What is no tension state?

[Phenix]

Song, IMHO, i called it no tension state insteat of Relax.
since it has no tension but it is not diffuse and scatering.

There lie the DNA of an art. Whether it is Hard bow or Soft internal...

Song, Some belive when it is song, one sink one's body weight to the ground. Thus, there is rooting.

Song, Some belive the body should have a slight or strong feeling of Weight.

Song, Some belive one will feel the horce or stance is tensing, weight singking to the legs. Since it is rooting and this is a correct way.

Song, Some belive if the stance still feel "powerfull" sinking as describe above. it not Song. and the body breaking into two section, the top and bottom are not wholely integration.

Song, Some belive it is similar to silk floating in the air sligthly waving with the breath of inhale and exhale.


Song, some belive it is similar to a sky scraper with structure standing but full of empty space within the sky scraper where wind can feely passed by the whole sky scraper..

Song....


So what is song for you?
and how to get there?

[kj]

Originally posted by Phenix
Song, IMHO, i called it no tension state insteat of Relax.
since it has no tension but it is not diffuse and scatering.

There lie the DNA of an art. Whether it is Hard bow or Soft internal...

Song, Some belive when it is song, one sink one's body weight to the ground. Thus, there is rooting.

Song, Some belive the body should have a slight or strong feeling of Weight.


I wouldn't argue against these, though I don't presume such perceptions need to be excessive.


Song, Some belive one will feel the horce or stance is tensing, weight singking to the legs. Since it is rooting and this is a correct way.

This may happen, but I don't believe it is necessary merely for the purpose of achieving a song state.


Song, Some belive if the stance still feel "powerfull" sinking as describe above. it not Song. and the body breaking into two section, the top and bottom are not wholely integration.

I think that feeling powerful in the "usual" way is not helpful.


Song, Some belive it is similar to silk floating in the air sligthly waving with the breath of inhale and exhale.


Song, some belive it is similar to a sky scraper with structure standing but full of empty space within the sky scraper where wind can feely passed by the whole sky scraper..


May be, but this has not yet been my experience.


Song....


So what is song for you?

I once asked Chen Xiaowang to explain it, thinking he of all people should know, and might lend me and some others deeper insight. To my dismay, he said it simply means "relax." I accepted his answer, but still believe it is a special kind of relaxing.

Settled. Calm. Perfectly balanced. Effortless. Allowing, not forcing. Body and mind. Not limp, but no tension. Substantial, like the pull of gravity on warm wax positioned on an upright wick. At least for me, for now; abilities and perceptions change with time and practice.


and how to get there?

For me, it emerges in Siu Nim Tau; from there it permeates my practice. We don't commonly speak of it using the song term though. We usually just say "settle" or "relax," though over time, and through practice and sharing with others, one learns the feeling. I know this is only one of many paths for approaching song though. I say approach, as I don't yet know if one can "achieve" it like a binary on/off thing.

How is it with you?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj



How is it with you?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo


Hi KJ,


IMHO,

What is for me?

silk floating in the air sligthly waving with the breath of inhale and exhale.

How to get there?

similar to a sky scraper with structure standing but working to acquite empty space within the sky scraper by moving out tension in every floor. Then , the wind can feely passed by the whole sky scraper.. But no weight should sink to everywhere in the structure. otherwise, it is stagnated...

How does it feel?

Feel how silk floating in the air. it levitate, stretch freely.... light weight.. the chan saying says " one threat of silk will not clink."
and how is Theta feel? the body like silk and the mind in theta... the deep...

Without close to this, even healing will not take place.... not to mention the dynamic application...


But then attach to forcefully or intentionally finding this will create worst tension in mind and body.


My belief

Without, vision, method, feeling. or positive expectation, accountblity of process, and positive feedback,

But just a word "relax", it can't get there.

But then, how much does it cost to have to learn this ancient chinese secret? :D



move the storage out from each and every floor of the sky scapper.. let the wind blown throught... then one is there tonight. dont have to waite until tomorrow..... remember it is not dumping the storage good to the basement .....



Regards
Hendrik

[[Censored]]

...remember it is not dumping the storage good to the basement...

LOL, indeed! "I don't feel powerful...YOU feel I am powerful". :)

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Hendrik,


I know I said I was going to take a break but I happened to finish a pinch earlier than expected so!!!


Good topic.

Sung for me is about letting go so one can try to relax. If you cannot achieve any level of Sung then your mind will be too active and your body will be too tense. How can one accept if this is the case? Can one achieve Loi Lao etc. without Sung?

Easier said than done tho! Man its hard to be tranquil.

Without some form of Zhuang practice early on this will be impossible to achieve and even if you do have Zhuang practice from early on it is still going to be hard to achieve.


I will post some great stuff below!


