Fa Jing?

[Vapour]

I'm bored so here is Erle Montigue doing Fa Jing.

http://www.taijiworld.com/download/67.wmv

Flame away or am I beating a dead zombie horse?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Has anyone counted the number of times Earl brushes his hair out of his eyes?.. it seems that every movement requires that he attend to his vision.. a poor example of a Martial Artist, unprepared for a real conflict..

I would like to see how those punches affect a heavy-bag.. little if any observable Dantien involvement..

Be well..

[miscjinx]

"little if any observable Dantien involvement"

Not saying anything regarding Erle, just this statement.

Large dantien movements are only the beginning...eventually (mastery) the movements are not "observable" by looking at them and to all appearance is nature movement.

Although I tend to use "observable dantient involvement" as a basis of good internal strength too, I must also always remind myself that to really know I will have to lay a hand on them to feel what is going on.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Do you think it's mandatory for them all to dress like 70's Californian beach bums too?

[jon]

Erle in that clip...
"Thats what we are trying to do, we are trying to be a madman for that split second."

I have this odd feeling he is a mad man 24 hours a day seven days a week all year round.

Still i have to admit his ability to slip the word 'fa-ging' into every sentence at least several times did show some real darn talent :)

I also *really* dont like the way he jumps off the ground when he excecutes.

Still never met him so for all i know he could be amazing, im betting on the negative though.

[Internal Boxer]

TC Bob " Has anyone counted the number of times Earl brushes his hair out of his eyes?.. it seems that every movement requires that he attend to his vision.. a poor example of a Martial Artist, unprepared for a real conflict.."

Ahhh... he is not really brushing his hair out of his face, only lowly mortals will think such rubbish, its actually a secret chi development kata, which enables astral travel, and killing far off enemies by the disintegration of colon poo posions in erles gut, that re mainfest themselves in the enemies cuppa soup, the deadly art of shi.te-chi-chuan. :eek:

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

LOL... I supposed the hair was used to train his hands to cover his face during combat.. Grooming, particularly matters that affect performance, are part of the "warriors" Art.. to maintain one's self such that unkempt hair compromises clarity and performance diminishes the appearance of "warrior" status..

Regarding Dantien involvement.. even at very high levels, the use of the Dantien is evident in the quality of movement.. to break one's root (jumping) suggests a misconception of connectivity..

But, as most others have said, i would have to cross hands with him form an opinion as to the quality of his Art..

Be well..

[bob10]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..

Grooming, particularly matters that affect performance, are part of the "warriors" Art.. to maintain one's self such that unkempt hair compromises clarity and performance diminishes the appearance of "warrior" status..

But, as most others have said, i would have to cross hands with him form an opinion as to the quality of his Art..

Be well..

Hmm. yet wasn't Musashi noted for his unkempt and generally un-Samurai-like appearance?

Met Erle a few years ago. Generally a nice guy though I think he has painted himself into a corner. As for wether what he does is "real" taiji - well that only seems to be Chen style these days :)

cheers

[Grinding Hands]

http://www.yellowdragon-kung-fu.co.uk/

Go to the southern mantis section, page 2. They talk about kin tan ging(gen tan genk)

Me personally i like his ideas torwards that form of explosive power. It sounds simmilar to Bak mei's scared power. To go forward instead of retreat when your scared. The same power that you use to explosively retract when something almost burned you. Through touch sensitivity you learn to strike with that same same explosiveness. Like reprograming your nervous system. I think thats the most powerful ging. You learn to control the subconcious.

The only problem i have is he calls everything fa ging. I wouldnt call what he's doing fa ging perse. Its explosive but its a different type of ging.

[patriot]

Very external.
Unbalanced - watch the swing of his hind leg.

[Golden Arms]

Never judge a book by its cover. He appears to be able to hit hard, and if he hit you with one of those most people would have no idea what even happened. Its up to him to decide if he can get better and how to do so, but he definately appears to be generating power regardless. MA is just like music..everyone wants to label it, but really its just what it is, and what some people think is good others think is terrible, etc.

