More info on Kung Fu in the Olympics

[Taomonkey]

well anyone know about this?

[Sho]

Wushu?

[taijiquan_student]

take a guess...

[rogue]

Wushu? God bless you. And next time cover your mouth.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by rogue
God bless you. And next time cover your mouth.

Yes, that is how SARS became a problem :D

[Starchaser107]

is San Shou going to be in it as well or is it just wushu forms and taichi. i watched the promo video @ wushucentral and i didn't see any sanshou in it , Does anyone know?

[GLW]

What was proposed was Taolu competition using the 10 Compulsory routines and Sanshou. However, for Taolu, the routines were split with Men and women having some the same and some were only male events and others female. Also, 42 Taijiquan and 42 Taijijian were excluded.

The IOC did NOT accept Wushu as an event. They also passed a ruling capping the number of events and removing some events.

As it sits now, in order for Wushu to become an event, two things have to happen. First, there has to be another event removed. Second, the IOC has to say that Wushu will be the new event to slide into the vacancy left by that event.

All of this has to happen before 2008. Normally, the hosting country can sponsor an event. China was to do this with Wushu. If there is no vacancy, it is a loss of face to China.

But weirder stuff has happened. The IWuF is set to be the body that falls into place for the IOC for Wushu. However, the IWuF has a lot of problems with controlling all of the training, judge certification, and a number of the IWuF recognized organization throughout the world are wrought with politics, corruption, and financial problems...not to mention lack of shear numbers for Wushu to get in.

[joedoe]

I thought the host nation was allowed to showcase a demonstration sport that may or may not be considered as a permanent sport in future games.

[Brad]

Maybe it's for the best that it doesn't get in. I know I wasn't the least bit excited about the proposed competition format.


Also, 42 Taijiquan and 42 Taijijian were excluded.
I thought 42 Taijiquan was going to at least be a womens event?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Brad
Maybe it's for the best that it doesn't get in. I know I wasn't the least bit excited about the proposed competition format.


I thought 42 Taijiquan was going to at least be a womens event?

I agree - I was kinda dreading the embarrassment of watching all those people dancing around in their silk pyjamas. No doubt they are great athletes, but they project the wrong image of TCMAs.

[Laughing Cow]

I know that the IOC at the moment is reviewing quiet a bit of sports in the Olympics.

Apparentky there are already too many events for the 2 week time-slot.

Wushu might get a chance at the Olyumpics like Korfball did.

Cheers.

[joedoe]

I reckon crap like synchronised swimming and equestrian should be dropped.

[Kristoffer]

Modern Wushu shouldn't become an olympic event. I think Sanshou is better off. When I were younger I always wanted Muay Thai to be in the Olympics :)

[GLW]

you need something that stands out.

You already have judo and boxing. To most people, Sanshou is just too similar. It will have a hard time developing a following unless the fighters have skills that meet or exceed those of their boxing counterparts.

Taolu - form - there is nothing outside of rythmic gymnastics that comes close to it. It has a potential of high appeal provided they do not bore people to death.

Limiting the competition to only the compulsories will tend to bore people.

In both cases, it is poorly thought out.

As for hurting Chinese styles....it is advertising. It would be good for Contemporary Wushu as well as Classical.

I love how people say it shouldn't be there, insult people about uniforms (as if a Gi was something to be proud of...not knowing that the Gi was essentally the Japanese equivalent of longjohns...), stating that it should be Classical styles....but then saying how Classical is NOT about competition and not even being able to agree upon how to judge them.

Sorry...open the mind a bit. There are as many reasons to practice as there are people. Live and let live...and realize when something may benefit you all - be directly or indirectly.

Simply put, the Olympics IS the big time.

[TzuChan]

Sanshou IMHO is waaaaay more fun to watch then Judo and Boxing. They should remove Judo and place Sanshou instead, I mean we all know belgium rulez the Judo scene right ;)

[GLW]

While Sanshou MAY indeed be more fun to watch...

The other sports are established and have a following. So, Sanshou would have to develop a following. In being covered, you will be lucky to see it at 3 AM. You have to search to find judo and it has been around a while.

