully prepare for an indepth discussion of such an interesting topic. It would seem that he is tossing an idea around. May be he did not taken into account the critical thinking skills and knowledgeable practitioners that frequence this forum.

2) It is not fair IMHO to gauge his understanding or knowledge of his style and lineage based on little that he is willing to release. So I believe it would be better to give him benefit of the doubt. Perhaps when he reorganized his thoughts and take the time to layout a more detailed input, we would then see his depth of knowledge.

3) Frankly, I am underwhelm by his seemingly, as you would put it, reverse engineering approach which also IMHO has a strong hint of JKD. Having said that I still appreciate his sharing and efforts. Again I am merely saying that his earlier post gave me that impression which he already clarified that he did not know of JKD teachings.

4) We must also remember that not all PM practitioners have access to PM classics or Quanpu. It is somewhat of a handicap; hence, reinventing the wheel may be necessary for some. Patience and assistance should be offered by those who are fortunate to have come across such material. This way the PM community would only grow stronger.

5) As far as I am concern, I do not think that breaking down the nuance of a move and/or founding the 12 keywords within the context of a move, or even combination for that matter, indicates greater level of understanding nor attainment of PM. Since there exists many versions of 12 keywords which are different drastically from style to style. I fear that type of knowledge, however wonderful by perception, would only carry the PM study within the confines of the Kwoon.

6) I understand that you, Tainan, and I pretty much think in similar terms when it comes to applications since we have similar training backgrounds and might have similar training (I believe your Sifu and myself have the same teacher and I have worked with Tainan in person) and study material. We tend to look at countering of the opponent immediately and not just the initial attack by the opp and stop at that point. I believe that level of understanding and respect is clear and present.

Finally, I think we should encourage dialogue and sharing however great and small. This way we would raise the awareness and promote Praying Mantis Kung Fu.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Young Mantis]

Mantis108,

First let me say that I am not trying to discourage any conversation of the style. I asked for clarification only to better understand his point of view. I do not think I fully understand his interpretation because I believe we are not envisioning the same scenario. It then makes it difficult for me to participate in the discussion.

To address your other points:


1) I am uncertain whether SGF is fully prepare for an indepth discussion of such an interesting topic. It would seem that he is tossing an idea around. May be he did not taken into account the critical thinking skills and knowledgeable practitioners that frequence this forum.

I thought he was. SGF has posted many times in the past and often in a similar voice. As Tainan asked: "I don't see if you are trying to stimulate our thought so we have a deeper understanding or just trying to teach us." Frankly, it has always sounded like the latter to me.


2) It is not fair IMHO to gauge his understanding or knowledge of his style and lineage based on little that he is willing to release. So I believe it would be better to give him benefit of the doubt. Perhaps when he reorganized his thoughts and take the time to layout a more detailed input, we would then see his depth of knowledge.

This is why I ask for clarification. I am not trying to test his knowledge of the style and lineage. I am aware of who he is and who he trained with. I do not question his place in the Mantis community. But it seems that his view or interpretation of the style differs even from his own sect and although I do not believe that to be wrong, it would be more helpful to understand his views if there were more details.


5) As far as I am concern, I do not think that breaking down the nuance of a move and/or founding the 12 keywords within the context of a move, or even combination for that matter, indicates greater level of understanding nor attainment of PM. Since there exists many versions of 12 keywords which are different drastically from style to style. I fear that type of knowledge, however wonderful by perception, would only carry the PM study within the confines of the Kwoon.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have never had so many discussions about the 12 keywords as I have seen on KFO. As I said, it is not something we sit around and discuss. I think understanding them as concepts is important to understanding the style but knowing the applications and how to apply them is more important to the average mantis practitioner.

Let me say once more, I am not questioning anyone's legitimacy, knowledge, or expertise in the style. Perhaps my comments that are meant to be general reflections on the style are taken as attacks on individuals. They are not. I address people's points and then make comments related to them but I am not in any position to question anyone's stance on the style. I know what has been taught to me and what I have taken from the style.

