Aikido Effectiveness

[pseudoswitch]

Hi All,

There have been many heated discussions over the years regarding the street effectivness of Aikido. I have never practiced Aikido, but have had a long time interest in it as an artform. One of the most effective interpretations (IMHO) of the art i have seen is shihan steven seagal's. Check out the clip below for a montage of footage from shihan seagal's younger years, teaching at the tenshin dojo in osaka, japan:

http://195.82.120.86/images/New%20Mpegs/closeclip.mpg

What are some of your views on this somewhat 'hard' style of Aikido? And does Aikido integrate well with other 'evasive' arts?

Cheers,

pseudo

[Vapour]

As far as self defence are concerned, aikido has spot on tactics. Lot of training are allocated to defence against weapons and multiple attack. If you attacked on street, evasion is the correct strategy, IMO.

The problem is that it is coupled with the founder's idea of spirituality which many people go "????...WTF?". Plus this tend to attract lot of new age element who aren't interested in martial arts per se.

[Samurai Jack]

I currently weigh about 225 hard, weight trained pounds. I hold a second degree black belt in Kung fu San Soo. I enjoyed a short lived, but undeafeated amateur boxing carreer, and wrestled throughout high school.

My Aikido Sensei is almost twice my age, weighs around 150 lbs., and can kick my a$$ without spilling his tea. He has asked me to attack him with everything I've got twice now, and I have. Both times I've ended up dazed, shouting for mercy, and sore for a week.

When I reach his age and can easily do that to an experienced fighter who outweighs me by seventy five pounds, that'll be good enough for me!

[pseudoswitch]

Thanks for your post Samurai Jack. I keep hearing the same kind of things from experienced fighters who spar with aikido sensei. I've definately got a healthy respect for the art even if i have never studied it. I would definately like to at some point, but i would like to study a very practical, hard style of aikido.

Which style/s of aikido are generally thought of as being the hardest? I assume all interpretations of aikido can be applied in a destructive fashion (neglecting important principles of aikido), but which styles place emphasis on hard technique?

When you sparred with your sensei, did you use boxing? Did you attempt to grapple???

Thanks,

pseudo

[Samurai Jack]

I train with a dojo through the United States Aikido Federation Western Region. The Shihan for the west Coast is Chiba Sensei, a man with a reputation as the roughest Aikido teacher in the U.S. Supposedly when he taught in the former U.S.S.R. as a young man he would routinely have "accidents" with his students wich resulted in broken arms and such. He has since toned things down a bit, but as far as practical is concerned, he's the man.

You are fortunate to be living in London as we have a branch in the U.K. which has it's own Shihan who trained with Chiba Sensei. You will recognize our lineage dojo as they tend to go by the name "Aikikai", as in Eugene Aikikai, San Diego Aikikai etc. You might want to look up something under London Aikikai or the like. Good luck with your search.

Oh, and as far as "sparring" is concerned (hard for me to call it sparring when it's such a one sided affair), I threw a couple of punches the first time, tried to get him into a Chin Na wristlock/choke combination the second time. Basically, I just tried to hurt him, and failed miserably. :D He always had me before I realized that I was being countered.

[Vapour]

There are four major style of aikido, Yoshinkan, Aikikai, Tomiki and Ki (Shin Shin Touitu). Among these, Aikikai is not really a style but more of an umbrella organization for different styles.

Among all these styles Yoshinkan is defintely the hardest. However, there are few aikidoka in aikikai who practice hard style, one of the most famous one being Abe who brought aikido into Britain.

To be honest, best thing is to pick instructor rather than style. For example, Ki aikido, the softest style of aikido, is said to produce the best and the wrost aikidoka.

[Samurai Jack]

Well it just goes to prove your point vapour about choosing a teacher and not a style. I would say that your observations concerning Ki Aikido would be dead on, but over here in California, Oregon and Washington, Aikikai is considered the rabid wolf among Aikido circles...