Just my $.02

[Stacey]

this isn't tai chi...its jeet kun do. He jumped and punched...his waist was moving correctly.

[Happy]

I have talked to Erle a few times via email. He is a really nice guy, and knows a great deal about Tai Chi and other Chinese Martial Arts. I really respect his knowledge.
I’ve been practicing both Japanese and Chinese Martial Arts for 25 years now, and from what I have talked to him about and read his articles, he knows his stuff.

Erle is not "jumping" off the ground; he's putting all of his power thru his arm and fist.
If you can do this, then you know naturally that your feet would tend to come off of the ground. It seems like he is just jumping, but he’s not.

It’s really hard to find a Sifu out there that actually knows how to apply the Martial Art
Applications of Tai Chi Chuan and not just “do the form”
Erle’s one of them.
Happy –Sifu
shaolin68@angelfire.com
:)

[BAI HE]

"If you can do this, then you know naturally that your feet would tend to come off of the ground. It seems like he is just jumping, but he’s not."

Yes that's just what a good TC player want's to do, lose his root.

[taijiquan_student]

"If you can do this, then you know naturally that your feet would tend to come off of the ground"

That's wack.

[BAI HE]

"It’s really hard to find a Sifu out there that actually knows how to apply the Martial Art
Applications of Tai Chi Chuan and not just “do the form”
Erle’s one of them. "

Yes and he's so adept at the martial applications that
he uproots himself, saving his opponent the trouble and effort.
My, how clever!

Somebody kill this thread. Beating the old hippie with a stick is
well... getting old.

[Vapour]

I'm not saying the guy doesn't know how to puch with decent strength. But if you have seen someone who can do proper fajing, you wouldn't call that fajing. Obviously, you haven't so this is moot but trust me on this. If "it seems like he is just jumping", he is not doing fajing. In broadsword clip, when he kick and slap his hand from top of it, he jump up. Another example of incorrect performance of form even by the standard of demonstration wushu.

As many people stated, EM is ex pro wrestler and he seems to have put decent amount of effort in MA. So, of course, he can explian few thing to the *extent* of his experience. If you are decent 3rd degree karate black belt, it is possible for you to give interpretation of taijiquan classics according to your expertise on karate. Plus if you have 3rd degree in black belt, it is not difficult to remain superior fighter to any of your taijiquan students. But just because someone can explain thing doesn't mean such explanation is correct to the full extent of what classics meant.

And many people seems to have favourable impression of EM especially him being very helpful. But this has nothing to do with his martial capability. If such was the case, Ghandi would have been able to kick arse of Mike Tyson.

[bob10]

I've seen several versions of fa-jing, from EM through to Chen Xiao Wang via ba ji, hsing i, the yang style people and others.

To me EM's method seems closer to the Kuntao guys - or at least Rick Hernandez. It also seems to have elements of Chu King Hung's "open and close" body movement. The waist shaking I don't recall seeing in other methods, nor the feet leaving the ground.

Having said that in many ways, whether it is "true" fai jing or not, I think at least EM has made an attempt to present something practical. I found elements of it interesting when I was practicing taiji, but not enough to "sign up" wholesale - though I'd say the same of the other styles too.

[Happy]

BAI HE:
Yes and he's so adept at the martial applications that he uproots himself, saving his opponent the trouble and effort. My, how clever!

You really don't need your "root" if your opponent is knocked out.
I could show you this, if it makes you happier. Are you near Kenmore Square?

[Vapour]

O.K. let me try to explain why one shouldn't even have appearence of jumping.

In taijiquan form, punch are done in following manner. You make forward step, in this case, with your left leg. You turn your hip and punch with right hand. Not that you ever punch like that in real fight. Once you understand the principles, you are going to punch like boxer. Just that exagerated movement of taijiquan make it easy for body to differentiate and recognize the process of punch. As one gain understaing of the principle, you make the step smaller and movement faster.

In punch, your right back leg will generate majority of momentum. As the right leg strech out to initiate punch, your front leg have to be relaxed, otherwise your hip will not turn which prevent the force of back leg to be transfered to turning of hip and torso.