YM

[seung ga faat]

It is not the just beginning and finishing shapes that define a style or usage of a style. It also is not these things that make the style effective.
What defines and makes a style effective is understanding it's way of energy and force usage.
PM was created out of need and ego according to most of the legends. And it seems that since the need is gone all we have left is ......
It is not that I underestimated anyone on this forum at all. In fact it is quite the opposite.I
thought I would be able to hear about other peoples
personal ways of looking at all the info they have received.
I will close with a question; how many times have you thought you were absolutely right about the usage of this art only, to be humbled by your lack of understanding?:)
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[mantisben]

Originally posted by mantis108

5) As far as I am concern, I do not think that breaking down the nuance of a move and/or founding the 12 keywords within the context of a move, or even combination for that matter, indicates greater level of understanding nor attainment of PM. Since there exists many versions of 12 keywords which are different drastically from style to style. I fear that type of knowledge, however wonderful by perception, would only carry the PM study within the confines of the Kwoon.

Mantis108

When PM was first developed, did the founders first come up with the PM techniques, then develop the PM keywords, or did they develop the PM keywords first, then develop the techniques to abide by the keywords? I think the PM principles came first, but I don't know for sure.

Also, if you have TCPM, MeiHua PM, 7*PM, and 8-Step PM interpret the keywords differently, I would assume (and I know I should't. It gets me in trouble often.) that learning the interpretation of the keywords for that particular branch of PM would give you a better insight into THEIR PM style.

Do ALL of the TCPM or 7*PM techniques follow the PM keywords for their branch? If they do, then those keywords are IMPORTANT, and studying and analyzing them thoroughly are important to understanding the techniques within your branch.

If no ALL PM techniques follow the keywords for their branch, then the keywords are NOT important because you can do PM without them. I don't know all PM techniques to say authoritatively, that they ALL follow the PM keywords.

Maybe they're called "key"words because they "unlock" the doors that YoungMantis mentioned. Maybe not...

I humbly accept any correction and/or rebuke.

[BeiTangLang]

SGF, No need to close out,...what was the ling side of these techniques you described?
(Or did you...I need to re-read the post)
BTL


Originally posted by seung ga faat
Now you are in mantis catches cicada act,followed by left rolling elbow-right gathering hand,left hook-outward hand,left ccw circling palm and suspend-crashing/piercing palm.(during this act the left arm/hand sticks to the adversaries right arm and seeks to break his arm and collar bone)(the right hand uses suptle controlling, gathering and plucking to gain leverage and the juen bo is used to stay ahead of the adversaries escapes and counters)
Let's see we have lean, hook,gather,suspend,crash/crush,beat and pluck along with,stick/cling & advance to name just a few principles all contained in this simple portion of the Bung Bo attack. :)

[-N-]

Originally posted by Young Mantis I have never had so many discussions about the 12 keywords as I have seen on KFO

Same here. During the time when I was with Sifu Lai, I can't recall it ever being a topic of discussion ;)

-N-

[seung ga faat]

This reminds me of the famous looney tunes; take me home and shoot me or shoot me now ?
If the principles of mantis came first then we must have some Reading & Writing Insect Sifu's out there :)
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[mantisben]

Originally posted by seung ga faat
If the principles of mantis came first then we must have some Reading & Writing Insect Sifu's out there :)

You are right. The techniques of the Praying Mantis insect came first. I stand corrected. However, not ALL of the Praying Mantis techniques came from the insect (or did they?). Principles were derived from the PM insect's techniques, then MORE techniques were created adhering to the principles. These techniques were considered PM ONLY because they adhered to the PM principles.

Again, the techiques of the Praying Mantis insect came before the Praying Mantis System Principles, Keywords, methods, theories, etc.. You are right Seung Ga Faat!

[seung ga faat]

But, am I right?
There is another legend that states Wong Long created Mantis because he was inspired by a story about a mantis blocking a roadway keeping a battalion of soldiers and a tank from passing. The leader lifted and carried the mantis to the side of the road. The leader created weapons Shaped like mantis and called the soldiers mantis soldiers.
The Legend implies Wong Long already knew about mantis fighting when he started the style :)
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[Young Mantis]

SGF,

Not to be disrespectful but your posts are getting harder and harder to follow. What legend is that? Is it documented anywhere where we might get a more detailed account of this legend?