[Vapour]

Problem with British aikido in U.K. is that there are so many independnts organizations. This, IMO, is to do with it history. Legendary Abe Sensei, who introduced aikido to Britain, taught harder style of aikido. However, his only successor, Sensei William switched to Ki aikido after Tohei sensei left aikikai. His older student stayed in Aikikai while his newer student moved to set up Ki aikido organization. Then to complicate matter, Sensei William left Shin-Shin Touitu aikido and set up his own organization. Since there were no single charismatic figure to hold aikido organization together, British aikido has unusually large number of independent organizations.

In my view, it is not so good thing. Friend of mine from dojo went to attend large seminar for all aikido styles in America. He said that in America, there is genuine atmosphere of "Hmmmm, you are different style from us. Show me your style, I want to lear" kind of positive attitude. In Britain, it's more like "hmmm, you study different style, you can't be better than us".

The worst incident of this is so called "British Aikido Board Controversy". Do google search, it is rather embarrasing.

[Former castleva]

Actually pseudoswitch sir,it sounds like you might want to do aikijujutsu (daito-ryu being closest by relation)

[pseudoswitch]

Hi Castleva,

I'm not aware of any daito ryu aiki jujutsu schools in the UK at all. My understanding is that they are mostly in Japan, with a few others worldwide. If you know of any in the UK please let me know :)

[Former castleva]

Your understanding may not be too far away from truth unfortunately,but I think hope should not be lost.
I think there even may be a school for this art around here so I would not be too surprised if they would have some in UK.
I do not know of those schools but I´m sure some searching or asking around will do it for you.

[Vapour]

Here is a link which would probably help.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5559

[SevenStar]

aiki kai, huh? There's an aiki kai school here. I've never trained there, but two of the guys in bjj have, and they only had good things to say about him.

[ArrowFists]

SomeAikido is very practical, and straight forward, while other forms of Aikido border on spiritual nonsense.

I'd also go for the more practical, straight-forward schools if I were you.

I've been fortunate enough to have been exposed to Aikidoka who are not only very skilled, but fully willing to share their knowledge and skill with "disbelievers".

I really don't get the stories about people who say they walk into Aikido dojos and see people get tossed around without being touched. That has never occured in any dojo I've visited, and if you ever had any question about someone getting thrown around, you were more than welcome to experience the throw yourself at your own peril.

I guess I've just been lucky, but from the Aikidoka I've trained with, I'd definitely say that Aikido is an effective, and beautiful form of self-defense.

[Internal Boxer]

Samuri Jack wrote. The Shihan for the west Coast is Chiba Sensei, a man with a reputation as the roughest Aikido teacher in the U.S. Supposedly when he taught in the former U.S.S.R. as a young man he would routinely have "accidents" with his students wich resulted in broken arms and such. He has since toned things down a bit, but as far as practical is concerned, he's the man.

Just cause he breaks students arms does not mean he is skilled or remotely able to defend himself, he could be a bully with an inferiority comlex, who abuses his standing as teacher and hurts students to prove a point, or he maybe be skilled able to defend himself, my point is the damage to students has no refelection on skilled Akido.

[Former castleva]

"Just cause he breaks students arms does not mean he is skilled or remotely able to defend himself, he could be a bully with an inferiority comlex, who abuses his standing as teacher and hurts students to prove a point, or he maybe be skilled able to defend himself, my point is the damage to students has no refelection on skilled Akido."
A good point.I´m in no position to question his attributes but I think I have also heard of a randori/test demo where a small group of practitioners ended up disabled (unconcious,unable to speak...)
Debate on aikido´s nature aside,this kind of thing is something you do not expect to happen in aikido where practice should always be carried out in "joyful atmosphere" or related,as O´Sensei did put it.

[Ether]

It comes down to trust, doesnt it? If I lend a teacher my body for a demonstration I expect him to look after me. I tell you this, if any training partner (Junior or Senior) INTENTIONALLY damaged me during practise he would regret it.

There is no excuse for that kind of thing. None.

also, yes Aikido is very effective when used by someone with developed skill.

[Samurai Jack]

It wasn't demonstration. The story goes thus:

Chiba Sensei had been invited to the U.S.S.R. to train a group of Russian Police officers for six months. The many of the men had backgrounds in wrestling, Sambo, and military hand to hand.

After a few days of basic Ukemi and "turning" practice a few of the cops decided Sensei wasn't the real deal. None of them had ever been exposed to an art like Aikido, so they were naturally sceptical of Chiba Sensei's ability.