On the other hand, at the moment of impact, it is your left front leg which provide stability from recoil of impact. As the force of back right leg is transfered to hip, upper body, right shoulder and eventually to right hand to the moment of impact, your right leg have to start to relax. If your back leg is not relaxed at this moment, you are tipping yourself forward (or in case of small stance, jumping upward) hence loosing your root. If your punch miss you are exposed to be pulled in or tip forward because your backleg is tipping yourself forward. If you are standing upright like EM, you are open to take down.

Furthermore, if your right leg is tence, the line of force of recoil in term of structure is from your right hand to right leg in straight line. At the moment of impact, this line is varunable to break and the force of recoil will escape to left side of your body and will not properly sink into front left leg. This will prevent the force of punch to be properly transfered to the target. It is like droping a ball made with glass. Because it will shatter at the moment of impact, only part of the mass would become the source of impact.

Therefore, it is the relaxation which is essential to the proper taijiquan punch. If you read the classic, it says the power come from your leg "controled by waist". On the other hand, EM appear to whip his waist to generate punch. He also make very karate like kiai, "HAAAA" when he puch which is an indication that he tense up at the moment of punch which is very external approach to punch. He doesn't seem to know how to relax his leg or hip nor how to differentiate the relaxation between his substantial and insubstantial leg from right to left or left to right which is the reason why he appear to jump when he punch.

Well, that my £0.02.

[Internal Boxer]

Its good to have a laugh at everyone and not take life too seriously, but Vapour you are clearly an arm chair critic, I can understand your view on your appraisal of what Erle is doing, but ultimately the only thing that counts in internal MA is skill and power, if you have never crossed hands with Erle, then your comments have no basis, I actually agree with some of your observations but it is all academic unless you get off your ar.se and cross hands then you will be able to see if his taiji is any good.... fair comment don't you think?;)

[bob10]

Originally posted by Vapour
O.K. let me try to explain why one shouldn't even have appearence of jumping.


Would that also include the jumping movements in taiji forms?

[BAI HE]

LOFL!

[BAI HE]

"You really don't need your "root" if your opponent is knocked out.
I could show you this, if it makes you happier. Are you near Kenmore Square?"

I've been KO'd before, no big deal. Not sure if your threatening me? I moved to Pembroke 2 years ago but I work in town.

So you're a Yang stylist, Earle attacks, if you're sensitive enough when you recieve the attack and feel him break his root and structure what are you going to do with it? That's my point.

Earle is probably a nice guy and has made a good living.
If you go to Silky Way in Chinatown and you look you'll see that he's gone from paper Xeroxed pamphlets on Dim Mak, to
a gorgeous Hardcover book on Bagua.
He could avoid alot of this contreversy by assimilating all his stuff and creating a form and system of his own authorship. He has the name for it.

Lastly, do a search on this board beating up on Earl is a waste
of bandwidth and has been done a million times and no one
can dispute the validity of that statement.

Stay Happy, happy.

[jon]

Im no physicist and im sure someone else could do a *much* better job of explaining what im about to attempt but ill have a go anyway.

When you push on an object the object effectively pushes back, if you are well grounded then the opposing force is dispersed though your body and back into the ground.
By jumping i would think that this force would actualy have an effect of throwing you back.
I would be willing to bet that if this strike was attempted on a heavy bag by a light practioner it would have the effect of actualy sending the striker back with a nasty jolt.
Im not saying it would have no force but that the aftershock would not be well controlled.

Still one thing i actualy like about Erle is his commitment to promoting Taijiquan as a combat system.

[bob10]

I'm not sure about the physics of it. I have seen video stuff of Elre on the bag, though I can't remember if he was "off gournd" or not.

In systema we do one drill with the pads that involves a kind of "jumping" hit and you can get quite a lot of power out of it. It doens't use a waist shake though, more the body weight combined with a heavy slap.