The only story I have read involving a praying mantis in the road comes from the Taoist philosopher, Chuang-Tzu. He taught a lesson on life using a mantis standing in the road and a cart fast approaching the mantis. The bold and brash mantis in defiance and obstinance, raised its two forearms to stop the cart not knowing its limitations. Sorry, there is no heroic miraculous ending for this story. How can a little mantis stop a cart from crushing it? Chuang-Tzu used this story to teach many things like how a king should rule or how man should live. The moral of the story is that man should know his limitations or place in the universe otherwise he will be crushed by that which he cannot control like the bold mantis that thought it could stop the cart.

Getting back to your legend, I don't quite follow it based on what you have told. Are there more details that you have left out? How does it imply that Wong Long already knew of Mantis fighting before he started the style? Because some military leader decided to call his soldiers mantis soldiers? Because they fashioned weapons in the shape of Mantis forearms? How does that imply they fought with Mantis concepts or principles? If they did, then how is it that Wong Long is credited with the development of the Mantis Style?

If anyone can help me out or has heard this legend and can explain it to me, I would appreciate it because all I have now are just questions.

In the legend that is taught at our school, Wong Long captured and observed a mantis. He provoked it with a straw and after careful analysis discovered that the mantis used 12 principle methods of attack and defense which he then formulated into the 12 Keyword Formula. So you can say the movements of the mantis insect inspired the creation of the keywords which then developed into more techniques.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

SGF,
I can not understand this app.

You say that I am in Mantis catches cicada followed by left rolling elbow etc.
Is this from Beng Bu?
What is rolling elbow?
Of the 64 elbow techniques I don't recall one called rolling elbow.
Only Roliing Dragon Elbow which I don't think exists in 7* especially not 7* from HK.

Most impotant, what is the other person doing while I am doing this elbow as well as the following moves?

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
SGF,

...What is rolling elbow?...


I was kinda wondering what the rolling elbow is also. Maybe some hidden technique within Mantis Catches Cicada?

[mantisben]

Originally posted by seung ga faat
But, am I right?
There is another legend that states Wong Long created Mantis because he was inspired by a story about a mantis blocking a roadway keeping a battalion of soldiers and a tank from passing...

This legend is similar to a legend I remember reading about in another post in the PM forum, but I think it had something to do with the origin of the name of a PM form (Big Chariot/Small Chariot?).

[BeiTangLang]

Cool,...so anyway,...about the body movement comments from SGF?? Many questions asked that are good ones.
If your interested in the beginings of the style, lets start a new thread on it.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
[B]I think I see the application.
Using the right foot to perform a dengpu(dengta) type throw.

What is a "Dengta" type throw? Can you give an example of it in a PM form?


While the method you describe ...
"...carrying your adversaries leg and picking it from it's foundation..."
...clearly falls under tie kao...Tie kao already includes all the methods where legs touch and takedowns involving legs are performed...

I thought "tie kao" had to do with leaning against your opponent to knock him down. Do all PM throws and/or take-downs fall under Tie Kao?

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantisben,
Tell me the names of 7* forms you are familiar with and I will tell you which is deng ta.

TIE KAO
One of the full quotes is tie men kao bi.
It means press the gate and lean on the wall.

Think of an old very large gate.
You have to firmly put your handds on it to push it closed.
Very similar to how you push your opponent with your hands against his hands.

Now think of how you lean on a wall.
It is with your shoulder.

Can you see how leaning follows pressing?
First hands make contact then body makes contact.

Do all throws and takedowns fall under tie kao?
The point is debateable, but to me at least some takedowns don't fall under tie kao.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Mantisben,
Tell me the names of 7* forms you are familiar with and I will tell you which is deng ta.