Sensei told the sceptics that he would not demonstrate any hard techniques until the students could physically handle them. The cops, of course, were in great shape having gone through grueling "boot camp" training and so on, so they took this to be a sign of cowardice.

Understandably, the sceptics were frustrated that they were under orders to study with a fraud for six months. Classroom order began to collapse as students began to heckle their teacher and challenge him at every turn. Sensei was under contract with the Russian government, so refusal to teach could've carried a pretty stiff penalty.

One night during class, three of the students decided to jump Chiba Sensei. They attacked him en-mass with no restraint whatsoever. Chiba Sensei responded in kind. In the end, his nose was broken as were one of his student's arms.

While it is true that no one here would find it acceptable to have a teacher intentionally hurt a student, I must say in Chiba's defense that I was told that he was quite ashamed of the way things turned out. He was a young, inexperienced san dan and accustomed to being treated much differently by students.

[pseudoswitch]

Who got their nose broken??? One of the students or chiba sensei??

Seems strange that he let the situation deteriorate to that level. Maybe it was because he was a relativley inexperienced instuctor at that time as you say.

I think a very important quality in a teacher is the capacity to gauge the abilities and needs of his/her students, in essence being able to strike a balance between quality instruction and 'keeping 'em happy'. Martial arts instuctors who teach in the 'traditional' way always have a problem with this kind of stuff outside of their own cultures. It normally doesn't go as far as to result in a physical confrontation though :eek: , usually students just leave. I guess in this situation they couldn't.

Well at least the rest of the class got a good demo eh.

Regards,

[Internal Boxer]

Mmmm........Anecdotal evidence about as reliable as a chocolate fireguard!

[pseudoswitch]

As opposed to YOUR post you mean?

[Internal Boxer]

pseudoswitch

My reply was to SJ

You obviously have no idea what anecdotal means.

Having experience of what consitutes anecdotal evidence in court rooms and having to deal with litigation fairly regularly, any narrative ie. a story or a version of events recounted from an individual that is purely based on someone elses account and not their own, in other words retelling the story as was told to them, so they were not an eye witness is anecdotal evidence. So where in this post have I said anything anecdotal?? silly boy :rolleyes:

[Ether]

Originally posted by Samurai Jack
It wasn't demonstration. The story goes thus:



I actually had in mind other anecdotes :) about Chiba Sensei from when he was teaching at the Hombu Dojo. Anyone read 'Angry White Pyjamas'? Worth a read.

From the above story about the Russians, I too am surprised that he didnt hurt one of them sooner. Ive seen a certain well known Scottish Tai-Chi teacher deal pretty harshly with fairly inexperienced students on much less provocation.

Got anymore stories anyone :p

[pseudoswitch]

Originally posted by Internal Boxer
pseudoswitch

My reply was to SJ

You obviously have no idea what anecdotal means.

Hehe, actually i do. That wasn't my point sir. I was drawing attention to the usefullness of your post. It sounded like you were dismissing SJ's post. Not very nice. My apologies if i misunderstood.


Having experience of what consitutes anecdotal evidence in court rooms and having to deal with litigation fairly regularly, any narrative ie. a story or a version of events recounted from an individual that is purely based on someone elses account and not their own, in other words retelling the story as was told to them, so they were not an eye witness is anecdotal evidence.

Oh well done, very good definition.


So where in this post have I said anything anecdotal?? silly boy :rolleyes:

Hehe :p That's not very nice, i didn't call you names did i? You must learn to control your temper :D

[StickyHands]

I just have one simple question, if the opponent has a split-second, lightning fast punch, fast as a boxer or a faster, how is it than an Aikidoka should see it coming as well as have enough focus to block the attack or evade it and then apply the signature execution? Thanks.

[Samurai Jack]

It is simple grasshopper. When faced with an overwhelming, "split second, lightning fast punch, fast as a boxer, or faster", the Aikidoka must respond with a split second, lightning fast counter, as fast as a boxer or faster.