Boxing has an amazing following. It feeds straight into professional boxing. So, there is big money and a big following. No such animal even on the horizon for Sanshou.

We all need to take a step out of our own secular views. Truth is that we all are a specific population with closer than not similar tastes. How close those tastes are to the mainstream...well, often not to close.

The folks to convince on anything are the IOC folks. They haven't said no...but they also left it in such a way that it will be very easy NOT to say yes.

[Sho]

Taolu will fit in better. They already have boxing and taekwondo. And why would they replace a Japanese art (judo) with a Chinese one? :rolleyes:

[Brad]

Should've gone with no holds barred pit fights... weapons allowed. Now THAT would be entertaiment ;) And instead of calling it wushu or sanshou... we could call it Chinese Death Boxing... :D


As for hurting Chinese styles....it is advertising. It would be good for Contemporary Wushu as well as Classical.
But with the format that was proposed, wouldn't that enforce a "this style is for girls, and this is for boys" view of wushu? I don't see how a compulsory only, devided up by the sexes event would benifit all of wushu. All I see for that kind of futute is schools teaching "Olympic" classes focusing on the Olympic competition requirements, and a severe lack of male competion in certain events, and a lack of female participation in other events.

[Guile]

If Wushu goes to the olymipcs, wont a lot of cma schools turn into taekwondo style and just try to pump out future "olympians" instead of focusing on traditional training and fighting?

[GLW]

Exactly so to all of those observations...but there ARE Classical schools and teachers that will split things and have the olympic stuff ...and then their close students who get the rest of the art.

Personally, I would have preferred seeing an ice skating type of format...

The compulsories used to qualify and then an indivdual barehand, long weapon, short weapon etc... where the competitor had to use either a Classical routine or one of their own devising...with required levels of difficulty and such.

With that, ALL of the competitors would look different and it would be interesting. Imagine, when you get to the individuals, you would see things like Preying Mantis, Ditang, White Ape, Eagle Claw, Cha quan, etc.... instead of 50 people ALL doing the SAME ROUTINE OVER AND OVER AGAIN ....

The split between men and women and the removal of the Internal Arts really ruins things. There ARE routines that are typically Male or typically Female. However, these should NOT be the compulsories.

[lkfmdc]

GLW is incorrect on a number of points, and his views I guess are typical of those in charge of the Chinese martial arts organizations in the US, which would explain why San Shou is always treated like the secret red headed step child hidden in the attic

San Shou is developed enogh that over 70 nations send teams to world championships

San Shou is the #2 watched TV show on the LARGEST TV NETWORK IN THE WORLD (CCTV).

San Shou has pro leagues now in China, UK, US, Holland, Russia and Brazil.

Funny you bring Judo into your argument, as you show the same bias. Judo is non-existant on the US horizon, but in MANY countries it gets prime time TV coverage and is a huge sport. With US TV executives trying constantly to only cater to the housewife and soccer mom, TV coverage does not feature combat sports in the US. But the rest of the world loves them

While the Chinese martial arts community is still in love with people in silk PJ's and tin foil weapons leaping about, the rest of the world finds it boring and embarassing. While China, the same nation selling us fake Shaolin monks, will and has pushed the contemporary forms nonsense, the reality is taht San Shou does have more mainstream appeal.

We just need to divorce ourselves from the current powers that be, and I think that is going to happen very soon

[Guile]

I read on Jet Li's site some time ago that everyone's form was a little different when he used to compete, they had their own distinct little differences

[GLW]

"San Shou is the #2 watched TV show on the LARGEST TV NETWORK IN THE WORLD (CCTV). "

Watched WHERE? CCTV is CHINA's TV. Big surprise. This is the same mistake the IWuF is making. You MUST appeal to as many countries as possible.

How many times do you see Sanshou on US TV, European anywhere, etc... To all but those involved in Chinese Martial Arts, it is simply another full contact thing and they take a Take it or Leave it attitude.

You MUST go for as broad of an appeal base as possible.