Partial List of 7* forms:

White Ape Exits Cave
White Ape Steals Peach
Spear Hand
Crushing Steps
PM Steals the Peach
Plum Blossum Hand
3rd Route Essence
18 Old Men
Avoiding the Rigid

[seung ga faat]

YM and others,
The elbow/forearm I am speaking of follows mantis embraces cicada(immortality). The arm makes a counter-clockwise circle as it descends and retreats similar to roll back in Tai Chi. It is immediately followed by a left CCW hook hand folllowed by a palm strike foward.
The legend I am speaking of was written in the magazine Martial Art of China. The issue was on martial arts of Shandong and it included this legend. The article said it was this that legend that influenced Wong Long to create the mantis style. I also was retold this story by Sifu Marlon Ma of Wutang Martial Arts he is Disciple of Master Su.
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[Skarbromantis]

Can't understand a word posted, in any of your posts, it seems like are you trying to come off, like your so overeducated in terms of Mantis knowledge, maybe that's why you can't explain what the HELL you are talking about?

Skard1

[Tainan Mantis]

mantisben,
In HK 7* the term is usually called deng pu, not deng ta.
I don't know the Cantonese pronunciation though.

Sometimes the term tun ta(same ta in deng ta) is also used, but it only signifies the deng ta throw about half the time.

In the form Mei Hua lu/ I think you translate as falling plum flowers has a good example of this throw as the fourth move of the form.

Also, in the mpeg thread I posted is an example of this throw.
It is called deng ta.
We have this throw in the first road of cha chuei almost exactly like the vid clip I posted.
That is the biggest difference between your cha chuei and mine.

In meihua Lu the throw is the same in principle, but the hand strike is different.

You can see that the thrower and throwee both have the right leg in contact.

The way we learn deng pu, as opposed to deng ta, is the thrower has the LEFT leg against the throwee's right leg.

In HK 7*, I assume that is your style, the differentation of the name is made by the hand technique used.

Of course this name stuff isn't too important, but sometimes is useful to know when comparing manuscripts from different teachers.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
mantisben,
In the form Mei Hua lu/ I think you translate as falling plum flowers has a good example of this throw as the fourth move of the form.


AaahHaaaaa! The 4th movement IS a throw! I can find this kind of throw in at least 4 of the forms I know. I don't know all of the "Plum Blossum Falling", but I've got the Won Hon Fun book on the form. I'll be looking for it in the other forms I know.

The way we learn deng pu, as opposed to deng ta, is the thrower has the LEFT leg against the throwee's right leg.

Actually, in the first road of Cha Chui/"Spear Hand" - as it was taught to me - has the Deng Ta throw twice (I think). It is executed simultaneously with an elbow strike in the first and third roads.

If in Deng Ta - as opposed to Deng Pu - the left leg is making contact with the opponent's right leg, isn't there an example of this type of throw in the 2nd road of Bung Bo? In Bung Bo (HK7*) first the lunge punch with the right fist in a right "Bow and Arrow" stance, then the White Ape grab in a left foot forward Horse Stance, then the waist-chop in a left "Bow and Arrow" stance?

In HK 7*, I assume that is your style, the differentation of the name is made by the hand technique used.

In Bung Bo - Palm Strike to the Waist, Left Leg contact with opponents right leg

In Cha Chui/"Spear Hand" - Elbow Strike, right leg contact with opponents right leg.

I believe I practice the 7* HK PM. Thank you again for your instruction.

I know you have to teach and practice, so please answer when you have the time. I'll be waiting...

Utmost Respectfully,

MantisBen

[Tainan Mantis]

Mantisben,
Cha Chuei is almost all deng pu type throws.
But in our school it has 3 deng ta throws also.
The first one is the with the hook punch in the first road.
I see from WHF book that he calls it reverse lu-lu. That is different from ours.

But one of my students studied with Tony Clark and I see that he does it the same way I learned it which is different from WHF book.

The second deng ta is also in the first road.
It is with the elbow strike near the end of the first road.

The third deng ta is the elbow at the beginning of the third road.
WHF calls it little deng pu.

Since these throws can all be done as deng ta or deng pu you and others may do it differently.