Here is another question which is certainly fasitious, but no less relavent. How does a boxer respond to an Aikidoka with a split second lightning fast attack, that's sooooooo super duper fast, that he can't even see it coming, and even if he did that's O.K. 'cause the Aikidoka has a boxer proof forcefield on so the boxer is doomed and has no chance of survival, and is sure to die? What then?

[shaolin kungfu]

the boxer responds with death.

[StickyHands]

LOL. Can the taisabaki of human body move that fast? Anyways, is Aikido an external or internal art then?

[JKogas]

Only the basics work in real fights where the adrenaline flows and the fog of war looms. Aikido is NOT basic and is too overly complex to execute under such conditions.

The higher the skill level of the opponent, the MORE this rings true.

-John

[StickyHands]

Your point being?? lol

[Samurai Jack]

Jkogas,

I've been in real fights wherein I kept my head and was able to deal with the situation using my traing. The "fog of war" as you put it is only a hinderance if you try to fight the adrenaline rush and freeze up. For me, punching and such are not "basic" responses to an attacker anyway. Grabbing my opponent and throwing/locking them is. Whose to say which approach is best? For me, grappling works better than boxing ever did, and Aikido teaches you to grapple in a free style manner. I like it.

[greendragon]

Psuedo, maybe try Hapkido as it is known as the more brutal cousin of Aikido but coming from the same roots.
J, Aikido is not complex, the details we learn are complex, but in dynamic application we just use the basic principles, those that SHOULD be common to all martial arts. and we do not block, we blend. The lightning fast boxer punch? make him reach for you and over extend, after all, are we talking about fighting or 'sparring', there is a difference.
I would also add that I have never heard of any spiritualism being part of Aikido training.

[StickyHands]

Well how about both, sparring or a competition in one of those UFC-like tournament against a fast striker or a real fight against a street thug who lets say did have good background in MA (but this guy doesn't care if he kills you, no rules). What would you say, is Aikido more effective to street defense or Aikijutsu? Since Ive read in many places, the common Aikido's mindset is to bring the opponet down without causing him too much injury, if none at all (which might be why it's so complex). Where as Aiki-jutsu, precursor to Aikido, is quite aggressive (direct and easier to execute), and is not prone to care what happens to the opponent, as long as he's down. Having said that, when you're defending against multiple opponets, would u care not to harm them like Aikidoka, or would u care to break their bones so they dont get up again and attack you all at once?

[Becca]

Originally posted by pseudoswitch
I'm not aware of any daito ryu aiki jujutsu schools in the UK at all. My understanding is that they are mostly in Japan, with a few others worldwide. If you know of any in the UK please let me know :)

It might be easier if you were to search out an idividual instructor. IMHO the best ones don't always affiliate with large schools. They tend to take a handfull (less than 10) of students on at one time, then keep them together in a "core" group. It doesn't matter if one or two are spooky good or one is way slower in learning, they all learn the same thing at once. Then the master will cycle through again and again untill they all have the physical aspects. The spiritual is worked in as part of the kata, if the instructor chooses to include it. Many don't, and most of the ones I know of don't put much enfesis on it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Samuri Jack

I would say that your observations concerning Ki Aikido would be dead on, but over here in California, Oregon and Washington, Aikikai is considered the rabid wolf among Aikido circles...
:mad: It is not a rabid wolf!

[Samurai Jack]

:confused:

What? You don't like my metaphore? Too violent? Personally I like the image of a rabid wolf...

Or did you take exception to my comment because you disagree that aikido is effective as self defense?

Anyway, what I meant was that the Aikikai organization here on the west coast is known to carry a self defense, rather than spiritual foo-foo mind set into it's training philosophy.

Either way your entitled to your opinion. Let's say that the west coast Aikikai is known as the kick a$$ godzilla in a world full of cardboard Tokyo's then. That's my opinion.

:D

[Becca]

Ooops!:(
Sorry, thought you were dissing it. I agree, it is more of a self defence style. My instructor touched on the spirituality side, but it came across to me like he didn't have much use for it. Probably why he broke off from the main stream and changed the name to Ninjitsu Kai.

[KKD]

I've been studying Ba-gua for many a years now (23) and all I've got to say is my teacher has said that Aikido was Aiki-Jutsu that O-Sensei combined with Ba-gua footwork from when he was in China. Remember, he couldn't say that the 'circle dancing' he witnessed, helped him develop his system, now could he?