I agree with Bai He, EM would have been better promoting his onw system rather than trying to compete with the other schools for lineage, history, etc. Face it , no-one is going to compete with the Chens as far as that goes, regardless of what anyone is teaching. The Yangs are a little different as the lineage is more fragmented, but the principle remains. Trying to crowbar a way into the line, whether the history is true or not, was bound to lead to problems.

As for the "classical" fa jing I've seen, I've yet to be convinced of its practicality.

[patriot]

The cardinal sin of Tai Chi is double-weightedness. Hence what EM is showing is not Tai Chi as defined by the classics.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by bob10


Would that also include the jumping movements in taiji forms?

No. Because when you jump, your purpose is to jump. When you punch, you use strenght of earth. You are being sacarstic right?

[RAF]

I think that if one cannot criticize EM (or any teacher) without crossing hands then it seems one should not defend EM (or any teacher) unless they have crossed hands. But thats not the whole story.

The more important question is how do you train for effective fajing expression and usage. I know that this does not simply happen from playing a form or pushing hands and this is true for all of the major taji systems. The real proof is to put out how you trained to reach the level.

There are specific auxilliary exercises and breath work (qi gong/nei gong if you wish) that must also be trained. That is where I think judgements can be made without crossing hands. If they never show this (anyone, not just EM) then I have doubts about what they are doing.

The EM argument has been going on for years and years and will never be resolved. I mean, who is going to admit after being with any teacher (or an EM student) for any length of time that, "oh they are a fraud and all the years and money I put in were wrong and a waste!" People have a vested interest in defending their teacher and their material and I can really understand that.

What if you could show that EM was a complete fraud. How would it improve your martial arts training or what you practice?

Ultimately "let the buyer beware!" Maybe thats part of the long run learning experience because censorship doesn't work.

I think honest training articles, some reference to the source of the training, and a more accurate martial arts history will help buyers make better choices. None of these is perfect answer or solution but we live in an imperfect world.

But, hey, this is only one opinion among many and we all know the analogy of opinions and, well, you know.

[bob10]

Well not really, because the forms contain jumping kicks. I'm presuming they are fa-jing kicks, or do they use another mechanism?

Can't remember off-hand if there are jumping strikes too - anyone else?

[bob10]

I think you make a good point RAF - without personal experience who can give a balanced judgement? And even then there are other factors to take into account.

I'm not one to blow EM's trumpet by any means, what bothers me with these discussions are the "you've never seen REAL fa-jing" brigade.

Go and see as many people as you can and then make up your mind. I don't think anyone has the monopoly on "real" taiji and even the hallowed Classics are open to interpretation.

Then again, at the end of the day I don't study it any more so what would I know ;)

[patriot]

Mike Tyson can throw a much more powerful punch than EM. Does that make him a good Tai Chi Master?

[Vapour]

RAF made good point. I should stop flaming so I deleted my comment. My comment was something to do with Internet debate all about mouth Gong Fu and I've seem much better faing. :)

[RAF]

Actually I don't thinkI meant it the way you took it.

Crossing hands is not the only criteria for evaluating someone's taiji knowledge or power.

As I thought it over, censorship or fear of stating your opinion may be worse than a flame (I don't recall what you posted).

My primary concern with many teachers is they often do not reveal their hand and may even disguise it to throw people off the track. That is why I am hesitant to conclude too much without seeing the full package.

I honestly have seen a few really skilled martial artists do a poor public demonstration only to reveal what they know and can do behind closed doors. I have heard of a couple of really top notch taji masters doing this and it doesn't surpise me.

My understanding of fajing is quite different than what EM reveals on and in his demonstration. However, I am not going to pull the trigger so fast because maybe he has material he may not show the public on how to train for effective fajing. There are many trails to get to the top of a given mountain.

Recently, for the first time, I saw he has spear training and wonder how he incorporates this into his taiji training. He may know more than meets the eye or he may not.