The technique in 2nd road of beng bu you refer to is called, even in WHF manuscript, Tyrant treats and waist chop.
I don't know of any such thing as, "white ape grab"
It is different from these other throws. It is ko fa or the confining method.

BTW, As there was some talk of the 7* stance the other day, it's chief use is also ko fa.

The difference is if you step to the inside or outside of your opponent's front leg.

[Young Mantis]

Some comments:


The technique in 2nd road of beng bu you refer to is called, even in WHF manuscript, Tyrant treats and waist chop.
I don't know of any such thing as, "white ape grab"
It is different from these other throws. It is ko fa or the confining method.


I agree that this technique does not really fall under dengpu (dung pok in Cantonese) although I do regard it as more than just a confining technique but also a takedown as well.


The difference is if you step to the inside or outside of your opponent's front leg.

From this statement it seems that you define dengpu as a takedown by sweeping the inside of the opponent's front leg. This seems limiting to me as I have been taught to apply the dengpu type throws found in Chop Choi by sweeping either inside or outside the front leg. Did I interpret your post correctly?

I believe the difference is in what you are doing to the opponents leg. In dengpu, I am displacing the opponents leg as in a sweep. This is regardless of inside or outside. In kau fa, as you explain, I am stepping behind the opponent's leg to confine or trap the opponent but I have the choice of applying a throw.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

YM,
The point I was trying to make is that in your 7* PM the deng pu throw is like you say.
While I learned Deng Ta to differeentiate between the 2 differences you mentioned.

So, in our school...
Deng Pu:
My right leg sweeps inside of your left leg.

Deng Ta:
My right leg sweeps outside of your right leg.

Confining technique in 2nd road of beng bu "waist chop" is also a takedown as you say.

[Young Mantis]

TM,

I see. Thank you for the clarification on the terms. As far as I know, we don't differentiate by name inside or outside. What would the "ta" character in "deng ta" translate as? I am just curious what the Chinese character is for your term.

Thanks,

YM

[mantis108]

I use the same appellation as Tainan

<<<Deng Pu:
My right leg sweeps inside of your left leg.

Deng Ta:
My right leg sweeps outside of your right leg.>>>

Pu (pok in Cantonese) describes the way the opponent falls which is facing down. Essentially, he is being sent forward to the ground face first.

Ta (Taap in Cantonese) describes the way the opponent falls which is facing up. Essentically, he is being sent backward to the ground back of skull first. If this is done correctly, it is quite lethal because of a fractured skull.

Mantis108

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
The technique in 2nd road of beng bu you refer to is called, even in WHF manuscript, Tyrant treats and waist chop.
I don't know of any such thing as, "white ape grab"
It is different from these other throws. It is ko fa or the confining method.

I've always thought that the double-hand grab - your right-hand, palm down, grabs the opponents right-arm near the wrist, and your left-hand, palm up, grabs the opponents right-arm just above the elbow - was the "White Ape" grab.

I think it is also used in the form "Plum Blossum Hand", as the last movement in the 1st road. The double-hand grab is combined with a low right-leg sweep.

When you wrote "Tyrant treats" did you mean "Tyrant Retreats"? Is that the movement in the 2nd road of Bung Bo where you grab your opponents arm with both hands then shift into a horse stance?

If the correct name of this technique is called "Tyrant Retreats", I want to call the technique by it's correct name.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis
Some comments:

...I believe the difference is in what you are doing to the opponents leg. In dengpu, I am displacing the opponents leg as in a sweep. This is regardless of inside or outside. In kau fa, as you explain, I am stepping behind the opponent's leg to confine or trap the opponent but I have the choice of applying a throw.
YM


Would it be accurate to state the following (in your school)?

Deng Pu: Sweeping/displacing opponents leg to throw opponent

Deng Ta: Confining opponents leg to throw opponent

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by mantisben



Would it be accurate to state the following (in your school)?

Deng Pu: Sweeping/displacing opponents leg to throw opponent

Deng Ta: Confining opponents leg to throw opponent

Mantisben,

That would not be correct. To my knowledge, we do not use the term deng ta at all. Confining the opponents leg as in using the 7* stance falls under kau fa or locking methods.