As for the Ki style of Aikido, I've heard it that O-Sensei developed one system, but as his meditations and techniques taught him to be more internalized (smaller movements - until almost invisible) his system changed with him. So the later 'teachings' were more along the lines of internalized movements and more in tune with the 'peace' aspects.

This has happened to alot of systems (Wing-chun even - Look at traditional Wing chun and Wing Tsun... Very similar, but a slightly different emphasis, DEPENDING ON THE SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT of the master at the time of teaching).

As for the ba-gua link, it is most definitely there, since my boss started Aikido about 2 years ago, and almost ALL his basic footwork is right out of the ba-gua system.

My .02....

[Samurai Jack]

Yes, I've heard this argument before, and also have seen zero facts to back it up. Not that there's anything wrong with an Aikido/Ba gua connection, I just don't think it's probable.

The Jodo and iaido I've seen both use the same footwork as Aikido. I hear that Yarijutsu (japanese spearmanship) also features a toe out style of footwork. Are we meant to believe that they are also based on Ba Gua?

O-Sensei always told his students that Aikido came from Daito Ryu Aikijutsu, kenjutsu, and yarijutsu. Being that these styles all share similar features, why do we need to make assumptions about Aikido's origins?

Maybe people think linking Ba Gua with Aikido validates a style that the American public may be unfamiliar with. In that case, better to say that karate or western boxing comes from Ba Gua!

[Ultimatewingchun]

Samurai Jack:

Much earlier on this thread you mentioned what happened when you attacked your much older aikido instructor with all of your boxing, wrestling, and karate skills - he just trounced you....

My question is whether or not you attacked with all out PENETRATION type moves or were you more cautious in the use of your energy, motion, balance, etc...(ie.- did you throw all out haymakers, all out lungesin an attempt to grab and take down, all out high speed kicks... or what?).

[Samurai Jack]

We played around for a bit. I was most impressed when I threw a feint to his face in the form of a jab. Before I had a chance to blink, much less throw a right cross, my face was being ground into the mat and my arm was twisted behind my back in a move I now know to be Nikyo. It hurt and I was surprised since my jab is the fastest and least committed punch I can throw. I thought, "What if this mat had been concrete?". I was hooked. I also stopped messing with Sensei!

[Samurai Jack]

Sifu, I re-read your post and realize that I may not have answered your question. I did not throw any hay makers, and I'm not a kicker...

I cringe to think what would've happened to me if I did. You see, in aikido, we LIKE for our opponent to over commit to an attack, hell we LIKE it in boxing too! A haymaker tends to be pretty slow for most fighters, which is why we like to set-up such powerfull movements with quicker ones like jabs, crosses and hooks.

My old coach used to yell at us when we did that kind of thing. It's just not good boxing, and only works as an opening move against an inexperienced/drunk/blind fighter.

[shaun]

hey guys, i used to take aikido for awhile, but then i stopped because i thought it was impractical.

from my point of view, aikido is very god against non trained people, who strike with their whole bodyweight. if you notice from the stevan seagal clip at the start of this thread, all the attackers appear to be running and attacking into seagal.

however, i am wondering as to whether it is effective against trained martial artists who strike with hip and arm, and not run into the guy. because i belive that aikido is very dependent on the guys momentum due to body weight.

do you guys agree or disagree?

i would really enjoy comments on its effectiveness on trained martial artists..

thanks
shaun

[Becca]

however, i am wondering as to whether it is effective against trained martial artists who strike with hip and arm, and not run into the guy. because i belive that aikido is very dependent on the guys momentum due to body weight.

It's very effective if you train in it utill you are very fluid. Striking with the "hip and arm" is momentum. And Aikido does work better with lots of it, but only if you are prepared to use it. It can be very... hard... on your opponant's body, and you can't half-a$$ it. You can't pull a technique. Once you commit to it, you must go through with it, even if it means dislocating something.