You also misinterpret the words said. I was giving you the probable reasoning behind the IOC's decision and how many people involved in other sports view it. Sanshou is relatively new and suffers from lack of exposure. We are talking LESS than 15 years from nothing to a try for the Olympics. I would say even getting on the list for consideration is doing well. Taolu has been around for a lot longer...and it is in the same boat.


"With US TV executives trying constantly to only cater to the housewife and soccer mom, TV coverage does not feature combat sports in the US. But the rest of the world loves them"

And does the rest of the world BUY it. The US and a few other countries make up a large portion of the paying economy of the world. If you want to get the exposure you have to get the bucks.

Look at Jackie Chan...arguably the biggest action star in the world... Yet he is going after the US audience....there is exposure and money there. Money makes it happen.

"While the Chinese martial arts community is still in love with people in silk PJ's and tin foil weapons leaping about, the rest of the world finds it boring and embarassing."

This is where you go off base. The Taolu people DO come and watch and support the Sanshou people and to be honest, I have NEVER heard the Taolu people run down or insult what the Sanshou folks do.

Here, you are a major proponent of Sanshou and you are insulting another part of the Chinese Martial Arts. It would be better if you chose to look for common gains than looking for insults. You can never push your sport up by tearing down another's.

Just as many of the Taolu competitors might not be able or want to do what you do, can YOU do what they do. Mutual respect is needed here.

Like it or not, the IWuF has married both Taolu and Sanshou. They are in one package. To tear one down will NOT get the other one in.

"While China, the same nation selling us fake Shaolin monks, will and has pushed the contemporary forms nonsense, the reality is taht San Shou does have more mainstream appeal."

I agree with the fake monk stuff and the money garbage. I also have no great love for the new set of compulsories. They are not all bad but there are big problems.

"We just need to divorce ourselves from the current powers that be, and I think that is going to happen very soon"

You need a country to sponsor it. You need others to hold events and national organizations. I would LOVE to see there be a more fair way of dealing with ALL of Wushu (Classical and Contemporary Taolu AND Sanshou). The way things get done dealing with the IWuF pretty much sucks. However, you do this by building bridges not by building walls.

[joedoe]

So the fact that people watch wushu then make the conclusion that TCMA is nothing more than dance does not hurt TCMA?

[lkfmdc]

CCTV is indeed China's TV. Funny how the same country that gave birth to the forms component of TCMA didn't also put it on TV. Why? Because even the people at CCTV realize that the forms stuff is boring to death. It isn't a coincidence that CCTV chose San Shou as programing over taolu.

Furthermore, ESPN has a long term contract with Strikeforce kickboxing, you know what strikeforce kickboxing is interested in getting more of? SAN SHOU. Sorry, but you do realize ESPN is US tv don't you? Soon, we will see more San Shou on US tv, because it is growing in popularity, UNLIKE Taolu.

K-1 is the largest kickboxing event in teh WORLD, and will be on DIRECT TV, ie US tv, know who is the feature of the show? CUNG LE, a SAN SHOU fighter.

How precisely does the silk PJ, tin foil taolu have broad appeal?

Again, let's return to Judo, you do realize that pro judo is a stable of French and Belgian TV don't you? No, you didn't? Or that it gets prime time TV on Korean networks? Combat sports, not forms, get world wide attention.

- "I have NEVER heard the Taolu people run down or insult what the Sanshou folks do" -

you don't get out much, do you? It's here on this very BBS pretty often.

That aside, let's talk about how the taolu dominated organizations treat San Shou. This year, NEITHER the USAWKF nor the US Wushu Union is going to offer san shou at their "nationals". US Wushu Union complains that it takes up too much space. Contemporary Wushu carpets take up space, why aren't they being also dropped?

Before you jump up with the lame excuse that there aren't enough San Shou athletes to merit competition, the last ABOC event had OVER 150 San Shou athletes. 150 multiplied by $60 and you'd think they could overcome some of the logistical problems and actually offer san shou competition.