Chengbao Zhuang ( Supporting Embracing Post )
[Chengbao Zhuang is one of the most important postures in the Yangsheng Zhuang (NourishingLife Post) postures. "Zhuang" means standing like a wooden post planted in the ground. Yang-sheng Zhuang postures are basic post standing exercises with feet evenly spaced apart.]In Yiquan, while practicing Yangsheng Zhuang, you should imagine any type of beautiful nature scenes that you may have experienced, such as standing on top of a mountain (feeling the wind), wading slowly in a flowing river or shal-low sea (feeling the resistance of the water), or walking in a beautiful forest or grassland. Gradually you develop a feeling of being natu-rally relaxed and very comfortable as if you are really standing in those beautiful natural sur-roundings (you might even want to sometimes imagine that you are not exercising, but are out enjoying a vacation!). Initially, your muscles will probably not be able to relax for long peri-ods while holding these static poses. You need your imagination to help you achieve this and also to learn how to control your mental activi-ties. Step by step, learn how to use your mental activities to control your strength. Gradually you learn to adjust and harmonize the aspects of tension and relaxation in your mental activities and muscles. Of the two, the tension-relaxation of mental activities is more important. In practice, after using ¡°Fa Li¡± which means ¡°issuing strength¡± that bursts out, you can control your muscles, rapidly tensing and relaxing them almost at the same time. Any muscular activity is controlled by the neural system and the neural system is affected by mental activity. That's why mental training is most important.

[yuanfen]

kj sez:
I once asked Chen Xiaowang to explain it, thinking he of all people should know, and might lend me and some others deeper insight. To my dismay, he said it simply means "relax." I accepted his answer, but still believe it is a special kind of relaxing.

Settled. Calm. Perfectly balanced. Effortless. Allowing, not forcing. Body and mind. Not limp, but no tension. Substantial, like the pull of gravity on warm wax positioned on an upright wick. At least for me, for now; abilities and perceptions change with time and practice.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kathy Jo: why dismayed?
CXW was giving you the answer!
He does know!
Correct structure but the mind is cam and clear.
Of course the structure of taiji standing and wing chun
sil lim tao are different- but they both point to
the antinomies of relaxation and control...
necessary for fajing or short power.
joy

[Phenix]

Hi JIm,

Ha ha ha. Time to talk about real stuffs. Thanks for sharing.


Come down to silicon valley, I cann't promise you you will become the best fighter like Leong Jan because I am not a fighter at all but an engineer.

But Song? ha ha hah, not a problem. Free of Charge. if you trying my Brain Storming machine (similar to the "brain storm "movie......:D

Ok, don't come down, you can do it tonight,, ha ha hah a,
just get that Dr. Wild's CD. Listern to it. falling a sleep. Then knowing the Theta.. when you wake up.

it is always easier to get the sung laying in the hard bed first. or flowting in the zero gravity chamber...let go the body.. recognized the state then.... replay that state while standing......:D

KJ is going to say I am nuts again... Zero Gravity Chamber. :D
Hey Joy, I guarentee Hung Fa Ting and Shao Lin Doesn't have it. They use hand bed. The weakness of that is the back is subject to weight.... I did it in Zero Gravity Chamber.. ha ha ha
Welcome to High Tech WingChun. We have the Technology! Ha ha ha. Matrix is reality. relax. :cool:

[kj]

Thanks Hendrik. I admit, your descriptions tend to be much prettier than mine. :)


Originally posted by Phenix
But no weight should sink to everywhere in the structure. otherwise, it is stagnated...

I don't mind this, just wondering if you have a sensation of ground connection, and if so, what imagery or sensation associated with it?


But then attach to forcefully or intentionally finding this will create worst tension in mind and body.

Forcefully trying to find much of anything seems to have this effect.



Originally posted by Yuanfen
Kathy Jo: why dismayed?
CXW was giving you the answer!
He does know!

Only because as Hendrik wrote "But just a word "relax", it can't get there."

I knew Chen missed the opportunity to reveal more nuance that day. One can relax and be pulled like a lump of jelly to the floor for example; but that isn't what they (or we) are aiming for. The unspoken follow on to his answer is that we are left to discover for ourselves, which in a sense must always be true in our learning. Hints and clearly marked guideposts along the way are helpful though, saving wasted time and randomness. Illustrative descriptions such as those you ("Correct structure but the mind is cam and clear."), Hendrik and others generously provide can be more helpful to those still exploring, than leaving it solely at "relax."


Originally posted by Censored
LOL, indeed! "I don't feel powerful...YOU feel I am powerful".

I concur. ;)

Regards,
- kj

[Phenix]

Originally posted by kj
Thanks Hendrik. I admit, your descriptions tend to be much prettier than mine. :)



I don't mind this, just wondering if you have a sensation of ground connection, and if so, what imagery or sensation associated with it?




Hi KJ,

I always admire Leonardo Davinci. Who can fuse Engingering, art.... I guess Mona Lisa is his Yim Wing-Chun. :D


Imaginary and Sensation?

Different types....

Ok
Let's ask the Bird ;)

that short period of elegant slight "dip" of "weight" and bounce off before it takes off soaring... as needed only just a bit....

otherwise it becomes a tree not a bird.... and a tree is a plant and it is heavy like crazy and a bird is a bird. an eagle also is a bird. Huge but not heavy... springy but not ROOTED DEAD :D






Hendrik