For example, I can look at what I know regarding my spear training, take a look at what Chen Zhenglei writes in this issue of Tai Chi Magazine (Using the Pole to Integrate the Body), look at what Wang Pei Sheng's student wrote in the Internal Arts Magazine about spear training, and look at Gerald Sharps Tai Chi Magazine piece on Cultivating Jin with Tai Chi Spear and then get a pretty good idea of where EM or someone who claims they know how to develop fajing expression and/or power in their training stands. So crossing hands isn't the only way to understand a person's taiji or fajing or whatever.

For me, a lot is revealed in the basic training that a teacher advocates. But I do ask myself why I have been so concerned over what others claim to have and my answer is always a question, "How does their claim or fame affect your (meaning mine) martial arts?"

Its when you find a basis to remove all self-doubt of your art/teacher that you can find room to let others simply be.

They can claim anything they want up until the point I decide to learn from them. Then I will question, in detail and depth, what they have, where it came from, and how useful it is.


Please don't stop flaming or offering your opinion/analysis based on anything I have said. Seriously, who is anyone to decide how the forum discourse should be regulated.

[BAI HE]

Level headed and fair post RAF, as usual.

I think when Earl posts things like the information
on his Bagwa videos, he really opens himself
up to criticism:

http://www.taijiworld.com/Videos/bagwa.htm

I agree with about 10% of anything said on that page.

[Vapour]

O.K. in that case here is my response.

Please criticise my content of explanation rather than context of internet debate. If you perticipate in this forum everyone is practicing Mouth GongFu from one's chair. Only way to reveal whether someone is talking out from his/her arse is when someone only rant about context rather content.

If you found my explanation too long, here is very short version.

"Staying rooted on the ground is the main source of power"

And here is a quote from classic.

"The root is in the feet;
Discharging is done by the legs,
The controlling power is in the waist,
And the appearance is in the hand and fingers."

So, please explain to me why jumping is acceptable in faijng punch despite its obvious loss of root. I personally have never seen taijiquan form which include jumping punch.

[bob10]

Originally posted by patriot
Mike Tyson can throw a much more powerful punch than EM. Does that make him a good Tai Chi Master?

No, it makes him a good boxer. And if he can punch harder than a good tai chi master does that mean we should study boxing instead?

[Ether]

Im very, very wary of any sifu who claims to be able to teach more than one martial art. I personaly would never visit such a teacher.

My own belief is that it is possible to be competent and even highly skilled in two, maybe even three martial arts but that this does not mean you are able to teach them. For me a teacher should be constantly appraising and refining the art he is teaching to ensure that he understands it better each day. How can you do this if you are practising, teaching or even learning another art?

My sifu was a fourth dan in korean karate before even starting Tai-Chi. He still practises his karate but would not dream of teaching it.

I think Mr Montague has too many techniques, too many 'principles' and FAR too many buzz-words rattling around inside his head.

Of course, I couldnt really say unless I got to push with him :D

[bob10]

Each new form or training drill more deadly than the last.....

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

FaJing? No, it's a video clip of Earle.. FaJing is an explosive expression of energy through a properly aligned and conditioned (trained) body.. My own understanding and training suggests that we compromise our frame and power base when we break connectivity with the ground.. while treading water where your feet can't reach the bottom, try to walk.. Exactly, you go no where.. without a connection to the ground simple physics tells us that the equal and opposite reaction theory will negate much of the power.. FaJing is transferring "earth energy" through our bodies to a target.. Leaving the ground while punching is most often associated with lack of control.. One of my students suggested trying to hit the heavy while wearing skates, i tried it with my son's skateboard... enlightening! Many of the traditional aerial techniques were developed to take a person off a horse, usually kicks.

Is Earle expressing FaJing? who cares? The real question for me is what am "i" doing? I know what it's like to feel someone express FaJing.. i have had limited success myself and for me consistency is the most difficult issue.. I feel better and it's more beneficial to criticize myself rather than others..

Be well...

[Vapour]

Originally posted by bob10


No, it makes him a good boxer. And if he can punch harder than a good tai chi master does that mean we should study boxing instead?

I tend to disagree. It's matter of whether what degree his punch adhere to principles. At the level of boxing he compete, you simply cannot punch with mere blute strength nor generate punch without root.

Here is a related thread.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21519