Anyone who knows the history of San Shou in the US knows that the coaches and athletes have tried to be patient and cooperate with the powers that be. But patience has a rational limit. A certain organization handed over all the responsibility for San Shou to a single individual who as of late has been on an ego trip and wants to be a dictator or something. Unilateral decision making and telling people to take it or leave it isn't gonna cut it.

[StarBoy]

Here's a thought...

It's been a while since I've watched the Olympics (the last one I really followed was Atlanta). But when I watched they had a bunch of these really fruity events. They were some kind of gymnastics offshoot, except one involved twirling around a ribbon, another using a ball, one with a baton, another with a hula hoop type thing, etc. It was more like interpretive dance than any actual sport. If they cut all these out (which they really should :D ), then they'd have plenty of room for a few Wushu events.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by StarBoy
Here's a thought...

It's been a while since I've watched the Olympics (the last one I really followed was Atlanta). But when I watched they had a bunch of these really fruity events. They were some kind of gymnastics offshoot, except one involved twirling around a ribbon, another using a ball, one with a baton, another with a hula hoop type thing, etc. It was more like interpretive dance than any actual sport. If they cut all these out (which they really should :D ), then they'd have plenty of room for a few Wushu events.

That's rhythmic gymnastics. It is a discipline within gymnastics. Takes a fair bit of skill. Better than equestrain if you ask me.

[GLW]

"That aside, let's talk about how the taolu dominated organizations treat San Shou. This year, NEITHER the USAWKF nor the US Wushu Union is going to offer san shou at their "nationals". US Wushu Union complains that it takes up too much space. Contemporary Wushu carpets take up space, why aren't they being also dropped? "

First off, the REVENUE brought in by the Sanshou events IS Small.

That does NOT excues them from neglecting the event.

However, the Insurance costs are substantial for covering Sanshou. Then there is the expense of the medical crew, a doctor to do the exams and weigh in. Then you have to have the Lei Tai and set it up...to do it right is no small feat. The amount of competition space required goes up quite a bit. The Lei tai is NOT easily moved so you lose that space for the entire event.

Now add to that the fact that virtually NONE of the Sanshou folks show up to help put things up. Been there and worked on it. In several events, the Sanshou folks that were officials were NOT working to set up things while folks that were with the Taolu side were...with NO THANKS at all. But of course that is forgotten.

Or how about when officials from other areas have to be pulled in to help with weigh ins and prep...instead of getting a break or dinner. Orlando...been there done that... All to have a "Hi, how's it going " at the airport met with a nose in the air ...sort of leaves a bad taste in the mouth...

And then, when the organization work is needed, you gt some volunteers but one or twoSanshou folks end up driving some others away...and the community is too small to handle that.

There are legal problems too... EVERY Baltimore Sanshou bout was technically illegal because the boxing cmmission must sanction such things there....so...1995 World Games...no head contact. Illegal now in New York.

And then folks go to sites like the USWU and make statements like:

"While I realize that it is in fashion to call the US Wushu Union as a completely new organization, a lot of us still think and connect you to the "USA WKF board" and that group's second event in San Diego also dropped San Shou.

That aside, I take it from the response that indeed, there is no San Shou at this event. I am sure you have reasons, but the end result is that you have abandoned a segment of the community. I thought you were supposed to represent all of us? "

BEFORE the USWU has stated WHAT the status of Sanshou will be. Should that discussion not be attempted offline first instead of in a very public forum. Where is the benefit of a doubt.

Then there is the WRONG statement about the USWU being the same as the USAWKF...the only folks that held official office with USAWKF are Jeff bolt and Nick Gracenin and they are advisors and NOT doing that much on the promotional side. Not to mention that Jeff Bolt is tied up with other concerns internationally so his role is MUCH less...

And after sitting in several meetings where the Sanshou people came in with a noticeable chip on their shoulder and displayed it against people who came to HELP in ALL of the areas...(San Diego meeting in 2000 comes to mind where htye were less than polite and then pulled out of any work within less than 6 weeks)


Anyway, the idea is that :

Sanshou has extra costs.
The folks are not helping.
There is bad blood going on and it is on both sides
Bridges are being burned by words and deeds on BOTH sides

I HAVE heard derogatory remarks from both sides...but MORE from the Sanshou side. AND>>>>I actually DEFEND the Sanshou side and call the insulter down when it occurs...