YM

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis


Mantisben,

That would not be correct. To my knowledge, we do not use the term deng ta at all. Confining the opponents leg as in using the 7* stance falls under kau fa or locking methods.

YM

Would it be accurate to state the following (in your school)?

Deng Pu (Tun Ta?): Sweeping/displacing opponents leg to throw opponent

Kau Fa: Confining opponents leg to throw opponent

Do you use the term Deng Pu?

I'm just trying to understand the categories of the these 2 types of throws/takedowns. There is a difference conceptually between sweeping your opponents leg, and confining it.

[Young Mantis]

Mantisben,

Not sure what you are confused about. I stated that we use the term "deng pu" although to be more precise, we say it in Cantonese ("dung pok"), but in this thread I used dengpu to not confuse people.

Kau Fa is not exclusively locking or confining the legs for a takedown. It would be incorrect to define kau fa as just confining the leg for a takedown. Kau means locking, Fa means method. Any locking technique can fall under kau fa whether it involves the arms or legs.

As for your example in Bung Bo, the waist chop or Yiew Jahm is practiced in my school to include the trapping of the leg. If you can pull the opponent off balance enough to effect a throw, then you have a takedown. If you don't, then at least you have kept him from retreating and positioned yourself to deliver the waist chop strike. I can't think of a specific term for the throw that accompanies this type of technique. When we practice this technique, we just refer to it as yiew jahm. I don't think we have a separate category for that type of takedown. It's just an extra plus to that type of technique.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Young Mantis,
Near the end of beng bu are 3 repeating moves called Tun Ta Shan Feng.
It is the same Ta as in Deng Ta.
Also, one big dif between our schools is that in this move we do the deng ta throw.

Also, when my shrfu returned from studying Tong Bei in Tien Jing they had this same move with the same app we learned and the same drill.
So his conclusion was that this move was from Tong Bei.

Though I have seen other versions from Shandong that do it like the HK 7* version.
Also, the Taiji PM version also doesn't do it like we do it.
So my conclusion is that the way we learn it in Taiwan is somewhat unique.

The earliest version I have seen is the 1964 recording of Su Yuzhang's students. They do it like we do it.

Mantis Ben,
You have described the move I am talking about.
Though retreats might sound logical it is wrong.
The term is Ba Wang Ching Ke.

Ba Wang means tyrant and Ching Ke means to treat someone. Usually to a meal or drink...
So I am the tyrant and I am forcing you against your will to enjoy my "good" hospitality!

Then as you try to get away I "follow" and "send" you on your way with the waist chop

[B.Tunks]

Hi all,

In PRC (all branches), those 3 repeated throws are usually played as Qian Gou Ti (front hook kicks), though the in (sweep/kick) vs out ( hands) , scissoring motion is exactly the same.
B.T

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Brendan,
That is what I meant.
Thanks for the confirmation.
Only in Taiwan is it different, at least from what I have seen.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Young Mantis Kau Fa is not exclusively locking or confining the legs for a takedown. It would be incorrect to define kau fa as just confining the leg for a takedown. Kau means locking, Fa means method. Any locking technique can fall under kau fa whether it involves the arms or legs.

...When we practice this technique, we just refer to it as yiew jahm. I don't think we have a separate category for that type of takedown. It's just an extra plus to that type of technique.

YM Thank you for your response. I understand that I may be trying to categorize this technique, when it shouldn't be categorized.

Thanks again!

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Mantis Ben,
You have described the move I am talking about.
Though retreats might sound logical it is wrong.
The term is Ba Wang Ching Ke.

Ba Wang means tyrant and Ching Ke means to treat someone. Usually to a meal or drink...
So I am the tyrant and I am forcing you against your will to enjoy my "good" hospitality!
...

"Tyrant Treats". I like the sound of that. It reminds me of a brute-force type-of-guy forcefully pulling his "unwilling" buddy into a bar for a drink.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise with me, again!

[seung ga faat]

This is an oldie but a goodie. Let talk about it again with so of the new bloods on the forum.
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