[xinyiliuhe]

Hi,

Does anyone know of any Aikido or Japanese Martial Arts teachers of any worth that live in Taiwan?

thanks,

Hussein

--
Ustaz Al-Mubarazaad
Silat Mubai and Silat Zulfikari
www.mubai.cc

[sweaty_dog]

Aikido is very effective if you are good at it. It is probably one of the most underrated styles for defending against weapons (I think so, anyway). Unfortunately not many people are good at it.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Vapour
As far as self defence are concerned, aikido has spot on tactics. Lot of training are allocated to defence against weapons and multiple attack. If you attacked on street, evasion is the correct strategy, IMO.

The problem is that it is coupled with the founder's idea of spirituality which many people go "????...WTF?". Plus this tend to attract lot of new age element who aren't interested in martial arts per se.

don't have time to readthe whole thread but have practiced some aikido off-on for several yrs....some of it is redunant when in contrast with ither styles, but some of it, I'd never trade...founders ideas??...wobudong...I don't understand and further don't care.......gotta love the rolls and some takedowns and holds are supreme

[william]

I went to an aikido class for 5 lessons, but then quit.

I know I didn't stick at it, but it appeared to me that most of the techniques, even the ones I saw the black belts do relied on the attacker momentarily keeping his arm out, and attackers grabbing wrists (which I cant imagine attactually happening) and being able to catch punches! Also It appeared that it would take too long before you would be able to pull off any of the techniques effectively.

So I got my self to a kung fu class quick smart!

also you know in all the clips, I swear it would not look half as good if the people they were doing it to were not black belts themselves all this flying somersalts stuff, that just wouldn't happen unless you were taught to fall would it?

Final off-putting point, the main sensi was a 4 10ft woman, supposed to work on anysize isn't it?Well she dicided to demonstrate on a 6ft kick boxer, as if to prove a point, well, in my eyes it didn't seem to work that well, I think she had been doing it for about 6/7 years? I figured that 6 or seven years would be better spent at a kung fu club.

Just thoughts,

cheers

W.

[Becca]

Some styles, both Chinese and Japanese, don't practice at "full speed" as a rule. This doesn't meen it doesn't work. Nore does it meen that it will always work, especially if you never do speed it up while practicing.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by william
I went to an aikido class for 5 lessons, but then quit.
Also It appeared that it would take too long before you would be able to pull off any of the techniques effectively.

.

that's not neccissarily true...I taught my 10 yr old daughter some aikido techs and I consider her adept ( in what I taught her) in only several months ...you should see the rolls and throws on this kid....maybe she was just a born natural, or it could be because she's been my little training partner since she was 2, but I'm fairly sure that your statement is a bad call..........some stuff just looks flashy and complicated but in reality is not so hard to learn

[freehand]

No, William is right. Many dojos are ineffective. The purpose of aikido was spiritual transformation, not combat effectiveness. O Sensei was a master of daito-ryu aikijitsu and other combat arts, but he got religion in middle life and became the bodyguard for a cult founder. O Sensei then removed many of the more viscious techniques - not necessary for teaching enlightenment, he thought. Me, I'm of the opinion that a dead student will never reach enlightenment. I have studied Kung Fu San Soo, jujitsu, Chen Taiji, Kali, and aikido. Master of none :(

Some aikido dojos are too new age "let's not act mean" in atmosphere. I trained at one for a while where I and a former jujitsu student threw most of the punches because the other students didn't know how to strike. Some one mentioned touchless throws - they exist, but they are much easier if the student is *very cooperative...

But there are powerful, street effective teachers too. I find that aikido complements my San Soo and Kali nicely. Now if I can just stay young another 50 years and train hard again...

Check out the nearest dojo. If one doesn't look good, try another. The worst that will happen is that you will visit all the aikido schools in your area.

Freehand

[Becca]

Sorry, I just found something that caught my eye...


also you know in all the clips, I swear it would not look half as good if the people they were doing it to were not black belts themselves all this flying somersalts stuff, that just wouldn't happen unless you were taught to fall would it?

Every style I know of that does more than box does teach it. How did you study 3 years of Chinese Martial arts without learning how to fall?!? My first lesson in it was my first session in the intermediate class.

[blooming lotus]

of course...learning to fall is a basic skill and you can learn in it anywhere......like 8Th grade drama class for instance....or at any good local dojo........