Again, bridges are needed and you wish to build walls.




"150 multiplied by $60 "

How much does the Lei Tai cost and the extra space?

A doctor...if you can't get a volunteer...2 day event...8 hours each day, 16 hours at easily $60 per hour. Ambulance...cost a bit. Rooms for the officials ...$100 per day for 2 judge minimum. You need at least 3 or 4.

ANd you assume ALL of the 150 show up.

The Sanshou community has to agree to truly show up and support an event ...so it is a catch 22. If you schedule it and then get no response...you either lose money or cancel....you canel and you anger folks...



"Anyone who knows the history of San Shou in the US knows that the coaches and athletes have tried to be patient and cooperate with the powers that be. "

True to some degree...but also NOT true...since the time to be complaining was BEFORE the rift in 1999. The situation has NOT improved but the politics has worsened. It is more splintered now and the same stuff is happening.

Now, if you truly don't like the deal, why not take your Sanshou organization, approach the event organizers and use their date and schedule it and run it all yourselves. I KNOW the USWU would not have a big deal with that. Goh may..but deal with him your own way.

Or...barring that, get it organized and foot the bill and do it all yourselves.

The real choice is to either step up and become an active part of the entire community or to separate and do it all yourselves.

Neither is easy...but those are the two choices.

[lkfmdc]

Let's attack your statements point by point, as there is a lot here that either you are missing or, whatever....

- "First off, the REVENUE brought in by the Sanshou events IS Small." -

ABOC treated San Shou with some respect and actively recruited us, unlike the USAWKF and US Wushu Union. ABOC has over 150 San Shou athletes. Please don't tell us that $9,000 is small revenue.

And even if it was, it is no excuse not to offer a competition when you CLAIM to represent the entire community.

- "However, the Insurance costs are substantial for covering Sanshou" -

As a promoter of San Shou since 1995, you can get one million dollars per occurance liability insurance for $600. I guess $600 is too much for them to spend on San Shou.

- "Then there is the expense of the medical crew, a doctor to do the exams and weigh in" -

A few more hundred dollars. Oh lord, we might cut into the profit margin by about $400 now. Clearly, no reason to offer San Shou

The "san shou folks" usually judge and referee the entire day, not to mention bringing all the athletes. The first San Diego event got 4 majro teams supporting it, only to have San Shou dumped the next year. And you wonder why in 2002 you got less support?

Sorry, I know it annoys you guys when people link the "USA WKF board" events and the "new" US Wushu Union, but that's the history and that's the facts. It's the same people, ie Jeff Bolt and Nick Gracenin. And like it or not, the San Shou people actually support you because of Jeff Bolt. We like him very much and we are very loyal to him. Otherwise, why would we follow USWU?

USWU's "san shou official" Chad didn't say "no, there IS san shou competition" did he? Is San Shou on the nationals page somewhere I didn't notice? I put up my question and for three days no response.

- "several meetings where the Sanshou people came in" -

WHAT MEETINGS? Who was there? I have the LARGEST San Shou team in the US right now, and I was never even invited. So what meeting and who was there?

[GLW]

" Please don't tell us that $9,000 is small revenue."

It IS small revenue. If you have an event with 150 Sanshou competitors, you have somewhere between 600 and 800 Taolu. The Taolu competitors START at $60 and end up with the average paid amount being more like $80 or $90. ($48,000) So, they often pay 1/3 MORE per person and then there are 4 to 5 times MORE of them.

While I am NOT saying that this is right....personally, if I were to be the guy putting up the bucks and planning the event, I would choose a less fancy place and get more space and pull in Taolu and Sanshou...but I am NOT the guy doing it...too much work for too little money for my tastes.... I CAN understand the dollars and cents approach that many take with it. Don't make it right, but there IS a reason - weak as it may be.


"And even if it was, it is no excuse not to offer a competition when you CLAIM to represent the entire community."

On THAT I DO AGREE with you. However, the Sanshou community has not stepped up to do more of the work and been more vocal until AFTER 1999 when all he11 broke loose. Even then, during organizing and judges meetings I sat in on at those times, the Sanshou folks often did NOT speak up. Activism is needed. I agree that if the USWU is to be what its charter says it is to be, they need to build some bridges. Similarly, the Sanshou folks need to meet them half way. Neither side is without problems.


$600. $400 ...and you forgot the ambulance and paramedics. There are also expenses for equipment, transfer of the Lei Tai which runs considerably more than the cost for the Modern Wushu's carpet. Add it all up and you still end up with around $1500 to 2000 more in cost for holding it. The area required for the stage also puts you into some problems in regards to where you can hold the event. For example, San Antonio was suggested for an event. Sanshou made the folks in San Antonio shy away. They had insurance concerns - liability for a convention center. The space requirements for Taolu for a national level event is large. Then you have to ad about 25% to 30% more space for Sanshou. The number of sites that can accommodate this amount of room is limited. This limit is one of the reasons that Jimmy Wong's event moved from Plano to Arlington. Now he is adding Sanshou...since the Arlington Convention Center has enough room to do it.


"The "san shou folks" usually judge and referee the entire day"

And your point is...? When I show up to work, I start when the event starts and go until they quit handing me folders to run. Typically, this means I work 12 to 16 hours on the first day and anywhere from 4 to 12 hours the second. The only reason the second may be shorter is because I finished the events. If there are more folders, I keep going.


"And you wonder why in 2002 you got less support?"

Actually, in 2001, one of the key coaches had told a contingent to stay away. This was heard at the event when another coach was talking to them and they did not notice other people being around....and this was a coach that had signed on to promote the event. This left a really bad taste in several folks mouths.

As for Florida's 2002 event...I was NOT there and can't speak about what did or did not happen.

I do know that there needs to be a lot of work to bring things together.

"the San Shou people actually support you because of Jeff Bolt. We like him very much and we are very loyal to him"

We do agree here. Having been working with Jeff on all of this long before anyone heard of a Chinese Martial Arts Only event and working on the first event that had Sanshou, I KNOW that he puts a lot on the line. However, there are a few of the Sanshou folks that seem to play both ends against the middle...but don't get openly caught.


"I put up my question and for three days no response. "

I would also like to see a response there. However, the wording of your post could have been better. For a first post on the subject, you came off as attacking instead of inquiring.

"WHAT MEETINGS? Who was there? I have the LARGEST San Shou team in the US right now, and I was never even invited. So what meeting and who was there?"

San Deigo, 2000 and 2001 come to mind. The real one was the 2000 meeting. Although, I can tell you that I was disappointed at the overall level of commitment ALL of the big names showed to moving forward. However, we left the meeting with a verbal agreement to all work on it. Then, 6 weeks later, ALL of the Sanshou folks that had been at that meeting had stepped out via e-mail. While this could have been a USAWKF - Goh vs. Bolt thing, it was KNOWN in San Diego that the group was in the Bolt camp. Better to say nothing than to back out. THAT meeting was, if memory serves, Sunday...and I had folks rework their schedule so I could attend.

To their defense, however, there were a couple of the Taolu competitors that came in. They ALSO agreed to work to improve things...and then backed out because "I am still competing and I don't want to upset anyone that may end up judging me..." WELLL....if that is a concern, they shouldn't have agreed to do work in the first place....I mean, who CAN'T see that potential problem from the beginning.

[neit]

in my opinion they should remove tkd and replace it with sanshou/shootboxing . if you think about it having such a specific m.a. style in the olympics is pretty stupid. with sanshou, fighters of many styles and cultural backgrounds would have a chance. it would also be much more exciting.

[lkfmdc]

In Florida in 2002, there were not 600 to 800 taolu folks. So if USWU wants to talk as if they are a new organization with only one event, then their ONLY event had a ratio closer of 1:3 of sanshou:taolu.... of course, if they drop San Shou this year, they will effectively become a taolu only organization. Maybe it's their bad luck to be dropping San Shou this year at this time, but we as a community are quite fed up with a lot of the crap and this just added to everyone's collective gasp

Throwing events is expensive, I ran the largest event in NY for a few years. But if you want to be an organization, you have to take responsibility for the costs.

But, and I really MUST note this, in 2000 and again in 2002 we told people that a cheaper, easier way to do san shou would be to rent a boxing ring at around $500. We do a lot of san shou in boxing rings since 1999. The organizers of the event, NOT the San Shou folks, said they liked the asthetic of the Lei Tai. You can't have it both ways. If you want a Lei Tai, build a Lei Tai, don't then ***** about it.

RE San Antonio, ignorance is no excuse, there are tons of ignorant people. San Shou has had no major injury in the US. Frankly, I have seen more blood and mayhem at the point sparring. we are conditioned full contact athletes who take what we do seriously. I've been in this sport since 1994 and never seen it become an issue

Since there was no San Shou in 2001, how could a "key coach" have told a contingent to stay away? I know three major teams that were planning on going in 2001 only to find out it was not offered at second San Diego event. After that, there was a lot of sour grapes which effected people showing up in 2002

I was in San Diego in 2000. I had the largest team there at the time and was not invited to any meeting. I didn't go in 2001 because there was no San Shou. I dont know who is doing the inviting to these meetings, but its pretty funny that major team coaches aren't even aware of them?

I can sort of suspect who you think are "big names" but the funny part is, those guys don't have any athletes! Fancy titles don't really mean a lot in San Shou, if you don't have athletes. The largest programs are NY, Boston and San Jose. I am sure 2 of those 3 didn't attend any meeting. So you already show other problems, you want to talk to the "san shou folks" but you (or the organization rather) probably talked and invited the wrong people

[Taomonkey]

who's that directed to?

[Mutant]

GLW & lkfmdc;
Hello. While I'm not fully aware of all the politics going on between the coaches, organizers, promoters, I can honestly say that as a competitor on both sides over the years in traditional forms and now sanshou, I havent felt or witnessed anything but mutual respect and interest. sure sometimes theres a few jokes but nothing serious.

And in the last several san shou events iv'e been at, me and several other figters have stayed after the events and helped break down and load folding mats and equiptment, and at the nationals last year in florida, several of us helped break down the lei tei and load it into the tractor trailer truck outside. Everyone on both sides was working together friendly and appreciative.

Just some observations from my perspective. I hope that both sports continue to grow and be promoted and eventually become part of the olympics.

[GLW]

Well, that means that at least we are keeping the politics and garbage away from the competitors. That is a GOOD thing.

In 2000, the coach that told folks to stay away DID come, DID work, and DID have folks there. That person DID, however, tell others NOT to show up. That was where the duplicity came in.

The 2003 event...again, I did NOT attend that one and know little about it.

As for the other options with the stage and such, I have never been a great proponent of spending money to be fancy.

I HAVE always pointed out that the things that everyone remembers about ANY competition are:

(1) Did it start on time
(2) Did it stick to some kind of a schedule
(3) Did it end at a reasonable time
(4) Did the judging and officiating come off as fair.

The rest...the hotels, the convention center, etc... are ALL window dressing if these first 4 are NOT good answers.

One thing about the USWU you have to understand: the Sanshou folks have NOT really stepped up to take any role with it.

Personally, I think that there SHOULD be a Sanshou person at least as a delegate and preferably as a delegate and one as an advisor.

I can understand small regional events not having Sanshou.

I CAN'T understand them not having it at a national event UNLESS the major Sanshou players and coaches indicate that they will not come.

I don't think this is the case....yet...but there is work to be done here.

The 2000 meetings were disappointing at best. There were a lot of big name people...but there were petty jealousies and hidden agendas galore.

In my case, I attended to : (1) Help out, (2) have a brief vacation in Ca. (3) to attend the meetings to see if some things could start happening to improve things again.

I did 1 and 2. Item 3 was ruined by the other junk that happened.

From what I have seen, either Sanshou needs to get involved with the rest of the CMA folks or make a complete break and do their own thing 100%.

If they do their own thing, they have to figure out how to do their own events...and if they have forms, then INVITE the other bodies to run or sanction those parts of their events...sort of the shoe being on the other foot.

If they do this, however, they still have to deal with the IWuF lumping things together - for international AND for possible Olympic futures.

In the US, it is SO screwed up due to the last 6 years (the rift in USAWKF started way before 1999), things would probably be better if it was all dismantled and started from scratch.

USWU has tired to do this, but the association to the USAWKF - even though this is a perception and NOT a reality - may be too strong to succeed.

On an aside, if you were to slide around for about 15 or more years in the background of these things, the amount of dirty pool and backstabbing that you can see...and the dirt people carry around gets to be truly amazing. Professionalism means you don't name names, but it DOES make it hard to trust some folks because you KNOW that some would sell their own children to get a bit of prestige or profit.

[Brad]

WHAT MEETINGS? Who was there? I have the LARGEST San Shou team in the US right now, and I was never even invited. So what meeting and who was there?
There was an open meeting at 2002 nationals that I attended, if that's what you're talking about
:confused:

[lkfmdc]

GLW, if it isn't too much trouble, can you email me privately at davidross@nykkgym.com, some stuff I don't want to talk about here right now

[guohuen]

Imagine your an Olympic athelete in ancient times and people show up to the games and perform syncronized swimming and modern wushu. Thank you. Have a nice day.

[lkfmdc]

original Olympic events;

boxing, wrestling, Pankration, archery, javelin toss, shot put, marathon

vs contemporary Olympic events;

rythmic gmnastics, ice skating, ball room dancing.....

Greeks must be turning over in their GRAVES

[guohuen]

:D :D :D How long before tiddlywinks becomes an event? Remember to bring your visa card because they don't take american express.
P.S. The TKD at the Seoul Olympics at least judging wise was one of the saddest things I've ever seen in sports.

[Mutant]

GLW; I don't think that the competitors are completely isolated from the politics though because it affect us all. Its hard not to notice how the tournaments have changed, from the huge national events of the 90s with thousands of competitors from many different countries, lots of vendors and seminars....and now the 'nationals' are smaller than many regional tournaments. Oh well, i hope people can work things out.

[GLW]

What was supposed to happen...

Back when the nationals were being formed, there was the idea that there should be regionals.

Then, the regions were supposed to grow in numbers of competitors from all skill levels. There were supposed to two regionals minimum per year in each of the regions. this did not mean that any region could NOT be a national and inetrnational level event if the organizer wanted to do that.

Then, the national event..and there was to be only one per year, was to be by qualification only. It was supposed to be the creme de la creme. There would then be big regionals, big international events, but a small yet prestigious national event.

While this was probably NOT a good thing, all of those involved agreed to it. Also, the structure of the USAWKF mandated that until a region had a certain number of paid members, there would be no voting for how the board ran things or in voting to elect board members.

Mind you , this is the USAWKF.

Strangely enough, the head of th organizaiton seemed to do everything in his power to make sure that the regions stayed weak.

You ended up with many competing national events and things started fracturing.

Realistically, there can only be a BIG event at most 3 or 4 times a year. These do best if the location and organizer can make sure that they have a minimum acceptable number of competitors regardless of how many folks from all over the country show up.

People have to pick and choose where they go to compete. Most competitors finances let them travel nationally maybe 2 times a year....hence places like SF, Orlando, etc...

And NO ONE was ever in love with Baltimore. Not much to do or see there...not exactly your vacation spot.

So, with the growth of the large events, people began to compete for the dollars and NOT coordinate with each other. Some went well and others plain lost money.

So, you ended up with things like Jimmy Wong's Taiji Legacy doing well, Orlando being a good spot...with different folks doing the organizing, and the others sort of disappearing.

Along with the onset of nasty economics, infighting, and the death of camelot...you then had the problems with the USAWKF board come to a head in 1999.

Now, we are back to where we were pre-1990. 10+ years down the tubes due to a lot of egos.